Darwinism vs creationism

[Dpyle]

im abut to get off work and have to drive home. ur questions are good and i will try to answer them as best i can

i think the assumption is pharaoh goes to hell. he is not a believer. God knew what he was gonna do before he did it. God is complicated man. im not gonna pretend to be able to understand everything or even a fair amount about Him. if we could would he really be God?? his ways are higher than ours>>

8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,"
declares the Lord.
9 "As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

some of it would be like trying to explain the concept of theoretical physics to an ant.. (for lack of a good analogy)..

That's really the only part that I get hung up on when it comes to religion. If God is all knowing and knows the fate of everyone then there is no free will of man. This god has created some men destined for eternal damnation and it can not be changed.

[Times Roman]

That's really the only part that I get hung up on when it comes to religion. If God is all knowing and knows the fate of everyone then there is no free will of man. This god has created some men destined for eternal damnation and it can not be changed.

sounds like something a defense attorney would say!?

[Times Roman]

Hmmm. so science hasn't dismissed christainity??? Or has science just not been able to disprove it?

If Christianity is not correct, then why has science been so slow to disprove it? is that the rub of the question?

let's look at that another way.

It's pretty easy for me to prove there are TREES on this planet, right? All you have to do is find one and there is your proof.

Now if you were to ask me to prove that there aren't any 19 legged purple spiders, I could spend a hundred lifetimes looking for them, and still not be able to satisfactorily prove they do not exist.

It is easy to prove something exists by finding it.

You cannot prove something doesn't exist, because that only means you haven't looked hard enough, right?

[warmouth]

That's really the only part that I get hung up on when it comes to religion. If God is all knowing and knows the fate of everyone then there is no free will of man. This god has created some men destined for eternal damnation and it can not be changed.

From my point of view(ID), man is free in his ability to choose, but he in incapable of chosing what is godly, holy, good. He can do what is good, but from the standpoint of the Bible, his heart is evil and his will is damnation. Only God can change his will to accept the holiness offered, as this is impossible to do this on his own. Analogy: You can teach a dog to do tricks. They can do some pretty amazing things(lay down, roll over, shake,fetch a beer, talk <sort of lol), but at the end of the day he is still a dog. He will still sniff a crotch, still eat his own crap, pee on a tire, etc. He is a dog and even though he knows things to do that it pleasing to others, it is his nature to be a dog.
That was my analogy. Sorry if it sucked, lol. But mans nature, according to the Bible, is to be evil because this is our nature. "from mothers womb I was born into iniquity". It all goes back to Adam and Eve. They were perfect and were truly free to choose holiness or evil. They disobeyed God and were from then on out in need of a "savior" to abolish the curse that they brought upon themselves. When God gives the gift of true knowledge (what is known by believers as taught by the Bible), we can then say we are truly free. It is still nature to do evil, but our spririt is changed and the things we used to desire are not what we still desire. Even though we still "eat crap and sniff crothch" as is our nature.
TR brought up a good point in us not being able to fully understand or be confident that we know what is true. This is why the Bible is so important to me. It has everything laid out from the known beginning to end. Sure, there is alot that is hard to understand and think is silly, but it is no more sill to me than the theory of a "big bang" to where something literally came from nothing. There had to be a means to the "dense egg" that brough about all of the universe is what I think. And in time, why did the bang happen when it did? If the egg has always existed for eternity past, then it would have never "banged". I am in agreement that the big bang is hard to believe, as many scientists and researches have abandoned this theory and are currently inventing another. It just doesnt add up that the explosion happened, if the egg has always been from eternity past. Im my personal opinion, if it had always existed, it would have never came to "explode" because time would not have existed. <Not sure if that makes sense...

[--->>405<<---]

405, I'm glad you found a better way for yourself. I think you should open your own Q&A lounge thread. This is obviously something you believe in and are passionate about and I'm willing to bet a lot of people would have questions for you. I remember a while back a Muslim member opened such a thread and shed a lot of light on something a lot of us didn't know much about.

