Too many supplements (pills) - detrimental to health?

[gbrice75]

Oh, here's an update:

I started this thread with the idea in mind of LOWERING my supplement intake. Instead, I've increased it!!! Add to the already extensive list:

Acidophilus (@ each meal)
Long Jack (Eurycoma longifolia / tongkat ali / pasak bumi)
Maca (Lepidium meyenii)

Yay GB!!

[AnabolicDoc]

Thanks again for all the links and info, I love this stuff and it'll no doubt keep me busy.

Re: insulin resistance - to be perfectly honest, I've never been tested and it's my own 'self-diagnosis' simply based on (lack of) results in a controlled environment (i.e. training, strict dieting, etc.).

I have an extremely tough time adding lean muscle tissue despite having the necessary precursors in place:

Reason to adapt/grow: (i.e. intense training)
environment for growth: (i.e. caloric surplus, quality proteins/carbs/fats etc.)
Sufficient rest (questionable as to what would constitute 'sufficient', but I suppose it's rather individualistic)

However, I continue to put on bodyfat very easily. What really opened up my eyes to insulin resistance being my issue was one study (which I'll try and find) which had a single sentence that was like an epiphany for me. Paraphrasing:

"Fat cells tend to maintain their sensitivity to insulin even when muscle cells become resistant..."

This was a big 'eureka!' moment for me, because prior to this, I had no logical explanation for why my body wasn't responding favorably to training and eating to grow muscle.

I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts on this, thanks!

I need to respond in full later but just wondering if you've ever tried a TZD (thiazolidinediones), like Actos or Avandia. They work by increasing insulin sensitivity at the cellular level (fat too I think). IMO they're both terrible meds with bad side effect profiles, but Actos is the lesser of the two evils. Avandia was actually blacklisted by the FDA for the past few years and only recently are they opening distribution again. For the average type 2 diabetic there are better meds so I don't see much use for them given the sides. However, if you do in fact have insulin resistance (and elevated blood sugar levels), taking a minimal dose may be worth a discussion with your doc. The reasons you would need to have elevated blood sugar are many but most importantly bc TZDs will decrease blood sugar and potentially to dangerously low levels. Significant hypoglycemia carries a high death rate (about 25%) in diabetics at least.

One thing I don't quite understand is you're very cut and muscular (in your avi). Are you thinking that it's not proportional to your level of diet and exercise?

[gbrice75]

I need to respond in full later but just wondering if you've ever tried a TZD (thiazolidinediones), like Actos or Avandia. They work by increasing insulin sensitivity at the cellular level (fat too I think). IMO they're both terrible meds with bad side effect profiles, but Actos is the lesser of the two evils. Avandia was actually blacklisted by the FDA for the past few years and only recently are they opening distribution again. For the average type 2 diabetic there are better meds so I don't see much use for them given the sides. However, if you do in fact have insulin resistance (and elevated blood sugar levels), taking a minimal dose may be worth a discussion with your doc. The reasons you would need to have elevated blood sugar are many but most importantly bc TZDs will decrease blood sugar and potentially to dangerously low levels. Significant hypoglycemia carries a high death rate (about 25%) in diabetics at least.

I haven't taken (or even heard of until your post) eithe Actos or Avandia, but I will definitely do some research now, thanks again. I always appreciate your input and suggestions.

One thing I don't quite understand is you're very cut and muscular (in your avi). Are you thinking that it's not proportional to your level of diet and exercise?

I was probably in my best shape when that pic was taken (nearly 2 years ago), but I'd be lying if I told you I achieved that look without the aid of 'supplements'. Even then, I do feel I should have been carrying more muscle.

You hit it on the head exactly - I don't feel my physique is (anywhere near) proportional to my level of diet and exercise. To put it in perspective, I'm not much more muscular (if at all) now, nearly 2 years later, only fatter (about 14% now, 10ish in the avy). I've barely increased weight on shoulder press (as an example, seeing as shoulders are among my most lagging groups) in over 3 years. I've trained HST, GVT, GBC, and more 'standard' bodybuilding protocols. I don't feel I've ever responded better to one over any other, and said responses were all sub-par IMO.

I haven't trained HIT in years (and when I did years ago, I wasn't training properly - granted) and plan to do so in the fall, but I don't have high hopes tbh. I don't want to be disappointed once again, but we'll see!

[basketballfan22]

Gb, do you ever think that you just reached your natural limit? I know I am having a very difficult time putting on more lean mass (I don't put on fat like you are describing though), but I think the biggest reason is that I am approaching my natural limit in terms of physique. I believe bodybuilding is asymptotic (e.g. the graph f(x) = 1/x + 10 on the domain (0, ∞) ≤ R); so the closer you approach the asymptote, the MUCH slower you increase (the slope decreases). It will take a lot of effort and time to gain little muscle as opposed to early on when it takes much less effort to gain more muscle.

[AnabolicDoc]

In English, you're saying that bodybuilding demonstrates diminishing law of returns? I think most ppl would agree with you there.

[basketballfan22]

In English, you're saying that bodybuilding demonstrates diminishing law of returns? I think most ppl would agree with you there.

