The Bible is a work of Fiction

[Tock]

1) Honestly I can only snort with discust as every textual critisism stated in this thread of the bible (the most published book in history with surviving texts testing to the 2nd century) - are completely without ANY scholarly reference

Who needs a scholarly reference when common sense will do?
Of course, if you really want me to provide references for what I said about Noah's Ark; it's size, number of mammals, reptiles, birds, insects, duration of the Ark's voyage, etc, I'll look 'em up. Some of it I got from the encyclopedia britannica, but I'm sure it's out there on the web, as well.
Any way you slice it, it's crazy.

--Tock

[Tock]

Well, to tell you the truth, I think our concous(spelling? tough word) is our soul. That is just what I believe. You can disect it all you want but that is me and a lot of others. You can't tell me what I believe is wrong because you have made it a point to tell others that being homosexual is not wrong.

Well, let me tell you what I think consciousness is . . .
It is nothing more than an effect of extremely complex bio-electrical reactions in the body's nervous system. It is a purely physical thing. To prove my point, you can take a hit of LSD, which is physical, and get a rather profound effect in the consciousness. You can get hit in the head with a two by four, injure the brain, which is a purely physical action, and get knocked out, which is the effect. After the body puts things back in order, you regain consciousness, and you're ready to go drinking . . . Again, alcohol, which is a physical substance, affects the consciousness, which is the effect of the nervous system's bio-electrical chemical activity.

My point is that if the soul is responsible for consciousness, and if the soul is not a physical thing that can be detected in some way, then physical substances would not affect it. Since it's easy to get looped on a good bottle of gin, it stands to reason that consciousness is subject to the rules of physics, and not to the "fictions of the Bible."

--Tock

[spywizard]

An agnostic can't answer this simple question..

Why are we here.......... is this all there is???

Science has already proven that the information in the Bible is accurate...
If you believe it or not is of no real consequence to the world... only to your own soul..

1) I don't know that it has. But even if the copyists were 100% accurate, there is still no way Noah could have fit over 40,000 animals on that itty bitty Ark with food and water for 14 months. There is no way that over half the population of Egypt could have left the country with the Army in ruins, and no one recorded the event, other than the Jews in the Old Testament. There is no way that anyone ever rose from the dead and floated up into the stratosphere, into outer space, past Saturn and Pluto, past all the other stars and galaxies out there without a space suit and plenty of air.

Ya, it may have been copied ok, but the original was full of fiction.

--Tock

[spywizard]

No your eyes are not open.... they are resentful to a society that rejects you, your way of life, and your ideals..

there for you hate it back..

and that is the real loss... because if someone didn't like you, you have to hate them right back..

My eyes are open, but I don't see Jesus around anywhere.


Another question . . . If Jesus was Jewish, how come he had a Mexican name?
--Tock

[spywizard]

All nonbelievers come to know the one true God of creation...

the difference is some get to spend time with him in thier lives... and others just get to know him for that short time of judgement..

Have you ever seen a atom split?? no?? but you believe in the theory...

You don't see the wind blow, but you feel it on your face........

again.......

just because you insist you are right.. doesn't mean it is true........... and the sad fact of the matter.. you get to choose to die the never ending death, even when you get so many chances to change............

By the way... i will keep posting... and know that you are prayed for everyday now... to God... For mercy, and forgivness....

Then you will understand how non-beleivers feel when a Christian whomps 'em over the head with a Bible. You see it every time a preacher or a layperson says, "Homosexuality is against the Bible, so gays can't do . . . . "

As far as I'm concerned, it's none of my business what other people beleive or don't beleive. It is, however, very much my business to strenuously object to Christians restricting my freedom and personal rights because my lifestyle offends their religious beleifs. And that's what I do . . . I've been doing it so much lately that it seems to have become a hobby . . . lol . . .

