needles and ED pinning

[fireeater49]

I am gathering that when one pins himself the needle size is personal choice. I get that. For the newbie like me (4months on trt) who will be starting self pinning, if I am going the IM route what is generally the choice of needles as far as length? If I do my thighs will that be the same as my deltoids? If I am going the SQ route what is generally the choice of needles as far as length? Reading up on differences between belly SQ and thigh SQ and it seems to indicate that the thigh area is absorbed more (might be bro science but whatever). If I do ED pinning I realize the amount of test will be lower but if I understand correctly, the absorption will better than E7D and E3D, right?

As far as normal ranges goes with BW, why try to get in upper high of normal for test and the associated labs but worry about the upper high normal range of DHT, E2, etc. ? Unless I am a dummy ( some would agree with that assumption ) if labs are in the "normal" range then they are ok. Now, that is not to say not to keep an eye on them but I am looking for a simple ways of not stressing out if they are "in normal" ranges. I would appreciate the forums comments. Thanks in advance!

[fireeater49]

Any monitor want to take this on?

[2Sox]

Good questions. I'd like to see the comments that come back from the experienced members. Be patient..

[bullshark99]

Fire, needle size is pers choice to a degree. I have been pinning 2 plus yrs for the most part IM in the ass. I started with a 23 1.5 pin, now I use either 23 or 25 but only 1 inch, much less intimidating. I've pinned in the arm using the same 1 inch and have also used a 29. Half inch there, always seemed deep enough as there never was a knot.
Pinning ED, in my opinion, is overkill, micro mgmt, really do not think that is nec and would become rather tedious. Twice a week I think is more than enough. Pers I pin only once per week because I really do not feel a dif between once or twice.

Sorry a little unclear on what you are asking with lab ranges?? Many on this board, myself included, spend a great deal of time in the gym. We like to be on the top end for obvious reasons.

[booku]

I am gathering that when one pins himself the needle size is personal choice. I get that. For the newbie like me (4months on trt) who will be starting self pinning, if I am going the IM route what is generally the choice of needles as far as length? If I do my thighs will that be the same as my deltoids? If I am going the SQ route what is generally the choice of needles as far as length? Reading up on differences between belly SQ and thigh SQ and it seems to indicate that the thigh area is absorbed more (might be bro science but whatever). If I do ED pinning I realize the amount of test will be lower but if I understand correctly, the absorption will better than E7D and E3D, right?

As far as normal ranges goes with BW, why try to get in upper high of normal for test and the associated labs but worry about the upper high normal range of DHT, E2, etc. ? Unless I am a dummy ( some would agree with that assumption ) if labs are in the "normal" range then they are ok. Now, that is not to say not to keep an eye on them but I am looking for a simple ways of not stressing out if they are "in normal" ranges. I would appreciate the forums comments. Thanks in advance!

IM thighs: 5/8-1" depending on body fat %
IM delts: 5/8-1" depending on bodyfat %

SQ is really variable. some say go 25/26 gauge, others go as high as 29 gauge, but anywhere in there should be fine IMO. Needle length really comes down to personal preference and injection technique, but typically anywhere from a 5/16", 3/8", 1/2", or 5/8" pin will do.

If you are injecting long esters (enanthate, cyp) there is no reason to pin ED. Injection scheduling does not effect absorption, it effects E2 due to different peaks and trough levels of the drug in the bloodstream. It is for this reason why people inject every 3.5 days instead of weekly. Because of the half life of the drug, you get a nice saw tooth pattern in blood levels, ie. smaller peaks and bigger troughs.

Within the 'normal range' is not satisfactory for optimal health and wellbeing. The normal reference range is where 95% of the population falls within. We are trying to achieve what is optimal and not what is acceptable, two entirely different animals. And nobody in the know in TRT would say you need to be in the high end of the testosterone range. Some people feel a ton better in the middle of the range, while others feel better at the top. It all comes down to working with your doctor, follow up blood work, and diet and exercise.

[HRTstudent]

I am gathering that when one pins himself the needle size is personal choice. I get that. For the newbie like me (4months on trt) who will be starting self pinning, if I am going the IM route what is generally the choice of needles as far as length? If I do my thighs will that be the same as my deltoids? If I am going the SQ route what is generally the choice of needles as far as length? Reading up on differences between belly SQ and thigh SQ and it seems to indicate that the thigh area is absorbed more (might be bro science but whatever). If I do ED pinning I realize the amount of test will be lower but if I understand correctly, the absorption will better than E7D and E3D, right?

As far as normal ranges goes with BW, why try to get in upper high of normal for test and the associated labs but worry about the upper high normal range of DHT, E2, etc. ? Unless I am a dummy ( some would agree with that assumption ) if labs are in the "normal" range then they are ok. Now, that is not to say not to keep an eye on them but I am looking for a simple ways of not stressing out if they are "in normal" ranges. I would appreciate the forums comments. Thanks in advance!

Bodyfat matters a lot. We don't know how deep your muscle is in relation to your skin... But I was able to do intramuscular on the delts and quads with a 0.5 inch, and I used 1 inch for glutes. This was probably around 13-15% bodyfat (saw some outline of 2 or 4 abs).

SubQ absorption is really not determined as far as I'm concerned. I "notice" no difference wherever I do subQ, btu then there are some individual reports where they don't absorb well. There haven't been strong studies on this, but do realize that population statistics don't tell you what YOUR metabolism actually is - that's what matters.

