Whiney Member
Why don't we hear more of this in the media. If there are other countries in the world that feel this way, why is their story not covered every day in the media. All I heard about last night was how the French population still was against the efforts in Iraq. The French against some sort of movement that requries fighting....???....please, tell me something I don't already know.Originally Posted by Rak_Ani
Good post Rak...
peace,
ttgb
Anabolic Member
Because face it-Most other countries have turned into Pussies..those who were not pussies before...Most countries with an international media voice, are not famous for stepping up to tyrants or trouble makers.
Whiney Member
Yeah...I guess you are right....I think most of the US citizens are behind all of the efforts going on also...but unfortanutely we hear more from the minority that are against the terrorism efforts. Pussies...Well Said.
peace,
ttgb
Anabolic Member
Glad to see someone else here who knows their FACTS. Facts are facts and dont lie! Id like to see bdtr do the same thing. And anyone else for that matter that believes the way he does. Lay the facts out on the table so everyone can really see what uv been "holding ur tongue" about. Iv already called him out on his ridiculous comments and as u can see he hasnt responded with the proof iv asked for.
OG
Anabolic Member
Well . . .
This thread has rapidly degenerated into a lot of mush . . . that's about it for me . . .
As the good book says,
"Never wrestle with a pig; you'll only annoy it, and you both get dirty."
"Never get in a farting contest with a skunk."
--Tock
Anabolic Member
Its ok Tock, with ur responses it seemed like u didnt bother reading the posts anyway. I think u just liked reading ur own...
OG
Anabolic Member
It just doesn't make any sense to continue with this because
1) I couldn't get Militiaguy to answer my question, and
2) y'all jumped on me because I wasn't satisfied with your response to the question I asked him . . .
3) Now some newbie comes in, says he ain't gonna read the whole thread, then spouts some BS and now what?
Nah . . . enough of this nonsense . . . It was fun while it lasted, though . . .
-Tock
Retired Vet
Tock, the only reason the thread has turned to mush for you is because you and some others here can't comprehend the truth when it stares you in the face. Its bleeding hearted liberals and closed middled neo-nazi's who annoy me almost as much as these terror groups, because they (terrorists) reply on YOUR support to hit YOUR people and country.
You know, it was liberals who DEMANDED the release of Mohammed Otta from Israeli detention although he'd been tried and convicted in an Israeli court of terrorist charges, it was in 1995. America gave him a new life in a free land, and his repayment methods?... Lead a group of terrorists in the worse terror attack in history, the attack on 9/11 WTC. Without liberals like these people couldn't operate as freely as they do.
Rak-Ani, thanks for the replies here. Worth the wait.
AR-Hall of Famer / Retired
btw - I cant see why anyone has a problem with Israelis being Zionists - but what I am tired of is people expecting AMERICANS to be - I am all for supportive relations with the Israeli state - but you can be darn sure I focus on AMERICAN interests before anything else, and that is the litmus test
Banned
salam alaykom
yes i am sure its merkava a 10 year old child can know difference btw merkava and t55 their is a big difference in size and shape and sla t55 wasnt a threat for us, merkava have a good artificial intellegence chips it can detect anything taller than 1 m and kill it so we used to search for merkavas to hit them .
and for the jihad i dont support any military act against civilian but those in israel are not civilian they came from usa and many europe countries just to take the land of the arabs and build "moustawtanat"
Member
I am not even going to hold back on this one... MilitiaGuy you sir are an a$$hole. Fuq you and your stupid ****ing picture you got there. I'll give respect to anyone, but never to someone that has no reguard for human life. Respond in anyway you want, but believe me I will not read anymore of what you have to say.
CC
Retired Vet
M'guy, honestly I'm not flaming you here, but sometimes your english is a little hard to comprehend. For starts, the thread isn't about the difference between a Merkava MBT and the T55. I've seen plently of both thank you. Anyway from reading what you've said I guess your well north of the former security zone and pretty d*mn safe, just like most of the Hezbollah member's I've had the displeasure to chance accross.