Totally off topic, but for my own curiosity, would you say you belong to a particular denomination?

hey ernst i appreciate ur input! i do not belong to a particular denomination no. i just go to a bible believing church. i dont really get into the denomination thing. we people when we get involved with things IMO tend to mess them up. it is our nature. division is created, motives can be questionable, and people can and do try to find ways to take advantage of other people and situations.

a person mentioned earlier about churches and wanting money. i would like to clarify this. while i admit there have been and currently are many people who use God as a means to make money (as a priority) churches in general take tithes and offerings because the church has to have money to function. it also does ministry such as mission trips, evangelism, has a staff and building and bills it has to pay.

my church has about 3500 members. it takes a lot of people to run a church of this size and it takes a lot of money! where do we get our money? from the members..

before i became a christian i used to be turned off by them taking a collection at the end of each service until i understood they dont just have money. it has to come from somewhere..

[warmouth]

If Christianity is not correct, then why has science been so slow to disprove it? is that the rub of the question?

let's look at that another way.

It's pretty easy for me to prove there are TREES on this planet, right? All you have to do is find one and there is your proof.

Now if you were to ask me to prove that there aren't any 19 legged purple spiders, I could spend a hundred lifetimes looking for them, and still not be able to satisfactorily prove they do not exist.

It is easy to prove something exists by finding it.

You cannot prove something doesn't exist, because that only means you haven't looked hard enough, right?

Proof does come by finding it, that is correct. There is absolutley no reason to have faith in something if you can see it, feel it, smell it, etc. Much like creationism and evolution. Neither can be proven by secular means, yet both require faith to believe because there is absolutely no reason to believe either, other than take somthing or someones word for it. Evolution has a history of a hundred or so years, creationism has a history of mankinds existance. I dont think we have gotten smarter in the last 100 years. Please do not mistake that for the rise of technology. Technology makes sense of things that were once misunderstood or not known. I do not think that believing in an intellegent design makes one stupid or dumb, or cavemanish in thought, but it does make sense of alot of things that are hard to explain. Just because something is far fetched or hard to explain, doesnt mean we have to have physical proof for it to be true. Something can be 100% true even if one chooses not to believe it (ID or Evo).

[Times Roman]

there was a tithing scam running at my buddies church years ago. The church would encourage people to tithe based on their faith that god would find the money for them to be able tto do this. The more faith, then with a kind of de facto logic, then the bigger the tithe. The church wouuld then put peoples faith pledges on the bulletin board, and ridicule members who pledged meagerly because they obviously didn't have enough faith that god would provide. So it created a spirit of competition, and families would do their best to keep up financially with thier faith. In reality, many families were bullied into pledging more than they should, and ended up hurting the family since they really didn't have the money to give the church in the first place.

This is a prime example of how the institution of religion compromises the faith of religion

[Times Roman]

Proof does come by finding it, that is correct. There is absolutley no reason to have faith in something if you can see it, feel it, smell it, etc. Much like creationism and evolution. Neither can be proven by secular means, yet both require faith to believe because there is absolutely no reason to believe either, other than take somthing or someones word for it. Evolution has a history of a hundred or so years, creationism has a history of mankinds existance. I dont think we have gotten smarter in the last 100 years. Please do not mistake that for the rise of technology. Technology makes sense of things that were once misunderstood or not known. I do not think that believing in an intellegent design makes one stupid or dumb, or cavemanish in thought, but it does make sense of alot of things that are hard to explain. Just because something is far fetched or hard to explain, doesnt mean we have to have physical proof for it to be true. Something can be 100% true even if one chooses not to believe it (ID or Evo).

Knowledge is compounded and accumulated.
So in fact, we HAVE become smarter!

I think what you meant to say is we are struggling to become "Wiser"?

If this is what you meant, then i agree.

Technology is the easy part. The ethical implications of this technology? not so easy!

[cherrydrpepper]

here i am.. 47months later..

so no.. my choice was anything but arbitrary. i think u will find as i have if u talk to enuff christians alot of em came to their faith thru pain.. not parents..

This actually put tears in my eyes. I have a lot of respect for you 405 and I think I understand you better now. You are passionate because to turn away from your beliefs will lead to places dark beyond most peoples imagination.

[JohnnyVegas]

That's really the only part that I get hung up on when it comes to religion. If God is all knowing and knows the fate of everyone then there is no free will of man. This god has created some men destined for eternal damnation and it can not be changed.

Maybe it is because God exists across all time, so it is easy for him to know everything as if looking back through time at the past. It isn't predetermined but God can still know by looking at all the things a person did during their lifetime.

If Christianity is not correct, then why has science been so slow to disprove it? is that the rub of the question?

