TRT at early 20's

[apple2go]

Hello guys!

I think about starting a trt protocol.

The problem(its actually not a problem is I'm only 21. Now I no longer do bodybuilding but I used to do it only naturally. I do mix martial arts and 'k1' with some weight training.
I didn't do any cycles with AAS. I started trainging when I was 17 then I did some test booster cycles(with dietary supps) maybe it caused the mess.

So 2 years ago when I was 19, I was like a teenager you know and actually I was. I had very big girl related 'appetite'(spam filter doesnt let me to use the S word), sometimes I stared at a woman and got erections and every morning I got morning woods that much I wasn't able to make soft lol. I always have problems with energy so even if I went bed in early afternoon I could sleep. I had mediocre test levels. I dont know the exact number but it was quite ok. Estro prolactin thyroid stuff etc levels were good. Despite having mediocre test level I couldn't make any solid gains. My diet was more than ok I countered even the cals of the veggies. I tried different kind of diets even keto things cause I'm endoish. I was far away from the aesthetic body. Okay I made some gains but it was kinda nothing compare to the investment (food, supps, energy etc).

It started 1 year ago maybe. My 'girl related appetite' has gone down a lot now I barely have those kind of desires. I have a very sexy GF and I fu*k with her because I don't want to lose her. Energy level is about 0 when I get up I always think about that I should sleep 2 more hours and because I have a job when I am my own boss I can do that. But then I wake up again and feel myself the same and I get up because I have some work. I havent had morning wood about 9 or 10 month ago and when I had it was like half hard.

I had bitch tits surgery it has been developed when I was 13-14. Now my estro is okay!

I went to the doctor and checked my test levels in aug. It was 10,62 with a range of 9-28. My doc said it is okay. As I read it is f**k but nowhere from okay... The problem is that I live in Hungary(hehe sorry for bad language). Here docs dont do TRT, and theres no good test in the pharmacy (we have the Neb**** in our pharmacy it is a very long lasting test, but its 140$/month here, its like the 1/4 of the average salary, or I can choose shitty gels and pellets).

So if I do something I am on my own and buy something from black market.

First and last:
-I have confirmed low test, estro, prolactin etc was ok
-no libido
-very weak erection(when I take my P out from my lady I have to masturbate or I lose erection)
-no energy, tired all the day, with mental fog
-no morning wood
-feeling myself a ***** not the MAN
-being a crying bit*h
-etc


I have prostatitis now. They find the second bacteria in my sperm.

Sorry for the novel. Now my questions:

1.If I start it will I be able to have children?

2.Is it safe without doc? I can do BW for kinda cheap but I dont know how to analyze it and kinda afraid of self medication.

3.Where can I get up to date infos? For example I read that TRT needs H(uman)CG and Ade*, somesay it is not necessary even harmful etc

4. If I no longer wish to use exogen test how can I bounce myself back? I guess in no way. Is it true?


Im kinda afraid of depend on dru*s especially when Im travelling or going to work in other countries.



Thank you!

(sorry somewhere I had to use awful words because spam filter)

[kelkel]

Welcome to the forum apple and sorry for your problems. Don't jump on TRT just yet. Get a copy of your blood work and post it all here with ranges so we can take a look. You doc said you were ok even though you were at the bottom end of the scale. As you know that is not an accurate assessment. At your age you should be at the top of the scale naturally. If your doc is so quick to dismiss your T level as OK I can only imagine what else was missed.

Low T can be caused by many things and full BW is the key here. We really cannot speculate without seeing the blood work. We'd just be throwing darts. Find a way to get a complete copy and post it up.

Again, welcome to the forum.

kel

[Times Roman]

Just a few years ago, TRT/HRT was an underground "secret" and many that should be on it, weren't. Now I fear with the commercialization of this male complaint, that the pendelum will swing the other way, and many will go on TRT, when they shouldn't. I would love it if those commercials we see on TV came straight out and said that once you go on TRT, expect to remain on TRT for the rest of your life. But they don't...................

Welcome to the board mate.
At your age, TRT is the LAST thing you should be attempting to try, after you have completely exhausted everything else, and then twice over!

Good luck!
---Roman

[apple2go]

Hello Gentlemans!

Thank you for the replies! I really appreciate it.

Kelkel: I am not home yet. I thought that I take bw it to my car but maybe I put this to my safe(dont want my GF to see it). Once I get home I will post it here. I wish you will comeback here to see my BW. Thank you!

Times Roman:Yes, I am really afraid of depending d*ugs especially when being 21. Thank you for saying this and not letting me to jump into TRT. Can I ask you to come back later and check my BW?


KA.

