"Same sex marriage" What is your opinion?

[Tock]

So......... the Gay population in the USA is what????? 3%???

I don't really know. I've heard 1% (from Jerry Falwell) and 10%. There's not really been many studies done on this since Alfred Kinsey's work in the 1940's. He came up with a scale from 1 to 7 that everyone fit on.
If you were 100% exclusively straight, you were a 1. If you were 100% exclusively gay, you were a 7. The rest of the US population could be divided up equally between mostly straight, bisexual, and mostly gay.
So, only 2/7ths of the population is one or the other, everyone else is bisexual, favoring one or the other in varying degrees.

He found that 34% of all men had had homosexual experiences to orgasm of one type or another (excluding rape and that sort of thing). Sex being what it is, I'm sure it was not unenjoyable. Others had fantasies about it.

So . . . if you want a definitive answer, I don't really know. The usual figure bantied about nowadays is 3 or 4%. It's probably higher.

Why do you ask?

--Tock

[alevok]

same sex marriage is the sickest thing on earth. Whats next? sibling marriage?
The more we tolerate them the more they ask for more. sick sick sick

[Tock]

same sex marriage is the sickest thing on earth. Whats next? sibling marriage?
The more we tolerate them the more they ask for more. sick sick sick

Sibling marriage, eh?
Somehow, I don't think so . . .
Most family members have been around each other long enough to know how messy they are, how they like to fart in the middle of movies, how they pick their noses, grunt while slurping their soup, mouth off with stupid comments, etc. so any romantic notions are pretty much dead from the get-go.
My guess is that if prospective marriage partners had the same insights as their family members did of their siblings, there would be a lot fewer marriages going on . . .
JMHO . . .
--Tock

[Mart651]

Ok you guys say it is natural.
I was reading a site yesterday about homosexuality in the wild. It was stating that it was common and appeared to be natural. It also went on to say that in nature the gay animal was usually killed. They were talking about lions. So I would assume that it is natural for the animals to kill the gay in their pride.

I am not saying that we should kill anyone and I know that is where a couple of you will try to take this. I am only stating the fact that it is not as natural as we are lead to believe. If it was then it would not be delt with like this in the wild. It is a flaw and should not be excepted as a life style.

You can be gay all you want and thats just fine with me. As for gay marraige, I think it should be delt with democraticly and let us vote.
That is the only fair way.

[Harvey Balboner]

this was mentioned a couple of times. i just want to point out that their doesn't need to be any type of civil union/marriage for a gay to leave assets/property to their partner, all they have to do is write a will, and leave everything to their partner with just a token amount $1 to their family who has "disowned" them so they will not have real grounds to contest the will.

[Carlos_E]

this was mentioned a couple of times. i just want to point out that their doesn't need to be any type of civil union/marriage for a gay to leave assets/property to their partner, all they have to do is write a will, and leave everything to their partner with just a token amount $1 to their family who has "disowned" them so they will not have real grounds to contest the will.

A will only takes effect if they die. What happens if they're hospitalized? Their partner can't even visit them in the hospital because only family is allowed to visit. What about health insurance, taxes and other benefits?

[alevok]

I'm sure before slavery was abolished, the Confederates were saying, "What? Give niggers the same rights as us? What's next? Equal rights for women? Hahaha!" Times change my friend. Gays have been around for as long as history has been documented. Now, living in a country that stands for equality for all, you need to learn to accept that homosexuals are just as deserving of this privilege as you are. Now why is it fair that heterosexual child-molestors, zoophiles, and other straight people who engage in bizarre and ILLEGAL sexual behavior, have the right to get married, but not gays? Now you might say, "Well, they're not marrying children, animals, and such." So does that mean if two gay men were to marry two gay women, and they all lived in the same house, but slept with each other's partner (man-man, woman-woman), would that be okay? You can't restrict a HUMAN BEING'S freedoms if they have different sexual practices than you. Are you saying that's what gives a man/woman their rights is depending on what they do in the bedroom? How far are we gonna take this? Are straight people who like anal sex or doggystyle gonna have their freedoms restricted next? Will I have to worry if someone finds out that my girlfriend and I have 69'ed, that I will lose freedoms? If this seems absurd, then why does it seem okay to deny freedoms to a man/woman because they choose to sleep with the same sex? Welcome to the 21st Century, get used to it...

First thing first, given rights to Black people(or equal rights for women) is not the same thing as given right to gay people to marry, you are confusing two very different things.
You said "Now why is it fair that heterosexual child-molestors, zoophiles, and other straight people who engage in bizarre and ILLEGAL sexual behavior, have the right to get married, but not gays? "See now you are puting gays in the same scale with other sick typos, so you are accepting the fact that gays are engaging bizarre sexual behavior.
If you look at the history you will find how gay people died in Pompei/Italy. Please do a research you will be amazed
Ok tell me this, (no offense) assume that your father is gay and married to a man, how do you explain this to your child? Dont you think your boy would think that man doing man is ok? Are you ok with this? I am not!
Whether it is 21st Century or 29th century, wrong will stay wrong no matter how much time pass by.