I think science focuses on discovering. Scientists have disproven things wrong in the bible (such as the examples in my post on the previous page), but there probably isn't much research money to be made in specifically trying to disprove religion. Plus, like you said, you cannot prove something doesn't exist.

Science does continuously prove that details of the bible are not true, such as archeologists discovering that Jewish slaves were not present at the building of the Egyptian pyramids which blows up the story of Moses.

[JohnnyVegas]

there was a tithing scam running at my buddies church years ago. The church would encourage people to tithe based on their faith that god would find the money for them to be able tto do this. The more faith, then with a kind of de facto logic, then the bigger the tithe. The church wouuld then put peoples faith pledges on the bulletin board, and ridicule members who pledged meagerly because they obviously didn't have enough faith that god would provide. So it created a spirit of competition, and families would do their best to keep up financially with thier faith. In reality, many families were bullied into pledging more than they should, and ended up hurting the family since they really didn't have the money to give the church in the first place.

This is a prime example of how the institution of religion compromises the faith of religion

Give, and it will be returned ten fold!!!!

[--->>405<<---]

That's really the only part that I get hung up on when it comes to religion. If God is all knowing and knows the fate of everyone then there is no free will of man. This god has created some men destined for eternal damnation and it can not be changed.

dpyle from ur line of questioning i would guess this topic is not new to u as of today? this is a good example of doctrine that can be the subject of hot debate within the christian community.

i have been thru this in the beginning and the argument is somewhat circular just like the topic were discussing in this thread. predestination is in the bible theres no disputing it.

omniscience is an attribute of God theres no disputing that either. (assuming u believe in God and the bible )

i remember when i was first confronted with this topic. u shouldve seen the division it caused between friends. heated arguments.

u have 5point calvinists. 3 point calvinists, people who dont believe it at all. i dont know the answer as to where Gods sovereignty stops and our free will starts. i do know that without christ i am responsible for my sins. i also know that God is perfect in every way, he is the supreme judge. in light of the scripture i posted above where God says his ways are higher than ours i have to rest in my faith that HE knows the answer to these questions and for some reason deems it unimportant that i conclusively know.

im ok with that.. after all what choice do i have? but it will be one of probably a thousand questions i will have for him when i do see him!

we could quote paul from romans chapter 9 where this theology is derived:
19 Well then, you might say, “Why does God blame people for not responding? Haven’t they simply done what he makes them do?”

20 No, don’t say that. Who are you, a mere human being, to argue with God? Should the thing that was created say to the one who created it, “Why have you made me like this?”

i would also like to note according to my pastor (a very gifted, well educated man) this chapter is an analogy (for lack of a better term) of how God chose Israel to be the nation from which the messiah would come. it is not reflective of individual humanity.

as a believer i am forced to submit myself as infinitely inferior to God. this is a circumstance i would expect the unbeliever to have a problem with. pride can get in the way of a lot of things. however, God is God. i am me. inferior.. period. would u really want to worship a being u didnt feel compelled to submit to?

[--->>405<<---]

to me this sums up this topic: 1 corinthians 1:18-31

18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”[c]
20 Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

26 Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31 Therefore, as it is written: “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.”

[JohnnyVegas]

dpyle from ur line of questioning i would guess this topic is not new to u as of today? this is a good example of doctrine that can be the subject of hot debate within the christian community.

i have been thru this in the beginning and the argument is somewhat circular just like the topic were discussing in this thread. predestination is in the bible theres no disputing it.

omniscience is an attribute of God theres no disputing that either. (assuming u believe in God and the bible )

i remember when i was first confronted with this topic. u shouldve seen the division it caused between friends. heated arguments.

u have 5point calvinists. 3 point calvinists, people who dont believe it at all. i dont know the answer as to where Gods sovereignty stops and our free will starts. i do know that without christ i am responsible for my sins. i also know that God is perfect in every way, he is the supreme judge. in light of the scripture i posted above where God says his ways are higher than ours i have to rest in my faith that HE knows the answer to these questions and for some reason deems it unimportant that i conclusively know.

im ok with that.. after all what choice do i have? but it will be one of probably a thousand questions i will have for him when i do see him!

we could quote paul from romans chapter 9 where this theology is derived:
19 Well then, you might say, “Why does God blame people for not responding? Haven’t they simply done what he makes them do?”

