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    Quote Originally Posted by marcus300 View Post
    I didn’t know you was only taking hgh for replacement therapy. What disadvantages have you seen because your gh output is slightly lower than the normal and what advantages do you really think 2ius is going to give you?

    It’s the IGF spike following the gh injection what actually activates the negative feedback loop and there are studies out there if you go looking for them which shows that suppression can last hours, so if you constantly use gh long enough and we all do because its pointless otherwise because the benefits only start to appear after months then your natural pules will be suppressed while injecting exogenous hgh . So it’s the elevation of the IGF what triggers the negative feedback loop which suppresses endogenous hgh.
    I have got a load of studies on it somewhere which I shared here not that long ago which show various dosages showing suppression. Ive got them somewhere on my computer but if you do a search on the net I am sure you will be able to find them, if not when I have time I post them.
    Hey Marcus, I'm training at 7:00 till 8:30 then doing 10 i.u.'s of Humalog followed 10 minutes later by 200 mcg MGF followed by 100 mcg IGF-1Lr3. Nutritionally I drink 50 g Dextrose/10g creatine/10 g glutamine 5 minutes post Slin. 15 minutes post slin 80 g whey protein/water. 1 hour post slin 60 g protein/50 g carb meal. It's now 10:00. I go to bed around 11:30. At 1:00 am I wake up and take 75 mcg T4 and 7 i.u.'s GH. Is there anything you'd change about this given what you've said regarding the IGF-1?

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Titan99 View Post
    Hey Marcus, I'm training at 7:00 till 8:30 then doing 10 i.u.'s of Humalog followed 10 minutes later by 200 mcg MGF followed by 100 mcg IGF-1Lr3. Nutritionally I drink 50 g Dextrose/10g creatine/10 g glutamine 5 minutes post Slin. 15 minutes post slin 80 g whey protein/water. 1 hour post slin 60 g protein/50 g carb meal. It's now 10:00. I go to bed around 11:30. At 1:00 am I wake up and take 75 mcg T4 and 7 i.u.'s GH. Is there anything you'd change about this given what you've said regarding the IGF-1?

    By the time we reach the age of 30 years old are hgh levels are already declining and continue to at around 12 to 15% per decade and between the ages of 30-40yrs old the amount we produce anyway isn't enough to repair all the damage what's occurring through our natural aging process ahyway. So I wouldn't worry to much about preserving your natural hgh levels because if using exogenous gh your tiny amount of natural gh is going to be supressed anyway.


    I think LR3 is a complete waste of money and its all hype your better sticking with hgh IMHO and wouldn't advice over the internet regarding slin due to how dangerous it can be if not used correctly so I only advice regarding slin face to face. I've only ever tried it twice and didn't like it and found better results with other hormones.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marcus300 View Post
    By the time we reach the age of 30 years old are hgh levels are already declining and continue to at around 12 to 15% per decade and between the ages of 30-40yrs old the amount we produce anyway isn't enough to repair all the damage what's occurring through our natural aging process ahyway. So I wouldn't worry to much about preserving your natural hgh levels because if using exogenous gh your tiny amount of natural gh is going to be supressed anyway.


    I think LR3 is a complete waste of money and its all hype your better sticking with hgh IMHO and wouldn't advice over the internet regarding slin due to how dangerous it can be if not used correctly so I only advice regarding slin face to face. I've only ever tried it twice and didn't like it and found better results with other hormones.
    So rather than mess with the IGF-1, you'd think it would be a better use of $$ to just go to 8-10 i.u.'s of GH (that would actually be a little cheaper.)?

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    Quote Originally Posted by marcus300 View Post
    What disadvantages have you seen because your gh output is slightly lower than the normal and what advantages do you really think 2ius is going to give you?
    If the lab range represents 95% of results (I don't know which percentile they are using) then I'd be in the bottom 1%. I wouldn't call that 'slightly lower' than normal.