[Mart651]

I know this was pointed at me but what in the hell are you talking about.

So is it natural to be born with Downs-syndrome? How about siamese twins? Spina bifida? Albinism? Club foot? Thrombocytopenia Absent Radius (TAR) Syndrome? Dwarfism? Aicardi Syndrome? Anencephaly? All these are not natural. If any of these were to somehow occur in the animal kingdom, the other family members would kill it, or it would end up prey to another creature, yet we give these people equal rights for marriage, among other things. My girlfriend's nephew was born with a club foot. It was corrected, but the point was, it wasn't natural. These defects are considered to be "flaws". Tell me why these "unnatural" people get more freedoms than someone who is gay?

[Carlos_E]

How about those people who are born hermaphrodites? Are they to be punished too for their "abnormalities"??

SGFuryZ likes trannies.

[spywizard]

Unfortunetly.... In a civilized society... the weak, and abnormal can survive... in nature they don't..............

so the short answer is Yes......

By allowing weakness..... we as a society become weaker... but we feel good about it......

You were talking about homosexuality as being "abnormal", and how in the animal kingdom, other creatures of the same species will often kill these "abnormalities" off, yet we give these other abnormalities the right to marry, and even reproduce & raise families! So what makes gays any different? You're right. Being gay isn't normal. But neither is having heart disease or Parkinson's disease. You gonna start punishing these people for their "abnormalities" now?? How about those people who are born hermaphrodites? Are they to be punished too for their "abnormalities"??

[alevok]

SGfuryz,
You are just talking about rights, of course people must have rights but not all of them, there must be boundaries. We can not do whatever we want thats not the freedom. What makes human different than animals is those limitations.
What about morals, a society can not function without morals.
Once before people lived for honor and dignity, where is the honor in gay marriage? Do you think future generations will appreciate this kind of heritage you are preparing for them? Do you think thats God's will? What you are doing is legalizing two men f.....g each other thats all. And by days we are gonna get used to it, and one day being gay will look so normal so being straight will look stupid, that would be the end of the world.
What ever you say is not going to change my mind, I am against it and so is the majority.

[alevok]

SGfuryZ;
this should give you an idea:
"Let us look for a moment at the pornography of another culture, one that preceded ours by nearly 2000 years. In the year 79 AD, Vesuvius erupted, and the Roman cities of Pompeii and Herculaneum were covered in a thick layer of ashes and lava. Ancient archaeologists tried to dig them up, but to no avail -- only some valuables could be rescued. It was not until the 18th century that Pompeii was rediscovered -- a discovery that shocked a European society in love with antiquity. It was the discovery of a civilization that was, in many respects (including some technology), superior to the one that discovered it.

Fortunately for us, the ancient Romans loved art. Frescoes of immense beauty survived, and many of them were pornographic (selection). Too pornographic for the times. In 1819, when king Francis I of Naples visited the exhibition at the National Museum with his wife and daughter, he was so embarrassed by the erotic artwork that he decided to have it locked away in a secret cabinet, accessible only to "people of mature age and respected morals." Re-opened, closed, re-opened again and then closed again for nearly 100 years, it was made briefly accessible again at the end of the 1960s (the time of the sexual revolution) and has finally been re-opened in the year 2000. Minors are not allowed entry to the once secret cabinet without a guardian or a written permission. Even in the 1960s, selected frescoes were covered with a lockable door, which was only opened to visitors who asked at the entrance.

The frescoes, statues and figurines show sexual acts, or men with extremely enlarged penises. It was not uncommon for a kitchen or living room wall to be decorated with a fresco of the naked god Priapus, a man with a donkey-size penis. And then there is Pan, perhaps an early furry, a goat-man/god who is in one astonishingly detailed sculpture depicted as having sex with a real goat. There are the penis windchimes and the brothel paintings. Homosexuality, zoophilia, pederasty (sexual relationships between men and young boys) are known to have been widely practiced"

Do you see what happens to the societies with sick practices? If we are not gonna stop them then God will, trust me.

[Mart651]

All men are created equal but all men are not equal. I myself am better than many people I know.Such as Dommer and others like him. We may have been born the same and crated the same but we are far from equal.

[Mart651]

Yeah, my mom never let me get around fags. I guess thats why I want to screw a man. Thats so stupid.

Dude you are not taking up for the gay marriage stance, you are only confusing it. If I was gay I would ask you to please stay out of it.

If you shield your children from the harsh realities of the world, their curiousity upon discovering about it themselves will only fuel their desire to "experiment"...

[Mart651]

The day when they got their rights was when the majority agreed they deserved their rights.

If the truth be told about %90 of America thinks same sex marriage is wrong.