20 No, don’t say that. Who are you, a mere human being, to argue with God? Should the thing that was created say to the one who created it, “Why have you made me like this?”

i would also like to note according to my pastor (a very gifted, well educated man) this chapter is an analogy (for lack of a better term) of how God chose Israel to be the nation from which the messiah would come. it is not reflective of individual humanity.

as a believer i am forced to submit myself as infinitely inferior to God. this is a circumstance i would expect the unbeliever to have a problem with. pride can get in the way of a lot of things. however, God is God. i am me. inferior.. period. would u really want to worship a being u didnt feel compelled to submit to?

I cannot find you to be anything but insanely likable. I really enjoy talking with people that have a passion for something.

[Dpyle]

dpyle from ur line of questioning i would guess this topic is not new to u as of today? this is a good example of doctrine that can be the subject of hot debate within the christian community.

i have been thru this in the beginning and the argument is somewhat circular just like the topic were discussing in this thread. predestination is in the bible theres no disputing it.

omniscience is an attribute of God theres no disputing that either. (assuming u believe in God and the bible )

i remember when i was first confronted with this topic. u shouldve seen the division it caused between friends. heated arguments.

u have 5point calvinists. 3 point calvinists, people who dont believe it at all. i dont know the answer as to where Gods sovereignty stops and our free will starts. i do know that without christ i am responsible for my sins. i also know that God is perfect in every way, he is the supreme judge. in light of the scripture i posted above where God says his ways are higher than ours i have to rest in my faith that HE knows the answer to these questions and for some reason deems it unimportant that i conclusively know.

im ok with that.. after all what choice do i have? but it will be one of probably a thousand questions i will have for him when i do see him!

we could quote paul from romans chapter 9 where this theology is derived:
19 Well then, you might say, “Why does God blame people for not responding? Haven’t they simply done what he makes them do?”

20 No, don’t say that. Who are you, a mere human being, to argue with God? Should the thing that was created say to the one who created it, “Why have you made me like this?”

i would also like to note according to my pastor (a very gifted, well educated man) this chapter is an analogy (for lack of a better term) of how God chose Israel to be the nation from which the messiah would come. it is not reflective of individual humanity.

as a believer i am forced to submit myself as infinitely inferior to God. this is a circumstance i would expect the unbeliever to have a problem with. pride can get in the way of a lot of things. however, God is God. i am me. inferior.. period. would u really want to worship a being u didnt feel compelled to submit to?

Definitely not a new topic for me. I've done a lot of soul searching and pondering for years now questioning my disbelief. I also spent time as an anthropology major in college. I got to hold fossil remains from all the hominids from Australopithecus aferensis to homo sapien sapien and everything in between. Seeing pictures is nothing compared to holding them in your hands and being able to really examine them. Then line em up see the gradual changes that occurred over time. That alone makes it near impossible to deny evolution, for me anyway.

Plus as TR mentioned earlier with Constantine and the council of Nicea. It's fact that it happened and has been proven. So what's missing from the bible we know today. This would make the current bible an incomplete truth. Preventing anyone from knowing the whole truth that was contained within the original texts.

[Bryan2]

From my experience talking with those that do no believe in evolution I find a huge trend in which those have never actually studied it in any form.

To those that thing that the earth is less than 10000 years old how do you explain all of the evidence from so many different venues?

How do you explain dinosaur fossils?

How can we see light from galaxies that are billions of years old if the earth is less than 10000 years old?

How do you explain when we see new planets being formed and that all of them are in line with how long we believe the earth took to form none have formed in 6 days?

The age of erosion on the earth IE grand canyon

Radiometric and carbon dating methods

geomagnetic reversal of the earths poles which take 50-80 thousand years, there is evidence of about 180 reversals




The sheer amount of evidence for an old earth is overwhelming from all aspects

Biology
Astronomy
Chemistry
Archaeology
Anthropology
Meteorology


The thing I never understood with the bible is how come we are supposed to take some parts of it literally and some parts metaphorically? If you apply that maybe it is NOT 100% literal and the earth really is old is doesn't disprove God. You can still have a creator and an old earth. The bible has been revised and rewritten countless times. There is new understanding of it all the time as well. If it turns out that Genesis was supposed to be taken metaphorically instead of literally but God still created everything through evolution would it drastically alter your faith in anyway?