I guess at this stage, Rak_Ani's replies have pretty much answered most questions here, some of the earlier one's regarding Zionists etc I suspect won't be answered for fear of being contradicted by Rak_Ani's sincere honesty. You know M'guy, and others like you. You should read the links I've posted, accept the Israeli state as it stands and get on with your sorry little fcuked up lives. One final point I'd like to make, apart from limited democracy in Lebanon, and full democracy extended to Arabs in Israel absolutley NONE of your other Arab brothers will extend you the same rights apart from the USA which daily fights (and sadly) for your rights to democracy in countries like Afghanistan and Iraq.
AR-Hall of Famer / Retired
what the hell are you talking about? if the women and children in Israel can be classified as "non-civilians" by you simply because they came from the US and Europe to live there - why should they make any distiction in killing palestinian children, who very well may be in the stage of being indoctrinated to commit a suicide/murder? If you think Israeli women and children are combatants, why do you complain if they kill palestinian kids when aiming for terrorists? after all, according to your thinking, they are probably going to be terrorists one day, why not kill them early on
Retired Vet
As we say in Ireland "good on ya boyo"what the hell are you talking about? if the women and children in Israel can be classified as "non-civilians" by you simply because they came from the US and Europe to live there - why should they make any distiction in killing palestinian children, who very well may be in the stage of being indoctrinated to commit a suicide/murder? If you think Israeli women and children are combatants, why do you complain if they kill palestinian kids when aiming for terrorists? after all, according to your thinking, they are probably going to be terrorists one day, why not kill them early on
Anabolic Member
what the hell are you talking about? if the women and children in Israel can be classified as "non-civilians" by you simply because they came from the US and Europe to live there - why should they make any distiction in killing palestinian children, who very well may be in the stage of being indoctrinated to commit a suicide/murder? If you think Israeli women and children are combatants, why do you complain if they kill palestinian kids when aiming for terrorists? after all, according to your thinking, they are probably going to be terrorists one day, why not kill them early on
Couldnt have said it any better myself...Im glad ur finally seeing what he/they stand for.
OG
Banned
not all women in isreal are non-combatants. some are in the militry.what the hell are you talking about? if the women and children in Israel can be classified as "non-civilians" by you simply because they came from the US and Europe to live there - why should they make any distiction in killing palestinian children, who very well may be in the stage of being indoctrinated to commit a suicide/murder? If you think Israeli women and children are combatants, why do you complain if they kill palestinian kids when aiming for terrorists? after all, according to your thinking, they are probably going to be terrorists one day, why not kill them early on
in isreal from what i understand militry duty is mandatory for all single non-married women including men as well for about 16-20 months.
if you look at the statistics from the cia website which is www.cia.gov
you'll notice that on http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/...k/geos/is.html (israel)
that roughly 51,080 males and 53,496 females are reaching military age annually. this from a total population of around 6 million.
you claim that the palistinian children might become suicde bombers that maybe true but at what ratio.
if you look at the total population of palistine you'll notice that way less then 0.25% of people have actually been involved in terrorism against israeli citizens.
on the other hand you have israel which on the cia factbook states that israel has a 2.5 million people that are fit for militry service(of the right age)
2.5 million is just under 50% of israel population and sooner or later most/or some of these people will serve in the occupation of palistine.
there is more chance of a child in israel becoming a soldiers then a child in palistine becoming a suicde bomber.
this is a rough estimate. because i don't have a calculator i will work this out quick guess. for every 1 child in palistine which becomes a suicede bomber roughly anywhere between 1,000 to 5,000+ israeli children will join the millitry or are eligable to join at some stage in their life. 1,000 if there are 100 suicide bomings a year or 5,000 if there are 25 suicde bombings a year.
this is taking into account what the cia say that that roughly 51,080 males and 53,496 females are reaching military age annually. total of about 104,576 people reaching millitry age annually.