--Tock

[50%Natural]

Another question . . . If Jesus was Jewish, how come he had a Mexican name?
--Tock

wow, that statement was almost as idiotic as your "we should have a seperate gay forum" comment. You got to be kidding me. Jesus, since you are always so politically correct, would be spanish. Not Mexican. People of mexican decent can be linked as can most all latin americans except with indian back ground to people of spain. Also, that is an english interpretation of his name anyway. And, Jesus is not pronounced jesus in spanish. It is Hey-zues. But anyway, it was a spanish derived name in our culture, it is safe to say it came from western europe. I recall the crusades running around about the 12 century if my history is correct and it would have been easy to spread that name as they fought in the name of the lord for their lands. Anyway, that is neither here nor there. You kinda let me down with your statement.

[50%Natural]

Well, let me tell you what I think consciousness is . . .
It is nothing more than an effect of extremely complex bio-electrical reactions in the body's nervous system. It is a purely physical thing. To prove my point, you can take a hit of LSD, which is physical, and get a rather profound effect in the consciousness. You can get hit in the head with a two by four, injure the brain, which is a purely physical action, and get knocked out, which is the effect. After the body puts things back in order, you regain consciousness, and you're ready to go drinking . . . Again, alcohol, which is a physical substance, affects the consciousness, which is the effect of the nervous system's bio-electrical chemical activity.

My point is that if the soul is responsible for consciousness, and if the soul is not a physical thing that can be detected in some way, then physical substances would not affect it. Since it's easy to get looped on a good bottle of gin, it stands to reason that consciousness is subject to the rules of physics, and not to the "fictions of the Bible."

--Tock

Thanks for spelling that for me. I meant the little voice in your head. Not being awake or concious like you described. A con-shh-ince. I know that is not how the word is spelled, but that is what I was referring to as your soul or god telling you what you should or shouldn't be doing. Don't try to relate that to a complex biomechanical reaction because I don't think evolution could have put there, only an almighty creator.

[Cycleon]

Tock - sa to the ark - 3 things you may not have thought of:

a....Why is it that you are thinking that there were multiple forms of various species? we know that solar radiation has significant effect on mutations that may well have now become the wide varieties we see now - the bible makes reference to a water vapor canopy likely along the lines of a type of ozone layer that colapsed and probably previously protected inhabitants from radiation - that also may be why things and people are noted to have lived much longer before the flood. That would be a lot less animals to bring on. much that we see now could be due to evolutionary mutation subsequent to the flood. And since the ark was at least 450 feet long it could hold the animals if significant provisions were not required and especially if they slept (taking less space).

b.....they could have survived by going into a hibernative state such as bears do - granted this would have had to been caused by God but is not a great stretch of capability.

c....gopher wood, which is what is mentioned as the component of the ark - only recently has been understood - it is not from a "gopher tree" - rather it is a crude form of kevlar - basically wood that is treated with a type of tar that makes it honeycomb - strong as steel by weight but still floating - we have reproduced this now and it is very usefull even todays standards - we do not know if it was the same as we have reproduced but assume that it was something along similar lines - which is backed up when it says that noah covered the boat in pitch.

[50%Natural]

true. A dog can know if it did something bad. But there are limitations to what an animal knows or could do. I wouldn't ever compare that to an animal. Like i said, that is just what I feel. I know when something is right or wrong. Yeah, your parents can say don't do this or don't do that but what about things when you are young that happen and you feel bad? That is what i'm talking about. I have always had a deep and heavy concience. I feel that is something that is instilled in all of us to help us to have faith and stay strong. You can think all you want, but that is just me, lets get that straight alright?

[Tock]

1) An agnostic can't answer this simple question..

a) Why are we here..........
b) is this all there is???


2) Science has already proven that the information in the Bible is accurate...
If you believe it or not is of no real consequence to the world... only to your own soul..

1) I don't know what agnostic you're talking about, but I'm an unbeleiver, and I can answer it:
a) We are here because the pre-existing conditions before and time of our birth made our presence here inevitable.
b) Yep. You can make up any fiction to compensate for your disappointment that there isn't any more, but I'd recommend you find your harmonious place in the universe and enjoy the time you have, because that's all you're gonna get.

--Tock

[Tock]

No your eyes are not open....

..

I can wholehearted assure you that I have my eyes wide open. If I didn't, I would not be able to respond to these posts.

Perhaps you mean to say something else?

