20 Years old , low test.

[Myers]

Okay so i did my bloodwork , because i planned to do puberty gyno removal operation next month, and when I got the results i was kinda shocked so here they are :

testosterone 3.88 nmol/l ...........................ref. range: 5.54 - 25.2 CLIA

beta HCG 0.18 mIU/ml .................................<2.5 CLIA

estradiol <20.0 pg/ml ................................. 0-56.0 CLIA


FSH 3.3 mIU/ml............................1.0-14.0 CLIA

LH 0.44 mIU/ml..........................0.7-7.4 CLIA

CRP 0.1 mg/l...............................<5.0 IT

prolactin (8 am) 154.3 mIU/ml.............................39-365 CLIA

prolactin (11 am) 184.0 mIU/ml

prolactin (1 pm) 197.8 mIU/ml

cortisol (8 am) 279 nmol/l................................138-690 CLIA

cortisol (6 pm) 184 nmol/l.................................69-345 CLIA

TSH 4.871 uIU/ml..................................ref range: 0.42-5.45 CLIA

FT3 2.91 pmol/l....................................2.15-6.45 CLIA

FT4 13.16 pmol/l....................................10.3-23.1 CLIA

Also my Kalium is higher than it should be , as lab assistant said 5.10 mmol/L.............................ref range: 3.50-5.10???!

Age:20
height: 191 cm
weight : 83kg current(been cutting , went from around 20%+ bf to <15%)
cycles: 0 - no cycle ever done

Tell me if i need to provide something more!

P.S. I've been feeling like crap usually, this year has been hard for me since i went to university , i feel lack of energy constantly,and now when i've seen the results i feel even worse..

[kelkel]

Your test is low as your TSH is way high and FT3 & FT4 are low (er). Yes, it's within your scale but that scale is out dated. A more modern scale is .3 - 3.0. Hypothyroidism or sub-clinical hypothyroidism can crush testosterone levels. Indicated by your low LH output. Get that fixed and your T will probably return to normal.

[Myers]

Okay so i went to endo today,before I've read your post kel , she said everything is fine except test , also my liver blood work came out weird : ALT 107 ( ref range: to 40) , AST 300( ref. range to 40) but I'm gonna do those 2 again.
When i solve that liver problem , endo wants to put me on test for some time and monitor the progress ..
Any more bw i should do?

[Myers]

Bump, anything more i should pay attention to? Is it okay my endo want's to put me on test?

[kelkel]

Get on NAC for liver support right away. Drink more water as well.

So your doc blew off the thyroid issue? Why, because it's still in that out dated range? Find another doc who will treat your thyroid first, imho.

[Myers]

Will do that about liver support.

Yeap doc blew it off , I'll tell her what you told me , it's kinda hard to find another doc in 80k population town , as far as i know she's the only proper endo around here..

Also can't find NAC atm , would liv 52 be fine?

[kelkel]

NAC is easily findable on Amazon. You'll have it in a couple days. It's a very healthy substance to take.
Start reading Stop the Thyroid Madnessâ„¢ - Hypothyroidism and thyroid mistreatment to self educate. She should as well.
Find another doc who knows thyroid. Much better than possibly putting a band aid on something that's fixable.

[Myers]

Thank you kel! I'll make this thread a little log , just to keep information on one place.

[theseus]

blood test showed secondary hypogonadism, borderline hypothyroidism and deranged liver function test. providing you are not abusing alcohol and no previous gear use...further investigations are needed
mildly raised kalium (aka potassium) is acceptable, could be diet related providing your eGFR is normal. your cortisol is normal, so no signs of addison disease (low cortisol)
report showed possible multi-endoscrine deficit with deranged LFT
I will ask for
thyroid autoantibodies
ferritin
full blood count

haemochromatosis can give similar pictures, a genetic disorder but not too common. check your ferritin, if raised, needs fasting transferrin saturation.

[Myers]

UPDATE.