"All men are created equal" is a figure of speech, not to be taken literally word-for-word. They're saying all men are created with equal rights. Now you may say, well Blacks were men. Not back then they weren't. For a period of time, a Black was considered 3/5's a person. Back then also, when the Declaration was written, women didn't have equal rights, hence why they wrote "All MEN...". Times change, and so does society. Adapt or spend the rest of your life resisting the inevitable...

[Mart651]

Hey you stupid f u ck. You keep getting upset and getting personal this conversation will come to an end.

I have answered you about my child on three different occasions. You obviously have no clue on what the **** you are talking about , you only like to argue.

For someone that has no children and is not gay, you have a lot of oppinions on subjects that you can only read about.

I will give you this. You may not be very smart but you are persistant.

You don't even understand what it means to be gay, you ignorant fool! I don't either, but having gay friends, it allows me to grasp the concept better than you obviously have. Alevok made a point about keeping children away from "adult art", and if the times changed, there might be more "gay" art that a child could be exposed to. (although I don't understand the relationship between gay marriages and gay art... )

My point was that keeping your child from learning/understanding something, will only fuel their curiousity as to why it was kept from him/her. This is why schools now have sex education classes in 4th grade. This is why they tell you to explain to your children the dangers/negative effects of drug/alcohol abuse. People wonder why kids accidentally shoot themselves with Daddy's gun. Well, if all you do is keep it hidden away, don't let them explore and understand it (empty of course), and don't explain the dangers and risks of playing with a gun, he/she will be more curious to explore it on their own, which could lead to dire consequences. If you shield your child from homosexuality and don't explain to him/her what it is or how it happens, then your child will only be more curious about it, and depending on their personality-type, they may be compelled to explore it, especially during that confusing period of life called "puberty". Puberty already jacks up your hormones, and hormones can impair judgment. I assume you can put 2 & 2 together...

BTW, what would you do if your child was born gay? You saying you'd repress those emotions and confusion for him/her, so that when they do discover what they are on their own, to have them disassociate themselves with you for making them feel bad about being gay? Not to mention the fact that if your child feels uncomfortable about their sexuality around you, that you can never be truly close to your child, and that, my friend, would be a **** shame...

[Tock]

1) What about morals, a society can not function without morals.
Once before people lived for honor and dignity, where is the honor in gay marriage? Do you think future generations will appreciate this kind of heritage you are preparing for them?

2) What ever you say is not going to change my mind, I am against it and so is the majority.

1) Alevok, bud, you're another fellow who could benefit from spending an afternoon with me; letting me show you what gay people (me and my friends) are like; contrast that with what you've heard about gays.

2) Everyone has the right to their own opinion. The majority of people might very well indeed be against gay marriage. The majority of people might be against inter-racial marriage, too, and be in favor of slavery (heck, the Bible says slavery is ok).
The deal really comes down to individual rights. Do you value them, or not? Do you have the right to live the way you want, so long as you don't interfere with your neighbor? Gays and lesbians are asking for the same rights that you have. Nothing more, nothing less.
If you think fairness and equality is too much to ask for, then it's too much to ask for. Lots of folks agree, lots of folks disagree. Time will tell how it all gets worked out . . .
--Tock
My gosh, there's tornados in the neighborhood . . . gotta make like a nose in winter and run . . .

[Tock]

Ok you guys say it is natural.
I was reading a site yesterday about homosexuality in the wild. It was stating that it was common and appeared to be natural. It also went on to say that in nature the gay animal was usually killed. They were talking about lions. So I would assume that it is natural for the animals to kill the gay in their pride.

Where did you see this? The 700 Club?
It's news to me . . .
--Tock

[Mart651]

Are you kidding?
I will try ton find the site where I found it.
It was not meant to go against gays but of course thats what I got out of it.

Where did you see this? The 700 Club?
It's news to me . . .
--Tock

[Carlos_E]

Are you kidding?
I will try ton find the site where I found it.
It was not meant to go against gays but of course thats what I got out of it.

I've read articles about homosexuality in animals and no where did I see they kill the gay animal.

Here I found the post.

http://www.anabolicreview.com/vbulle...&postcount=221

[tuna]

Gay couples can have kids. Adoption, surrogate mothers, family donating an egg or sperm. Since that is the case, do you suggest that only gay couples that marry and have children receive tax breaks?

Yes if the state, council , Local government whatever belives that two to
people are fit to be parents and meet the correct laws regarding adoption surregacy etc. Then if they are married obviously they have met the critera that would qualify them for the tax emptions.

Personaly I do not think that people of the same gender should be allowed to raise children. wether they be gay or lesbian.

I know many gay people who are good people and good with children. Who are kind considerate patient and caring but the fact is that for same sex couples to raise a family is not acceptable. Not because im homophobic or that I think the beforementioned would harm there children in anyway but because it would be impossible for gay couples not to confuse and influence there childrens sexuality toward the path that a normal family would not.

the biggest role models children have is there parents; And if you are raised the normal way and you become inclined to the gay way of life then ok thats nature, Thats the way you turned out, But it should not be the norm for people to be taught to live that way from birth. And if your parents are gay then that is exactly what you would be taught from birth.

