Why can't I hit my shoulders??

[oatmeal69]

I'm starting weights after about a 6 month break prior to a new AAS cycle. I think this is an ideal time to find what's working, because I get DOMS as feedback.
This week I have done chest, legs and shoulders thus far. My legs are on FIRE - I can barely move them, let alone walk. My chest is the same, Not just a burn, but a deep ache that lets me know I hit it hard. Additionally, my FRONT delts are sore from this workout.

My shoulder routine is as follows:
Arnold press
Machine extensions
Seated front delt. press
Machine rear delt. flies
I do a warm-up set, and then two to three sets to failure in the 8-10 range.

Yet today there is no soreness, no fatigue, NOTHING! My traps are sore, because they're used as an auxiliary, but NOTHING in my mid and rear delts. I feel like I could go right now and work them as if they were fresh. What gives??

[cj111]

I woulnt start with Arnold press personally,I don't even do them. They aren't something you can really go to complete failure on I find.
Stick with some dumbbell presses, go till failure, and beyond.
Follow up with side laterals, drop set at end, by the end you shouldn't even be able to scratch your ear.
I've stuck to the same shoulder routine for a while, and always get sore, you just gotta push it man, go big or go home
Best of luck

[oatmeal69]

Hmmm... Most of my shoulder workout - with the exception of the Arnolds, is done on machines. I really like the lateral delt. machine... Maybe I should just stick to dumbbells. The trouble with them is that I need to use REALLY light weight to get a nice isolated movement without a lot of swinging and stopping motion at the top of the rep. With such light weight, I run into the problem of not feeling it. Still, I could dump the Arnolds, and just stick with dumbbell shoulder presses.

[cj111]

Do as many strict reps as you can, on the side laterals, and then heave em up there, who cares if you use momentum for the last few reps, your form may be shit but you are still fatiguing the muscle

[Turkish Juicer]

It is not that the routine you are following is wrong as far as type, number and/or order of exercises is concerned, it is rather the training style that fails you in the sense that your shoulder sessions are not living up to your expectations.

You should look into HIT as opposed to practicing HVT.

[oatmeal69]

I've been following Marcus300's thread about Dorian Yates and HIT. I will try less sets and 1 minute rest. I'll try for more intensity, but I already push to an "Honest" fail" on my work sets...
Other than shoulders, my other muscle groups feel WORKED. Can I stick to HVT with them?

[crazy mike]

I woulnt start with Arnold press personally,I don't even do them. They aren't something you can really go to complete failure on I find.
Stick with some dumbbell presses, go till failure, and beyond.
Follow up with side laterals, drop set at end, by the end you shouldn't even be able to scratch your ear.
I've stuck to the same shoulder routine for a while, and always get sore, you just gotta push it man, go big or go home
Best of luck

I agree with what is said above. You have to incorporate many things to break a plateau or to get a genetically slow muscle to build. forced positive to failure, stay on heavy set for more then one set 4-5 reps, then at intermediate weight negative, negative, negative, then drop sets and rep at the end. Mass builders I recommend. Shoulder bench first, barbell with same theory as I described, heavy. negatives and drop sets, then dumbbell flys front, rear and side. Machines best for rear delt flys. Use a spotter for forced reps. finish with cable fly work. So cheat if you need to lift at your heavy set and contract, hold and slowly down. Hold that contraction and try to relax you other body parts so you can feel what muscle you are working. Mind and muscle ,must connect with everything you train. to get the max build. ...crazy mike

[BR0DIE]

Heavy military presses I feel are the best for shoulders, once you can press 225 for 5 clean reps then your shoulders should be a decent size. Side laterals and front raises ect just don't cut it imo.

[crazy mike]

Also I might add that for a good upper chest which shows allot and look s good. I start my chest wrkout with high inline bench, it will not oly bring your chest up high, it will incorporate your front delts. That whole area upper outer chest and front delts will be greatly affected and will promote a tie -in chest/delt that will impress you in a little time. I'm not a show piece but after 25 yrs off ad only 5 months in the gym my pic is what I've done. Remember my shoulders months ago were entirely FLAT. They even drooped down. Ir was sad. SO that's the routine I do most of the time. I know I have to work on traps. That's another topic. But I can only think that maybe I am showing you some results at my age of 61. ...crazy mike

Remember mass building exercises first and hardest ...cm

[cj111]

Sorry off topic, but your 61? Good job man!

[oatmeal69]

I think you guys are right. I've always been a stickler for form - even when that means choosing light weights. I'm going to try good old dumbbell military press first. I'm also going to try a higher intensity, shorter workout, and I will go ahead and do 1/2 reps, negatives and cheat a little. I can't really do forced positives, because I workout alone, but I can get creative.
And Brodie - I'm a little guy with bad genes, if I could do HALF that amount for 5 reps, I'd be amazed. LOL!

