Best Anti-Estrogen while on cycle?

[SHADO]

Hi all,

I finished my first ever test e cycle a few months ago using only 250mg/week, i gained about 7kg and i was definitely stronger in the gym. I finished up with a PCT of Nolva only, had no side effects and im feeling completely normal now.

Im thinking of doing my 2nd cycle shortly but with 500mg/week of test e.

But this time i will be taking extra precautions due to the increased dose, i will again be using Nolva only for PCT.

What i am confused about is which anti-estrogen is best to use on cycle only if gyno etc starts to flare up, i was thinking of using letro, but have been told its fairly strong and not necessary.

I've heard Aromasin may be the next best for use on cycle for estrogen symptoms, can i please get some input from some of the experts here.

During my first cycle i did not use nor need anything on cycle, but knew i more than likely wouldnt need to as it was such a low dose.

btw stats are 26 years old, 91kg, training for about 5 years now.
Thanks in advance.

[lovbyts]

It's personal preference between liquidex and liquid Stane. Some people like one over the other and some due to price.

[SHADO]

It's personal preference between liquidex and liquid Stane. Some people like one over the other and some due to price.

Not overly fussed about price, just want to know which is more suitable for use on cycle if estrogen related sides flare up...

At the moment im steering towards the aromasin as its a stronger substance and doesnt hurt lipids as much, if i was to get symptoms during cycle i would feel more comfortable using something stronger to get rid of it asap.

Just wanting some opinions on which is best and why, also would appreciate a dosing schedule for both on how much to use should symptoms appear

[lovbyts]

Ive used both, both seemed to work but as other people have mentioned the aromasin seemed to also kick up the libido but that may be due to cutting down the E2. Personally I will stick to the aromasin/liquid stane also.

[gym_junki]

If you didn't get any sides from test at 250 there's a big chance your not going to get it from 500mg I would get an AI and keep it on hand just incase, I personally like a.dex but all what is listed above is more than enough. What's your body fat %? the reason I ask is the higher your body fat the more chances you have of developing gyno.

[SHADO]

If you didn't get any sides from test at 250 there's a big chance your not going to get it from 500mg I would get an AI and keep it on hand just incase, I personally like a.dex but all what is listed above is more than enough. What's your body fat %? the reason I ask is the higher your body fat the more chances you have of developing gyno.

So should I just go with the liquidex seeing as it's the cheaper of the two? I just want to know that the liquidex will be as effective as the aromasin at controlling any estrogen related sides that may flare up on cycle.

What should the liquidex be dosed at and for how long if symptoms flare up? Just need to know how much I should purchase.

[SHADO]

Ok I've made a decision that I'll be using adex eod throughout my cycle, I'm very paranoid at things like gyno flaring up, prefer to be safe than sorry.

Im thinking of using 0.5mg twice a week on the same days I pin for simplicity, I believe such a small won't hinder my gains at all and keep any estrogen related sides at bay.

Does this all sound good?

[chi]

if you develop gyno during cycle best thing to use is letrozole.

[im83931]

I wouldn't use Letro. I tried it once and my joints dried out so bad it hurt to do pushups. For me its way too harsh. Dose the adex by the half life. I believe its about 3 days.

[SHADO]

if you develop gyno during cycle best thing to use is letrozole.

But i believe if I run adex eod throughout my cycle I shouldn't develop gyno, correct?

[im83931]

You shouldn't, thats correct. But you will hinder gains since you do need some estrogen.

[SHADO]

I wouldn't use Letro. I tried it once and my joints dried out so bad it hurt to do pushups. For me its way too harsh. Dose the adex by the half life. I believe its about 3 days.

Twice a week probably wouldn't be enough would it, think I'll go with 3 times per week, say mon, wed, fri. This way I'll remember when to take it every week.

I believe the half life of adex is around 3 days.

