What testosterone level result would make you reduce your dosage?

[anoxicblaze]

Hi,

What testosterone level would you consider to be too high for the body to handle without consequences? In ng/dl (others confuse me)

I understand 1200 ng/dl is possible naturally, so should we assume that anything over that is risky and it's time to lower your weekly dosage? Or more like 900?

Right now I am 286 ng/dl (45 years old). I start my TRT next week.

Thanks

[Grappler13]

The natural spectrum is wide. I've cruised at 500 and 1000 and 1500, blasted up to the 5000s. I feel best on 1500ng/dl. Every so slightly Supra natural which for me is almost 1250ng/dl more than I was pre TRT.


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[anoxicblaze]

You feel best but is it good for you? I feel amazing on MDMA! Ha.

[MuscleScience]

You feel best but is it good for you? I feel amazing on MDMA! Ha.

And your worried about side effects of T?

[kelkel]

Don't worry about total T, worry about your free T. Free is what does the work for you. With TRT more isn't always better.
Try to find a dosage that keeps your free T in the upper 3rd of the range or so if possible.
Monitor blood work to assess need for an AI. If a slight titration down allows you to avoid using an AI, try to do so.
Monitor your hematocrit level and donate blood if needed. Similar to above, a slight titration can often times avoid this.

Make sure your TRT includes HCG if possible. If not, do your research on it here and you'll see why it should.
AI's should not be added until your first set of blood work is assessed, normally about 6 weeks later.
Begin maintaining copies of all your BW from this point forward.

Exactly what is the planned protocol?

[anoxicblaze]

Mmmm. Interesting comments that challenge the procedure I had planned.
I wasn't interested in using HCG as I'm going to be on TRT for life and have no plans to have children. Amusingly, my balls are big and hang low, despite my 286 level. I'm actually looking forward to them shrinking. Ha ha.

I'm doing TRT not just because of the number but because I have symptoms relating to it. Zero erections, depression etc. SSRI's have not been my friend.

I have been training in the gym since I was 18. I am 45 now. I am the strongest person in my gym. I am not even close to being the most muscular though, which may be linked to my T levels. We shall see.

I was planning on taking just 0.5 AI every other day because I have higher than normal body fat. I understand having more body fat can leave one vulnerable to higher estrogen levels. Maybe I should only take them after I have estrogen level tests done. That makes sense.

Why do you say donate blood? Do they have to do a full test when you do this? If so, can you access their results? If that's the case it's a great idea. Or do you mean 'donate blood' as in 'get a test'?

[anoxicblaze]

And your worried about side effects of T?

Only on my birthday!

[Youthful55guy]

Assuming you are using T-cyp or T-eth, both of which have similar pharmacokinetics when they are molecular weight adjusted (194 mg T-eth delivers the same amount of T as 200 mg T-cyp).


If you are injecting 200 mg of T-cyp once per week (a very common protocol), and you are drawing blood for the lab at day 7 just prior to your next injection, then you peak T level on day 2 will be about 650 ng/dL higher. So a level of 900 on day 7 means that your will be peaking out at about 900 + 650 = 1550 ng/dL on day 2, which is superphysiologic. This is why I advocate (and use) more frequent and smaller doses (40 mg every 3 days) which equates to about 93 mg on a weekly basis. This level will keep you in a more stead state and constantly within physiologic range. It also has the added benefit of being able to use smaller needle. I use a single unit 28G insulin syringe to draw up and inject 0.2 mL every 3 days. The entire process takes less than 2 minutes.

[kelkel]

Mmmm. Interesting comments that challenge the procedure I had planned.
I wasn't interested in using HCG as I'm going to be on TRT for life and have no plans to have children. Amusingly, my balls are big and hang low, despite my 286 level. I'm actually looking forward to them shrinking. Ha ha.

HCG is far more than fertility and shrinkage. Take some time and read the sticky thread at the top of this forum. Maintaining testicular function is something most feel is quite important for over all health. I can't think of a body part I'd let wither away and lose function...

I'm doing TRT not just because of the number but because I have symptoms relating to it. Zero erections, depression etc. SSRI's have not been my friend.

Exactly why you should then. It's your time and you'll be amazed at the progress you can make with restored, optimal T levels. Just be patient.

I have been training in the gym since I was 18. I am 45 now. I am the strongest person in my gym. I am not even close to being the most muscular though, which may be linked to my T levels. We shall see.

It will make a big difference over time.

I was planning on taking just 0.5 AI every other day because I have higher than normal body fat. I understand having more body fat can leave one vulnerable to higher estrogen levels. Maybe I should only take them after I have estrogen level tests done. That makes sense.