Last edited by physio_sport; 03-18-2004 at 05:48 PM.
Banned
if you look at the statistics between September 29, 2000 to October 11 2003
the israel millitry has killed at least 476 Palestinian children,
and the palistinian terrorists have killed about 106 Israelis children.
all where under the age of 18 and have become victims of the violence in Israel and the occupied territories.
and the same goes with women killed by the isreal millitry. the statistics show that the isreal millitry kill more women, pregnant women, children and babies then palistinian suiced bombers.
and also you can find that the palistinians have attacked 2 isreal schools and the isreal army have attacked over 185 palistinian schools since September 29, 2000
so who are the real terrorists?
sources of information
http://www.un.org/depts/dpa/qpal/ - united nations
http://rememberthesechildren.org/ - dead children in the conflict
http://www.guardian.co.uk/internatio...933352,00.html - bombing by jewish terrorist group on palistinian children in school
http://www.dci-pal.org/first.html - defense for children internation
http://www.dci-pal.org/links/links.html - links to other places for info
Retired Vet
Physio, nice replies. But does that mean every country with mandatory service is a target for Islamic terrorists?. Like Spain, and most other European countries?
As for Israel's military strenght (numbers), who can blaim them when a country which takes up less than 1% of the total land mass of the middle east, and a population of less than 6 million are surrounded by an enemy numbering 300million.
As for civilian casualities in the present intifada, well WHO STARTED IT?
The Lord God
That goes back millennia. Chicken and the egg.
Retired Vet
Actually Rambo, I'm talking about intifada II. Physio and M'guy will know what I'm talking about.
The Lord God
Sorry Bouncer, I thought you meant in general.
Queen of Zion
OK, I knew I forgot something. A story. True story. Happened this week, at a checkpoint in the territories. You probably haven't heard this one, so I'll tell you, and then you might want to try and answer a few questions for me.
A few days ago a 10 years old Palestinian kid was given a bag containing a large bomb by his "brothers" (Palestinian terrorists), and told to take it accross an IDF (Israeli army) checkpoint, and in return he'll get paid. The plan was, that in case the child was stopped, the terrorists would detonate the bomb from a distance and that way they would "at least" get to kill Israeli soldiers. The child was stopped, but the bomb didn't go off because of a "technical problem". These things aren't unusual. The Palestinian terrorists have been filmed hiding behind children as they shoot at Israeli soldiers, or taken children out of school to throw stones at soldiers. Several Palestinian mothers have been interviewed after their children became suicide bombers and said they were honored that theirs sons became "martyrs" and would gladly give their others sons for the same "cause".
Now you tell me, if you were shooting at me, and I shot back at you only to hit your son, which you placed in front of you for self protection, who's fault is it? Mine, for defending myself, or yours for sticking you kid in the line of fire?
Regarding the IDF, yes, people do get killed by mistake. It happens in every war, but between that and claiming the IDF delibirately attacks civilians....Did you know that the PA used bodies of people killed in road accidents and claimed they were killed by IDF? This was checked by an international mission of doctors who reached the conclusion many of the dead died from accidents or disease. Did you know that the Palestinians fake funerals and one of them was even filmed and shown on Israeli TV with the "deceased" (sp'?) running off when an explosion occured? Did you know that the IDF is probably one of the most humanitarian armies in the world, with a superior value of human life? Did you know that if an IDF soldier shoots someone, and then shoots them again "to make sure they're dead" it's illeagal and that soldier will be sent to jail? Did you know that IDF soldiers are put on trial if they know of mistreatment or violence against others by their fellow soldiers of officers and don't report? How many soldiers died in Jenin? Do you honestly think this number would have been killed if the IDF didn't do it's best not to kill innocent people? Wouldn't it have been easier, in your opinion, to just go and wipe out the whole camp? Why wasn't that done then? It would have surely spared the lives of the dead Israeli soldiers. So having said that, where does that put your points about all Israelis going to the army?
