Steroids and Body Fat: I Disagree

[MuscleInk]

Didn't have lipo, but had to have loose skin removed....the wearing of the girdle sucks!

The good old nip and tuck!

I have two employees with lap bands. Nothing but health complications now.

[--->>405<<---]

If this is so then why don't we ask what's your blood pressure, training schedule, diet, etc most just assume a high bf a poor work ethic or a beginner or a lazy ass that wants quick easy results without sacrifice. I'm guessing my bf at 18% and I now i train harder than most guys at the gym with less bf a lot approach me asking for advice

ok i just re read this and misunderstood what was being asked. So i will say i see why u were confused with my response. My answer was honestly a response to what i thought u were asking me. I do stand behind what i say below however. The misunderstanding does not justify ur attitude .

What the hell does this mean?are you trying to impress me with your outstanding program your missing the point I made if the question is health then lets state that not just assume everyone over a certain bf is not fit to do aas there's many factors that play into a successful program if you had enough time to read the whole post instead of trying to woooo me with your diet and stats I can tell u it has been posted on this forum that aas isn't going to do u any good if your over a certain bf. tren for example binds to the ar's in fat cells causing a great aas for weight fat loss this could be benifical to someone that has a higher bf. but gets mislead by someone posting it isn't going to do much for u at that bf.

This is exactly the attitude that makes new forum mbers shy away from asking the questions that need to be asked. Some of the senior members post comments that make new members lie about there stats to get info that's not going to be correct, I'm not questioning his knowlage I'm sure it's solid it's his approach to a member on the forum that's outta line. If we're here to help then let's ask the questions that are truly important, like your bf might be high for aas how's your blood pressure,any recent bw etc

I know not of what attitude u speak. You are the one with the poor attitude, chip on ur shoulder. I suggest u lose it. Guys who act in this manner do not do well here. Having a debate is fine. Disagreeing is fine. Maintaining a combative, accusatory position is NOT fine. Especially when your position is u substantiated. U askd my BP, diet, routine, etc.. I gave it to u. Now if u were trying to be a smart ass, well i didnt pick up on it. I suggest in the future u do a better job!

I am here to help new guys and encourage them and answer questions that are askd with genuine curiosity and concern. I am not going to entertain a guy coming across in the manner in which u are conducting urself. As i said earlier u would fare well to lose the chip off ur shoulder pal.

[Metalject]

comparing TRT to cycling is 2 different things altogether.

TRT is designed to mimick natural test production in a male who is deficient in test in the first place. ur talking doses ranging on average from 100mg per week to 200mg per week.

cycling is overdosing on test to the tune of 500mg per week +.. NOT the same thing. u cant use TRT as a means to justify running steroid cycles. NOT to mention im only talking about test here.

im not gonna repeat what ive already said. i think what ur suggesting in this thread is borderline at best making statements like high bf cycles are ok.. there are a lot of people reading these threads.. guys in the 20%bf range on average IMO are NOT READY TO CYCLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just two quick points....

1. Testosterone is still testosterone no matter why you're using it. It's functional properties do not change because it's being used in TRT or supraphysiological doses.

2. I like to look at things black and white as much as possible. I don't like posting things and altering what is just because someone else might read it. I like this board, but I'd say that is the one thing that drives me crazy about this place. I don't like scare tactics, let truth and facts speak for themselves and then let people decide what they'll do.

[MickeyKnox]

Just two quick points....

1. Testosterone is still testosterone no matter why you're using it. It's functional properties do not change because it's being used in TRT or supraphysiological doses.

2. I like to look at things black and white as much as possible. I don't like posting things and altering what is just because someone else might read it. I like this board, but I'd say that is the one thing that drives me crazy about this place. I don't like scare tactics, let truth and facts speak for themselves and then let people decide what they'll do.

The physical properties are the same, but the RESULTS are completely different when comparing TRT and supraphysical amounts of testosterone - no contest.

[Metalject]

Great post Metalject.

Reds..