For all the fools flaming up this thread with die gays die. god says die; who the **** are you to speak for the lord. I love god and if I ever hear you speak on his behalf again Ill kick your biggot arses so hard you be able to read the nikey sign on my trainer tounge. The almighty does not need you to speak for him. Why would you think that you are worhty fo that granduer.

I cannot see why god would want gay people to die they were made with free will and god gave us all free will to live happy and forfilling live with our fellow man. god made gay people you dumb fu cks and you think youre gonna tell them he thinks they should die man im angry. fu ck ing moreons your entiltilled to your opinions but do not ever speak for god again

[spywizard]

True no one can speak for God...

Actually.. God didn't give us free will, we took it, and are still paying that price...

People are free to pick the dark or the light...

with that said.... we all sin..... in the sight of God... so the person that is gay, and God judges that as sinful.. he also judges pride as sin...

So if God can forgive me... he can and will forgive anyone who asks.....

with that said.....No one will come to God except through Christ...


sorry for the preaching.. i am feeling very pressed right now... to do more....

Peace

Yes if the state, council , Local government whatever belives that two to
people are fit to be parents and meet the correct laws regarding adoption surregacy etc. Then if they are married obviously they have met the critera that would qualify them for the tax emptions.

Personaly I do not think that people of the same gender should be allowed to raise children. wether they be gay or lesbian.

I know many gay people who are good people and good with children. Who are kind considerate patient and caring but the fact is that for same sex couples to raise a family is not acceptable. Not because im homophobic or that I think the beforementioned would harm there children in anyway but because it would be impossible for gay couples not to confuse and influence there childrens sexuality toward the path that a normal family would not.

the biggest role models children have is there parents; And if you are raised the normal way and you become inclined to the gay way of life then ok thats nature, Thats the way you turned out, But it should not be the norm for people to be taught to live that way from birth. And if your parents are gay then that is exactly what you would be taught from birth.

For all the fools flaming up this thread with die gays die. god says die; who the **** are you to speak for the lord. I love god and if I ever hear you speak on his behalf again Ill kick your biggot arses so hard you be able to read the nikey sign on my trainer tounge. The almighty does not need you to speak for him. Why would you think that you are worhty fo that granduer.

I cannot see why god would want gay people to die they were made with free will and god gave us all free will to live happy and forfilling live with our fellow man. god made gay people you dumb fu cks and you think youre gonna tell them he thinks they should die man im angry. fu ck ing moreons your entiltilled to your opinions but do not ever speak for god again

[Carlos_E]

I know many gay people who are good people and good with children. Who are kind considerate patient and caring but the fact is that for same sex couples to raise a family is not acceptable. Not because im homophobic or that I think the beforementioned would harm there children in anyway but because it would be impossible for gay couples not to confuse and influence there childrens sexuality toward the path that a normal family would not.

the biggest role models children have is there parents; And if you are raised the normal way and you become inclined to the gay way of life then ok thats nature, Thats the way you turned out, But it should not be the norm for people to be taught to live that way from birth. And if your parents are gay then that is exactly what you would be taught from birth.

That's not true. You forget gays come from "normal" families who raise their children to be straight. I guess you don't support the theory that people are born either gay, straight or bisexual. No matter what environment you're raised in, you'll be one or the other.

I have a friend who has lesbian parents. (two Moms) And guess what, he's not gay, not bisexual, not confused. He's straight as an arrow. He says he's always knew he was straight, there was never confusion. I doubt a gay parent would try and force their child to be gay. Unlike straight parents who try and force their children to be straight and disown them if they're not what they want them to be.

Which do you feel is a better environment for a child? Being in a home with 2 loving same sex parents who'll provide a good home, care and protect their child? Or straight parents on the verge of divorce who fight and neglect their child? Which child do you think will grow up to be a problem for society?

[tuna]

[

Which do you feel is a better environment for a child? Being in a home with 2 loving same sex parents who'll provide a good home, care and protect their child? Or straight parents on the verge of divorce who fight and neglect their child? Which child do you think will grow up to be a problem for society?[/QUOTE]

wow bro chill out

I dont forget nothing.. I know gays had straight familys and I know that not all off spring of gays would turn out gay...

And no man I think the suggestion that your life is predetermined is bull****
I think that we are bourne with a certain amount of paint and that evrything that we come into contact with before we die acts as some kind of brush with wich to paint...and that we are at our most immpressionable when we are there young.. Do you belive that it is correct for two people of the same sex to start familys.

When you ask which I belive is better for two bad parents or two good gay parents..of course the good parents would be better at raising children.. But you wouldnt allow to bad parents two adopt or want them to abtain surregate children etc so the question is un fair. I hear your point about gay paternts but Im sorry it should be actively disencouraged. I realise this will be unpopular but somtimes the thing that is right is unpopular and harsh would you not agree my freind

[Carlos_E]

wow bro chill out

I dont forget nothing.. I know gays had straight familys and I know that not all off spring of gays would turn out gay...