    I have seen a few doctors over the years regarding poor sleep, low energy, impaired mental ability, and just low QOL. They just gave me a standard blood panel and when everything came back ok, they shrugged. Then I discovered on my own that my Test and HGH levels were low, and that this could explain my symptoms. I am hoping that restoring these hormones to optimal values will improve my QOL in various ways. It is also healthier to be close to optimal values, as being low in these hormones can lead to many effects such as osteoporosis, early death, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by imom View Post
    If the lab range represents 95% of results (I don't know which percentile they are using) then I'd be in the bottom 1%. I wouldn't call that 'slightly lower' than normal.

    I have seen a few doctors over the years regarding poor sleep, low energy, impaired mental ability, and just low QOL. They just gave me a standard blood panel and when everything came back ok, they shrugged. Then I discovered on my own that my Test and HGH levels were low, and that this could explain my symptoms. I am hoping that restoring these hormones to optimal values will improve my QOL in various ways. It is also healthier to be close to optimal values, as being low in these hormones can lead to many effects such as osteoporosis, early death, etc.
    If you test is low then that will be the cause of your issues, get your self on trt asap

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    Quote Originally Posted by marcus300 View Post
    If you test is low then that will be the cause of your issues, get your self on trt asap
    Thanks, I started that a few weeks ago too.

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    FYI I was just going to start at 2iu to minimize side effects and then slowly ramp up to 4iu

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    Quote Originally Posted by snowblowjoe View Post
    FYI I was just going to start at 2iu to minimize side effects and then slowly ramp up to 4iu
    Like most on here I really don't think aas or hgh are for you at your stage but best of luck anyway.

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    That's why I'm starting at such a low dosage bro. To mitigate the joint pain. I'm not doing it anytime soon. I feel good again tho no joint pain.

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    Marcus!

    Pinning 4iu growth , I always go back and forth as to pin in the AM and PM.. Am would blunt cortisol but at night I feel this is when we repair grow etc..

    Also that being said would 2iu in am then 2 pm work or would you just pop all 4 at once.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slimshady01 View Post
    Marcus!

    Pinning 4iu growth , I always go back and forth as to pin in the AM and PM.. Am would blunt cortisol but at night I feel this is when we repair grow etc..

    Also that being said would 2iu in am then 2 pm work or would you just pop all 4 at once.
    Something for you to think about,
    There are many ways to administrate gh and ive tried and tested many of them. The suppression comes from elevated IGF levels which last hours so if you are using gh for long periods of time your natural gh pulse is going to be blunted anyway. You also got to understand that there is a reason why the largest natural gh pulse is at night and how large is this pulse if the average man is producing lets says 1.5ius daily. So if your taking exogenous hgh at reasonable dose your natural gh is going to be suppressed and even if it wasn't suppressed its not worth saving anyway because you don't produce enough even if your night time pulse was half of your daily hgh output. So if all the growth factors and benefits happen during REM when our largest pulse is activated then why not follow your natural body's rhythm and inject the largest amount at night to get the most benefits out of your exogenous hgh.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marcus300

    Something for you to think about,
    There are many ways to administrate gh and ive tried and tested many of them. The suppression comes from elevated IGF levels which last hours so if you are using gh for long periods of time your natural gh pulse is going to be blunted anyway. You also got to understand that there is a reason why the largest natural gh pulse is at night and how large is this pulse if the average man is producing lets says 1.5ius daily. So if your taking exogenous hgh at reasonable dose your natural gh is going to be suppressed and even if it wasn't suppressed its not worth saving anyway because you don't produce enough even if your night time pulse was half of your daily hgh output. So if all the growth factors and benefits happen during REM when our largest pulse is activated then why not follow your natural body's rhythm and inject the largest amount at night to get the most benefits out of your exogenous hgh.
    That's exactly what kept me thinking to pin all 4iu at night..

    For some reason I always liked pinning before bed and as of now I will take my 4iu at night..

    Thanks Marcus .

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    Quote Originally Posted by slimshady01 View Post
    That's exactly what kept me thinking to pin all 4iu at night..

    For some reason I always liked pinning before bed and as of now I will take my 4iu at night..

    Thanks Marcus .
    I'd still split the dose into 2 ius but pin one at night, better still would be if you was on more ius then pin the largest amount at night...