Sure, 15% is a good guideline. I don't have any problem with that. I simply don't like the set in stone mentality some (many) tend to lay out. I don't care for insinuating disaster just because someone's over 15% BF...that's insanity IMO.

The "It can't be both comment.".....my point was simply that extra BF can make estrogenic effects harder to control or more aptly put they may need more attention....again, it depends on the guy. However, it can be controlled. Just because you may or may not have to give something more attention does not mean you can't control it. You know, just like how some guys have a difficult time controlling cholesterol while others don't. I've never had cholesterol or blood pressure issues but I still recognize some have to put more effort into controlling theirs than I do.

[Crooktele79]

The good old nip and tuck!

I have two employees with lap bands. Nothing but health complications now.

Yeah I was determined to lose weight without having bariatric surgery for that reason...I have never seen a bariatric patient that looks healthy.

[Metalject]

The physical properties are the same, but the RESULTS are completely different when comparing TRT and supraphysical amounts of testosterone - no contest.

I understand and I'm not implying the results are not the same. But aromatization still works the same way, reduction to DHT still works the same way...in that nothing changes. And the way to control the hormone (if needed) doesn't change. How one goes about that, now that can change, i.e. some like you needing more AI's than others.

[MuscleInk]

Yeah I was determined to lose weight without having bariatric surgery for that reason...I have never seen a bariatric patient that looks healthy.

I've treated 4 post surgery with a range of complications. All four have since regretted the decision.

[MickeyKnox]

I understand and I'm not implying the results are not the same. But aromatization still works the same way, reduction to DHT still works the same way...in that nothing changes. And the way to control the hormone (if needed) doesn't change. How one goes about that, now that can change, i.e. some like you needing more AI's than others.

Agreed.

[motoxposse]

ok i just re read this and misunderstood what was being asked. So i will say i see why u were confused with my response. My answer was honestly a response to what i thought u were asking me. I do stand behind what i say below however. The misunderstanding does not justify ur attitude .

I know not of what attitude u speak. You are the one with the poor attitude, chip on ur shoulder. I suggest u lose it. Guys who act in this manner do not do well here. Having a debate is fine. Disagreeing is fine. Maintaining a combative, accusatory position is NOT fine. Especially when your position is u substantiated. U askd my BP, diet, routine, etc.. I gave it to u. Now if u were trying to be a smart ass, well i didnt pick up on it. I suggest in the future u do a better job!

I am here to help new guys and encourage them and answer questions that are askd with genuine curiosity and concern. I am not going to entertain a guy coming across in the manner in which u are conducting urself. As i said earlier u would fare well to lose the chip off ur shoulder pal.

You telling me your quote I could listen macros but don't fell the need wasnt a jab at my point some guys with low bf are lazy trainers maybe you should be more clear when u post your stats I wasn't asking to help anyone with there routine I was simply stating bf% is not the only factor in aas usage and we should ask the right questions however u do have an impressive résumé but my attitude is affected greatly by my aas usage and it can show at times there's one of those side effects of aas that has nothing to do with bf. I was a big enough man to apologize for my attitude when Micky called me out !

[--->>405<<---]

You telling me your quote I could listen macros but don't fell the need wasnt a jab at my point some guys with low bf are lazy trainers maybe you should be more clear when u post your stats I wasn't asking to help anyone with there routine I was simply stating bf% is not the only factor in aas usage and we should ask the right questions however u do have an impressive résumé but my attitude is affected greatly by my aas usage and it can show at times there's one of those side effects of aas that has nothing to do with bf. I was a big enough man to apologize for my attitude when Micky called me out !

tell u what man, we just let it go. i realize bf% is not the only factor where AAS are concerned but when ur dealing with hundreds even into thousands of people like on this board right here it can be a big factor for determining level of fitness as well as dedication, dietary knowledge, etc.. im not saying all guys 20% shouldnt run a cycle im just saying a lot of guys coming to a AAS board asking questions about cycling and first cycles and wanting to lose weight have a tendency to want to include AAS prematurely.

and no me saying i could list macros but didnt feel like it was not a jab at anything, i just didnt feel the need as i felt all the other info shouldve been sufficient for u to determine my macros ought to be where they should be..