--Tock

[Tock]

1) just because you insist you are right.. doesn't mean it is true...........

2) and the sad fact of the matter.. you get to choose to die the never ending death, even when you get so many chances to change............

3) By the way... i will keep posting... and know that you are prayed for everyday now... to God... For mercy, and forgivness....

1) I suppose I should point out the same thing applies to you?

2) There you go again . . . the "Turn or Burn" approach to conversion . . . the equivalent of theological bullying.
Spy, maybe you can scare someone else into Christinsanity, but I'm familiar with the history of the book and religion, and it is nothing special. Other religious figures in history have (supposedly) died and risen, other religions have their versions of Hell, lots of religions have virgins and virgin births.
Yah, there's nothing special about the bible, it's only fiction misrepresented as fact, and causes millions of people to fritter away their lives on pointless stuff.
So, you don't need to try to use that approach on me any more.

3) If you're gonna keep praying until I convert, you better get yourself a good sturdy set of kneepads . . .

Take care,
--Tock

[Tock]

wow, that statement was almost as idiotic as your "we should have a seperate gay forum" comment. You got to be kidding me. Jesus, since you are always so politically correct, would be spanish. Not Mexican. People of mexican decent can be linked as can most all latin americans except with indian back ground to people of spain. Also, that is an english interpretation of his name anyway. And, Jesus is not pronounced jesus in spanish. It is Hey-zues. But anyway, it was a spanish derived name in our culture, it is safe to say it came from western europe. I recall the crusades running around about the 12 century if my history is correct and it would have been easy to spread that name as they fought in the name of the lord for their lands. Anyway, that is neither here nor there. You kinda let me down with your statement.

Looks like humor doesn't work too well in this medium, either . . .
--Tock . . .

[Tock]

[QUOTE=spywizard]
Have you ever seen a atom split?? no?? but you believe in the theory...


QUOTE]


How do you know I believe in the theory?
My understanding of nuclear fission is rather limited. I've heard that atoms can be split, that is all that I know. The source of this information comes from reliable sources -- scientists -- and since they've been correct when talking about scientific things more often than not, I'm inclined to think they know what they're talking about.

On the other hand, Church leaders have waddled in the mirey pits of ignorance and error when it comes to scientific and civil matters. Given the Church's resistance to notions like Galileo's concept that the Earth is not the center of the Universe, and the Bible's endorsement of slavery and women's second class citizen status, and its oppostition to equal treatment of gays and lesbians, and Christian's frequent attempts to bully heretics into intellectual subjection through the threat of eternal torment (yet another fiction), I don't trust the Christian Church's opinion on anything.

So, no, I dont' know much about splitting atoms. I do, however, know a thing or two about banana splits, splits as performed by dancers, and "splitting" as in "departures," which I intend to do right now . . .

--Tock

[Tock]

Thanks for spelling that for me. I meant the little voice in your head. Not being awake or concious like you described. A con-shh-ince. I know that is not how the word is spelled, but that is what I was referring to as your soul or god telling you what you should or shouldn't be doing. Don't try to relate that to a complex biomechanical reaction because I don't think evolution could have put there, only an almighty creator.

Oh, you mean that little voice that talks to you, eh?
Well, that's dependant on bio-electrical things going on in your nervous system, too. Since that voice works in the same language as you generally speak with, it shows that it is influenced by your environment.

As I mentioned, no one has seen, weighed, measured, photographed, touched, or otherwise examined a soul, and as there is no practical way to measure or examine something that is supposed to be immaterial, it is safe to assume that there is no such thing. If there is, someone would have figured out a way to do so by now.

--Tock

[bornbad71]

Then you will understand how non-beleivers feel when a Christian whomps 'em over the head with a Bible. You see it every time a preacher or a layperson says, "Homosexuality is against the Bible, so gays can't do . . . . "

As far as I'm concerned, it's none of my business what other people beleive or don't beleive. It is, however, very much my business to strenuously object to Christians restricting my freedom and personal rights because my lifestyle offends their religious beleifs. And that's what I do . . . I've been doing it so much lately that it seems to have become a hobby . . . lol . . .