I solved my liver problems , enzymes are back to normal again. I didn't have net for some time so i couldn't check on the topic.

Anyway , i went to the urologist to take a look at my testicles , everything's fine , so i went to the Endo again .

She wants to prescribe me 500 mg test every 3 weeks?! (As far as i know it should be 150 mg every week) - 1st problem

And that would be for 3 months(is that enough and can it cause any good at all?!). - 2nd problem

When i mentioned my low t3,t4 and high tsh ( i took kelkel's advice ) she said she could treat that too and that it might cause low test - duh , but until i mentioned it she said nothing about it. - so i got confused , she told me to do 1 more BW in a month and come back then so she can prescribe the test and etc..

I'm not really happy with her so far , I'm going to the capital city next week , gonna make an appointment with endo there to see if he's any good .

I'm getting kinda desperate , thinking to start self treatment , since I'm studying molecular biology , i had to learn endocrinology too(for 1 semester) so i'm not really going blindly into it , I can get t3 over the counter and i can get test too over the counter , i got a relative in pharmacy .

In case i don't find a decent endo , should i start to self treat(I'm so moody and without energy that it's horrible , also my libido sucks atm)?

I'm hoping for some guidance from you guys(especially kel if possible) since things are stuck for me.

[ripped_82]

Bud - No need to self treat as you want to monitor all levels / what's going on as you react to various medications

You're better off going into a larger town every 2 months to review blood work with a solid endo until you get your levels in check. Once levels are in check, you'll only need to do blood work / meet with your endo semi-annually.

Lastly, start with a process of elimination, meaning, get your thyroid in line first before you hit the Test as there's a direct correlation

Best of luck

[ripped_82]

Also, starting dose is 100mg injected weekly. Many split the 100mg's X 2 per week as an FYI.

Do not do what she mentioned above! (500mg every 3 weeks, nuts)

[Myers]

Thank you for the answer!

I meant to start self treat in case that I don't find a decent doc even in the bigger city.

I got an appointment on Tuesday , will see how it goes .

[kelkel]

Good advice from Ripped above. As I said above, find the issue and fix it. Do not just jump on TRT. When it comes to thyroid be sure get a full thyroid panel to include at a minimum:

TSH
FT3
FT4
RT3
Antibodies

And again, any doc trying to prescribe test in the manner you stated is way off base and does not understand hormones, at all. Do not let this person treat you. When it comes to finding another doc there are search engines available to help. Also, IMHO a Urologist would be a better choice than an Endo. But overall it's simply a doc who understands hormones and your thyroid. Title doesn't really matter.

You are to young to consider TRT, barring an obvious pathology or other serious issue. Do not self-treat.

[Myers]

Thank you for the answer kel.

Ofc i don't want to let this doc treat me , that's why i came here .

I'm gonna do that thyroid panel , and see what i can do from there , problem is i live in Serbia , and people are not that open minded here , so it's kinda hard to find the right doc.

All i want is the normal level of testosterone for the 20 year old guy . Even if it means TRT for life i'd rather pin every week than feel like a lifeless , moody , depressed , no energy, low libido "thing"(I don't even feel like a man anymore). I doubt it can be worse than this...

[kelkel]

No doubt you feel like shit. That said, you don't want to pin for 60 years either. Be as patient as possible and find the cause and fix it. All of us here will try to help and support you.

[Myers]

True, okay I'm gonna keep this thread as my log and update it frequently with new infos.

[Myers]

UPDATE!!!

Okay so i went to a new endo on Wednesday , and it seems he's one smart dude!

He told me to do some more bw(free test , antibodies ) , he told me i can do TRT if i want to but , he'd suggest fixing my thyroid(depends on bw) , he also wants me to do magnetic resonance of hipophysis , and he wants to put me on clomi for some time and see how that's gonna work out.

[Myers]

Free Test 5.2 pg/ml ................ ref. range 2.6 - 9.8 ELISA

Anti TPO 14 IU/ml ...................... <35 CLIA

BW of free test and antibodies, how does it look?