Yes, it's manadory to serve in the Israeli army, as it is in many countries including European countries such as Germany, Greece, and if I'm not mistaken Italy. So if a bomb went off in one of these countries it would be ok, because they're not just civilians, they're either soldier, were soldiers, or will be soldiers....right?
And speaking of that, it's mandatory in Arabic countries as well, so does that mean I can hop onto my F-16 now and bomb the hell out of Damascus?
You said "not all women in isreal are non-combatants. some are in the militry.
in isreal from what i understand militry duty is mandatory for all single non-married women including men as well for about 16-20 months."
And your point is? I'm an Israeli female, I did my service in the IDF, and I can't even kill a cockroach, let alone a person. Does the fact I served in the army make my life worth less?
And to the person who asked me why the media doesn't support the US.....Come to Israel and you'll see how much you're supported. Israel stands behind the US 100% on the war against terrorism. It's time the rest of the world does the same.
And Bouncer, you tell physio his reply is nice???? What's nice about it? Read what he said, it's exactly what terrorists say when they shoot and Israeli baby "this baby would have grown up to be a soldier".
Anabolic Member
Rak_Ani, i saw the story ur talking about on the news. The Israeli soldiers let the kid go because they knew him and knew he didnt know what he was carrying. Sad part was they showed the little kid on camera after he found out it was a bomb he was carrying. All his freiends were patting him on the back and cheering him. Sick!!! Also, a reporter asked the little kid what he wanted to be when he grows up? He said a martyr (sp). 10 years old kids want to be firemen or baseball players not killers. That just shows u how their brought up and the hatred thats drilled into their heads. Sad!
OG
Banned
I have been following this thread and cannot sit by quietly any longer.
Do you not see the difference between those animals who deliberatly target inocent children and women, to the those who target armed militant terrorists, and sadly inocent lives are cought in crossfire?????
Are you insane to make such a comparison of numbers. There is no gray scale when it comes to an animal who blows up children at a pizza restaurant, and the military who targets the killers.
Retired Vet
And I'd like to touch on something else here. Apparently people don't die of natural causes in the West bank and Gaza, nope, everyone is murdered by the IDF!!
I was looking for the story today, but couldn't find it. It tells the true story behind some of the headlines over the last few years relating to claimed Palestinian civilian casualities. How one old lady was reported killed by IDF sniper fire, but when the story was investigated it turned out she'd been killed in a car accident. There were many, many more. There's one reported base of a mother sending her child out as a suicide bomber, he blew himself up and killed some soldiers in the Jenin incident a few months back.
Hey, a joke "Did you hear about the Palestinian who bought himself a doll in a sex shop?.... She blew herself up on the busride home"!!
Banned
Ariel Sharon was the act that triggered the second Intifada.
On 28 September 2000, the then opposition leader, heavily guarded by Israeli soldiers and policemen, walked in to al-Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem.
It was a move certain to provoke an angry reaction from the Muslim population, who hold the mosque to be the third holiest site in Islam.
Fighting broke out between the Palestinians defending al-Aqsa and security forces guarding Sharon. Seven Palestinians were killed in the fighting and thus the second Intifada - Intifadat al-Aqsa - was started.
The Intifada was and still is - an expression of a deep disappointment and frustration over the ongoing disrespect and denial of basic rights for Palestinians caused by the occupation - including the right to free access to Jerusalem, security and development, and the refugees' right to return.
Anabolic Member
Hey Bouncer, look what i found. Its a video that shows the fake funeral ur talking about. It can be viewed from this site.
http://www.factsofisrael.com/blog/archives/000012.html Quarter of the way down the page it says "To watch the 3 minute video, click here."
It was somewhat comical. The supposably dead body falls off the stretcher and he stands up. Scarying the crap out of all the people marching around him. They all thought he was really dead. It just shows u their just trying to start trouble.