Higher body fat % will make a difference as you noted. How much is for lab work to show. Assess where your E2 is currently and if near the top of scale you may consider a low dose AI. But in no way is that much needed. .5 eod would be more fitting to a 750 mg per week cycle. I'd suggest splitting whatever dose you start with to twice per week, this help mitigate T to E turnover and will also maintain more consistent T levels for you. If an AI is immediately needed consider maybe .25 on the day of each injection only. Then assess with blood work in 6 weeks. Even 4 weeks is fine.

Why do you say donate blood? Do they have to do a full test when you do this? If so, can you access their results? If that's the case it's a great idea. Or do you mean 'donate blood' as in 'get a test'?

TRT is known to effect RBC's. To many RBC's = thick blood (hematocrit) which is unhealthy and can be dangerous if it gets out of hand and to high (read-Polycythemia). So what I'm referring to is donating blood at a blood bank. Good for you and good for society. Win-Win.

[kelkel]

Assuming you are using T-cyp or T-eth, both of which have similar pharmacokinetics when they are molecular weight adjusted (194 mg T-eth delivers the same amount of T as 200 mg T-cyp).


If you are injecting 200 mg of T-cyp once per week (a very common protocol), and you are drawing blood for the lab at day 7 just prior to your next injection, then you peak T level on day 2 will be about 650 ng/dL higher. So a level of 900 on day 7 means that your will be peaking out at about 900 + 650 = 1550 ng/dL on day 2, which is superphysiologic. This is why I advocate (and use) more frequent and smaller doses (40 mg every 3 days) which equates to about 93 mg on a weekly basis. This level will keep you in a more stead state and constantly within physiologic range. It also has the added benefit of being able to use smaller needle. I use a single unit 28G insulin syringe to draw up and inject 0.2 mL every 3 days. The entire process takes less than 2 minutes.

Always good stuff YG!

[anoxicblaze]

Do you not have to tell them you are injecting testosterone if you volunteer to donate blood?

[anoxicblaze]

Always good stuff YG!

So you feel the standard 250mg of test-e per week is too much for TRT? You would half what I have planned?

[MuscleScience]

Only on my birthday!

Only day I worry is on Fathers Day.

[kelkel]

Do you not have to tell them you are injecting testosterone if you volunteer to donate blood?

No. Scripted testosterone for TRT is perfectly legal. It has no bearing on donating blood. Test is test, be it endogenously produced or exogenously injected.

So you feel the standard 250mg of test-e per week is too much for TRT? You would half what I have planned?

250mgs per week is not "standard" anywhere other than with some clinics who make more money when they sell more. Larger doses simply equal more problems when starting out. An average starting dose would be 100 mgs per week or so. Then titrate at first BW based on results and symptoms.

[EDCG19]

delete

[anoxicblaze]

No. Scripted testosterone for TRT is perfectly legal. It has no bearing on donating blood. Test is test, be it endogenously produced or exogenously injected.




250mgs per week is not "standard" anywhere other than with some clinics who make more money when they sell more. Larger doses simply equal more problems when starting out. An average starting dose would be 100 mgs per week or so. Then titrate at first BW based on results and symptoms.

125mg it is then. Thanks. Maybe this is why vials come in 100mg from the chemist (I am told) and 250mg on the black market.

[kelkel]

125mg it is then. Thanks. Maybe this is why vials come in 100mg from the chemist (I am told) and 250mg on the black market.

Great choice. I still highly recommend splitting it into two injections per week as stated in post 9.

[Youthful55guy]

So you feel the standard 250mg of test-e per week is too much for TRT? You would half what I have planned?

Though others here may disagree with me, I think 250 mg weekly is way, way too much and you will eventually have problems with polycythemia (excessive red blood cell production). I doubt that at that dose your maximum allowable blood donations will be sufficient to correct for it. You will need to get a script for more frequent donations. This will then probably cascade into other problems (such as thyroid), since you will be taxing your body's iron supply unless you do supplementation and monitor iron and ferritin levels. You also risk other side-effects such as excessive aromatizing to E2 and will need to monitor it too and use appropriate drugs to counteract it.

I highly recommend that lower and more frequent dosing.

[anoxicblaze]

Great choice. I still highly recommend splitting it into two injections per week as stated in post 9.

Right now I can't do that as I have 1ml vials. Each 250mg. This also mean halving it will waste half of each vial, which is a shame.

[kelkel]

Right now I can't do that as I have 1ml vials. Each 250mg. This also mean halving it will waste half of each vial, which is a shame.