--Tock

I don't recall homosexuality being against the bible, but I do believe that the bible says GOD is against homosexuality....u must understand one thing about the bible, since it is a form of law from GOD to his people, if someone quotes the bible, they are not judgeing anyone(or any group), that person or group has already been judged by GOD.
How do christians restrict your freedom and personal rights? Plus u may have holy rollers mixed up with the word christains......I must go to work, but will return to talk more on this.

[Tock]

Tock - sa to the ark - 3 things you may not have thought of:

a....Why is it that you are thinking that there were multiple forms of various species?

b) the bible makes reference to a water vapor canopy likely along the lines of a type of ozone layer that colapsed and probably previously protected inhabitants from radiation - that also may be why things and people are noted to have lived much longer before the flood. That would be a lot less animals to bring on. much that we see now could be due to evolutionary mutation subsequent to the flood. And since the ark was at least 450 feet long it could hold the animals if significant provisions were not required and especially if they slept (taking less space).

b.....they could have survived by going into a hibernative state such as bears do - granted this would have had to been caused by God but is not a great stretch of capability.

c....gopher wood, which is what is mentioned as the component of the ark - only recently has been understood - it is not from a "gopher tree" - rather it is a crude form of kevlar - basically wood that is treated with a type of tar that makes it honeycomb - strong as steel by weight but still floating - we have reproduced this now and it is very usefull even todays standards - we do not know if it was the same as we have reproduced but assume that it was something along similar lines - which is backed up when it says that noah covered the boat in pitch.

a) Did I mention anything about "multiple forms of various species?" I don't think so.

b) Isn't it odd how this "water canopy" escaped the notice of Bible Scholars for the past 1500 years? It seems to me this "canopy" is more likely the recent interpretation of fundamentalists in a desperate attempt to stand in the way of further scientific progress -- the progress of the science of evolution.

Yah, I've heard of this "water canopy" notion, and smarter eggheads than I seem to think the amount of heat necessary to vaporize the amount of water in this theory would more or less leave the surface of the earth in burnt cinders. Unfortunately, that's about the extent of my understanding. But I do know the "water canopy" notion is strongly supported by the Institute for Creation Research in California
http://www.icr.org/
which also supports the notion that two of every dinosaur (tryanosaurus rex, brontosaurus, stegasaurus, etc etc) were packed away on Noah's ark along with all the other animals.
So these nuts are saying that dinosaurs, along with Noah, existed about 6000 years ago. They used to have a picture book showing a brontosaurus sticking his head out the window of the Ark (a friend of mine has a copy of it), but
here's one of their books saying Adam and Eve lived with dinosaurs:
http://www.icr.org/page/001/PROD/15/BDIED1
Anyway, the folks who work according to the Scientific Method, the guys who brought us electric lights and automobiles and computers and AS and other wonder drugs and CD players and all sorts of technological wonders (with a pretty good reliability record) say that dinosaurs were pretty much extinct a few millions years before 4000 BC.
On the other hand, Christian theologians, the folks who brought us the medeival dark ages, and the Inquisition, and several Crusades, and the Salem Witch Trials, censored those who disagreed with the Church doctrine that the Earth is the Center of the Universe, Sunday Blue Laws, fought against democracy and supported slavery, and now oppose equal rights for gays and lesbians, Yah, these nuts with their long-established record for stupidity and opposition to intellectual freedom and individual rights, these people say dinosaurs existed 6000 years ago, and lots of these bloodthirsty monsters occupied space on Noah's ark along with mammals, birds, reptiles, and insects.
Yah, right . . .

b) "They could have" done this, "they could have done that." Well, maybe they were all shrunk down to 6 inches tall, or maybe Noah was turned into a giant so he could handle the big dinosaurs, or maybe all the animals were given the ability to hover above the rainclouds, or maybe all the animals were temporarily turned into newts, or maybe this or maybe that . . .
That is nothing but speculation. It is NOT what the Bible says actually happened. And this is nothing but a typical tactic fundamentalists use to wriggle around the issues they can't find more reasonable rationailizations to explain.
Maybe Jesus didn't really rise from the dead, but it was just a hallucination?
Maybe Jesus and Mary Magdalene had a Krispy Kreme donut shop in Palestine betwen age 15 and 29. Hey, if God willed it, then God could have made it happen! This would expain a lot of things . . . Or, this would be just a lame piece of BS, like any other "God Could Have" or "It Could Have Happened This Way."
Please . . . don't insult my intelligence . . .
Stick to the text, don't be adding to it or taking anything away from it, because as you know,
" . . . if any man shall take away from the words of this book God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." Rev. 22:19.