OG
Queen of Zion
Yep. You will always find a reason to kill. Those you never lack. If it's not
Ariel Sharon, then it's the shooting of a terrorist, and if it's not that then it's the security fense, and if not that then it's the date some arab (practically any Arab) died years ago, and if not that then there surely is some rock somewhere you will claim belongs to you and was taken by "the Zionists" and that of course is a reason for you to kill. You live for hatred, for death, and for war. If Israel didn't exist I'm pretty sure you'll find a reason good enough for you to start hating anyone else, even Switzerland.
Golda Meir was right when she said that peace will only come when you start loving your children more than you hate Israel.
You say: "It was a move certain to provoke an angry reaction from the Muslim population, who hold the mosque to be the third holiest site in Islam." Now for one minute pretend to be a man and prove it. Give me the exact place in the Koran where it says anything about the Temple Mount, or anywhere else in Jerusalem. Jerusalem as a city or any part of it isn't mentioned in the Koran, not even once and therefore that makes this statement just another one of your lies.
You say: "Fighting broke out between the Palestinians defending al-Aqsa and security forces guarding Sharon. Seven Palestinians were killed in the fighting and thus the second Intifada - Intifadat al-Aqsa - was started."
Defending it from what? From Sharon? Well, I know the guy is fat, but not enough to cause the Temple Mount any damage, and if he did, he'd have the religious Jewish Israelis to answer to because this is an important and holly place for Judaism.
You say: "The Intifada was and still is - an expression of a deep disappointment and frustration over the ongoing disrespect and denial of basic rights for Palestinians caused by the occupation - including the right to free access to Jerusalem, security and development, and the refugees' right to return".
The Palestinians could have had all of the above (except for "right of return) if they would have chosen to sit and talk with Ehud Barak instead of turn the guns given to them by Israel, against Israel. They chose war and therefore will have to deal with the concequences of their actions.
The "right" of return is BS. Show me one example of a precedence (sp) and I'll listen to your arguement about it. Untill then sit down and shut up. Your people started a war, they lost, they ran away, and that's their problem. All the Jewish refugees that fled to Israel from Arabic countries have been taken in by Israel, given citizenship and are now living a normal life. Your country, on the other hand, has been keeping Palestinian refugees in camps for over 50 years.
Do you see the difference between us? Do you understand what it means to decide that giving a good life for your children is more important than seeking to satisfy your hatred?
You enjoy playing the victim and that will not stop as long as you don't change your state of mind. If you got a Palestine, you will always find something else you want. It's the way you are. You will also most likely ignore my post, or chose to reply to it with lies while avoiding my questions, but that too is just the way you are.
Well, at least you have the fat Jew you so much love to hate who you can blame for this madness.
Banned
youre statement about israel or the not being metioned in the quran is wrong, i would think this is becuase of your lack of knowlage in islamic and quranic teachings.
israel, al-aqsa mosque and Dome of the Rock Mosque are mentioned in the quran
for example Qur’an, in Surah 17, verse 1:
"{Glory be to Him Who made His servant to go in a night from the Sacred Mosque to the Remote Mosque [al-Aqsa mosque] of which We have blessed the precincts, so that We may show to him some of Our signs; surely He is the Hearing, the Seeing.}"
there are many quotes about israel in the quran. you seem to also forget that the muslims also belive in jesus and that jesus is going to return to save mankind by teaching them about god.
if you read the quran you'll notice that the jesus is mentioned more times in the quran then the prophet mohammed. and as you know you can't talk about jesus without talking about isreal and jerusalum.
back in the prophet mohammeds days people including the prophet mohammed used to pray facing the Jerusalem/al-Aqsa Mosque. since the building of the mekka people now have changed the direction in which they pray towards the mekka.
also the muslims belive that mohammed travelled to jerusalum and thats where god brought him upto heaven this event was known as the "night journey"
“Glory to (Allah) Who did take His servant for a Journey by night from the Sacred Mosque (Al-Masjid al-Haram) to the farthest Mosque (Al-Masjid al-Aqsa), whose precincts We did bless, in order that We might show him some of Our Signs: for He is the One Who heareth and seeth (all things).” (al-Isra’: 1)
also some different sects of islam belive in things called the hadeets/sunnahs which are meant to be saying or speaches said by mohammed in one of these saying he said
“A prayer in the Sacred Mosque [in Makkah] is worth 100,000 prayers, a prayer in my mosque [in Madinah] is worth 1,000, and a prayer in Jerusalem [al-Aqsa Mosque] is worth 500 prayers more than in any other mosque.”
im sorry that i couldn't list anymore quotes because
1. i don't have the time to type it up.