And no man I think the suggestion that your life is predetermined is bull****
I think that we are bourne with a certain amount of paint and that evrything that we come into contact with before we die acts as some kind of brush with wich to paint...and that we are at our most immpressionable when we are there young.. Do you belive that it is correct for two people of the same sex to start familys.

When you ask which I belive is better for two bad parents or two good gay parents..of course the good parents would be better at raising children.. But you wouldnt allow to bad parents two adopt or want them to abtain surregate children etc so the question is un fair. I hear your point about gay paternts but Im sorry it should be actively disencouraged. I realise this will be unpopular but somtimes the thing that is right is unpopular and harsh would you not agree my freind

You see. Here is the thing. You state that it's wrong for gay parents to have children but do you know any same sex parents? Everyone is mouthing off stating their beliefs and most base their opinions on ignorance.

I have gay friends and I know a couple from Maine. He's a doctor and his partner a university professor. Both educated, both well off. They adopted minority and disabled kids. Disabled and minority children are not the most popular when it comes to adoption. So they're providing a good home for 5 kids who would have grown up in the system.

[Vanmuscle]

There was an interesting article in Time this week on Gay Marriage. One of the most salient and telling anectodes (for me), involved a quote from a Republican Statesman (I believe he was a Congressman) in the Bush camp who facetiously asked something along the lines of, "Why not marriages between three people, why not allow that?". I think the existence of this kind of argument helps to illustrate the fundamental difficulty in debating this or any controversial topic: you can't agree on the application of an ideal to two groups of people unless you first agree on the most basic rights and priveleges of both groups.

To use a no doubt contentious analogy, consider the slavery laws of America's past: it was lawful to trade slaves as long as they were black. To my knowledge (and please correct me if I'm wrong), whites were not bought and sold in the Atlantic slave trade. The premise of the law allowing slave-trading of blacks was that blacks were a lower class of human, and in fact more like animals, meant by God to serve this purpose. In the argument between those for and against slavery in the 19th century, a crucial element in the debate was both sides' consideration of the definition of a first class human. The long-held, and editorially speaking, insidious, and reprehensible beliefs of those in favour of the tradition were hard to change: so hard that a civil war that divided an entire nation had to be fought against them. When a black person was considered a human like anyone else, the argument for justification of trading him/her like livestock became null and void.

I don't know of any gay marriage proponents who are asking for three-way weddings to become the norm, or even legal, or even considered for that matter. The same can be said for the allowance of beastial relationships, and the degradation of society into legal incest, among other atrocious "slippery-slope" consequences from the legalization of gay marriages. The most basic premise of marriage on both sides of the debate is the commitment of one person to the person that he/she loves - I don't think it's much more complicated than that. Along with the bonds of matrimony in our society come certain benefits, such as tax benefits, as well as costs, like a legally binding agreement between two people conferring rights upon the other in the event of a separation.

The basic argument for gay marriage is this: gays are people like everyone else; marriage (and its benefits and costs) is a confirmed right of two people (and thus far man and woman) who love each other, willing to commit to the bonds of matrimony; marriage by extension (and its benefits and costs) should be a confirmed right of two gay people who love each other, willing to commit to the same bonds.

The nature and title of the marriage is irrelevant: marriage and civil union should both mean the same thing in the eyes of the law (but not necessarily the church). A marriage license is the basis for the agreement of marriage, provided by the secular state. That marriage agreement can be carried out by a religious official, or civic official alike. I suspect many religious institutions will not carry out marriages of gays regardless of the outcome of the debate, but some will (this is happening in the Anglican Church in British Columbia already).

Gays are not asking for a degradation in social morals, a torrent of legal perversities, or justification of some new form of polygamy. They are asking for acceptance to have the unions between two same-sex partners recognized in our secular state as those unions are for straight folks. That being said, if we don't agree on the basic applicability of social institutions such as marriage (or civil unions or whatever) upon every couple who wants to commit to each other, this nut will be hard to crack.

Perhaps this debate will be, like the abolition of slavery, part of a human evolution away from deeply held, fanatical beliefs that marginalize one part of the population; the development of an appreciation for the positive aspects of diversity, and not the fears of it. Alternatively, this debate will never be settled, but it would be an interesting study in human behaviour to watch what happens over a longer period of time than you and I will be around.

[tuna]

You make a good point about your freinds who adopted 5 unfortunate kids, And you got me thinking maybe youre right And I think maybe you are in theory right.

who am I or any one else to deny those kids a better life with people who care for them, Loved and encouraged. nurtured and cared for.

The point is not wether gay couples make good parents but that should they be parents really. Your example is a good one and I cannot find anyway to not justify those kids happiness with your freinds. But the point Im trying to make wich is difficult without sounding hypocritical is that if you allow gays to adopt or raise children every gay couple would think it there right and then were would it end . I wish I could have found a better way of putting things.