c) gopher wood has "only recently been understood?" And it's like Kevlar?
Nuts!!!
Look, according to what the Bible said, the Ark had about 2.5 acres of total available floor space.. There is no way you can fit food and water to feed all those animals AND dinosaurs (as some fundamentalist leaders say) on the Ark for 14 long months.
It is absurd to think it could be done. The story is ONLY a story; a work of fiction; a folk tale of the ancient Hebrews.

And that's that.

--Tock

[Tock]

1) I don't recall homosexuality being against the bible, but I do believe that the bible says GOD is against homosexuality....

2) u must understand one thing about the bible, since it is a form of law from GOD to his people,

3) if someone quotes the bible, they are not judgeing anyone(or any group), that person or group has already been judged by GOD.

4) How do christians restrict your freedom and personal rights? Plus u may have holy rollers mixed up with the word christains......I must go to work, but will return to talk more on this.

1) Not much of a practical difference, there . . . but, ok . . .

2) I would have no problem with that if this "law" was confined to those people who volunteered to be subject to it. As things are now, Christians like to make the Bible's Laws and rules and restrictions into civil law so that those of us who are not Christian are obligated to abide by them.

3) Would that include these charming folks: http://www.godhatesfags.com/main/index.html

4) Laws and public policies based on the Bible's aversion to gays, such as:
http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/statu...ml#pe002.21.06
§ 21.06. Homosexual Conduct
(a) A person commits an offense if he engages in deviate sexual intercourse with another individual of the same sex.
(b) An offense under this section is a Class C misdemeanor.
Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, § 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974. Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, § 1.01, eff. Sept. 1, 1994.

and Bible-inspired laws that keep gays out of the military, that prevent gays from getting married, sermons that inspire bigots to shoot or beat up gays or deny them jobs or refuse to sell them real estate (yah, that last one happened to me once).
The Bible is the #1 source of anti-gay bigotry in America today. You see Leviticus 18:22 quoted all the time denouncing gay people . . . it's pretty da mn sick. And stupid.

50 years from now, when the Christian Right has found someone else to focus its vindictive venom upon, critics will point to its stupid objection to gay marriage the same way it used to oppose interracial marriage.

Bah . . .

--Tock

[Tock]

Just a question, but what creatures did God give a "soul" to? Dogs, horses, and cats (to name a few) have a "conscience". They know when they're being bad, and they know what it means to be "good". Their brains aren't as complex as ours, so they can't comprehend certain things that we do, but tell me why these animals don't feel it to be "wrong" to steal, or to commit adultery, or to kill? If God has given them a soul, shouldn't He be influencing them in the same manner? Shouldn't he be telling them what they're doing is "wrong"? If a dog craps in your house, but you don't scold him for it, he'll continue to do so without remorse, until you scold him. Once the dog is house-trained, he will do is best to wait for you to let them out to use the bathroom, because you've taught them that this is "right". If they can't hold it, they'll go in the house, and if you show it to them, they'll act remorseful. My point is, the ideals of "right" & "wrong" are taught & learned, not inborn. If a child has a toy that another child wants, they fight over it. If this isn't successful, one or both children resort to violence. THIS is inborn behavior. Most parents scold their children for such behavior and those children learn that it's "wrong to hit or hurt other people", and therefore if he/she does this in the future, he/she will feel guilty about it. It has nothing to do with "the Lord's guidance"...

Yah, what SGFury said . . .

--Tock

[Tock]

Tock...you are a sorry SOB because you don't agree with everything I say...

It's gonna happen sooner or later...get it over with for "God's" sake. Notice the "god" reference...kind of appropriate don't you think!!

