Growth principles for beginners

[Big A]

Big A. Regarding tren e, do you think it's better to do 40 weeks at 200mg/wk or 20 at 400 or 10 weeks at 800mg/week. 500mg of test e would be there for any option. After reading your post I'm rethinking my next cycle.

I'd personally do 20 at 400. But that's me.

[Big A]

The 500g a day of protein... would this apply to anyone? Like what about the 135lb ecto's? Or what about the 375 lb meso?

It's an average guide. The aim is to eat as much protein as possible.
A 135lb person would never be able to eat 500g of protein. They'll probably pass out from attempting it
A 375lb person would scolf that down in a few meals, but at that weight, they wouldn't be a beginner/intermediate either.

[THEjuiceISloose73]

my question is i wouldnt feel like i worked my chest out or w/e muscle doing like 3 machines then switching to the next even if im going 100% i prefer 5 exercises leading each one up to 100% in the end
right now im on 4 day rotation with 1 off i feel like if im not at the gym a lot im not growing???

[Big A]

my question is i wouldnt feel like i worked my chest out or w/e muscle doing like 3 machines then switching to the next even if im going 100% i prefer 5 exercises leading each one up to 100% in the end
right now im on 4 day rotation with 1 off i feel like if im not at the gym a lot im not growing???

Firs tof all, when do you grow? In the gym? Of course not, you grow when you recover. The gym merely stimulates growth. Gym time is not indicative of muscle growth.

And if you would be truly training at 100% effort, there is NO WAY IN THE WORLD that you could train at the volume that you are saying!

[majorpecs]

Nice post.

[ianchov]

pretty good and shaped reading..
but isn`t it comes more to the principles of training to failure than pumping more?

[J_Bishop]

This Big A dazzled the spectators with his infinite wisdom

[ianchov]

Big A, can you specify how much is the recommended break during sets in this mod of training(100%)

thanks

[Big A]

Big A, can you specify how much is the recommended break during sets in this mod of training(100%)

thanks

Until you are ready to give 100% for the next set. Obviously, the break between leg sets will be much greater than between biceps sets for example.

[Two4the$$]

Right off the bat (and I'm not looking to make enemies) but I question your accuracy - You mention the importance of giving the CNS time to recover ... but you also say to train to 100% failure each time. Interesting how selective you are at addressing one potential cause for over-training, but completely ignore another. I'm going to do more research before I engage in this thread, but for starters I just see a bit of the "old school" axioms... and can't completely sign up for this programs effectiveness.

I know it's going to be tempting for you to thrash my opinion based on my small physique ... but you'd need to know my goals before jumping to that assumption.

Just opening some discourse, and throwing it out there that this isn't the gospel.

[TripleH]

bump

[Big A]

Right off the bat (and I'm not looking to make enemies) but I question your accuracy - You mention the importance of giving the CNS time to recover ... but you also say to train to 100% failure each time. Interesting how selective you are at addressing one potential cause for over-training, but completely ignore another. I'm going to do more research before I engage in this thread, but for starters I just see a bit of the "old school" axioms... and can't completely sign up for this programs effectiveness.

I know it's going to be tempting for you to thrash my opinion based on my small physique ... but you'd need to know my goals before jumping to that assumption.

Just opening some discourse, and throwing it out there that this isn't the gospel.

Overtaining is when too much stimulus is induced and not enough recovery takes place.

I say to train at 100% effort, but also to fully recover in between workouts. There is no selective ignoration there.

[stupidhippo]

I switched to a 3 day a week routine and I think Im seeing better results than my previous 5 times a week, and Im shedding too. Last time when I was shedding I lost a lot more than now seem to be - AND Im in PCT still! I recommend this routine to be tested to ppl who are at a relatively high stage and seem to have plateaud.

[RA]

Good post. Thanks Big A.

[Caz84]

Just wondering... How much protein would you suggest eating per serving?

[Caz84]

... And that question is to Big A. Its just that i understand there are limits to how much protein can be absorbed at any one time.

[zircon]

3 per week def works for em. Even 2, if I feel a bit down, is perfect. As long as my workouts are hard and committed i do well with 2/3 per week.

[ouchthathurts]

Can I ask a question? Is someone...anyone...actually contending that a given workout is THE correct workout? Let me tell you what I have learned from 7 years of training natural. Every workout regimen is different for everone. And when I say different, I mean WAY different. Like a 1-day-per-week circuit train with 6 days of rest, all the way up to 5 days a week for AAS users. It's a sweet-spot between training to maximize gains vs. overtaining and walking the fine line in between.

Not to say that you should not shake the barrel every now and then when your body conditions itself to the stimulus.