[--->>405<<---]

^^bryan i see where ur coming from. a lot of guys a lot smarter than me have asked these questions and studied out the answers. im not knowledgeable or smart enuff to be able to explain the answers but i have sat thru sermons my pastor gave where he answered some of these questions.

the answers are out there.

u have to let scripture interpret scripture. u can see a consistency of how the hebrew word for "day" was used throughout the bible in many difft ways such as "in the day of moses" versus "there was night and there was day" and u can see how different hebrew words for day were used in the broader more general sense versus in genesis the term used for day was literal.

[Times Roman]

You know what I believe?

I believe I'll have a beer before dinner!

There! Refute that!!!

[frank13]

i always believed that the Bible was suppose to be taken metaphorically(like a guide on how to live) and that doesn't diminish the value of it i think a lot of the people in the bible were real and should be celebrated because they stood up for what they believed in i think it actually takes away from them that the only reason there celebrated is because there the son of god/or god there could be a creator but to say some book literally knows who that is just doesn't make sense to me that said Darwinism is the only thing that make sense to me one thing about science is its right no matter how much u want it to be wrong

[--->>405<<---]

This actually put tears in my eyes. I have a lot of respect for you 405 and I think I understand you better now. You are passionate because to turn away from your beliefs will lead to places dark beyond most peoples imagination.

I cannot find you to be anything but insanely likable. I really enjoy talking with people that have a passion for something.

thx guys i appreciate it!

[Bryan2]

^^bryan i see where ur coming from. a lot of guys a lot smarter than me have asked these questions and studied out the answers. im not knowledgeable or smart enuff to be able to explain the answers but i have sat thru sermons my pastor gave where he answered some of these questions.

the answers are out there.

u have to let scripture interpret scripture. u can see a consistency of how the hebrew word for "day" was used throughout the bible in many difft ways such as "in the day of moses" versus "there was night and there was day" and u can see how different hebrew words for day were used in the broader more general sense versus in genesis the term used for day was literal.

But then in other places is states that a day to God is like a thousand years. Jesus taught to continually seek knowledge. I find it very frustrating that many christians do not try to seek answers to questions that they may have and just liken the response that God knows and works in mysterious ways. Im not saying that is the case with you I just tend to hear this response a lot when looking for questions that I have about God.

[Times Roman]

Question 1

Without getting technical, the overall dimensions of Noah's Arc are such that it would be impossible to house two of every kind of animal on the face of the earth.

Comments?

[--->>405<<---]

Question 1

Without getting technical, the overall dimensions of Noah's Arc are such that it would be impossible to house two of every kind of animal on the face of the earth.

Comments?

dont have one. havent looked into it but will and ill let u know hows that? u know TR its funny to think about i doubt in light of anything i say ur gonna say anything like: "hey u know what 405 what u just said makes so much sense i think ill become a christian now".. and likewise nothing u say is gonna cause me to say: "hey u know what TR ur rite noahs ark wasnt big enuff to house all the animals in pairs on the earth i think i will no longer believe in christ" LMAO..

[JohnnyVegas]

From my experience talking with those that do no believe in evolution I find a huge trend in which those have never actually studied it in any form.

To those that thing that the earth is less than 10000 years old how do you explain all of the evidence from so many different venues?

How do you explain dinosaur fossils?

How can we see light from galaxies that are billions of years old if the earth is less than 10000 years old?

How do you explain when we see new planets being formed and that all of them are in line with how long we believe the earth took to form none have formed in 6 days?

The age of erosion on the earth IE grand canyon

Radiometric and carbon dating methods

geomagnetic reversal of the earths poles which take 50-80 thousand years, there is evidence of about 180 reversals

How about you present your evidence rather than just challenging the other side? Explain why dinosaur fossils are absent from the biblical creation story because the men that wrote it were limited by their knowledge...pointing to the fact that Genesis was not "written by God" since He obviously would have known about them.

I fully support the items you have mentioned, and I am firmly in the "I love science" camp, but this thread has stayed very positive because people have posted their thoughts and not been condescending to the other participants.

[--->>405<<---]

But then in other places is states that a day to God is like a thousand years. Jesus taught to continually seek knowledge. I find it very frustrating that many christians do not try to seek answers to questions that they may have and just liken the response that God knows and works in mysterious ways. Im not saying that is the case with you I just tend to hear this response a lot when looking for questions that I have about God.

as u grow in faith u try to find answers. when some are not produced u learn to have faith man.. read post 173 if u havent. think about what its saying..