Lol, yes Doc. Thanks.

[gbrice75]

Gb, do you ever think that you just reached your natural limit?

I'll tell you man... if *this* is my natural limit, I'm in the wrong sport!!! lol

I know I am having a very difficult time putting on more lean mass (I don't put on fat like you are describing though), but I think the biggest reason is that I am approaching my natural limit in terms of physique. I believe bodybuilding is asymptotic (e.g. the graph f(x) = 1/x + 10 on the domain (0, ∞) ≤ R)

You do realize you're talking to a man who passed highschool level math with 70's, right?

so the closer you approach the asymptote, the MUCH slower you increase (the slope decreases). It will take a lot of effort and time to gain little muscle as opposed to early on when it takes much less effort to gain more muscle.

In English, you're saying that bodybuilding demonstrates diminishing law of returns? I think most ppl would agree with you there.

Agreed BB, I'd say it's fairly common. We've all heard about newb gains, etc. However, what I find interesting is that even when I was a newb, I didn't find myself adding muscle at any appreciable rate. For the most part, I didn't look much more muscular than I do now, it was just all covered with bodyfat. In my case, my muscle size hasn't really increased much at all, in YEARS. My muscles have 'developed' a bit (i.e. muscle 'shape', density, etc.), and I've decreased bodyfat so I look more muscular, but I really haven't truly grown in years. There's gotta be something to that!

[basketballfan22]

I'll tell you man... if *this* is my natural limit, I'm in the wrong sport!!! lol

What are your stats gb? I am 6'0, weigh ≈185 pounds, and am about 11% body fat; and I think I am getting close. I have a very fast metabolism which makes weight gain very difficult, so that is why I believe 195-ish is my limit.

You do realize you're talking to a man who passed highschool level math with 70's, right?

Lmao, I am sorry. I think mathematically; and although I could have gone without a lot of those details, I am used to being precise and omitting anything that I put would technically be incorrect. We all have our nuances though, lol.

Agreed BB, I'd say it's fairly common. We've all heard about newb gains, etc. However, what I find interesting is that even when I was a newb, I didn't find myself adding muscle at any appreciable rate. For the most part, I didn't look much more muscular than I do now, it was just all covered with bodyfat. In my case, my muscle size hasn't really increased much at all, in YEARS. My muscles have 'developed' a bit (i.e. muscle 'shape', density, etc.), and I've decreased bodyfat so I look more muscular, but I really haven't truly grown in years. There's gotta be something to that!

Ah, if your gains were small when you were new; then you are onto something.

[Rusty11]

Ha...you guys think it's tough now; just wait 'til you hit my age-51. I look in the mirror once a month and just shake my head. But, the only option is quitting and then I'll really look like crap. Hang in there, guys.

[gbrice75]

What are your stats gb? I am 6'0, weigh ?185 pounds, and am about 11% body fat; and I think I am getting close. I have a very fast metabolism which makes weight gain very difficult, so that is why I believe 195-ish is my limit.

Lmao, I am sorry. I think mathematically; and although I could have gone without a lot of those details, I am used to being precise and omitting anything that I put would technically be incorrect. We all have our nuances though, lol.

Ah, if your gains were small when you were new; then you are onto something.

I'm on my phone, so you get the 'sloppy' GB reply, not the nice clean broken up quotes.

I'm about 5'10 and a half (hey, when you're under 6ft you count every gotdamn half inch!!!), 198ish dry, roughly 13, maybe even 14%. If my conditioning were really good right now, I'd probably sit around 185 or so.

No problem with the math; maybe I'll learn something (probably not), lol

Ha...you guys think it's tough now; just wait 'til you hit my age-51. I look in the mirror once a month and just shake my head. But, the only option is quitting and then I'll really look like crap. Hang in there, guys.

This is the only thing that keeps me going Rusty. I've been down that road (spent many years in a dark place) and know where it leads, so quitting isn't an option, even if progress is mediocre at best.

[austinite]

Welcome to the wonderful world of Supplements Good to have you on board, gb!

ps. Your hormone glands and blood work will love you for Maca

[basketballfan22]

I'm on my phone, so you get the 'sloppy' GB reply, not the nice clean broken up quotes.

You crack me up gb. I will use your style for you, lol.

I'm about 5'10 and a half (hey, when you're under 6ft you count every gotdamn half inch!!!), 198ish dry, roughly 13, maybe even 14%. If my conditioning were really good right now, I'd probably sit around 185 or so.

Haha, you are not the only one that counts fractions of an inch. You should pretend you are non-American and use the metric system, then you can list your height in centimeters which is even more precise than half-inches!

You are two inches (sorry, one and a half inches) shorter than me and weigh 13 pounds more than me! I should be the one complaining.

[gbrice75]

You crack me up gb. I will use your style for you, lol.



Haha, you are not the only one that counts fractions of an inch. You should pretend you are non-American and use the metric system, then you can list your height in centimeters which is even more precise than half-inches!

You are two inches (sorry, one and a half inches) shorter than me and weigh 13 pounds more than me! I should be the one complaining.

Also a lot fatter than you, lol!