Easy fix. Buy some sterile vials on the internet and simply transfer it into them. Research chem sites have them.

[MuscleScience]

Though others here may disagree with me, I think 250 mg weekly is way, way too much and you will eventually have problems with polycythemia (excessive red blood cell production). I doubt that at that dose your maximum allowable blood donations will be sufficient to correct for it. You will need to get a script for more frequent donations. This will then probably cascade into other problems (such as thyroid), since you will be taxing your body's iron supply unless you do supplementation and monitor iron and ferritin levels. You also risk other side-effects such as excessive aromatizing to E2 and will need to monitor it too and use appropriate drugs to counteract it.

I highly recommend that lower and more frequent dosing.

250ml is a very tolerable dosage. I doubt he would have much if any problems at that level. Of Course an A.I. Should be ran though.

[anoxicblaze]

I have bought some 2ml vials. So I'm prepared for whichever amount I opt to take.

[Chicagotarsier]

Hi,

What testosterone level would you consider to be too high for the body to handle without consequences? In ng/dl (others confuse me)

I understand 1200 ng/dl is possible naturally, so should we assume that anything over that is risky and it's time to lower your weekly dosage? Or more like 900?

Right now I am 286 ng/dl (45 years old). I start my TRT next week.

Thanks

Same stats as me when I jumped into TrT. My level was 68 ng/dl

100-125 ml/week is where most find their happy spot that self medicate. You are starting at the right spot. Technically you will not find a medical book that is approved teaching guidelines that will start you that high. Following hospital procedures from most books they start you at 25ml/week. The books list 50 ml/week as maximum dosage for treatment. They do not account for "how you feel" just putting you in range. 50 ml of real test (you have to calculate out the ester weight) will put you around 650+ total test. They will try to treat Free Test as another issue and not one solved by more testosterone.

Did the Doc start an AI or not for your TrT?

Good luck on your path.

[kelkel]

250ml is a very tolerable dosage. I doubt he would have much if any problems at that level. Of Course an A.I. Should be ran though.

No doubt it's tolerable but without question it's not an appropriate starting dose for TRT, imho anyway. Always best to start lower and titrate up based on BW than to start high and then have to mitigate the issues, E2, Hema, etc.

[anoxicblaze]

What are your thoughts on storing the surplus test from the amp in the syringe itself for next time? After all, it should be sterile and air tight.

[Youthful55guy]

What are your thoughts on storing the surplus test from the amp in the syringe itself for next time? After all, it should be sterile and air tight.

I think it will work just fine. I've preloaded syringes for long vacations in the past with no issues at all.

BTW, I still believe that 250 mg per week is not a sustainable dose. I find that advice in this forum is often conflicted between those doing TRT for "health" purposes and recreational bodybuilding. I think Kel hit the mark dead on by saying you should start low and work up. My advice is to stay within physiological ranges for Free T. If you happen to have high SHBG levels (as I do), you may need to exceed physiological levels to maintain an adequate Free T level.

[Grappler13]

Easy fix. Buy some sterile vials on the internet and simply transfer it into them. Research chem sites have them.

Yes, please either place the excess into a sterile vial or go ahead and fill another syringe with the extra. Don't waste that stuff.


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[jwh7699]

I personally wouldn't store leftover Test in a syringe. Easier for it to leak out. Someone curious, what's in there and accidentally sticks themselves.

I just leave the left over Test in the vial it came in. Swab the top with an alcohol wipe before injecting, all set. Do a little math in your head and you'll know how much you took out and how much is left. If you're forgetful, write it on the side of the vial.

Personally I don't refrigerate my Test C. It's a fairly thick liquid and cooling it will only make it thicker, then you have to wait for it to warm up. Also in colder environment in the Fridge, the liquids can separate which has been known to sting when injecting. (Do not stick it in the Microwave ) Room temperature is fine.

[anoxicblaze]

I've ordered some vials but for now I have no choice but to use a syringe as I'm using amps. Speaking of amps...I wasn't expecting the glass to explode in my hands. I've ordered an amp opener on ebay.

Did my first injection one hour ago. Easy peasy!
Wasn't expecting it to slide in so easily. I've never pushed a needle in myself before. Always been done by a nurse.
I opted for 125mg after the advice above.

Do you think I need the Anastrozole on such a small amount of test? What harm can it do if I only take 0.5mg every other day?

[jwh7699]

Me personally I inject Test C 2 x 70mg, 2 x 250mg of HCG, 2 x .25 Arimidex.