[Times Roman]

dont have one. havent looked into it but will and ill let u know hows that? u know TR its funny to think about i doubt in light of anything i say ur gonna say anything like: "hey u know what 405 what u just said makes so much sense i think ill become a christian now".. and likewise nothing u say is gonna cause me to say: "hey u know what TR ur rite noahs ark wasnt big enuff to house all the animals in pairs on the earth i think i will no longer believe in christ" LMAO..

I will say I was smiling and laughed when you said that.

I've said this all along, haven't I? =)

We are debating on two different planes that do not intersect, nor are they likely too. I'm on an analytical plane, and you on the emotional plane. Each is debating from a different side of the brain.

[Times Roman]

dont have one. havent looked into it but will and ill let u know hows that? u know TR its funny to think about i doubt in light of anything i say ur gonna say anything like: "hey u know what 405 what u just said makes so much sense i think ill become a christian now".. and likewise nothing u say is gonna cause me to say: "hey u know what TR ur rite noahs ark wasnt big enuff to house all the animals in pairs on the earth i think i will no longer believe in christ" LMAO..

but the debate DOES get real interesting when we do find ways to merge the two hemispheres of the brain. But for us to debate along these lines, each would have to concede that the possibilty of being wrong does exist. Not an easy thing to do.

I'll go first.

It is very possible you are right, and that there is a supreme being that is benevolent and will provide for us in an afterlife. To continue, it is very possible that the big bang is totally wrong.

And I am not being rhetorical. I do believe the above statement to be true within the realms of statistical probability....

[Lunk1]

I am damn proud of each and every one of you...even Gixx I would be shocked if any other thread that has started or led to a discussiuon on faith and religion has ever gone this well. You are all to be commended for your maturity and civility!

Drinks all around....405 you may sit on my right LMAO!

[--->>405<<---]

LOL. I appreciate ur Candor however, i can not consider the possibility of being wrong about my faith. This is not out of stubbornness or close-mindedness it simply goes against everything i believe. I have witnessed Gods work in my life and the lives of others. I simply can not deny it even for argument sake. I hope u can respect that.

[--->>405<<---]

I am damn proud of each and every one of you...even Gixx I would be shocked if any other thread that has started or led to a discussiuon on faith and religion has ever gone this well. You are all to be commended for your maturity and civility!

Drinks all around....405 you may sit on my right LMAO!

I like sweet tea with lemon!

[Lunk1]

I like sweet tea with lemon!

How about just tea...don't need all that sugar lol!

I will mention you in a prayer on Sunday. You may want to say one for my wife before I mention to her that we are going to church. She will have the big one for sure!

[Times Roman]

LOL. I appreciate ur Candor however, i can not consider the possibility of being wrong about my faith. This is not out of stubbornness or close-mindedness it simply goes against everything i believe. I have witnessed Gods work in my life and the lives of others. I simply can not deny it even for argument sake. I hope u can respect that.

I like sweet tea with lemon!

and this is why some muslims are willing to strap dynamite to their chests and blow themselves up in crowded places. Because they cannot consider the possibilty of:

1) that they are wrong, and...
2) Infidels might be right

and because compromise is outside the realms of possibility, they strap on the dynamite and go marching off to meet the virgins.

This is a MAJOR flaw of the idea of religion! Of the seven (7) billlion people on the face of this earth, how is it that only one (1) billion Christians got it right and get to go to heaven, and six (6) billion other non christians got it wrong and will be tortured in hell for all eternity?

When people of religion are unwilling or unable to compromise, and ideals clash, war will inevitably ensue and thousands, if not millions murdered in the name of religion.

When people are unable/unwilling to compromise, that means they have already made up their minds, and therefore have closed their minds to new ideas. Everything they know and want to know is in a document created by some ancient emporer named Constantine (even though they refuse to admit this). When this happens, truth gets thrown to the wind, and dogma prevails.

Dogma is a very scary thing, as it is the driving force of the spanish inquisition, and no one is allowed to question the religious zealots in power. This is the very definition of the dark ages.

Here is a brief discussion about "Dogma"

Dogma is the official system of belief or doctrine held by a religion, or a particular group or organization.[1] It serves as part of the primary basis of an ideology or belief system, and it can not be changed or discarded without affecting the very system's paradigm, or the ideology itself. Although it generally refers to religious beliefs that are accepted regardless of evidence, they can refer to acceptable opinions of philosophers or philosophical schools, public decrees, or issued decisions of political authorities.[2]

The term derives from Greek δόγμα "that which seems to one, opinion or belief"[3] and that from δοκέω (dokeo), "to think, to suppose, to imagine".[4] Dogma came to signify laws or ordinances adjudged and imposed upon others by the First Century. The plural is either dogmas or dogmata, from Greek δόγματα. The term "dogmatics" is used as a synonym for systematic theology, as in Karl Barth's defining textbook of neo-orthodoxy, the 14-volume Church Dogmatics.