Oh yah . . .
Well, I guess you're just gonna have to spank me, eh?
You know, I have the *perfect* outfit for the occasion . . . black rubber! PM me . . . no need to embarrass ya by giving details on the board for everyone to see . . .

--Tock

[tryingtogetbig]

Oh yah . . .
Well, I guess you're just gonna have to spank me, eh?
You know, I have the *perfect* outfit for the occasion . . . black rubber! PM me . . . no need to embarrass ya by giving details on the board for everyone to see . . .

--Tock

that will be enough of that...

[spywizard]

I have never scared anyone into heaven... nor am i a bible thumper...

I know you understand the meaning of these two sayings... i am taking this approach with you because of your insistance on your position...

as for praying for conversion... I don't do that.. I feel that you are in a place in your life where that is not possible for me or anyone else to assist you with.. you are so far down a dark path that you can not see a path out..

so my prayer for you is not for conversion, but rather for mercy, and forgivness... Remember the 2 men that were crucified with Jesus?? (i'm sure you do)... One challenged him saying "if you are the Son of God, come down off the cross" while the other man said to the first, "we have recieved that which is just, we deserve the punishment that we have recieved, this man has done nothing" to which Jesus stated to him "surely you will be with me in my Fathers kingdom".....

I pray for the first man, for he needs mercy and forgivness.. much as you.. I try very hard not to judge... for i cannot know the mercy and forgivness of Jesus... I refuse to judge a man on my standards, so i pray for understanding, and mercy for those that refuse God, and Jesus...

For how much mercy and forgivness does a man need who lives a life filled with love and the fellowship of God?? Compared to a man who lives a life of desperation, and seperation of God... ............

So when a man stands forth and says.............. God is not real... the bible is not true........... the only thing i can do is pray for mercy and forgivness ......

and i don't need kneepads for that......

And thus as a agnostic......you still have not answered the question... why are you here.... and is this life experience all that there is???

1) I suppose I should point out the same thing applies to you?

2) There you go again . . . the "Turn or Burn" approach to conversion . . . the equivalent of theological bullying.
Spy, maybe you can scare someone else into Christinsanity, but I'm familiar with the history of the book and religion, and it is nothing special. Other religious figures in history have (supposedly) died and risen, other religions have their versions of Hell, lots of religions have virgins and virgin births.
Yah, there's nothing special about the bible, it's only fiction misrepresented as fact, and causes millions of people to fritter away their lives on pointless stuff.
So, you don't need to try to use that approach on me any more.

3) If you're gonna keep praying until I convert, you better get yourself a good sturdy set of kneepads . . .

Take care,
--Tock

[mass junkie]

Anyone notice that Tock has become quite the little post whore?

[tryingtogetbig]

Anyone notice that Tock has become quite the little post whore?

hhhmmmmm.....what will his custom title be?

...And he better quit using the word "outfit" when describing clothes he wears...men don't wear "outfits" dangit!

Oh yeah...especially black rubber "outfits"...If I get a mental image over that statement I'm going to hunt you down Tock....

[spywizard]

yea.. he is whoring it up................

don't see too many post in the steroid section, or training, or /?????

just the "I hate God" and the "I'm different" threads.......

Anyone notice that Tock has become quite the little post whore?

[bermich]

Im still laughing at the Arch story and hybronation and maybe this and maybe that. I think Tock tore apart the arch theory.

To answer "Why are we here?" Why does there have to be a reason. Its just evolution. Its also PURE LUCK that we are still here. 93 percent of Earth's species are extinct. That means Earth has a 7 percent success rate in evolution. Not very good statistics.

[50%Natural]

Looks like humor doesn't work too well in this medium, either . . .
--Tock . . .

well, i'm laughing now if you meant it as a joke

[Tock]

yea.. he is whoring it up................

don't see too many post in the steroid section, or training, or /?????

just the "I hate God" and the "I'm different" threads.......

Been short of time, really, between cooking and this thread and some other stuff I've got going on. Lots of other experienced folks are around to answer newbie's winnie questions, so . . .
But I'll be back . . .