[chuckt12345]

i would just get it in case you need it,, dont start off using it

[SHADO]

i would just get it in case you need it,, dont start off using it

Would it do any harm to use it through the whole cycle just eod?

[Lemonada8]

Im gyno prone, so i run nolva throughout my cycle and thats it

[SHADO]

If it won't cause any harm or hinder my gains I would like to use the adex a few times a week to keep estrogen at bay.

Otherwise I'll get the aromasin and just use it if anything flares up, if anything was to flare up I would like to use the Aromasin being the stronger of the two, and I believe the aroma doesn't have the estrogen rebound seen with the adex.

But again if it won't hinder me in any way I would like to use the adex throughout my cycle as a precaution, prefer to prevent it from happening in the first place than having to battle it if it comes up...

[SHADO]

Ok so i just placed an order for some liquid arimidex and nolva from the sponsors.

Will be using the adex 2-3 times a week unless some of the experts here can chime in and say it will hinder my gains, im led to believe that using it a few times a week at 0.5mg per dose wouldnt hinder my gains, and will actually keep me looking leaner. The Nolva will be used solely for PCT.

Again i dont think im gyno prone but am doing this as a precaution...

[Lxi89]

Where can get letro?

[Dannyboy51577]

Listen to what gym junki and chuckt are saying. First off with 500/wk test only theres a good chance u may not be outta whack with you e2 and by taking something to lower your levels, or taking too much or too often, you could easily end up being too low. And with test e theres also no need to start from day 1. I am lucky and have very little or no effects of high e. Started at 500mg/wk prop, and now at 700mg/wk. I keep things on hand, sure, but dont go adding things in that i dont know ill need, til i know i need them because the effects of high e and low e are very similar, and you can end up with problems and chasing your tail not knowing if it ls high or low, or whats causing it. If you didnt have an issue at 250mg/wk, dont start complicating it. Test e wont even build in your system to a decent enough level for a few wks either way. So your test levels will still be fairly low the first couple wks and not causing much conversion, and you will be adding an ai right off the bat. Could be asking for trouble.

Anyway, if you are talking about the place i think you are, the liquidex is definitely very effective-in my opinion more effective than a pill because it seems to me to absorb and work quicker.

[cousinmuscles]

Listen to what gym junki and chuckt are saying. First off with 500/wk test only theres a good chance u may not be outta whack with you e2 and by taking something to lower your levels, or taking too much or too often, you could easily end up being too low. And with test e theres also no need to start from day 1. I am lucky and have very little or no effects of high e. Started at 500mg/wk prop, and now at 700mg/wk. I keep things on hand, sure, but dont go adding things in that i dont know ill need, til i know i need them because the effects of high e and low e are very similar, and you can end up with problems and chasing your tail not knowing if it ls high or low, or whats causing it. If you didnt have an issue at 250mg/wk, dont start complicating it. Test e wont even build in your system to a decent enough level for a few wks either way. So your test levels will still be fairly low the first couple wks and not causing much conversion, and you will be adding an ai right off the bat. Could be asking for trouble.

Anyway, if you are talking about the place i think you are, the liquidex is definitely very effective-in my opinion more effective than a pill because it seems to me to absorb and work quicker.

What were your serum test levels from your blood work on test prop 500mg?

[Dannyboy51577]

Cous, i actually did bloods twice. First came back at around 2300 if i remember correct- it was lower half of 2000's. I actually started and was pinning 100 eod, then switched to 150( closer to 160ish)- (always added 1/10th to each pin) eod about a week, so i hoped it was just an adjustment period and i pulled too soon. Pulled again and came back 3200 range. I get a little anal about bw. I incr to 700/wk, so ill be pullin again in prob 2 or 3 wks

[Dannyboy51577]

I was wrong-i pulled same way i did previously- on pin day before i pinned. I was gonna pull on in between day but wanted apples for apples comparison.

[The Deadlifting Dog]

And what were your E2 results?