2. there are so many that if i do i'll basically end up writing out pages and pages and pages of quotes becuase there mentioned so many times in the quran,hedeeths/sunnahs(for those muslims who belive them)
3. ive basically proved you wrong so i don't see the point of writing any more quotes. if you want to learn more, go get a quaran and do your own reading.
Retired Vet
So Physio, make it simple for us idiots here. Where in the Koran does it mention Jerusalem ?
Banned
salam alaykom
nice quote brother ,but dont bother trying to convince a zionist he will always try to proove ur wrong.
Retired Vet
You spelt 'Prove' wrong.
Retired Vet
Ok so, since neither M'guy or Physio answered my question regarding Jerusalem in the Quran I done some research myself on it. The latter half of this makes good reading.
For 3000 years the eternal city of Jerusalem has held the most exalted position in the Jewish religion, and a place of unparalleled importance in Jewish life and history.
First and foremost, King Solomon built the first Holy Temple in Jerusalem between the years 965 and 928 BCE. At that time the Holy Temple was the stronghold of the Jewish religion, containing the Holy Ark and the holiest altar in the nation for bringing ritual sacrifices as offerings to God. The people of Israel would come to the Holy Temple to pray and to give thanks but especially to perform sacrifices on the three festivals of pilgrimage: Passover, Shavuot and Sukkot. The actual performance of the sacrifices in the Holy Temple was reserved for the priests (cohanim) who were descendants of Aaron. But in the year 586 the Babylonian monarch Nebuchadnezzer invaded Jerusalem, destroyed the Holy Temple carried off its implements made of precious metals, and exiled the Jews of Jerusalem to Babylon.
Although Nebuchadnezzer had laid waste to the Holy Temple, its holiness remained and it was then the Jewish exiles swore: "if I forget you Jerusalem, may I forget my right hand and may my tongue adhere to the roof of my mouth if I do not remember, if I do not hold Jerusalem above my greatest joy," and generations of Jews have kept this vow to the present day. The nation longingly remembered the holiness of Jerusalem throughout thousands of years of exile.
When Nehemiah returned from Babylon around 536 with the first group of exiles the city was rebuilt, and the Holy Temple and Jerusalem were again the principle focus of national religious life until the destruction of the Second Temple by the Romans in the year 70 CE. Following the suppression of Bar Kochva's revolt, the Roman Legions burned all of Jerusalem to ashes and in its place built a pagan city they called Aelia Capitolina, which Jews were forbidden from entering for generations.
The strong heartfelt desire every Jew has to see Jerusalem rebuilt in his lifetime and the centuries deep Jewish affection for the city King David founded are embodied in many important customs and prayers from Judaism's great sages. For example, the prayer: "And to Jerusalem, your city mercifully return, and dwell within it as you said. And build in it soon in our lifetimes, the building for eternity, and may it hold a place for King David's throne," is repeated by every praying Jew several times a day.
In brief, those are the religious fundamentals on which Jerusalem's holiness stands in the Jewish faith. The Rambam outlines it even more succinctly: "It is a tradition with all that the place in which David and Solomon built the sacrificial altar and which held the Holy Ark on its floor is the place in which Abraham built an altar and bound Isaac on it, and it is the place on which Noah built when he came out of the ark, and it is the altar on which Cain and Abel sacrificed, and on which Adam sacrificed when he was created and on which he was created. As the sages say: "He was created from his place of atonement." In other words, as the passage from the Rambam illustrates, the reason Jerusalem is the holiest city in Judaism is that in the 5000 year span of Jewish religious life the nation's devotion to God has intersected more with this city and more intensely than with any other.