[Times Roman]

it is very dangerous in a society when there are some that profess to know the truth, know all the answers, and then are willing to persecute those that do not believe as they believe.

I understand faith. I've studied it. I studied with Jesuits in a Jesuit university for a number of years. Jesuits are very enlightened, and some will concede that they could be wrong about their faith, but that doesn't diminish their faith in the least. They know about Constantine (Who do you think I learned about Constantine from?), and openly admit that the bible is what it is. The jesuits are very learned. But their faith transcends science, and explains why many scientists look to metaphysics to answer some of their most profound questions.

it is possible to merge both science and metaphysics, but in order to do that, one must take the blinders off and become a "seeker" and be willing to go down what ever path that may lead you to.

It is commendable that you fouund faith to resolve some personal issues that were plaguing you, but now I challange you to come out of that shell, and take a step into elightenment. It is possible to stay true to your faith AND be willing to accept the universe around you as it really is, a wonderous place that is so much more than Constantine could ever possibly imagine!

Cheers!

[Times Roman]

And I see someone peeking into this thread that is light years more advanced in this topic of discussion than I. But for now, he has chosen to remain silent?

[Times Roman]

I am damn proud of each and every one of you...even Gixx I would be shocked if any other thread that has started or led to a discussiuon on faith and religion has ever gone this well. You are all to be commended for your maturity and civility!

Drinks all around....405 you may sit on my right LMAO!

Why? 405 is bigger than me! I gotta be nice =)

[Lunk1]

And I see someone peeking into this thread that is light years more advanced in this topic of discussion than I. But for now, he has chosen to remain silent?

It has been monitered rather closely lol. I will say this TR...I have a great appreciation for the way you debate your side. 405 as well. I said it in the other thread. This has been a very hot topic thread yet everyone has been able to remain civil and will still respect one another after it dies it's own death. Yet someone got banned over a thread about a fkn statue lol. Just shows the maturity level of the men who have gotten involved in the thread! My hat is off to you all!

[Times Roman]

It has been monitered rather closely lol. I will say this TR...I have a great appreciation for the way you debate your side. 405 as well. I said it in the other thread. This has been a very hot topic thread yet everyone has been able to remain civil and will still respect one another after it dies it's own death. Yet someone got banned over a thread about a fkn statue lol. Just shows the maturity level of the men who have gotten involved in the thread! My hat is off to you all!

405 is a good bloke, and my hat's off to him.

The funny thing to my position is that the only thing I try to profess is that i have an open mind. Other than that, in all likelyhood, I probably have it wrong.

And I'll tell you this, of the seven (7) billion people on this planet right now, I'm willing to bet WE ALL HAVE IT WRONG!

My purpose to this whole dialogue, every time i go down this path, and not just today, is to try and get someone to open their mind to the possibility that there may be other answers out there other than what Constantine created and what King James continued to evolve in this extremely complex debate.

Most of the time, I fail. But every once in awhile, I do succeed.

Almost like trying to convince a steadfast 19 year old why they shouldnt' begin AAS for another 5 or 6 years.....?

[Times Roman]

maybe the analogy of the 19 year old is inappropriate because it refers to a level of immaturity that i did not intend.

So i need to come up with a better analogy

[warmouth]

Knowledge is compounded and accumulated.
So in fact, we HAVE become smarter!

I think what you meant to say is we are struggling to become "Wiser"?

If this is what you meant, then i agree.

Technology is the easy part. The ethical implications of this technology? not so easy!

Yes. This is what I meant. I didnt mean we havent become "smarter" in the sense of knowing more, just that we didnt have this sudden breakthrough and somehow because of something unexplainable we are some how wiser. I should have put it this way. Of course we have became smarter in what we know, not that we were lacking in knowledge then, just information.

[warmouth]

Question 1

Without getting technical, the overall dimensions of Noah's Arc are such that it would be impossible to house two of every kind of animal on the face of the earth.

Comments?

But with God, "All things are possible".