[m_donnelly]

Fat cells do reproduce through mitosis but only once they're at 'maximum capacity'. So, a person will increase their ability to make aromatase if they're gaining body fat.

[OdinsOtherSon]

You're welcome, and i believe that answers your last question.

Just to recap, there is no one magical BF number or percentage that is carved in stone. But we DO know that the higher your BF, the more likely you are to experience sides. This has been proven over and over again.

But with all the data available, and since i believe it's prudent to error on the side of caution, i feel strongly that the 15% rule of thumb is a solid benchmark to use as a guideline for those beginning an AAS cycle.

Bingo! Thanks for saying what I was trying to say!

[Lunk1]

I cycle at high BF%....fuk ya

[MickeyKnox]

I cycle at high BF%....fuk ya

I hear the Peanut Buster Parfait's have an anabolic rating of 400.

[Lunk1]

I hear the Peanut Buster Parfait's have an anabolic rating of 400.

PP blizzards make tren look like EQ lol

[MickeyKnox]

lol!

[songdog]

Hey I like DQ but they dont have them here any more.And they dont fit in my diet thanx to 405 LOL

[--->>405<<---]

I cycle at high BF%....fuk ya

hows the diet coming along??

[Bio-Active]

405 Looking great Bro!

hows the diet coming along??

[--->>405<<---]

405 Looking great Bro!

thx dude

hittin it hard! still a ways to go!

[Java Man]

A common theme you see on many message boards is that you need to be at a certain body fat before you use any steroids. The idea is that if your body fat is at a certain point or beyond:

1. You won’t be able to combat side effects
2. You won’t get any thing out of your cycle
3. You’ll be shortchanging your gains (whatever the crap that means…I hate the word “Gains” as it’s so often inaccurately used to describe and encompass all steroid use, but that’s another argument for another day)

Before I go any further this little discussion is not taking into account obese men, that’s a separate argument. The argument here is that if a man is 15% body fat or more using steroids would be pointless, disastrous or both. My point is this simply isn’t true. Let’s also keep in mind 15%BF is not considered unhealthy; in fact, medically men in the 15-20% are considered healthy, older men can sometimes slightly increase that and still be well within a healthy range.

So here’s the argument or at least the primary ones:

1. You won’t be able to control aromatization if you’re 15% BF or more…this is false. You may very well need to give it more attention, but it can still be controlled. You also must take into account the individualistic nature of man…many will have an easy time controlling it regardless of being a very low BF or even 15+.

2. You have to lose body fat first before you use any gear….False. This doesn’t take into account the muscle tissue lost that will ABSOLUTELY occur regardless of how well-planned your diet is. If you can control side effects, which you can, and if you can maintain more of your muscle mass while losing fat, which you can, you will burn fat at a more efficient rate and you will look much better as your diet progresses and even more so when it comes to an end.

A good example….through my years of bodybuilding I can think back on one year in particular where I allowed myself to gain far more fat in the off-season than I should have. I was desperate to put on more size and while I still ate very clean I simply ate too much and put on too much fat. I don’t know what my BF was at the end of that off-season but I can guarantee you it was every bit of 15% if not a little more. So I started my prep that year, it was a very hard diet, I’d call it brutal and while all contest diets are brutal it was more than it should have been because I got a little too fat. However, the end result was good, but would it have been as good if I had dieted naturally? Not a chance. I would have lost a lot of muscle mass, not a chance I could have gotten as lean and hard with as much muscle mass preserved had I been natural…it would go against the very laws of common sense to even imply it.

The long and short, there’s more to steroid use than simply putting on piles and piles of muscle. For some that’s the entire point and that’s OK too but it’s not the end all be all. If you can use gear to aid you in your pursuit while maintaining your health despite being 15%+ I see absolutely no reason why you shouldn’t.