Various factors make Jerusalem holy to Muslims At first glance, the holiness of Jerusalem in the Muslim tradition is also religious at heart, and stems from the belief that Muhammad the prophet founder of Islam rose to heaven from the site of the Holy Temple in Jerusalem. But it seems other factors beside religion played a role too.
After the prophet died in June 632 a series of successors, or caliphs, assumed authority as Islam's leaders. Between 661 and 750 the Umayyad Dynasty held the Caliphate and ruled from Damascus. During the time they ruled, on account of various internal and external pressures the Umayyads exerted enormous effort to elevate Jerusalem's status, perhaps even to the level of Mecca.
Daniel Pipes wrote in the Middle East Quarterly: "The first Umayyad ruler, Mu'awiya, chose Jerusalem as the place where he ascended to the caliphate; he and his successors engaged in a construction program - religious edifices, a palace, and roads - in the city. The Umayyads possibly had plans to make Jerusalem their political and administrative capital...But Jerusalem is primarily a city of faith, and, as the Israeli scholar Izhak Hasson explains, the "Umayyad regime was interested in ascribing an Islamic aura to its stronghold and center."
Toward this end (as well as to assert Islam's presence in its competition with Christianity), the Umayyad caliph built Islam's first grand structure, the Dome of the Rock, right on the spot of the Jewish Temple, in 688-91. This remarkable building is not just the first monumental sacred building of Islam but also the only one that still stands today in roughly its original form."
The next step the Umayyads took to make Jerusalem holy to Islam relates to a passage in the Quran (17:1) that describes Muhammad's Night Journey to heaven: "Glory to He who took His servant by night from the Sacred Mosque to the furthest mosque (al masjidi al aqsa)."
Pipes explains that when this Quranic passage was first revealed, in about 621, a place called the "Sacred Mosque" already existed in Mecca. "In contrast," he goes on, "the 'furthest mosque' was a turn of phrase, not a place. Some early Muslims understood it as metaphorical or as a place in heaven."
In other words, the line about the furthest mosque in the Quran is just a figure of speech. Which means there is no basis for associating the furthest mosque - the Quranic location of the start of Muhammad's Night Journey - with the city of Jerusalem.
In 715, Pipes writes, the Umayyads did something very clever. To build up the prestige of their domain, they built a second mosque in Jerusalem, again on the Temple Mount, and named this one the "Furthest Mosque" (i.e. al-masjidi al-aqsa) the exact same name written in the holy Quran. And in so doing, the Umayyads forced the city of Jerusalem to assume a role in the life of the prophet Muhammad. A role which it never had. This is how the Muslim belief in the holiness of Jerusalem, which persists to this day, originated.
It's impossible to escape the conclusion, as the Palestinian historian A.L. Tibawi writes, that building an actual Al Aqsa Mosque "gave reality to the figurative name used in the Quran..." As Pipes points out, moreover, "it had the hugely important effect of giving Jerusalem a place in the Quran post hoc which naturally imbued the city with a higher status in Islam". Which is another way of saying, before the Umayyads built Dome of the Rock and Al Aksa, Jerusalem had no status at all in Islam.
Israeli scholar Izhak Hasson says: "construction of the Dome of the Rock and al-Aqsa mosque, the rituals instituted by the Umayyads on the Temple Mount and the dissemination of Islamic-oriented Traditions regarding sanctity of the site, all point to the political motives which underlay the glorification of Jerusalem among the Muslims." In other words the sanctification of Jerusalem in Islam is based on the Umayyad building program. And their cleverness in bringing about a (baseless) association between the al-masjid al-aqsa mentioned in the holy Quran and the mosque they built on the Temple Mount and purposely named Al Aqsa, precisely so that it would assume a measure of Quranic holiness it did not have.