[kelkel]

Free test still low imho. You want it near the top of the scale if at all possible. That said, it all comes back to how you feel. You're not a number.

[Myers]

I feel like shit , I'm constantly depressed , i can sleep for 12h every day and still feel tired , i got no energy , my concentration is bad...

I talked with my parents cause I'm still living with them when I'm not on uni, they support me in this , a lot.

So what do you think kel , should i take the doc's clomi therapy or should i go straight to TRT?

Pinning is not a problem , anything goes if it's gonna make me feel better.

[Myers]

Okay so i got prescribed 25 mg clomid ED for 3 months.

What do you guys think about that?

[kelkel]

What about your thyroid issues?

[Myers]

Well i told him about it , but he decided to do it this way , I'm gonna go to do a magnetic resonance of pituitary gland as he said , maybe i can give him a few valuable links as he's a really good guy and will probably read it , it seems like no one here takes the thyroid thing seriously , and I just can't search for another doc now ( I don't think i can get better one than this ) . I mean even for clomid he said it's "experimental" since he read studies about it helping the issue , but it's still not an official treatment here, so he can't prescribe me clomid but as you can get most of the things over the counter here it's no problem , i already bought tons of it for something like 3$ each box.

My country sucks...this doc is pretty young and open minded so if I keep up with him I think I can get a decent treatment, others are old school and I don't think that's a good idea.

[Juced_porkchop]

Will do that about liver support.

Yeap doc blew it off , I'll tell her what you told me , it's kinda hard to find another doc in 80k population town , as far as i know she's the only proper endo around here..

Also can't find NAC atm , would liv 52 be fine?

I get NAC from ar-r now that they have it. good stuff.

[Myers]

I get NAC from ar-r now that they have it. good stuff.

Well i solved the liver problems , i know the arr is the best out there , but shipping to Serbia is not really cheap , I guess I'm just gonna go with liv52 in case it happens again or travel to neighbor country to get NAC(still gonna be cheaper).

[jimmyinkedup]

Well i solved the liver problems , i know the arr is the best out there , but shipping to Serbia is not really cheap , I guess I'm just gonna go with liv52 in case it happens again or travel to neighbor country to get NAC(still gonna be cheaper).

Look into UDCA as well. Im not sure of availability where you are but it is excellent as well for liver support and treating damaged liver

[David LoPan]

Nothing to do with your problem due to your getting great advice, but I would take that test RX and save that stuff up for when you do want to run a cycle.

[Myers]

Okay so after 6 weeks of taking clomid i went to a local lab to do bw(i kinda wanted to see the progress) , and what came out was ..well weird

Testosterone 30.10 nmol/l ........................... ref.range 5.54 - 25.2 CLIA

Free Testosterone 19.4 pg/ml .........................ref.range 2.6-9.8 ELISA

Looks like i've been responding to my therapy a bit too well

Any thoughts ?

P.S: I still got month and a half of therapy ..

[Myers]

anyone?

[qscgugcsq]

Its not weird result...

Clomid do its jobs...

How you feel with these level?

[Myers]

Well I don't feel that much different to be honest I mean when i was going to get my blood work done , i thought like it my free test probably jumped a bit and so did overall test ..but when i've seen this lol my eyes popped out .

Things that got better: sleep(it usually took me from 1h to 2h to start sleeping , now I do it in around 10 mins) ,

energy ( I still don't feel this that much) ,

libido(never had a problem,it seems the same) ,

strength ( seems to have gone up , I haven't been able to workout this moth, 1st i went on vacation and then when i came back i got sick and i'm still trying to get rid of the infection),

the mild depression that comes with low test(seems i feel a bit better now).

[Far from massive]

Hey just found this thread.

MAKE SURE TO READ THE LAST PART OF MY POST

Really glad to see you posted here and got good advice from Kel on your labs instead of winding up on TRT for the rest of your life!

The free test is what you would expect for your clomid therapy.