And by the way, this ain't a "I hate God" thread. It's a thread about the Bible being fiction. There's a big difference.
I wonder if you're saying that I hate God because you've not been able to post a rebuttal to my assertion . . . Yah, it's a common tactic in debates to change the focus from the topic at hand to the person making the arguments. Not a winning topic, I might add . . .

--Tock

[Tock]

1) I have never scared anyone into heaven

2) And thus as a agnostic......you still have not answered the question... why are you here.... and is this life experience all that there is???

1) Every time you use the "Turn or Burn" argument or "Pascal's Wager" you're using fear to motiviate someone into making a decision.

2) Yes, I already answered that question elsewhere. It's tough to find anything in this thread, but "seek and ye shall find. Knock her up and she shall be opened unto you." Or something like that . . .

--Tock

[Tock]

Anyone notice that Tock has become quite the little post whore?

Post whore? In this one little thread?
If you say so . . .
--Tock

[tryingtogetbig]

Tock...isn't everything in life done out of fear in some form or fashion. If I don't work out hard enough, then I fear I won't get very big. If I speed, then I fear I will get a ticket. If I don't cook, then I fear that I will starve to death. I could go on and on....doesn't that make your arguement regarding fear as a motivator obsolete? Prove me wrong....

[Tock]

well, i'm laughing now if you meant it as a joke

Of course I did . . .
Yah, this medium limits a lot of the communication you can generate with facial expressions and vocal inflections. I'll have to make my humor more obvious in the future . . .
--Tock

[spywizard]

yes........... and it is a typical tactic to refuse to answer a question directly..

so............... again........... the agnostics response to the question...???


Why are we here..................

and that was funny........................ knock her up and she shall be open unto you...........


Here is one for you............. Deny me before man.... and i will deny you before the father........

Now... if that scares you... that's not my intent.... just a quote,,,

1) Every time you use the "Turn or Burn" argument or "Pascal's Wager" you're using fear to motiviate someone into making a decision.

2) Yes, I already answered that question elsewhere. It's tough to find anything in this thread, but "seek and ye shall find. Knock her up and she shall be opened unto you." Or something like that . . .

--Tock

[bermich]

Not everythign in life is done out of fear. That would mean you are fearful your entire life and all your goals are based from fear. Love is not based on fear. I can see where the argument would go and you could use "out of fear" for anything so the argument is pointless
For instance: You love out of the fear of being alone. You have children out of the fear of, I dont know. But you see the point. Life is not based on fear.

[Tock]

Tock...isn't everything in life done out of fear in some form or fashion. If I don't work out hard enough, then I fear I won't get very big. If I speed, then I fear I will get a ticket. If I don't cook, then I fear that I will starve to death. I could go on and on....doesn't that make your arguement regarding fear as a motivator obsolete? Prove me wrong....

There is motivation by fear, and motivation by pleasure. That's pretty much what all motivation boils down to.
You anticipate the happy results that come from wise application of proper workouts, nutrition, and rest, so you are motivated by the pleasure associated with the fruits of your labor.
Or . . . if you are the property of some ancient wench with droopy tits and wrinkles deep as the Grand Canyon, and she pokes you with a cattle prod if she thinks you are not working out hard enough, the anticipation of further pain could motivate you to greater efforts in the gym in order to avoid the pain.

There . . . I suppose you've been proved wrong. Fear is not the only motivator. It's commonly used by people who don't know any better, who don't realize they can get better results with pleasure.

Almost all dog training done by people who know about such things is done with "positive reinforcement" only. Bosses who motivate their employees with fear won't get out of them what they could if they used a system of rewards. Parents who bully their children into submission will create kids full of resentment, not kids who are prepared to deal with the real world as adults.

Yah, there's much more to motivation than just Fear. Old-Time bible Thumpers use it a lot because they don't know any better, and don't have any better arguments. It's a seriously flawed book, unworthy of reverence and worship.

--Tock

[Tock]

yes........... and it is a typical tactic to refuse to answer a question directly..

so............... again........... the agnostics response to the question...???