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    Quote Originally Posted by marcus300

    I'd still split the dose into 2 ius but pin one at night, better still would be if you was on more ius then pin the largest amount at night...
    Thanks again

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    I wear a sleep monitor that calculates light vs deep sleep. I've noticed that when I pin at night my sleep is much deeper. Just for that i pin an hour before bed.

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    What's the difference between light and deep sleep? Is deep just rem sleep and light does not have any rem activity?

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    Quote Originally Posted by human project View Post

    Why is every other day better?? So is splitting dsily doses bad also. Would it be best to just take a very large dose three times a week.??? I currently take 2ius 2 times a day 6 on 1 off... I also take a couple 2-5 iu's after really hard workouts where I use insulin.
    Sound like marcus answered all your questions, which is great bc I didn't know a lot of the answers. Thanks marcus!

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    Interesting study I found on my computer what you guys may enjoy reading, also confirms some of the things ive been expressing over the last few posts. Study also shows positive results running high dose EOD protocol's


    Body composition response to exogenous GH during training in highly conditioned adults, D. M. Crist, J Appl Physiol 65: 579-584, 1988

    Intro:
    The effects of biosynthetic methionyl-human growth hormone (met-hGH) on body composition and endogenous secretion of growth hormone (GH) and insulin -like growth factor I (IGF-I) were studied in eight well-trained exercising adults between 22 and 33 yr of age for 6 weeks.


    Dosing & Administration:
    The met-hGH (experimental) treatment consisted of 8.0 mg (2 U/mg) per week of methGH (Protropin; Genentech, San Francisco, CA), which was divided into three doses (2.67 mg/dose) and delivered on alternate days (3 days/wk) in 0.5 ml of bacteriostatic diluent. Because of differences in the body weights of the subjects, the relative dose range varied between 0.03 and 0.05 mg/kg per injection. Injections were given between 0800 and 1500, and their delivery was rotated among four to six sites throughout the study period. Treatments were administered on a double-blind basis with neither the experimental subject nor the person administering the injections knowing which treatment was being delivered. The total weekly dose of met-hGH used in this study (8.0 mg) was considered supraphysiological, since the spontaneous release of human GH during a 24-h period is purportedly -0.68 mg (4.8 mg/wk) in men and 0.79 mg (5.5 mg/wk) in women (30), similar to amounts reported by others (6).


    CONCLUSION
    In the present study, we found that alternate-day treatment with met-hGH altered body composition in highly conditioned, exercising adults by increasing FFW (fat free weight), decreasing %fat, and increasing FFW (fat free weight)/FW (fat weight). These changes were significantly greater than those produced by exercise alone.
    ...
    Moreover we found that supraphysiological amounts of met-hGH were sufficient to significantly elevate circulating concentrations of IGF-I in all our subjects, confirming that the changes in body composition were indeed due to real alterations produced in vivo by the hormone treatment.


    Supression of endogenous GH
    It has been reported previously that exogenous GH will suppress endogenous release of the hormone (19,23) and that this effect may be mediated in part by elevated levels of IGF-I (23). On a preliminary basis, we found that treatment for 6 wk with supraphysiological doses of met-hGH produced an impaired endogenous GH response to stimulation in some, but not all, of our subjects. This variable response may be related to the amount of hormone used in the study. Although a significant group elevation in IGF-I levels occurred during the met-hGH treatment, this response was still below the upper limit of normal (2.20 U/ml) for the study group. Thus it is plausible that the treatment dose of met-hGH used and the subsequent moderate increase in IGF-I levels led to feedback suppression of endogenous GH release in five of the seven subjects measured for this effect, whereas these physiological events were insufficient to produce this effect in two of the subjects.


    Intense exercise increases sensitivity to GH??
    ...One possible explanation for the disparity between our findings and those of others (25, 26) is that the stress of long-term, intensive exercise training could induce alterations in vivo, which might potentiate tissue sensitivity to the physiological actions of GH (2). In any case, it is clear from our findings that supraphysiological doses of met-hGH increased circulating concentrations of IGF-I and increased FFW (fat free weight) and decreased FW (fat weight) in highly conditioned, exercising adults.