This ends my rambling and point of view for today. I'm sure many will disagree and that's OK too. The way I see it, it gives us something else to talk about other than "should I use 500mg/test/wk for 10 or 12wks?"

I must respectfully - agree with you!

I have done it many times before and I'm doing it right now - cutting fat while gaining LBM. How? Dbol and Test E. Most ppl would say "that;s ridiculous - you'll just get bloated and fat". Nosce te ipsum... It's all about knowing thine own self. I'm old enough and experienced enough to know what works and what doesn't - FOR ME. That said, would I go telling a 22yo freshman to do this? No. They have to gain the experience themselves. We all (well I like to think all) reach a point where we just intuitively know what to do but every body is different, every body reacts differently to stimulus, every MIND is different. There is a lot of mind in this as well as body. Since I have reached that point, I'm not listening to most of the posted "advice" here anyways because that isn't meant for me. It's generalised.

[GhostOfRome]

thx dude

hittin it hard! still a ways to go!

yeah looking mad good brother, how old are you?

[MickeyKnox]

thx dude

hittin it hard! still a ways to go!

Yup, looking solid brother. You have awesome muscle separation at the delts and upper triceps...im jelly.

[kelkel]

And nice weight/reps on your squats as well 405? Trying to catch me?

[Metalject]

I cycle at high BF%....fuk ya

Asshole, lol!

[Natureboy71]

This exact thread has been covered a few times over the years but still there are a lot of good posts in this thread. Everyone is so different in how they react to AAS. I have cycled at 22%, 20% many times but found my BP always climbed high by the end. I personally like to cycle at 15% and no lower for a few reasons. For myself, I like my look at 15%. I don't want to be a GQ model and I like my overall physical size at 15%. I feel too scrawney at any less, but that is just me. I am a gym rat, not a competitor.

I have never had any E related issues so I, like many am just lucky that is the case. At 20% I just don't have the cardio in me to do the workouts they way I like. 15% I find is perfect and for me any lower and it's like my body is straining to keep the gains up and my joints hurt more. I also find that at 15% my strenght gain is fantastic in relation to how I feel.

Again, this is just my experience after 20 years of AAS use.

[--->>405<<---]

And nice weight/reps on your squats as well 405? Trying to catch me?

Thx Kel. Think about this: ive been cutting on TRT dose (for the most part) for the last 4 months. Wait til i get on a proper bulk and throw 500mg test on top. Wonder what thatll do for my numbers!!

[--->>405<<---]

Yup, looking solid brother. You have awesome muscle separation at the delts and upper triceps...im jelly.

Thx mick!

[--->>405<<---]

yeah looking mad good brother, how old are you?

Thx man.. 38 and 1/2 LOL

[bigsiv]

Great read guys nice to see a good debate and TGIF vast knowledge spread all over!

[Oldandbusted]

So if the magic number is 15% BF. I know it's not, but for arguments sake... How is that measured? I mean there is such an enormous variation between the different ways of measuring body fat, how does one know which to believe? A 15% person with calipers may be 18% on one of this bio electric scales and that same guy will likely test over 20% in a hydrostatic tank.

I'm not trying to offend anyone, or start an argument. I just felt inclined to point out that most people's BF is a bit higher than they think it is, and also as the stupid noob asking questions I want to know what the accepted standard of measurement is for the guys on this board so that my numbers will jive with everybody else's.

[warmouth]

Thx Kel. Think about this: ive been cutting on TRT dose (for the most part) for the last 4 months. Wait til i get on a proper bulk and throw 500mg test on top. Wonder what thatll do for my numbers!!

I personally can't wait for you to do this! Do it during the next comp, lol.

[warmouth]

So if the magic number is 15% BF. I know it's not, but for arguments sake... How is that measured? I mean there is such an enormous variation between the different ways of measuring body fat, how does one know which to believe? A 15% person with calipers may be 18% on one of this bio electric scales and that same guy will likely test over 20% in a hydrostatic tank.