For me, this has what's worked best. And don't post anything saying you disagree, because what you are really saying is that you just disagree for YOU. That being said, I give you a snapshot workout of mine:

any given monday: squats... some mild stretching, a light set or two to get the blood flow going and then on to my workout. I did a set of 12 (or was it 15) at 315, waited maybe 10 minutes, then a set of 12 at 405, (another 5-10 minutes) then a set at 455 for 10 which I didn't get and almost blew lunch. Now here's the hard part of the workout: I then grabbed my towel, through it over my shoulder, and my 2 liter water bottle and enjoyed a PWO shake in the dry sauna. Total workout time 45 minutes. I was off to the sauna while some guys were working their lateral mediali on the leg press machine. Down in the sauna, I could barely stand on my tip toes, and had trouble navigating the steps down to the locker room. Did I not recruit enough muscle fibers in my legs to stimulate growth? Did I get enough blood flow with that rediculous pump to increase oxygen delivery to those muscles (increased vascularity)? Were my pathways forced to increase stimulation due to the increase in recruitment? I sure as hell did and not to mention that the weight on my bone structure would prompt them to increase in density which is why I also take a calcium supp. It's way overlooked IMO.

Was there anything left for me to do except rest for 2-3 days? Hell no. I have similiar days in the gym with deadlifts, and i split up my upper by doing bent-over rows and bench presses, cleans, clean and press. I occasionally mix up my barbells and dumbbells and mix up low reps vs. high or even less occasionally, I will alter a movement just enough to hit the ENTIRE muscle from a slightly different angle.

Mass muscle movements, heavy as possible, 1 time a week per movement. This will not work for everyone as my goal is only one... strength. Whether I reach my 250Kg (525lb) squat goal at my current weight of 215 or at 195lbs, i don't really give a sh*t. The point is that I remember doing squats many years ago with 115lbs and I thought that was heavy.

In the last 3 years, even my bones have thickened. I can't put my old wedding ring on my pinky finger. My joints and tendons have also gradually thickened.

My theory is simple. You have to do this for a while before you know yourself and you know how what you do in the gym does to you. You put the time in, you learn your body. You use (at least in the beginning) the major movements, squats, deadlifts, bench, etc. This is like the concrete on which you build a house. With a strong base, you can shoose to build a castle of rock, or even one of those gay-ass french stucco type houses in LA. Whatever your bag is... and I don't even want to know.

p.s. I almost completely disagree with the whole "gear" portion of your program. I could never safely, and health-consciously use this cycle. NOT FOR ME.... uh uh
and unless I want to cary around a roll of toilet paper and sh*t every 2 hours, I'm not eating 500g of protein a day.

and you said beginner to intermediate... all this could make some beginners, pretty ill.

Not stepping on toes or anything like that. I love to hear what other guys are doing. Not only do I occasionally get a "I might try that for a few months" out of it but I aslo love to see how different we all really are.

[Big A]

Can I ask a question? Is someone...anyone...actually contending that a given workout is THE correct workout?

It is as close to correct as you can get as it is logical, follows science/physiology as much as possible and it has been proven it's efficiency basically every single time that it has been used properly.

Let me tell you what I have learned from 7 years of training natural.

I've learned from 16 years of training.

Every workout regimen is different for everone. And when I say different, I mean WAY different.

If that would be the case, then medecine wouldn't exist, as every single person would require a totally different tretament for the same illness. Humans, generally, are the same. So generally, there's guidelines about what works. This workout style is empirically the guideline.

Like a 1-day-per-week circuit train with 6 days of rest, all the way up to 5 days a week for AAS users.

5 days for AAS users? So are yo of the belief than an AAS user should increase training frequency? That is the biggest falacy in bodybuilding. A trainer uses AAS, sure their recovery increases, but their strength greatly increases too (at a higher rate than recovery ability), as such they do more damage to their muscles when they train, so in fact, a AA user should have more recovery than a natural, as such reuiring even more infrequent training.

And don't post anything saying you disagree, because what you are really saying is that you just disagree for YOU.

And the countless people that I first hand trained. I have YET to meet a single person that doesn't follow this program to the letter and doesn't look like a full bodybuilder in a very short time, regardless if they call themselevs a hard gainer or not. As a matter of fact, I don't beleive hard gainer exists. It's all people not knowing how to do things properly.