I hate to sound biggoted and am a very tolerant person. Do you understand the point I am making since you introduced you freinds as an example you made it hard to make the point. How would you have felt if instead of a mam and dad you had two same sex parents what impact do you beleave it would have had positve negative or neither.

[alevok]

[QUOTE=SGFuryZ]


How about interracial marriages? Isn't that the same? I mean, that's like a donkey breeding with a horse to make a mule. They aren't meant to be crossbred like that, but they can be. So if gays can't marry, then how come people of different ethnicities can?

Bro, interrecial marriage and gay marriage are not same thing, wake up. Two normal people from different races can marry, thats normal, but two same sex people can not thats abnormal simple is that. Your horse and donkey example is so f..ing stupid cause they are not the same breed. Their product (mule) is born with no sex, so it can not reproduce.
What about gay couple adopting children, do you honestly believe that those children will be raised without any gay influence, c'mon. They will most likely end up being gay. They are not gonna tell them being straight is ok.
Most of you think that I do not know gays or I have never met gays. You know what most of the gays that I talked suggested that being gay is the last stop, they want to convert all of us gay, that's what they want, in their eyes we are the abnormal ones.

Bro, you can support them, you can be for gay marriage, gay presidents so on, but you must respect people who are against. For me it is untolerable and unacceptable. I can only laugh at them as pictured in Will&Grace thats all, not in the real life.

[alevok]

still misunderstanding me, it takes a female donkey and male horse to produce a mull, male & female , got it, not two male horses. And that is not wrong I never said horse&donkey is wrong.
Talk to me about history your country does not have a long history but mine does and Turks married to arabs, to europeans to africans, to asians etc interracial marriage was not prohibited back then neither now. Your people disallowed white marrying black or the other way around, not mine. And USA does not mean the whole world, if you want to talk about history learn World history not only US history.
I am much more educated than many your gay friends bro, I can speak three languages, there is more but I do not want to advertise myself. Being openminded does not mean you gotta accept everything, no way I am not accepting gay marriage and if that is gonna make me closed minded so be it.
And I am not telling anyone how they should live their lives (I dont care about gays, as long as they keep distance), but I am living in a community and as a part of a community I have every right to fight against gay marriage.

[Carlos_E]

How would you have felt if instead of a mam and dad you had two same sex parents what impact do you beleave it would have had positve negative or neither.

Since, I grew up with a Mom and Dad, that's hard to say. I don't know how I would feel about having same sex parents.

Where I grew up our family was different from others based on race. As a kid I never saw a difference. Kids are pretty much colored blind and my parents raised me to believe all people are the same no matter the color. The only time I noticed that we were different is when others pointed it out. I guess the same would hold true for kids with same sex parents. The only time they would see that they're different is when others make an issue to point it out. But if their parents let them know, yes you're different but it's OK. It shouldn't negatively effect the child's self esteem.

[Carlos_E]

[QUOTE=alevok]

What about gay couple adopting children, do you honestly believe that those children will be raised without any gay influence, c'mon. They will most likely end up being gay.

That's not true. I'll post links to a few studies that prove that is not the case.

[tuna]

Its not the fact that outsiders would ridicule but the fact that children would be predisposed to a life style that they would not normally be. I cant remember when I understood that gay people existed. But I know that had I been around gay parents then a gay way of life would have been influencing me much earlier on.

Maybe such an influence would have been positive and not affected my sexuality at all but influenced me in some other way....made me more open minded understanding...who knows

But maybe it would have affected my sexuality and influenced me toward gay ness.... Bad word I know im VERY TIRED..... or made me resentful of my up bringing and develop a weird complex around gays... Different things affect diif people in diff ways

And I just cant get gay parenting as an overall issue to sit right in my mind.

And still feel that overall it should be activley disencouraged by all societys for the better of all

Since, I grew up with a Mom and Dad, that's hard to say. I don't know how I would feel about having same sex parents.

Where I grew up our family was different from others based on race. As a kid I never saw a difference. Kids are pretty much colored blind and my parents raised me to believe all people are the same no matter the color. The only time I noticed that we were different is when others pointed it out. I guess the same would hold true for kids with same sex parents. The only time they would see that they're different is when others make an issue to point it out. But if their parents let them know, yes you're different but it's OK. It shouldn't negatively effect the child's self esteem.

[Superhuman]

Guess what. The majority is the baby-boomer generation, who are set in their ways. These people were raised to think homosexuality is perverse and wrong. Back then, if you were gay, you kept it bottled up and lived a "normal" life (miserable, but normal by societies standards at the time). My point is, these baby-boomers will eventually die, and the majority on this topic, will become the minority. One day, gay marriages will be legalized. I promise you. They put a ban on alcohol in the 1920s and look how long that lasted. This is a game of patience for the gay community, and it's a game that YOU will lose. Gay behavior won't die, but one day, you will. It's only a matter of time...