    Soft-tissue Overgrowth?
    There are two principal adverse reactions associated with excessive amounts of human GH, carbohydrate intolerance, and soft-tissue overgrowth. In the present study, we measured fasting blood glucose levels periodically throughout each treatment and found no real changes suggestive of a hyperglycemic response to methGH. Because soft-tissue overgrowth is associated with abnormally high levels of IGF-I, the normal responses observed suggest that the chance for soft-tissue overgrowth occurring in our subjects was minimal. However, it is unreasonable to conclude that use of met-hGH is safe as an adjunct to exercise in healthy adults until more subjects are studied over longer periods of time and with more stringent tests for detecting changes in glucose tolerance and soft-tissue overgrowth.


    Diet used
    To avoid compromising the dietary requirements for optimal tissue anabolism during the met-hGH treatment, our subjects ingested between 2.05 and 2.10 g/kg a day of protein and a minimum number of kilocalories to maintain body weight. The kilocaloric requirement removed the potential bias from a dietary-induced FW loss.


    In Conclusion
    We conclude that treatment with supraphysiological doses of met-hGH will significantly alter body composition in adults who are highly conditioned from years of exercise training. The magnitude of this effect, however, is dependent in part on the amount of hormone given per body weight of the individual rather than endogenous GH secretory status. Changes in body composition are directly related to met-hGH administration, but the manifestations of treatment may be mediated in part by increased production of IGF-I or other GH-dependent serum anabolic factors. Moreover, supraphysiological treatment with met-hGH in exercising adults may produce impairments in the stimulated release of endogenous GH in some individuals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marcus300
    Interesting study I found on my computer what you guys may enjoy reading, also confirms some of the things ive been expressing over the last few posts. Study also shows positive results running high dose EOD protocol's

    Body composition response to exogenous GH during training in highly conditioned adults, D. M. Crist, J Appl Physiol 65: 579-584, 1988

    Intro:
    The effects of biosynthetic methionyl-human growth hormone (met-hGH) on body composition and endogenous secretion of growth hormone (GH) and insulin -like growth factor I (IGF-I) were studied in eight well-trained exercising adults between 22 and 33 yr of age for 6 weeks.

    Dosing & Administration:
    The met-hGH (experimental) treatment consisted of 8.0 mg (2 U/mg) per week of methGH (Protropin; Genentech, San Francisco, CA), which was divided into three doses (2.67 mg/dose) and delivered on alternate days (3 days/wk) in 0.5 ml of bacteriostatic diluent. Because of differences in the body weights of the subjects, the relative dose range varied between 0.03 and 0.05 mg/kg per injection. Injections were given between 0800 and 1500, and their delivery was rotated among four to six sites throughout the study period. Treatments were administered on a double-blind basis with neither the experimental subject nor the person administering the injections knowing which treatment was being delivered. The total weekly dose of met-hGH used in this study (8.0 mg) was considered supraphysiological, since the spontaneous release of human GH during a 24-h period is purportedly -0.68 mg (4.8 mg/wk) in men and 0.79 mg (5.5 mg/wk) in women (30), similar to amounts reported by others (6).

    CONCLUSION
    In the present study, we found that alternate-day treatment with met-hGH altered body composition in highly conditioned, exercising adults by increasing FFW (fat free weight), decreasing %fat, and increasing FFW (fat free weight)/FW (fat weight). These changes were significantly greater than those produced by exercise alone.
    ...
    Moreover we found that supraphysiological amounts of met-hGH were sufficient to significantly elevate circulating concentrations of IGF-I in all our subjects, confirming that the changes in body composition were indeed due to real alterations produced in vivo by the hormone treatment.

    Supression of endogenous GH
    It has been reported previously that exogenous GH will suppress endogenous release of the hormone (19,23) and that this effect may be mediated in part by elevated levels of IGF-I (23). On a preliminary basis, we found that treatment for 6 wk with supraphysiological doses of met-hGH produced an impaired endogenous GH response to stimulation in some, but not all, of our subjects. This variable response may be related to the amount of hormone used in the study. Although a significant group elevation in IGF-I levels occurred during the met-hGH treatment, this response was still below the upper limit of normal (2.20 U/ml) for the study group. Thus it is plausible that the treatment dose of met-hGH used and the subsequent moderate increase in IGF-I levels led to feedback suppression of endogenous GH release in five of the seven subjects measured for this effect, whereas these physiological events were insufficient to produce this effect in two of the subjects.