125mg is not a small dose. I inject 140mg total.

I'm assuming you are injecting 125mg of Test 2 x a week?

You will need an AI at that dose. .5mg eod would be too much IMO. At a higher dose you have a bigger chance of shutting down your Estradiol completely which can have similar side effects if your E2 was too high. Ideally you want your E2 around 30. Not too High, Not Too Low.

You basically have two choices.

You can inject 125mg of Test 2 x a week for 4 weeks then go get Blood Work. Total T, Free T, Estradiol-Sensitive.
and then dose the AI based on how much your Estradiol level is at.

Second option would be too take .25mg of an AI 2 x a week. Preferably on Test injection days, just easier to remember that way. And then get the same Blood Work done in 4 weeks.

With the 2nd option, if your numbers come back good you don't need anymore blood work done for a few months. The first option you would need additional blood work done 4 weeks after the AI was started.

Yeah Ampules are a pain.

I have bought Vials on Amazon.

[MuscleScience]

No doubt it's tolerable but without question it's not an appropriate starting dose for TRT, imho anyway. Always best to start lower and titrate up based on BW than to start high and then have to mitigate the issues, E2, Hema, etc.

Oh, guess I missed he was doing TRT instead of cycling.

[anoxicblaze]

Me personally I inject Test C 2 x 70mg, 2 x 250mg of HCG, 2 x .25 Arimidex.

125mg is not a small dose. I inject 140mg total.

I'm assuming you are injecting 125mg of Test 2 x a week?

You will need an AI at that dose. .5mg eod would be too much IMO. At a higher dose you have a bigger chance of shutting down your Estradiol completely which can have similar side effects if your E2 was too high. Ideally you want your E2 around 30. Not too High, Not Too Low.

You basically have two choices.

You can inject 125mg of Test 2 x a week for 4 weeks then go get Blood Work. Total T, Free T, Estradiol-Sensitive.
and then dose the AI based on how much your Estradiol level is at.

Second option would be too take .25mg of an AI 2 x a week. Preferably on Test injection days, just easier to remember that way. And then get the same Blood Work done in 4 weeks.

With the 2nd option, if your numbers come back good you don't need anymore blood work done for a few months. The first option you would need additional blood work done 4 weeks after the AI was started.

Yeah Ampules are a pain.

I have bought Vials on Amazon.

Right now I'm doing 125mg once a week (test e) but now I know how easy injecting is I could change it to say 2 x 70mg. That said, the measurements on my syringes are not that precise. It won't be a consistent accurate dose.

I like option 2. Blood tests are costing me a small fortune. Trying to request specific blood tests for free with my GP is hard work. All I get is "you don't need all these" or "why do you think you need them?"

[jwh7699]

Where do you inject it?

Have you already purchased an AI?

Yeah, most Docs drag their feet on the correct Blood Work. If you go to a TRT Clinic they are better about ordering the right blood work, but most don't take insurance so everything is out of pocket.

PrivateMDLabs.com

Discountedlabs.com

These are the blood work ordering sites that most people here use.

[anoxicblaze]

Injected into the side of my left thigh. I prefer to use two hands and to be able to see it going in. I already have the AI, yes.
I enquired about clinics and cost today (UK). Too expensive for me. I can't use those links, being in the UK but we have MediChecks, which isn't too bad. It costs £49 for total/free testosterone, oestradiol and SHBG. £239 in my local private medical centre. That's just ridiculous.

[jwh7699]

Ok, so you don't need a heavy duty syringe. I personally inject in my stomach with an insulin needle/syringe. Insulin syringe's usually have pretty good markings on the side for measuring.

Being in the UK your options for purchasing will be a lot different than the US, but the dosing is Universal.

Just make sure the blood test is the Estradiol - Sensitive one.

Sensitive for Men, plain Estradiol test without the word Sensitive is for Women.

[kelkel]

Do you think I need the Anastrozole on such a small amount of test? What harm can it do if I only take 0.5mg every other day?

If you are still planning on running 250 mgs per week then it's not really a small amount of test. 250 mgs per week is really an unrealistic dose for long term health. Add in the fact that you have zero experience and you're simply a side effect waiting to happen. If you're referring to 125mgs per week than that's realistic.

If in fact it is @ 125 pw then I would not initiate an AI until you pull your first BW at 4-6 weeks, unless a side effect rears its head in the interim. If in fact an AI is needed then you always start at the lowest possible dose, example being .25 the day of each injection on a 2 x pw protocol. On a once per week protocol consider the day of injection and 2 or 3 days subsequent.