[kelkel]

We will. Just be sure to post everything with ranges please...

[lovbyts]

You guys notice this is the 2nd 20 year old who has low T and the only thing they have used is Test boosters? I have been saying for a long time that test booster or pro hormones are worse than aas and seem to do more permanent damage.

[J DIESEL3]

I hear what you are saying I also know a couple of guys from my gym that are 22 and 23 and are a mess..
They used pro hormones a few times and now are shut down.

I agree pro hormones and test boosters are probably worse than aas!

[lovbyts]

Yeah it sucks because you can buy them legally most anywhere and one would think they would be safer than aas or only has a short term issues. I'm GLAD I somehow passed those up when I was younger and stuck to natural stuff. I only wish I understood diet back then.

[apple2go]

I'm back.

BW from 2012.05.02

TSH 4,35 0-35-4,94
T3 4,3 (H) 1,71-3,71
T4 1,55 0,7-1,8
FSH 3,15 1-8
LH 3,5 2-12
Prolactin 9,7 1,2-10,7
Thyreoglobulin 16,9 3-80
Total test. 5,76 2,8-8.0
ATPO 7,75 0-63

[apple2go]

BW from 2012 aug

IGF1 234 141-483
HGH 2,4 0-8

TSH 4,8 0.27-4.2
FT3 6,9 3.1-6.8
FT4 19.9 21-22
Prolactin 152 86-324
Test 10.62 9,9-28
SHBG 26.3 14.5-48,4
FSH 2,5 1,5-12,4
LH 2,6 1,7-8,6
estradiol 60 <156
Cortisol 180 171-536

[apple2go]

After the last(aug) BW endo send me to the urulogist because he said s*x drive loss and ED are from prostatitis. They find streptococcus agalactie from urine after prostate massage, and streptococcus salivarius.
Urulogist said if I take antibiotics it should be work for the ED and s*x drive loss. He prescribed me CIA then via*ra but none of them worked so far.

[steroid.com 1]

BW from 2012 aug

IGF1 234 141-483
HGH 2,4 0-8
Fine.


TSH 4,8 0.27-4.2
Elevated...possible hypothyroidism.

FT3 6,9 3.1-6.8
This looks great, converting T4 to T3 nicely.

FT4 19.9 21-22
This is very nice as well...suggests not hypothyroidism BUT I don't see RT3 and Thyroid antibodies. Sometimes you can have great FT4 and FT3 yet RT3 can be elevated causing Hypothyroidism...you still need these.

Prolactin 152 86-324
Fine.

Test 10.62 9,9-28
Very low as you know.

SHBG 26.3 14.5-48,4
Fine.

FSH 2,5 1,5-12,4
Low and points to possible Hypothyroidism among other things.

LH 2,6 1,7-8,6
Low and points to possible Hypothyroidism among other things.

estradiol 60 <156
What's the value of this lab? pg/ml???

Cortisol 180 171-536

Fine.

I suspect that you may have hypothyroidism. You are missing RT3 and Antibodies and like i said, FT4 and FT3 can be in optimal range but till you see RT3 you just don't know what's going on. It would explain your suppressed LH and FSH values as well as your symptoms.

[steroid.com 1]

Ok, just saw these:

Thyreoglobulin 16,9 3-80
Thyroglobulin Antibodies and you are low which is what you want.


ATPO 7,75 0-63
This is low Thyroid Peroxidase Antibodies (ATPO). The concentrations of antibodies found in men or women with Graves' disease are usually lower than in patients with Hashimoto's disease.

I think you need more Thyroid and Pituitary testing done to be honest. ATPO is stimulated by TSH and your TSH levels are elevated but ATPO is low. You need to rule out Hashimoto Thyroiditis.

Read this:
Value of Low Levels of Anti-TPO Antibodies in Patients With Suspicion of Hashimoto Thyroiditis
Eising, Ernst G. PD Dr med; Jentzen, Walter Dr rer nat; Freudenberg, Lutz Dr med; Bockisch, Andreas Prof Dr med, Dr rer nat

Abstract
In clinical practice, many patients do not show the full symptoms of Hashimoto thyroiditis. The titer of the anti-TPO antibodies (ATAB) is often detectable but not pathologically elevated. This study evaluates the clinical status of patients with low ATAB titers.

Sixty-eight consecutive patients (55 female, 13 male; age: 24-84 years; mean: 55.4 years) with detectable titers of ATAB were investigated by clinical status, ultrasound, and thyroid scintigraphy with Tc-99m.