    Intense exercise increases sensitivity to GH??
    ...One possible explanation for the disparity between our findings and those of others (25, 26) is that the stress of long-term, intensive exercise training could induce alterations in vivo, which might potentiate tissue sensitivity to the physiological actions of GH (2). In any case, it is clear from our findings that supraphysiological doses of met-hGH increased circulating concentrations of IGF-I and increased FFW (fat free weight) and decreased FW (fat weight) in highly conditioned, exercising adults.

    Soft-tissue Overgrowth?
    There are two principal adverse reactions associated with excessive amounts of human GH, carbohydrate intolerance, and soft-tissue overgrowth. In the present study, we measured fasting blood glucose levels periodically throughout each treatment and found no real changes suggestive of a hyperglycemic response to methGH. Because soft-tissue overgrowth is associated with abnormally high levels of IGF-I, the normal responses observed suggest that the chance for soft-tissue overgrowth occurring in our subjects was minimal. However, it is unreasonable to conclude that use of met-hGH is safe as an adjunct to exercise in healthy adults until more subjects are studied over longer periods of time and with more stringent tests for detecting changes in glucose tolerance and soft-tissue overgrowth.

    Diet used
    To avoid compromising the dietary requirements for optimal tissue anabolism during the met-hGH treatment, our subjects ingested between 2.05 and 2.10 g/kg a day of protein and a minimum number of kilocalories to maintain body weight. The kilocaloric requirement removed the potential bias from a dietary-induced FW loss.

    In Conclusion
    We conclude that treatment with supraphysiological doses of met-hGH will significantly alter body composition in adults who are highly conditioned from years of exercise training. The magnitude of this effect, however, is dependent in part on the amount of hormone given per body weight of the individual rather than endogenous GH secretory status. Changes in body composition are directly related to met-hGH administration, but the manifestations of treatment may be mediated in part by increased production of IGF-I or other GH-dependent serum anabolic factors. Moreover, supraphysiological treatment with met-hGH in exercising adults may produce impairments in the stimulated release of endogenous GH in some individuals.
    So how man actual iu's were administered per injection?? I know its 2.7ius per mg but I'm confused with how I would use this method.... I'm 250lbs

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    Quote Originally Posted by human project View Post
    So how man actual iu's were administered per injection?? I know its 2.7ius per mg but I'm confused with how I would use this method.... I'm 250lbs
    It's equivalent to 3 IU per day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marcus300 View Post
    Interesting study I found on my computer ...
    Thanks for posting that. It's a pity that it wasn't more specific about the endogenous HGH suppression. "An impaired endogenous GH response" could mean 5% or 95%.

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    Great read. N1 yet again

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    great read . thanks

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    Thanks for the post marcus. Do you feel EOD protocol is good for QOL anti ageing, or more for BB?

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    If eod is so effective then why don't they prescribe that protocol when you go to an anti aging clinic?

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    Quote Originally Posted by snowblowjoe View Post
    If eod is so effective then why don't they prescribe that protocol when you go to an anti aging clinic?
    Because anti aging is a lifestyle based on long term hgh supplementation with an emphasis on healthy living, not tissue growth. Obviously patients are also looking for aesthetic improvements but no AA clinic will script a patient for almost 8ius eod. Off label hgh use for AA is a gray area to begin with since that's not what it's approved for.

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    A lot of common practices of modern medicine are not necessarily the most superior approach, particularly in this area of medicine. Not to say they aren't good, just sometimes fall a little short. You'll find that subspecialties that are heavily studied and investigated, such as critical care, cardiology, infectious disease, and so forth demonstrate a much higher rate of "best practices".

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    That all makes sense. I'm also not naive enough to think Dr's are always right. Hgh just seems like one of those compounds were theories constantly change. As soon as you think you have all the data then another study comes out proving your previous theory all wrong. Makes sense tho, any newer compound goes through this process. I'd bet it doesn't really matter too much when you take it but that's just a gut instinct.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Kane View Post
    Because anti aging is a lifestyle based on long term hgh supplementation with an emphasis on healthy living, not tissue growth. Obviously patients are also looking for aesthetic improvements but no AA clinic will script a patient for almost 8ius eod. Off label hgh use for AA is a gray area to begin with since that's not what it's approved for.
    The FDA had actually gone as far as prohibiting the prescribing of hgh for anti-aging or related purposes. Violating these restrictions is punishable by harsh actions (such as loss of licensing) and/or fines.