I'm not trying to offend anyone, or start an argument. I just felt inclined to point out that most people's BF is a bit higher than they think it is, and also as the stupid noob asking questions I want to know what the accepted standard of measurement is for the guys on this board so that my numbers will jive with everybody else's.

I look at pictures and mirrors. I get measured, but its a waste for me. I stay at 15% year round unless on cycle. I can easily get to 10 or 12 with the right compounds to help aid a calorie deficit.

[Metalject]

So if the magic number is 15% BF. I know it's not, but for arguments sake... How is that measured? I mean there is such an enormous variation between the different ways of measuring body fat, how does one know which to believe? A 15% person with calipers may be 18% on one of this bio electric scales and that same guy will likely test over 20% in a hydrostatic tank.

I'm not trying to offend anyone, or start an argument. I just felt inclined to point out that most people's BF is a bit higher than they think it is, and also as the stupid noob asking questions I want to know what the accepted standard of measurement is for the guys on this board so that my numbers will jive with everybody else's.

You're right, most people are at a higher body fat than they think they are. I'd go as far as to say most serious bodybuilders are often at a higher BF than they think they are. You see this all the time when a guy gets to the point where he's ready to start dieting for a show. He assumes he's got 20lbs of fat to lose (just using a random number for examples sake) but as the weeks go by and he gets closer and closer to that 20lb mark he quickly learns he has at least another 10lbs to go if not more. More than likely before he started his diet he even told people when they asked that he was X% BF and he may have even truly believed it but most don't actually measure and if they do it's with one of those electronic pieces of garbage.

I think the electronic gizmos can be OK (depending on the gizmo) for the average person and give them somewhat of a decent idea...not a great accurate reading but perhaps decent. However, every gizmo I've ever seen, when the person is at an extreme end of the spectrum, obese or ripped to the bone, the gizmo often gives an insane reading. I've seen 250lb women who were every bit of 100+lbs overweight have their BF read at 20% or lower. The lowest I ever got my BF, or at least the best I ever looked my BF measured at 4.3% hydro and 4.7% calipers. The gizmo had me at double digit BF and a high double digit....and yes, I felt like death at that BF both physically and emotionally.

Anyway, I'm not a big fan of BF measurements as a rule...especially for the bodybuilder. Just go by how you look and how you feel. If you're a competitor and you look great and feel like crap, well you're probably ready. For the regular guy just go with what you like, what you like looking like and if you feel good and your health is good it really doesn't matter what your body fat is.

[warmouth]

You're right, most people are at a higher body fat than they think they are. I'd go as far as to say most serious bodybuilders are often at a higher BF than they think they are. You see this all the time when a guy gets to the point where he's ready to start dieting for a show. He assumes he's got 20lbs of fat to lose (just using a random number for examples sake) but as the weeks go by and he gets closer and closer to that 20lb mark he quickly learns he has at least another 10lbs to go if not more. More than likely before he started his diet he even told people when they asked that he was X% BF and he may have even truly believed it but most don't actually measure and if they do it's with one of those electronic pieces of garbage.

I think the electronic gizmos can be OK (depending on the gizmo) for the average person and give them somewhat of a decent idea...not a great accurate reading but perhaps decent. However, every gizmo I've ever seen, when the person is at an extreme end of the spectrum, obese or ripped to the bone, the gizmo often gives an insane reading. I've seen 250lb women who were every bit of 100+lbs overweight have their BF read at 20% or lower. The lowest I ever got my BF, or at least the best I ever looked my BF measured at 4.3% hydro and 4.7% calipers. The gizmo had me at double digit BF and a high double digit....and yes, I felt like death at that BF both physically and emotionally.

Anyway, I'm not a big fan of BF measurements as a rule...especially for the bodybuilder. Just go by how you look and how you feel. If you're a competitor and you look great and feel like crap, well you're probably ready. For the regular guy just go with what you like, what you like looking like and if you feel good and your health is good it really doesn't matter what your body fat is.

Awesome comment!

[MickeyKnox]

This boils down to educating yourself and being honest. If you handle those two requirements, you're home free.