I would ask, why pin every day? Are you a super fast metabolizer? The cypionate ester will significant slow down release and even every other day would provide very stable levels in almost everyone. If one had almost no SHBG, then perhaps it is worth trying.

DHT is up to the individual. I think most men are fine just getting DHT mid-range. If you want more DHT, you'll probably want to use transdermals. Monitoring E2 is critical though, at least at first to make sure you don't aromatize too much. That could lead to various things, but also is a good sign you might need to lower the T dose. It's probably impossible to "know" what your E2 level is at over the course of time if you've never had bloodwork and cannot associate symptoms with actual numbers. With time, though, you get a better feel for it.

[fireeater49]

Fire, needle size is pers choice to a degree. I have been pinning 2 plus yrs for the most part IM in the ass. I started with a 23 1.5 pin, now I use either 23 or 25 but only 1 inch, much less intimidating. I've pinned in the arm using the same 1 inch and have also used a 29. Half inch there, always seemed deep enough as there never was a knot. Thanks for the info
Pinning ED, in my opinion, is overkill, micro mgmt, really do not think that is nec and would become rather tedious. Twice a week I think is more than enough. Pers I pin only once per week because I really do not feel a dif between once or twice. Do you experience the roller coaster of hormone city?

Sorry a little unclear on what you are asking with lab ranges?? Sorry for being unclear. Many on this board, myself included, spend a great deal of time in the gym. We like to be on the top end for obvious reasons.

Agreed. If it was a grade we all want to be near the top not just passing

[fireeater49]

IM thighs: 5/8-1" depending on body fat %
IM delts: 5/8-1" depending on bodyfat %

SQ is really variable. some say go 25/26 gauge, others go as high as 29 gauge, but anywhere in there should be fine IMO. Needle length really comes down to personal preference and injection technique, but typically anywhere from a 5/16", 3/8", 1/2", or 5/8" pin will do.

If you are injecting long esters (enanthate, cyp) there is no reason to pin ED. Injection scheduling does not effect absorption, it effects E2 due to different peaks and trough levels of the drug in the bloodstream. It is for this reason why people inject every 3.5 days instead of weekly. Because of the half life of the drug, you get a nice saw tooth pattern in blood levels, ie. smaller peaks and bigger troughs.

Within the 'normal range' is not satisfactory for optimal health and wellbeing. The normal reference range is where 95% of the population falls within. We are trying to achieve what is optimal and not what is acceptable, two entirely different animals. And nobody in the know in TRT would say you need to be in the high end of the testosterone range. Some people feel a ton better in the middle of the range, while others feel better at the top. It all comes down to working with your doctor, follow up blood work, and diet and exercise.

Thanks brother!

[fireeater49]

Bodyfat matters a lot. We don't know how deep your muscle is in relation to your skin... But I was able to do intramuscular on the delts and quads with a 0.5 inch, and I used 1 inch for glutes. This was probably around 13-15% bodyfat (saw some outline of 2 or 4 abs).

SubQ absorption is really not determined as far as I'm concerned. I "notice" no difference wherever I do subQ, btu then there are some individual reports where they don't absorb well. There haven't been strong studies on this, but do realize that population statistics don't tell you what YOUR metabolism actually is - that's what matters.

I would ask, why pin every day?I just figure if pinning every 2 weeks is bad and every 3 days is better for absorption and lower amount of test needed I reasoned that a even lower amount of test applied ED would increase absorption better and even more keep E2 spikes at bay reducing the need for AI's Are you a super fast metabolizer? The cypionate ester will significant slow down release and even every other day would provide very stable levels in almost everyone. So in your opinion the EOD would be best? Matches my dietIf one had almost no SHBG, then perhaps it is worth trying.

DHT is up to the individual. I think most men are fine just getting DHT mid-range. If you want more DHT, you'll probably want to use transdermals. Monitoring E2 is critical though, at least at first to make sure you don't aromatize too much. That could lead to various things, but also is a good sign you might need to lower the T dose. It's probably impossible to "know" what your E2 level is at over the course of time if you've never had bloodwork and cannot associate symptoms with actual numbers.4 months on TRT 150mg cyp IM E10D with no AI nor HCG is a sensitive assay of 12 with range of 3-70 With time, though, you get a better feel for it.

Thank you for the continuing education

[HRTstudent]

I just figure if pinning every 2 weeks is bad and every 3 days is better for absorption and lower amount of test needed I reasoned that a even lower amount of test applied ED would increase absorption better and even more keep E2 spikes at bay reducing the need for AI's

That is true, but there is a point of diminishing returns. If you wanted to inject ED then that isn't a problem that I know of. It's just more of an inconvenience which may or may not benefit you. If it were me, I would work my way down to that point, but I found that 3 injects a week for ME gives pretty stable levels and I have low'ish SHBG as well. if I injected ED I might get slightly more stable levels, but the cost of injecting a lot more and needing to do it every day would outweigh the possible, small benefit. it's your call really though.

4 months on TRT 150mg cyp IM E10D with no AI nor HCG is a sensitive assay of 12 with range of 3-70

First of all, I would be concerned with what is your testosterone on days 6-10 with this protocol. Beyond that, the E2 appears low but may or may not be a problem. If I was truly concerned about my E2 being too low I would get a DEXA scan (checks for possible bone loss which is probably the most serious concern with lowering E2 over time) and express my concerns with a good doctor.

[bullshark99]

Fire, no I do not experience the hormonal roller coaster, perhaps I'm just used to it. I will confess I have been having a hell of a time getting my E2 dialed in just right, might have to go to twice a week by default if I fail this time.