[crazy mike]

I think you guys are right. I've always been a stickler for form - even when that means choosing light weights. I'm going to try good old dumbbell military press first. I'm also going to try a higher intensity, shorter workout, and I will go ahead and do 1/2 reps, negatives and cheat a little. I can't really do forced positives, because I workout alone, but I can get creative.
And Brodie - I'm a little guy with bad genes, if I could do HALF that amount for 5 reps, I'd be amazed. LOL!

Don't count, don't figure, nothing takes the place of a dam hard a$$ workout. The forced negative without a spotter come in cheating and using you whole body to get the weight up. so there's a time for every angle (no pun) I will add that you must be careful to avoid injury when throwing some heavy weight around and jerking your body. You can easily pull something totally unrelated. I put a new routine together at a plateau that starts with mass, mass heavy mass builders. myself, I cant go heavy enough in the start of my routine to do dumbbells because of getting in position and no help/ spotter who knows how to work with me. So barbell on a smith or a bench and get anyone to spot. Much heavier mass builders in the start of a routine for me. I've said enough on this thread ...crazy mike

Oh do you have Arnold''s Encyclopedia of modern bodybuilding 1985. Get it and learn the big exercises for mass !!

Just noticed, how are you going to go heavy, I mean heavy for you when you can't get heavy dumbbell up and in position to press. I venture ti=o say you can go much heavier with using a smith barbell press, Then you will be lighter and managable with the dumbbells

[Armykid93]

I saw in an earlier post that you sick to mostly machines on shoulders OP. Why is this?

[twitz]

Are you trap dominate? Train shoulders in front of a mirror, watch your form like you said, and make sure your traps aren't coming up to compensate for improper form or too much weight. If they are reposition, or even lighten the weight.

Could be why your traps are sore, and shoulders aren't

[oatmeal69]

Interesting, yes, I have good traps... and they're even more sore today, I didn't think my shoulder workout hit them at all.
Gives me another idea combining what Crazy Mike just said. The Smith machine @ the gym is in front of a mirror.
I do have a copy of Arnold's, and the exercise portion of it is still quite good. The diet and workout routines are outdated though. I still get pumped just reading it though.

[crazy mike]

Interesting, yes, I have good traps... and they're even more sore today, I didn't think my shoulder workout hit them at all.
Gives me another idea combining what Crazy Mike just said. The Smith machine @ the gym is in front of a mirror.
I do have a copy of Arnold's, and the exercise portion of it is still quite good. The diet and workout routines are outdated though. I still get pumped just reading it though.

I mention the book just for the critiques of how to do and how not to do. What works best and for what purpose, to what gain prominently. The geometry of the exercises. What are predominantly the big mass exercises. Free benches are better for more growth typically, but if you work alone then use it. I have never had a problem getting a good spotter in a crunch, never. So back to the book it will never be outdated for that type of sourse book. Remember it's an encyclopedia . ...crazy mike again

[Robot Body]

Heavy pressing has always done it for me. Lately I've been adding light pressing with explosive reps and a concentrated focus on rear delts.

My routine looks something like this currently

DB press- 4 X 6 reps

Smith Military- 4 X 12-15 controlling negative and exploding on positive

Cable side lats- 3 X 12-15

Rear delt row- 3 X 8-12

Rear delt raises - 3 X 8-12

18 sets might seem like a lot, but for me this routine has really sparked some new growth. As always just find what works for you, don't be afraid to experiment with different exercises, rep ranges, negatives, forced reps or anything else, and never feel like you have to do any exercise just because you feel like it's the standard.

[oatmeal69]

So, yesterday I implemented What Marcus300 has suggested, among others. I started with Smith behind-head presses. Only one set warm up, and then three to honest failure with one minute rest. I was only able to press about 60#. But, I went as heavy as I could while still making a minimum of 6 reps.
Next I did rear delts on a machine, but again I kept the rest to less than a minute. I also went palms-up with my hands, and pulled my chest in, which seemed to hit my rear delts more.
Then it was incline presses on a machine, and finally I finished out with Arnolds. Everything was done to failure, and in the case of the machines, I did half / partial reps after. (I don't like training with others)
My shoulders were tired, and still feel a bit tired today. No soreness yet, but I know that isn't necessarily a key indicator for a good workout.

[marcus300]

So, yesterday I implemented What Marcus300 has suggested, among others. I started with Smith behind-head presses. Only one set warm up, and then three to honest failure with one minute rest. I was only able to press about 60#. But, I went as heavy as I could while still making a minimum of 6 reps.
Next I did rear delts on a machine, but again I kept the rest to less than a minute. I also went palms-up with my hands, and pulled my chest in, which seemed to hit my rear delts more.
Then it was incline presses on a machine, and finally I finished out with Arnolds. Everything was done to failure, and in the case of the machines, I did half / partial reps after. (I don't like training with others)
My shoulders were tired, and still feel a bit tired today. No soreness yet, but I know that isn't necessarily a key indicator for a good workout.