[Dannyboy51577]

Id have to check the first pull to be sure but it was mod-upper 30's, maybe 36 or 37pg/ml if i remember correctly, 2nd pull was 40pg/ml range. I have to pull the ppwk for exact, but right in that range. But free estradiol was only .6 pg/ml, which could be the reason i dont exhibit symptoms. Not sire where its going, maybe out the pooper, but its not hanging around. Im thinking i may need to add in an ai in the future. Once i get bw pulled again ill see. I dont get symptoms, but just seem to be holding some water, so could be e2 or could just be the deca. Gonna pull again in maybe 2 or 3 wks and see and adjust from there

[Ashop]

I think small amounts of an AI is best (ARIMIDEX,LETROZOLE,AROMASIN) during most AAS cycles.

[ScotchGuard02]

Test at 500mg/wk? You have a really good chance you'll get gyno if you don't run an AI. I ran adex @ .25mg every 3rd day on my cycle but I got a hint of gyno so upped it to every day for a week and then backed off to every other day. There are guys that run no AI until they feel gyno coming on and then they run letro. I don't like to put bounce my E2 like that. I know that excessive adex can be an insulin agonist. But we're talking about just enough adex to control E2 and only for 12 weeks. I would rather keep my E2 under control, avoid gyno, over get gyno and then react. My .02

[Dannyboy51577]

And im sure you are right for most Scotch, just doesnt affect me in the same way. E2 wasnt extremely elevated at 500/wk, only hit about 40 and been on 700/wk prop without ai for about 3 wks or so now and no problems. Gonna keep current protocol until i get bloods pulled again in couple wks and see how things look.

[marcus300]

I think small amounts of an AI is best (ARIMIDEX,LETROZOLE,AROMASIN) during most AAS cycles.

Test at 500mg/wk? You have a really good chance you'll get gyno if you don't run an AI. I ran adex @ .25mg every 3rd day on my cycle but I got a hint of gyno so upped it to every day for a week and then backed off to every other day. There are guys that run no AI until they feel gyno coming on and then they run letro. I don't like to put bounce my E2 like that. I know that excessive adex can be an insulin agonist. But we're talking about just enough adex to control E2 and only for 12 weeks. I would rather keep my E2 under control, avoid gyno, over get gyno and then react. My .02

Agreed ^^^ i much prefer taking a bit because i feel prevention is better than the cure and i also know my body well enough that it grows better when my E is stable and under control.

[cousinmuscles]

I know that excessive adex can be an insulin agonist.

I think that's incorrect there was a recent thread on a study done with arimidex. Insulin resistance occurred only when estrogen receptors were downregulated but there was no concomitant increase in aromatase activity. Since arimidex doesn't raise LH and test levels it occurred because the resulting low aromatase activity made so that estrogen in target tissues was low. With letrozole they found it increased testosterone production just enough so that the aromatase activity increased and target tissues got enough to even improve insulin sensitivity. Check post #11 and #12 here: https://forums.steroid.com/anabolic-...esistance.html
With 500mg test you can be guaranteed there will be plenty of aromatase activity

[Dannyboy51577]

So cous, am i understanding correct based on this info- if you were to administer adex without any increase in test, or in essence take too kuch adex for the amount of test, it would decrease the aromatase activity, and decrease the amount of estrogen in the muscle tissue to a point that would promote i sulin resistance.

Provided there is enough test/adex ratio to promote some or adequate aromatase activity, and a sufficient amount of estrogen in the muscle tissue, insulin resistance is eliminated and insulin sensitivity is improved
?