Eighteen patients had pathologically elevated titers of ATAB. Fifty-eight patients with detectable ATAB titers had clinical symptoms, 46 hypoechoic tissue by ultrasound, 17 a decrease in thyroid gland volume, and 14 a thyroid-stimulating hormone >2.5 mU/L.

Patients with low titers of ATAB and thyroid-stimulating hormone values in the upper reference interval (>2.5 mU/L) can have symptoms compatible with thyroid dysfunction and deserve a trial of therapy.

[apple2go]

Kelkel:Thank you!

estradiol is in pg/ml.

Interesting. How didn't my doctor spot this? Should I go to another doctor?

If I go to the doctor next time(as soon as possible) what should I test in the next bloodwork?

[apple2go]

gdevine: Thanks!
Lot of info right there. What do you advice? What to check in the next BW? Changing doctor?

And a question for all:
a thyroid dysfunction can cause mess with the test? If yes, will it can be fixed so my test will be ok?

[kelkel]

The finding a doc sticky has BW in it and be sure to add in what GD said as well.

[steroid.com 1]

gdevine: Thanks!
Lot of info right there. What do you advice? What to check in the next BW? Changing doctor?

And a question for all:
a thyroid dysfunction can cause mess with the test? If yes, will it can be fixed so my test will be ok?

You need to find a Doctor who is a specialist on Thyroid; there out there but you need to find them.

You need much more further testing in my opinion.

Fix your Thyroid and fix your hypogonadism.

[apple2go]

Hello, I'm back.

I just get back from my new doctor. He is considered one of the male hormon specialist there. He said that the previous doctor was a bum and questioned how he could miss the low testosterone. That's fine.
He will do BW, I will have to go back after 2 weeks. He didn't say anything about the thyroids but added them to the BW.

What he gave me is Human*CG and DHEA(dhea is not available here, just on the black market, but he gave me that lol).

HCG: I think it is insane because he prescribed me 6x5000IU(!!!!) HCG and ordered to use it 5000IU/week. Then he said he will give me 2 more 5k iu vial. What the....? Am I idiot or is it really a very huge shot?? What do you guys recommend me? And as I said he is the best male hormon specialist in Hun, so I have nowhere to go.

So the question: What can I do now?? What to do? What protocol should I use?

Thanks

[Allaaro]

Those HCG levels sound like you'd be using the instructions on the vial/paper....for women.

Maybe there is some new research on it.....but I've always thought the norm was 250-500, couple times per week.

[steroid.com 1]

Read the sticky at the top of the forum on the use of HCG.

[apple2go]

gdevine:
I have read your nice post about HCG. It has a lot of info in it but as I saw it says nothing about my status, it is about using hcg on trt. One thing that I can use from it right now is the fact no one should use more than 500iu in a 24h period. Did I read wrong thread? If not can you give me protocol how to use hcg in my case?


This community is very helpful and have lot of knowledge. It'll be a long way. Thank you guys!!!!

[apple2go]

sorry double most, my bad

[apple2go]

Anybody out there?

[steroid.com 1]

gdevine:
I have read your nice post about HCG. It has a lot of info in it but as I saw it says nothing about my status, it is about using hcg on trt. One thing that I can use from it right now is the fact no one should use more than 500iu in a 24h period. Did I read wrong thread? If not can you give me protocol how to use hcg in my case?


This community is very helpful and have lot of knowledge. It'll be a long way. Thank you guys!!!!

You got it correct.

First and foremost, the receptors on your leydig cells can only manage so much stimulation so adding in more is not the answer...the same with testosterone...to much is not always a good thing.

Second, increased serum levels of HCG can increase intratesticular E2 levels and to make it worse AI's are largely ineffective in managing intratesticular E2.

Dr.Crisler believes a man shouldn't inject more that 350 iu on any given day.

That may be a good base line for you to start your HCG protocol.

[apple2go]

I really appreciate your oppinion about this topic Gdevine!


"Second, increased serum levels of HCG can increase intratesticular E2 levels and to make it worse AI's are largely ineffective in managing intratesticular E2."
Yes that was the one I got but didn't write it down.

So I know the dose now.Im planning to pin 300IU(it is easier to measure without the 50 i guess) ED. What about the duration? 2 month? 3 month?

[apple2go]

Hello Guys!

Update.

After searching the internet I found Dr Scally's restarting protocol. I don't know if "natty" test boosters caused the mess or I was born like this. Anyway Scally writes it is NOT just for people with hypogonadism caused by AS.