You know what? Banning alcohol was the right thing to do... just like banning gay marriage is the right thing to do. Do you know how many alcohol-related deaths there are every year? Just because the majority might think something ids okay does NOT make it acceptable. Look at Nazi Germany, they thought tat what they were doing was okay, but it obviously wasn't. Do you know why Ancient Rome fell? It's because they became decadent beyond you could imagine. Romans would watch people kill eachother for fun... they would watch Christians get killed by lions in the colliseum. On top of that, there were actually many gay orgies. Their way of thinking at that time was that women were for procreation and men were for pleasure - especially young boys. Julius Caesar himself was known to have had sex with little boys. THAT LED TO THE FALL OF ROME. They had no moral, ethical, or religious character! You know what, that is what is happening to our country. Years ago, cussing on television or kissing on TV was unacceptable. Now, gay guys kiss on TV, there is swearing all over the place, and late night sex shows. I get spam mail all the time about enlarging my penis and watching farm girls have sex with horses... WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON? This is evidence that our country is going down the toilet. Somebody needs to do soemthing, and fast. If you agree with anything that I said, I reccomend that you visit http://www.afa.org This is the website for the American Family Association. If you completely disagree with gay marriage, then visit http://www.nogaymarriage.com

God Bless, SH

[Roadkill2]

They Should All **** Chickens!!!!!!!!!!

[Tock]

Do you know why Ancient Rome fell?

Certainly. If you observe the timeline of Roman Imperialism and the Rise of Christianity, you will see that as the Christian Religion spread, the Roman Empire fell.

Coincidence? I think not!

Then, when the Roman Empire was gasping its last breath, the Christian Papacy assumed more and more political control, and the years between 400 AD and 1100 AD were the Darkest and Bleakest in European history. Learning was lost in Christian lands, but fortunately Muslim Arabs took up the slack and protected the copies of ancient texts they had, while the Christians were burning them for containing heresy.

Yah, the simutaneous rise of Christianity and decline of the Roman Empire is a little hard to miss . . . Of course there were the repeated invasions of barbarians from Asia, I suppose those could have had a minor effect. Plus corruption in government, and the little matter of the government spending more money than it had . . .

I suspect that there may be a few other reasons, but the one that stands out in stark contrast to everything else is the simutaneous rise of Christianity with the decline of the Empire. Goes to show ya what too much of a good thing can do to a nation . . .

--Tock

[alevok]

No, I'm not. You're misunderstanding me. Forget the fact that it requires a male & female horse & donkey. This has nothing to do with the argument. I was referring it to them being unable to continue the species, just like gays...



Sorry, maybe I should have clarified. Since the debate isn't world-wide acceptance of gay marriage, I should have added that I was referring to American History. Turk History doesn't matter, because your country has no say in what American laws are passed. America stands for freedom and equality, and banning gays from marrying will be encroaching upon certain Americans' freedoms. The very passing of such a ban would be un-American in itself.



So the fact that you can say "gay" in 3 languages makes you more qualified that a HOMOSEXUAL on the topic of gays??? Educated? Maybe. Able to argue your point? I'm not seeing it. You're right about open-mindedness, however, it's not black & white. There's a large spectrum of gray in between being fully open-minded and ignorant. It's much like being intelligent. There's a wide rang of gray between "genius" and "idiot". No, you don't have the right to fight against gay marriage. Not unless it's in your country. You can have your opinions about it, but they hold no weight in this debate, as you do not live in America or it's culture. You don't have to live with the decision, because it's not your country. So if the topic of gay marriage is an issue in your country, then you can object all you want, since you would have to live with the decision...

So now you are discriminating me because I am not a US citizen and I have no right to say anything about the topic, you got a real open mind bro. You do not realize that gay marriage will spread out like a desease and eventually will come to the other countries, **** you can project really good Einstein! I have every right to talk about it, not only my brother(american) , his American wife and his son(american) live in USA but also I am afraid of spreading gay marriage throughout the world.
Have you ever heard the term Globalization, whatever happens there has effects on the other side of the world, you can not say it is not our business since we dont live there. We all live on earth, we are all human, and if two men hold the right to marry in your country I have the right to know why? Think about it like AIDS, we had no idea till Rock Hudson died. Now we have also Aids victims, so you can not look at the USA as the big picture, the whole world is the big picture. You were concerned when Iraq had mass destruction bombs, now we are concerned because gay marriage is way dangerous than those bombs, bombs kill people but gay marriage kills culture.
You are just to proud to be American and you do not care what others think, thats ignorant. Well my friend, I lived in USA for 6 years and I know how the majority of the States think about gay marriage. Only gays want it and gays does not mean the majority, so if USA stands for freedom and equality why not vote over the subject, it is the only democratic way to solve the problem. What do you think the result would be? Dissappointment for gay s and people who support them.
[QUOTE=Superhuman]
"Julius Caesar himself was known to have had sex with little boys. THAT LED TO THE FALL OF ROME. They had no moral, ethical, or religious character! You know what, that is what is happening to our country. Years ago, cussing on television or kissing on TV was unacceptable. Now, gay guys kiss on TV, there is swearing all over the place, and late night sex shows. I get spam mail all the time about enlarging my penis and watching farm girls have sex with horses... WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON? This is evidence that our country is going down the toilet. Somebody needs to do soemthing, and fast."
Thats what I am talking about, if a country losses its culture, moral and ethics it will go dawnward, I do not wish that happens to States cause I see USA as my second country and I care.