Perhaps the most convincing evidence of Islam's very loose and insignificant bond with Jerusalem is how the Muslims related to the city after the Caliphate passed from the Umayyads to the Abbisid's in 750. Daniel Pipes writes: "Jerusalem fell into near-obscurity. For the next three and a half centuries, books praising this city lost favor and the construction of glorious buildings not only came to an end but existing ones fell apart (the dome over the rock collapsed in 1016.)
These days, the never-ending cry for a Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital surely contains a trace of the claim that the city is holy in Islam. But essentially the historic record shows that the actions and circumstances on which the claim is based aren't very holy at all. In fact, by any standard of religious values in any society in the world, artificially imbuing a place with holiness, through wordplay and administrative sleight of hand, constitute the very opposite of holiness.
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Queen of Zion
The quote you brought doesn't mention neither Israel, Jerusalem (El Kudz) or the Temple Mount (El Aktza). The brakets were added by you and are your interpretation. Trust me on this. I have Muslim friends (good friends in fact) that I have verified this with in the past. Neither of the above is mentioned in the Koran. In the Bible, on the other hand, Jerusalem is mentioned hundreds of times, plus, there is a sura in the Koran that speaks about leading the Jewish people to the land "alla" promissed them. I don't know the exact sura but I will ask one of my Muslim friends at work tomorrow.
Does the Koran also speak about what Jesus preached for, or is he used there only as another excuse for a war? If the Muslims believe the things Jesus preached for, then why have they zero tollerance for anything different than their strict ways? Why did they paint the roof of Joseph's tomb green, and why do they systematically damage holly Jewish and Christian places?
Did you know that before the eastern part of Jerusalem was freed by the IDF not one Arabic leader has bothered visiting it? (I'm talking about the time it was under Jordanian rule). If it's so holly, why didn't they come then?
You have proven nothing. Give me exact quotes with the words El Akza or El Kudz. Until then, words like "many quotes" and "many times" don't prove anything.
Queen of Zion
If I'm the Zionist you were refering to, then you might want to keep in mind I'm a very proud "she". Although I have said this in my posts, you wouldn't know that as you obviously don't bother reading through anything that is different than your views.
Retired Vet
You spelt 'Prove' and 'Your' wrong.
The Lord God
The Koran consistently references the "Children of Israel". Any theologian can tell you the number of times that Israel or its descendants are referenced is very high. The only mosque that fits that "remote" description is that of which physio sport speaks.
Jesus is upheld in the Koran as a prophet who is of the highest caliber. His teachings ARE seen in it. The difference between islam and christianity is that the muslims never had a publicist (Paul), nor an agency (the church), to change the literal meaning of passages to adapt to a modern world. Christianity and Islam have the same philosophies on many things, but Christianity has adapted, and Islam has not. Anyone remember, "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth?" That's in the bible. Do you know Christians who oppose the death penalty? Yes. Christianity did a MUCH better job of "evolving" than islam. That's why many consider Islamic tradition to be barbaric or antiquated, because it never bended to the passing of time.
The Lord God
Also, Bouncer, that was a good read, but remember the source. How impartial is an Israeli historian going to be regarding muslim history? The problem with so much literature is we never know the basis of the researchers motives...
Banned
well actually like rambo said the only mosque that fitts into "remote" is the al-aqsa mosque. and also because mohammed himself traveled there its the only one.
and rak_ani you might have "muslim" firends but are they real muslims or the holiday muslims who only act like muslims but do not follow in islam itself.
a real muslims prays daily, reads the quran and belives in all the prohets including moses,jesus and mohammed.
just becuase your firends are "muslims" doesn't mean they know anything about islam.
they could be those people who just tell other people they are muslims but do not follow the teachings or they probably haven't even studied the quran.
Banned
salam alaykom
you're probably wright, it's like im talking to myself sometimes.
i've posted the quotes and information yet people still won't belive it's there.
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