2500IU HCG every 4th day for 16 days
100mg clomiphene citrate for 30days (if I get serious side effect I will decrease dose to 50/day)
20mg tamoxifen for 45days
(and what my doctor gave me is 25mg DHEA ed)

Ive been doing it for 6 day. My libido went up a bit but still having ED. My overall energy level increased a bit. That's the good side but I have some annoying side effects. N1 is sleeping disturbance. I wake up in the middle of the night then I can get no sleep so in the middle of the day I have to go to bed for 1 hour(which actually up to 3hours). It is not bother me that much since I have my own business. N2 is neurvousness and restlessness in a very strange form. I feel like I cannot command myself not to be nervous or how to say that. It doesnt last too long and cold fresh air helps to get rid of this. Dont know if the 2 sides have anything to do with the restarting protocol.


Today I called my doctor who is totally incompetent and arrogant. He told me to call him another day so I don't know anything about my latest BW. As soon as I get it I will post here.

Sorry for my english. I hope you can understand it.

Cheers!

[apple2go]

Hello!


I did the mentioned "therapy", but nothing really changed. My doc has gone to a vacation in march and hasnt been here yet lol. He will be 'online' in the middle of june. Nice.

So no bloodwork has made since the last one. I thought about changing the doc. I went to another doc with my problem. I was relieved when he said: 'I can feel your problem because most docs say that it is not a big problem so you can live with it and something like that. I will do my research about this topic and find a complex answer to your problem.' When I left his consulting room I felt happiness in my heart since I guessed that he will give me real solution. Stupid me!
I went back and he said that I should take MACA. I've never heard about it and he suggested that I should research it on the internet. I did and found out it is good only to ED because it is a natural PDE5 inhibitor. I went back again and started to say him that mild ED is not my only problem. And started to mention my difficulties when it comes to quality sleep. He interrupted me and said that I have a lot of stress because of my job. And gave me clonazepam... So I realized he is not too competent in trt.

So I may find another doctor or start trt on my own.


What you guys recommend?


Cheers

[powerlifterty16]

You guys notice this is the 2nd 20 year old who has low T and the only thing they have used is Test boosters? I have been saying for a long time that test booster or pro hormones are worse than aas and seem to do more permanent damage.

he may have had low t before test boosters. after many years of low t(with blood work) i tried tbol(a natural herbal shit supp) for about a month...when i was 21 or 22.

[powerlifterty16]

I really appreciate your oppinion about this topic Gdevine!


"Second, increased serum levels of HCG can increase intratesticular E2 levels and to make it worse AI's are largely ineffective in managing intratesticular E2."
Yes that was the one I got but didn't write it down.

So I know the dose now.Im planning to pin 300IU(it is easier to measure without the 50 i guess) ED. What about the duration? 2 month? 3 month?

what kind of blood test tests for intratesticular e2? is it the same estradiol sensitive used for normal e2? how do you know if your e2 is normal or itnratesticular?

[apple2go]

powerlifterty16
1. Maybe I had low-normal T levels before supps, but I'm sure they caused the mess.
2. I don't know anything about the method of the measurement. Sorry.

Thank you!

[apple2go]

Hi guys!

I write it down even if no one interested in it at all.

So today I called my doc since I wanted a BW. He scheduled me today so I traveled 100km distance. I said him I wish to have a bw done. He said ok, but what is ridiculous (or sad instead) the fact he stated he do me a BW, but testing only total test and DHEA and thats for extra $... And said he will give me exogen test if my test is under the 'normal' range. So if I am low-normal he suggests not to take anything but DHEA.

I don't know what would be the best option. I've had a lot of doc so far, I don't even bother myself counting them.Honestly I don't see any chance to find a decent doc around here(Hungary) because no one cares about if a young man has low life quality because of low-'normal' test.

So options:
1. using some exogen test for 8week in order to stop it 2 weeks before another blood test. In short to artifically lower my test levels. It is because this is the only way I could ever get prescribed test. (this is what I want now...)
2. find a decent doc
3.not giving shit about it and continue my life, then if I am 30 I will reevaluate
4. start using test for the rest of my life from the black market


What you guys think? What should I do?


Cheers

[apple2go]

Hi,

I got my BW.

Total test: 16,6 (range: 9,9-26,6)
DHEA: 7,2 (range: they didn't write that down...doc said the low is something like low 2's)

But I guess it says nothing basically. Doc gave me proviron, one 25mg tabs 3times a day (250tab in all) , along with 800mg Vitamine E.

Doc says that he cannot measure free test altough it is more important than total test. So I should go to a private laboratory.


What you guys think about this proviron monotherapy?

Please someone help me.

Thank you!

[apple2go]

Anyone?

[sparverius]

You can calculate free T if you know total T and SHBG: Free & Bioavailable Testosterone calculator

[apple2go]

The problem is my doc tested only total test and DHEAs.

Thank you!