[Red Ketchup]

Years ago, cussing on television or kissing on TV was unacceptable. Now, gay guys kiss on TV, there is swearing all over the place, and late night sex shows. I get spam mail all the time about enlarging my penis and watching farm girls have sex with horses... WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON? This is evidence that our country is going down the toilet.

Just out of curiosity how old are you? You say your country is going down the toilet and blah blah...

I see just the oposite... I see the worlds morals being sanitized...

Today you have hardcore porn on the net where you mostly have to go out and look for it and mild sex, swearing and stuff like that on tv (you know normal stuff that goes on daily in the real world), adult movies hidden at the back of the video rental place...

But are you old enough to remember that back in the 60's 70's and 80's there were hard core adult porn movie theatres on every street corners? Back then you could not say "dämmit" on TV, but you could LEGALY purchase hardcore kiddy pornography in an adult bookstore? People commiting crimes like rape or child molestation were mostly slapped on the wrist and sent on their way....

I think things are just fine today... if anything we are socially better than we ever were...

Red

[alevok]

Look, I am not against gays, I am against gay marriage because marriage is a holly union of a man and a woman. Family is the smallest but the most important function of a society. If you damage the family you damage the whole society, it is called the domino affect.
You know why I am comcerned about gay marriage in USA, you know it well but you rather play stupid. Dont you think gay couples can fly to US and get married there? Elton John is going to soon. Wake up, allowing gay marriage in US will be a new trend for other gay people from different countries. I do not know if you have been abroad, I guess not, if you did you could see American influence on entire world. Thats why I am concerned, got it?
According to you I can not say a word on this topic because I am not living there, you are so full of ****, (americans dont live in Iraq but you get concerned and send your army there)when it comes to gay rights and **** you are the greatest support, what about human rights, what about my speech of freedom? Who do you think you are telling me I can not say things about gay marriage, this is an open forum you idiot, everyone can express their opinions, you can be against me but dont ****ing dare to tell me stay back.

[Carlos_E]

Alevok, you keep bringing up the issue of ancient Rome and men having sex with boys. It gives the impression that you believe all homosexuals are child molesters.

Gay marriage is between two consenting adults. No one is asking to have sex with kids.

[Carlos_E]

February 9, 2004

News Release
University of Massachusetts Amherst

UMass Study of Census Data Shows that 8,000 Massachusetts Children with Same-Sex Parents would Greatly Benefit from Gay Marriage

AMHERST, Mass. - U.S. Census data shows that thousands of same-sex couples in Massachusetts need the economic protections of legal marriage, according to a study by a team of University of Massachusetts economists. The study, published today by the Institute for Gay and Lesbian Strategic Studies (IGLSS), finds that more than 8,000 children in Massachusetts are being raised by same-sex couples.

“Legal marriage provides many important rights and responsibilities for couples, especially when they are raising children,” said co-author M. V. Lee Badgett, associate professor of economics at the University of Massachusetts Amherst and research director of IGLSS.

"One in four same-sex couples in Massachusetts is raising a child, and those families are more economically vulnerable than married couples.”

The study found that same-sex couples with children have 10 percent lower household incomes than married parents. That financial inequality is widened because same-sex partners do not have access to the private and public benefits of marriage.

The authors also found that 11 percent of same-sex couples are interracial, compared with only 5 percent of married couples. Individuals in same-sex couples were more likely to be African American or Hispanic than married people, as well.

Same-sex couples live in every county and contribute to our state’s diversity in many ways,” noted another co-author, Michael Ash. “Almost half of people in same-sex couples have a bachelor’s or graduate degree, and most work in the private sector. Same-sex couples are important contributors to our economy and communities.”

Other research about same-sex couples shows that they indirectly contribute to economic growth by signifying a climate of tolerance.

“Businesspeople and policymakers should worry that a referendum campaign to ban marriage for same-sex couples in Massachusetts could create a climate of divisiveness and intolerance. We’ve seen that happen during other states’ anti-gay referenda, and it could happen here, too,” warns IGLSS Acting Executive Director Glenda Russell.

The report predicts that approximately 8,500 same-sex couples who live in Massachusetts will marry over the next few years. Some new spouses might become eligible for health care benefits through their spouse’s employer. But the report also shows that the vast majority of Massachusetts businesses will have no additional costs for covering new spouses who will become eligible for health care benefits.

The other report co-authors are Nancy Folbre and Lisa Saunders of the economics department at the UMass Amherst, and Randy Albelda from the department of economics at the UMass Boston.