That being said, I give you a snapshot workout of mine:
any given monday: squats... some mild stretching, a light set or two to get the blood flow going and then on to my workout. I did a set of 12 (or was it 15) at 315, waited maybe 10 minutes, then a set of 12 at 405, (another 5-10 minutes) then a set at 455 for 10 which I didn't get and almost blew lunch. Now here's the hard part of the workout: I then grabbed my towel, through it over my shoulder, and my 2 liter water bottle and enjoyed a PWO shake in the dry sauna. Total workout time 45 minutes. I was off to the sauna while some guys were working their lateral mediali on the leg press machine. Down in the sauna, I could barely stand on my tip toes, and had trouble navigating the steps down to the locker room. Did I not recruit enough muscle fibers in my legs to stimulate growth? Did I get enough blood flow with that rediculous pump to increase oxygen delivery to those muscles (increased vascularity)? Were my pathways forced to increase stimulation due to the increase in recruitment? I sure as hell did and not to mention that the weight on my bone structure would prompt them to increase in density which is why I also take a calcium supp. It's way overlooked IMO.

Was there anything left for me to do except rest for 2-3 days? Hell no. I have similiar days in the gym with deadlifts, and i split up my upper by doing bent-over rows and bench presses, cleans, clean and press. I occasionally mix up my barbells and dumbbells and mix up low reps vs. high or even less occasionally, I will alter a movement just enough to hit the ENTIRE muscle from a slightly different angle.

What you just said is what I say to, so I don't see your argument against?
BTW, if you would have had your first two sets a bit lighter, since they are only warm up sets, you could have done a much higher weight for your final work set. And be careful not to confuse exhaustion with muscle stimulation.

Mass muscle movements, heavy as possible, 1 time a week per movement. This will not work for everyone as my goal is only one... strength.

This is a program for size, not strength. Bodybuilding, not powerlifting.

My theory is simple. You have to do this for a while before you know yourself and you know how what you do in the gym does to you. You put the time in, you learn your body. You use (at least in the beginning) the major movements, squats, deadlifts, bench, etc. This is like the concrete on which you build a house. With a strong base, you can shoose to build a castle of rock, or even one of those gay-ass french stucco type houses in LA. Whatever your bag is... and I don't even want to know.

Again, I don't see you arguing against me, you are just saying what I am saying.

p.s. I almost completely disagree with the whole "gear" portion of your program. I could never safely, and health-consciously use this cycle. NOT FOR ME.... uh uh

Why not? You are fully monitored with blood tests, all the ancilliaries are used to keep you healthy, what is the problem?

and unless I want to cary around a roll of toilet paper and sh*t every 2 hours, I'm not eating 500g of protein a day.

Haven't you heard that diet is 90% of bodybuilding? And yes, if you do want to be big, you certainly will become a shit factory as all the food you ingest, will keep you on the toilet all day. It is part of being a bodybuilder.

and you said beginner to intermediate... all this could make some beginners, pretty ill.

And why is that? I have yet to see one get ill. That is a compeletely illogical statement.

BTW, my program is for EVERYONE, including the so called experienced guys that have been training for many years, but in reality they still have no idea what they are doing. It is called for beginners, not to hurt their fragile egos, but it is as efficient for beginners and for 'experienced' trainers.

[ouchthathurts]

Don't get me wrong Big A... I think the program you outlined could result is huge size and strength gains for MOST ppl. I disagree with you only that is difinitive. Some of the less-is-more philosophy I'm totally with you. I'm not a BB'er and I've not walked in those circles. I would be foolish to argue with someone along those lines because I simply don't know them. You said:

"If that would be the case, then medecine wouldn't exist, as every single person would require a totally different tretament for the same illness."

Many people in fact, DO require different treatments for the same illness. For instance, if I prescribe zoloft and someone reacts badly to it, I might try wellbutrin, if wellbutrin fails than I might go with effexor. Some people recover within a 6-month period. Some take 2 years. Some use a maintenance dose for life. There's no definite cure for any ailment. Have you seen the host of meds available for diabetes? anxiety? heart disease? arthritus? boo boos on the knee? Now you're in MY circle.

I would never RECOMMEND 5 days of training a week for anybody but some people (anecdotally) get satisfactory gains from this (I don't see how). 95% of BBing is anecdotal. We have no imperical evidence besides what we feel we have observed and what we have read, etc. If there was scientifically documented evidence to show that training this way or that way works the best, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. You would have just said "Read the book xxxxxxx. It has everything you need."

I didn't post what I did to argue your points but rather only to point out that there is another side of the coin.

I eat 8 meals a day. I know my own physiology well enough to know that more than 40grams of protein per sitting results in my getting the **its. I'm going to lose water and electrolyte and I'm certainly not going to make maximum gains with chronic diarrhea... Cmon! (although I do average 250-350gm's a day) but I'm 220 and only 5' 9".

Last few things. It's good to have as many knowlegable ppl on the board as possible. Sometimes I think ppl play little posting games, backing each other up with multiple identities. Others are just young kids which have no place here. Others are real-deal men and women who want to better themselves through training and sometimes...AAS.

You got some good credentials down there and your dedication to the sport or practice of strength training is evident. Very cool.

All I can say is "Nice to meet you."