This isn't what Ive said. I wouldn't do press behind the head and your doing 3 working sets, its the complete opposite of how I train. You fully warm up which maybe 2 sets of high reps then one working to set failure plus 2 forced and 2 negatives or a double drop set to failure on each drop, you can also do rest pause. You also need to learn how to go to failure and push past this pain barrier into new growth, please re-read my thread.

[oatmeal69]

So, essentially, I need a spotter who knows what they're doing...

[marcus300]

So, essentially, I need a spotter who knows what they're doing...

You need to learn how to train your shoulder properly using HIT principles,

you will need a spotter if your doing forced or negs but if you don't you can go with dropsetting or rest pause. I also wouldn't do press behind the head, its to unnatural position your better doing them from the front.

Failure also means you cant lift or do another rep no matter what, the only rep you could do is half rep then you start drop setting, rest pause or forced and negs

[oatmeal69]

Ok. I will re-read and give it another shot next week. Thanks.

[marcus300]

Ok. I will re-read and give it another shot next week. Thanks.

Yes please do, if you read the whole thread you will get an idea how I train and what I preach

[oatmeal69]

May as well post a link for anyone else curious...

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...snity-Training

[RipOwens]

While some might disagree, I don't think muscle building is dependent on DOMS. Some body parts just don't get sore as others do. Are you making strength gains? That can be a good indicator as well.

[oatmeal69]

I agree. I only mentioned DOMS because these are my first workouts after a multi-month break. I'm gaining strength, but that's because I'm getting back into it. I will be starting a cycle soon as well, which always blows my strength up.

After I get back into the swing of things, I rarely get more than a touch of DOMS anywhere except my legs. With my other muscles, I'm finding DOMS invaluable as feedback for what I'm doing right. I can remember some serious soreness in shoulders at other times in my workout life, so I know I can do better than what I'm doing. I think Marcus hits it on the head, as far as stressing the muscle beyond what's possible. I just need to learn it.

[oatmeal69]

So yesterday I did:

Machine military press
Machine extensions
Machine front delt. press
Machine rear delt. flies
Arnold press dumbells

I kept the warm-up to one set. Rest was less than 1 minute. I did 3 work sets to failure, and then quickly reduced the weight 5-10 pounds and continued to failure. I also tried for a couple partial reps. Today my traps are on fire, and my delts are sore as well.

[EKFitness]

try static holds and heavy weight negatives, squeeze at the top of your reps and really THINK about using your shoulders

good luck

[tigerspawn]

Start with heavy pressing movements at beginning of workout as a compound movement they work excellent to add on size and strength. Strict form is a must in order to help prevent injury. Next I would hit front and side lateral. I never bring weight above shoulder height. Once you do you traps engage more and it defeats the purpose of the lift. Don’t forget to pause and squeeze the shoulders at the top and lower back down to the start. Always control your weight. Don’t allow it to control you. Running the rack with these exercises will definitely give you a burn and help you grow.

[ppwc1985]

Oatmeal try wide db upright rows, just bring up to chest. I add some size just adding these and you will feel it in your side delts.

[MajorPectorial]

I agree with what is said above. You have to incorporate many things to break a plateau or to get a genetically slow muscle to build. forced positive to failure, stay on heavy set for more then one set 4-5 reps, then at intermediate weight negative, negative, negative, then drop sets and rep at the end. Mass builders I recommend. Shoulder bench first, barbell with same theory as I described, heavy. negatives and drop sets, then dumbbell flys front, rear and side. Machines best for rear delt flys. Use a spotter for forced reps. finish with cable fly work. So cheat if you need to lift at your heavy set and contract, hold and slowly down. Hold that contraction and try to relax you other body parts so you can feel what muscle you are working. Mind and muscle ,must connect with everything you train. to get the max build. ...crazy mike

****ing A. ;-) pretty much my shoulder workout right there ha! Man I burn!!

I also now incorporate "bumps" into my reps. At either most stress point (dumbbells sides both at once. Fly like.a.bird. I.e 1st rep bump at the top 6". 2nd rep 2xbump. 3rd rep 3x bump). Your shoulders will feel pumped to hell. When it hurts. U keep.that shit goin until atleast 8 rep bump. I only need 8's n 10's for these front. Side n rear flies. But I do a machine shoulder press hammer grip + bar grip. Plus dumbbell reverse press, hammer press and bar press x 3 each on everything.

Scratch ur ear!?! Ha!! U can't lift a protein shake after that.

But like it all you'll get used to it. Mix it up. Keep it fresh n ur muscles won't stagnate. Alt from literally over the top form n lighter weights to shockingly "**** this is heavy but ima do it" weights ;-)

Excuse my potty mouth ;-p