Sustanon and PCT - have we got it wrong?

[Jedi1337]

I came to this board to find out how to do PCT, to talk about using steriods, and to understand what is happening biologically when we take them.

Overwhelmingly - on this board and on others - PCT is recommended approx 3 weeks after the last pin.

From doing my own reading and research, it is evident that undecanoate - with its long half-life - will have its effect on the body for up to 3 months after the last pin. Depending on your dosage, i did some math and levels will remain supraphysiological for most of that time. Im not an expert and my math could be wrong, but just looking at some of these studies of undec in men shows the downstream psychological and behavioural effects going on for considerable time post-pin.

In this particular study (link below), the protocol shows the TE (test enanthate) group had theirs administered every 3 weeks. For the TU (test undecanoate) group, up to 12 weeks apart.

http://www.eje-online.org/content/160/5/815.full.pdf

My conclusion from this is that most of the guidance given on PCT for sust is potentially incorrect. By the time most people will come out of their PCT - say weeks 7-9 post pin - there is a high probability that test levels are still supraphysiological, leading to a reversion to a "shutdown" scenario, albeit at the thin end of the wedge. Perhaps the 3 week guidance is suitable for enanthate, but not sust, due to the undecanoate component. Moreover, where people recommend "3 months" (yes I know some of you will say "do bloods") between cycles, it would be the case with sust that actually there has been no break and users will be inadvertently abusing steroids.

Open to fierce and objective debate on this matter

[Back In Black]

Is this the TRT study? That uses 1g of test u per shot? If so that isn't comparable with the relatively paltry amount present in sust.

[Jedi1337]

not so quickly. Undec is the biggest of the 4 esters present in sust - 100mg. If you are taking 500mg test per week that is 1g undec in 5 weeks and growing.

[Back In Black]

not so quickly. Undec is the biggest of the 4 esters present in sust - 100mg. If you are taking 500mg test per week that is 1g undec in 5 weeks and growing.

Growing and shrinking because of its half life. Part of the reason test u works at 12 week intervals for TRT is the volume of it. A 4ml 'globule' releases much slower than if that same 4ml were split into different injection sites.

[Jedi1337]

Growing and shrinking because of its half life. Part of the reason test u works at 12 week intervals for TRT is the volume of it. A 4ml 'globule' releases much slower than if that same 4ml were split into different injection sites.

Maybe... but shorten its activity enough to still recommend a 3 week post-pin PCT? If you can reference any studies on test pharmacokenetics in relation to injection volume, that would be useful.

[Back In Black]

If you search Nebido you should find info relating to it. Test u normally has a half life of 16 days, that's not the case with a 4ml/1g injection.

Look under 5.2 and the elimination section here

https://www.medicines.org.uk/emc/medicine/15661

[Buster Brown]

I known this isn't scientific but it seems like there has always been a bit of debate over pct start times so to me it just makes sense to extend your pct by two weeks.

[MusclemaniaTony]

So potentially we have to start PCT 12 weeks after last injection of sus? Would it be the same for deca? Deca is known to shut you down for a long time due to its long half life.

[kelkel]

So potentially we have to start PCT 12 weeks after last injection of sus? Would it be the same for deca? Deca is known to shut you down for a long time due to its long half life.

Deca is not testosterone.

[Jedi1337]

If you search Nebido you should find info relating to it. Test u normally has a half life of 16 days, that's not the case with a 4ml/1g injection.

Look under 5.2 and the elimination section here

https://www.medicines.org.uk/emc/medicine/15661

It says "gradually" released but this gives us no indication of relative absorption. Ideally, we'd need empirically-derived data with figures to understand this issue precisely. However, at this stage id still argue that the 3 week post-pin start for PCT should not be a blanket approach. Think about it... by week 12 on a 500mg p/w dosage, you've consumed 2400mgs of undecanoate, the vast majority of which will still be floating around somewhere - bumcheek or bloodstream...

[kelkel]

So then experiment. Pull BW and check levels at whatever interval's you feel prudent and determine your pct start time based on your own labs.

[BG]

Bingo ! Stop guessing.

[Red Bastard]

Another good reason to stick with single esters for a cycle.

[Buster Brown]

So then experiment. Pull BW and check levels at whatever interval's you feel prudent and determine your pct start time based on your own labs.

I absolutely love this response. Perfect answer .......argument is moot.

[Jedi1337]

I absolutely love this response. Perfect answer .......argument is moot.

While there me be some value in me doing it personally as an individual, you cant beat good old empirical data. That is just how science is done...and especially since it is not me giving out the advice around here, it wouldn't be appropriate to use my data.

[Jedi1337]

Bingo ! Stop guessing.

take your time to read what has been posted and perhaps contribute something of value. Back In Black has come up with some sound counter-arguments in this thread, which is great for us all to grow our understanding of steriod use.

I dont claim to have the answers, but IMO this thread warrants discussion because of the implications if we are getting it wrong.

[kelkel]

While there me be some value in me doing it personally as an individual, you cant beat good old empirical data. That is just how science is done...and especially since it is not me giving out the advice around here, it wouldn't be appropriate to use my data.

You are the one questioning what is currently accepted and you're not always going to find empirical data, therefore if you are the one considering this cycle and subsequent pct then it's absolutely appropriate to use your own data. How can learning what works for your own body not be beneficial?

[Jedi1337]

Like i said, there may well be some value in me doing it personally. However the original post had a more general goal in mind. Studying myself simply will not have the statistical power to generalise.

[NACH3]

Anecdotal evidence assists scientific research... Do I don't understand why you wouldn't.... It seems that's what you want is proof but this is the best we have unless people experiment... That's Science!

[Jedi1337]

It says "gradually" released but this gives us no indication of relative absorption. Ideally, we'd need empirically-derived data with figures to understand this issue precisely. However, at this stage id still argue that the 3 week post-pin start for PCT should not be a blanket approach. Think about it... by week 12 on a 500mg p/w dosage, you've consumed 2400mgs of undecanoate, the vast majority of which will still be floating around somewhere - bumcheek or bloodstream...

So you are right, there is some difference in the half-life as a result of injection volume. If you look at the abstract below, the half life of undec at 500mg and 1000mg injections is 18.3+/-2.3 and 23.7+/-2.7 respectively. There had to be some science on this somewhere. A pharmacokinetic study of injectable testosterone undecanoate in h... - PubMed - NCBI

Just for the love of learning, it was interesting to see that the oil in which test comes in can also have (quite a large) effect on half-life. See here: Intramuscular injection of testosterone undecanoate for the treatme... - PubMed - NCBI

As you suggest, it wouldnt be appropriate to generalise from the original study I posted. Nevertheless, while undeca may not exert its effects for quite as long for athletes as opposed to trt patients, it still seems that the blanket 3-week guidance for PCT is inappropriate. People taking sust would be at recovery disadvantage because they are starting to reboot their system when undeca levels are still high.