[Dannyboy51577]

And i know you are right Marcus- about e2 being stable and under control. And for whatever reason, i still have not figured out, my e2 levels have stayed stable and so far under control without an ai. I have had bloods pulled 3 times now- twice after i began my protocol, and once by my doc prior to starting anything, and they always stay within range. Now i do believe that i will have to add in some adex now that im at 700mg/wk, but i dont know that for sure as of now. I will add it in if i get my next bloods back and its any higher that it was on 500, which it should be. But as of this moment, i feel fantastic, libido is the best its been in a long time, gains have been really good, production at the gym has been increasing steadily from one wk to the next, so i cant really complain. I am on 500mg/wk deca also, and so far the combo is doing its thing. And if its not broke im not looking to start tinkering with it just yet. Thats not to say i wont adjust protocol after my next bw pull, but til then i dont wanna screw with what im getting out of it

[cousinmuscles]

So cous, am i understanding correct based on this info- if you were to administer adex without any increase in test, or in essence take too kuch adex for the amount of test, it would decrease the aromatase activity, and decrease the amount of estrogen in the muscle tissue to a point that would promote i sulin resistance.

Provided there is enough test/adex ratio to promote some or adequate aromatase activity, and a sufficient amount of estrogen in the muscle tissue, insulin resistance is eliminated and insulin sensitivity is improved
?

According to that study, inhibiting aromatization with letrozole improved insulin sensitivity with just a 100% increase in natural test production. Though it still suppressed serum e2 as much as 1mg arimidex ED. So what's that 160-200mg test E per week tops? Just guessing. But if you manage to suppress e2 so low you'll get other sides... I think this would be better to ask the researchers, but why even bother you'll never stay so low on estrogen anyway.

[cousinmuscles]

And i know you are right Marcus- about e2 being stable and under control. And for whatever reason, i still have not figured out, my e2 levels have stayed stable and so far under control without an ai. I have had bloods pulled 3 times now- twice after i began my protocol, and once by my doc prior to starting anything, and they always stay within range. Now i do believe that i will have to add in some adex now that im at 700mg/wk, but i dont know that for sure as of now. I will add it in if i get my next bloods back and its any higher that it was on 500, which it should be. But as of this moment, i feel fantastic, libido is the best its been in a long time, gains have been really good, production at the gym has been increasing steadily from one wk to the next, so i cant really complain. I am on 500mg/wk deca also, and so far the combo is doing its thing. And if its not broke im not looking to start tinkering with it just yet. Thats not to say i wont adjust protocol after my next bw pull, but til then i dont wanna screw with what im getting out of it

Just another guess btw 500 test prop is close to 600 test E in pure testosterone, your bloods should have been closer to 4000. But have to time the pinning and not measure when you're at trough levels.

[Dannyboy51577]

Ok i think i understand. I remember reading that info a while back. Basically if e2 levels are way too low, it inhibited aromatase activity and lead to insulin resistance. But by adding test, aromatase resumed, added enough estrogen to muscle tissue, and insulin resistance ceased- right? Im trying to read and work, so wanna make sure im gettin the jist

[cousinmuscles]

Ok i think i understand. I remember reading that info a while back. Basically if e2 levels are way too low, it inhibited aromatase activity and lead to insulin resistance. But by adding test, aromatase resumed, added enough estrogen to muscle tissue, and insulin resistance ceased- right? Im trying to read and work, so wanna make sure im gettin the jist

https://forums.steroid.com/anabolic-...ml#post7364899

Basically, you have to try really hard to get insulin resistance on cycle due to arimidex... You'll feel the low E2 symptoms before that. Maybe you'll have to inhibit all aromatize enzymes so the testosterone has no possibility of aromatazing. Question is why would you even try lol

[Dannyboy51577]

Right, got it. Because this trial was with men who were not administering exogenous test, so the letro was being taken against their natural test levels. That would be why aromatization would almost all but cease. Taking ai while not on cycle will prob do that to ya.

Good info now that ive had a chance to take the time and read through it.

There is another study mentioned-by wickman- that had pubertal boys treated with testosterone and placebo vs. testosterone and letro- and he says according to findings, that insulin levels dropped in the group that received the letro, and attributes it to improved insulin sensitivity. Igf1 levels were also lower when treated with letro. Interesting

[Lemonada8]

Wow, ressurection of a dead thread ...