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    Why does the fda suck so bad. They have no problem licensing drugs they know will probably cause a lawsuit within a decade due to fukd up side effects

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    wow tons of great info in here, looks like i have some reading to do.

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    If you look at the prescribing inserts of at least some hgh preparations, it states 2.7iu = 1mg

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    Well this stuff certainly works. My IGF-1 quadrupled after 3 weeks of 2IU/day! I will try 1IU/day for a while.

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    Quote Originally Posted by imom
    Well this stuff certainly works. My IGF-1 quadrupled after 3 weeks of 2IU/day! I will try 1IU/day for a while.
    When did u get bloods done and what were before and after lvls exact ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by slimshady01 View Post
    When did u get bloods done and what were before and after lvls exact ?
    Both tests were done late morning with no food or drink since previous day.
    Second test was done before my daily injections, so 24 hours since previous shot.

    My IGF-1 was at 141 ng/ml (lab range: 160-318)

    My IGF-1 is now at 692 after taking just 2IU per day for 3 weeks. This is more than I want so I will scale down and retest in a few weeks. I also started Test replacement therapy (75mg Test Prop/week) at the same time so there might have been some synergy going on there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by imom

    Both tests were done late morning with no food or drink since previous day.
    Second test was done before my daily injections, so 24 hours since previous shot.

    My IGF-1 was at 141 ng/ml (lab range: 160-318)

    My IGF-1 is now at 692 after taking just 2IU per day for 3 weeks. This is more than I want so I will scale down and retest in a few weeks. I also started Test replacement therapy (75mg Test Prop/week) at the same time so there might have been some synergy going on there.
    Wow that's amazing,those igf levels are what 6iu would normally give you!

    Also if your on TRT why are they giving you test prop? Prop is in and out in 3-4 days were cyp and enth are the traditional TRT esters used.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slimshady01 View Post
    Also if your on TRT why are they giving you test prop?
    It's all I can find here. I don't mind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slimshady01 View Post
    Wow that's amazing,those igf levels are what 6iu would normally give you!

    Also if your on TRT why are they giving you test prop? Prop is in and out in 3-4 days were cyp and enth are the traditional TRT esters used.
    How do you even dose test P at 75 mg per week? That is a perfect example for the wrong tool for the job. Nebio (I think that's the name) you inject once a month.

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    I'm a little confused. I remember reading back somewhere in this thread (or the Chinese thread?) that some substances (peptides or peptides plus something - something in those vials masquerading as HGH) increased IGF1 too much for whatever reason, and that real HGH increases by some amount, but that there was an inflated rise in IGF1. So that if you had real HGH you expected a certain rise, but if it was fake there could be this enormous rise.

    I've searched and can't find it, and I'd rather not have to read both theads in their entirety again! Can somebody reiterate this for me?

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    Quote Originally Posted by thisAngelBites
    I'm a little confused. I remember reading back somewhere in this thread (or the Chinese thread?) that some substances (peptides or peptides plus something - something in those vials masquerading as HGH) increased IGF1 too much for whatever reason, and that real HGH increases by some amount, but that there was an inflated rise in IGF1. So that if you had real HGH you expected a certain rise, but if it was fake there could be this enormous rise.

    I've searched and can't find it, and I'd rather not have to read both theads in their entirety again! Can somebody reiterate this for me?
    That was for growth serum test, generics were pulling a score of say 60 on 10iu pinned IM when pharma grade would be in the 20s.. That threw up red flags.

    But normally and correct me if I'm wrong per 1iu gh that would normally raise IGF by 100. So if you were on 6iu you could expect a level of 600.. I'm sure it varies by individuals and other factors but it was a mere guideline.

    Ill let Marcus chime in, but bottom line if your running licensed GH like that of the Jins I would trust my blood work 100%.

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