As far as how you feel it will take time for the body to make all of the other adjustments needed to effect the changes you desire.



BUT ONE thing that has not been addressed, that I would have looked at right away. You took liver support and addressed your liver enzyme results, however you did not ever look to see WHY they were high to begin with. This IMO is never a good move you need to ensure that you do not have any sort of issue like HCV (HepC) as this will cause the exact problems you are describing (I know from experience) even though you may have decent values while on liver support, the fatigue caused by HepC and other liver problems will still be present in many cases.

Hang in there, and hopefully your liver values were temporary and the result of another issue like fighting a flu virus etc.

FFM

[Myers]

Hey @Far From Massive,

I actually didn't even take liv52 , i just went like 5 days later and did bw again for those liver enzymes , and everything was OK, it could be because i drank some crappy energy drink a night before my exam so i could study.

Anyway , i'm gonna do bw to check out those enzymes again in a month and a half when i'm done with clomid.

I didn't do bw for those now because i'm under infection of some sorts , my groin hurts and the pain drops down to my tight(inner part) - i checked for hernia and I don't have it , I'm really concerned about this one because a year ago i had epididimytis , it took me months to get rid of it and it left a scar on my left testis.

Now most of these doctors here are total morons so after third appointment and an ultrasound and bw done, they still got no clue what's infected , I'm going again on monday to hope to resolve this so i can go back to the gym.

[Myers]

Anyway guess i should update this, I've got appointment with doc in like 20 days or so , my test did increase but I don't feel that much better yet , i got more strength , seems my cut goes a bit faster , I've still got mood problems and my libido is the same as before clomid, mostly I'm concerned about what's gonna happen after i stop taking clomid, i don't wanna face the low test lvls again, I'm kinda thinking about going with regular trt testosterone protocol, I can pin at home , thats no problem since parents got experience with giving vaccines and stuff like that.

Also i'm gonna ask for something to boost up my t3/t4 a bit since i think the ranges i had before are low . I mean they are on the lower line of that outdated scale so I'm practically hypothyroid , any suggestions how to convince a doc?

[Myers]

Anyone?

[kelkel]

Anyway guess i should update this, I've got appointment with doc in like 20 days or so , my test did increase but I don't feel that much better yet , i got more strength , seems my cut goes a bit faster , I've still got mood problems and my libido is the same as before clomid, mostly I'm concerned about what's gonna happen after i stop taking clomid, i don't wanna face the low test lvls again, I'm kinda thinking about going with regular trt testosterone protocol, I can pin at home , thats no problem since parents got experience with giving vaccines and stuff like that.

Also i'm gonna ask for something to boost up my t3/t4 a bit since i think the ranges i had before are low . I mean they are on the lower line of that outdated scale so I'm practically hypothyroid , any suggestions how to convince a doc?

Hi Myers. Convince your doc with facts. Visit the site I initially advised (stopthethyroidmadness.com) or others, and print out relevant info. Don't do it from memory as it sucks to walk out of your appt and realize you forgot an important point!

It's been a while since your original post. How about new thyroid BW before you embark on treatment? You should see where you currently are. If you get that straight, come off clomid and still feel like crap and BW backs that up, then maybe it's time for HRT.

[Myers]

Sure , I'm doing an MRI scan of pituitary gland next week , gonna bring that along with bw of my test and thyroid to the doc.

Also im gonna print out important stuff from that site, let's see how it goes , i'll update it when I do the MRI scan

[kelkel]

Great idea. PM me when you post results in case I miss it.

[Myers]

A little update : Got my MRI scan results , my pituitary is fine , got a little cyst (1.8 mm diameter) on Rathke's cleft.

Did bloodwork , w8ing to get that now , doc scheduled on monday next week.

Since I'm on cut for 7 weeks now , I've noticed i get water bloated quite easily , my fat loss is faster than before clomid therapy , but my metabolism still seems quite slow.

Regards , another update coming on monday.