Why are we here..................
,,,

Check out my response on post # 139.
--Tock

[tryingtogetbig]

There is motivation by fear, and motivation by pleasure. That's pretty much what all motivation boils down to.
You anticipate the happy results that come from wise application of proper workouts, nutrition, and rest, so you are motivated by the pleasure associated with the fruits of your labor.
Or . . . if you are the property of some ancient wench with droopy tits and wrinkles deep as the Grand Canyon, and she pokes you with a cattle prod if she thinks you are not working out hard enough, the anticipation of further pain could motivate you to greater efforts in the gym in order to avoid the pain.

There . . . I suppose you've been proved wrong. Fear is not the only motivator. It's commonly used by people who don't know any better, who don't realize they can get better results with pleasure.

Almost all dog training done by people who know about such things is done with "positive reinforcement" only. Bosses who motivate their employees with fear won't get out of them what they could if they used a system of rewards. Parents who bully their children into submission will create kids full of resentment, not kids who are prepared to deal with the real world as adults.

Yah, there's much more to motivation than just Fear. Old-Time bible Thumpers use it a lot because they don't know any better, and don't have any better arguments. It's a seriously flawed book, unworthy of reverence and worship.

--Tock

Nope....there can still be holes punched in that theory....

Maybe you do something for "fear" of not having pleasure....everything we do in life is out of fear in some form or fashion....to say that we are constantly trying to learn how to minimize our fears is acceptable....some of our fears are greater than others....I fear that by not pushing myself in the gym I will not be able to enjoy the fruits of my labor as much as if I had worked harder.

So, to throw around that religion is based on "fear" is a true statement. Facing our fears in life is what makes us all better intellects. But to say that "fear" of god is crazy and misguided...well, every person will believe what they want....to each their own.

ttgb

[Tock]

Another piece of fiction from the Bible . . . the Story of the Talking Serpent

Genesis, Chapter 2, verses 1-5:

1 Now the serpent Rev. 12.9 ; 20.2 was more subtile than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5 for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

-------------------------

Of course, Serpents can't talk. Hiss, maybe, but talk? Nope.
They can no more talk than they can ride bicycles.
Lots of folk tales and other fiction include talking animals; like the "Story of the Hare and the Tortise," "Goldilocks and the Three Bears," and "The Three Billy Goats Gruff." And of course you'll all remember Mr Ed, TV's talking horse?

Well anyway, if people are supposed to beleive every word of the Bible is true, someone better be prepared to satisfactorily 'splain to all of us just how a serpent, lacking vocal cords and the other associated physiology to support speech could have said all that to Eve.
Elsewise, we can mark that up as "just more fiction."

--Tock

[PTbyJason]

Tock there are a lot of things in life that God does, that cannot be explained. There are healings, there are people who prophesize, there are people who speak in tounges, and someone across the room who has never met this person can interpret it. With God all things are possible. In relation to that particular story, I would have to do more research on it to see if it was literal or figurative. But God has done things that man will never be able to explain, so it is possible that the serpent spoke. You don't have to believe it, and I don't think you will because you didn't see it with your own eyes. I, myself, tried to explain away everything that God was doing at one time. I came up with excuse after excuse and finally realized that I was running out of excuses for things. God does things that cannot be explained sometimes, and you can pick it apart and call it nonsense if you want, or you can believe. But eventually, just as I did, you will run out of excuses.

[spywizard]

Wow......... you are an agnostic....and
this is just babbling............ Pre existing conditions?? please... from caos comes order??? is that what you believe...

In science... order is first... and from order comes caos.... without input nothing gets better with time... ....

You can't possible believe that we come from slime???? Now who is living in a dream world...

Sorry if you are unable to support your non belief, and justify nothingness..

but I still prayed for you last night...... and shared your views with other believers... so now you have more than just me praying for you, for mercy, and forgivness..

1) I don't know what agnostic you're talking about, but I'm an unbeleiver, and I can answer it:
a) We are here because the pre-existing conditions before and time of our birth made our presence here inevitable.
b) Yep. You can make up any fiction to compensate for your disappointment that there isn't any more, but I'd recommend you find your harmonious place in the universe and enjoy the time you have, because that's all you're gonna get.

--Tock