Peace,

Ryan, PhD
Psychology

[Big A]

Don't get me wrong Big A... I think the program you outlined could result is huge size and strength gains for MOST ppl. I disagree with you only that is difinitive. Some of the less-is-more philosophy I'm totally with you. I'm not a BB'er and I've not walked in those circles. I would be foolish to argue with someone along those lines because I simply don't know them. You said:

"If that would be the case, then medecine wouldn't exist, as every single person would require a totally different tretament for the same illness."

Many people in fact, DO require different treatments for the same illness. For instance, if I prescribe zoloft and someone reacts badly to it, I might try wellbutrin, if wellbutrin fails than I might go with effexor. Some people recover within a 6-month period. Some take 2 years. Some use a maintenance dose for life. There's no definite cure for any ailment. Have you seen the host of meds available for diabetes? anxiety? heart disease? arthritus? boo boos on the knee? Now you're in MY circle.

I would never RECOMMEND 5 days of training a week for anybody but some people (anecdotally) get satisfactory gains from this (I don't see how). 95% of BBing is anecdotal. We have no imperical evidence besides what we feel we have observed and what we have read, etc. If there was scientifically documented evidence to show that training this way or that way works the best, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. You would have just said "Read the book xxxxxxx. It has everything you need."

I didn't post what I did to argue your points but rather only to point out that there is another side of the coin.

I eat 8 meals a day. I know my own physiology well enough to know that more than 40grams of protein per sitting results in my getting the **its. I'm going to lose water and electrolyte and I'm certainly not going to make maximum gains with chronic diarrhea... Cmon! (although I do average 250-350gm's a day) but I'm 220 and only 5' 9".

Last few things. It's good to have as many knowlegable ppl on the board as possible. Sometimes I think ppl play little posting games, backing each other up with multiple identities. Others are just young kids which have no place here. Others are real-deal men and women who want to better themselves through training and sometimes...AAS.

You got some good credentials down there and your dedication to the sport or practice of strength training is evident. Very cool.

All I can say is "Nice to meet you."

Peace,

Ryan, PhD
Psychology

Of course everyone is different in slight ways, but the basics of medecine are still there. There are still basic principles that need to be followed, and of course sometimes adjusted to personal needs.
This program is the closest style that can be viewed as the basics, with some people needing slight modifications. But it is the backbone of the closest thing that can be called proper training.

You should check out my site professionalmuscle.com You might find interesting the Counselling Forum

[ouchthathurts]

I'll check it out bro... Thanks

BTW I squated 515 today. Almost didn't get out of the pocket but I got that ****!

That's 10lbs below my best ever. i'm pretty stoked. I could chew nails right now.

[Knight1811]

BIG A,

Big round of applause!!!
First, great post. The content of the post was exceptional.
Second, great rebuttals to the follow-up questions asked. Outstanding responses.
Third, I don't recall any of your responses using insults or nasty attacks at anyone who challenged your views. I thought that was very admirable.
I'm not here to stroke your ego or anything and I certainly don't know you from Adam but your posts and responses are a class act. Great job bro.

Knight1811

[NotSmall]

Great post, nuff said.

[*Narkissos*]

It was an interesting read.

Glad to see you over here Big A.

[Pinnacle]

Big A-

Isn't "Ouchthathurts" a MOD on your board?If so,it seems odd to me that he is posting his thoughts on this board as opposed to yours.

BTW..I love your board!Alot of very interesting info found using the search feature.Opened my eyes to several things.

~Pinnacle~

[Big A]

Big A-

Isn't "Ouchthathurts" a MOD on your board?If so,it seems odd to me that he is posting his thoughts on this board as opposed to yours.

BTW..I love your board!Alot of very interesting info found using the search feature.Opened my eyes to several things.

~Pinnacle~

Actually, because of his post here we communicated constantly since then, regarding a lot of issues, and it just happened that he would fit perfectly the job as a mod on the Counselling forum, since he has a phd in psychology.
After further discussions, he started helping the guys over there on the Counselling forum, and of course, he would have to be a mod on that forum in case any of them break any board rules, etc.
He just started there 1 or 2 days ago.

And yes, you'll find a lot of hidden 'treasures' there, since it is the playground of the pros and anyone that is anyone in this industry.

[ouchthathurts]

Big A-

Isn't "Ouchthathurts" a MOD on your board?If so,it seems odd to me that he is posting his thoughts on this board as opposed to yours.

BTW..I love your board!Alot of very interesting info found using the search feature.Opened my eyes to several things.

~Pinnacle~

Strange isn't it? Actually, not really. As you can see by the thread, we both seemed to come to the conclusion that our opinions, which seemed different, weren't really all that much apart. Communication is often necessary when people convey differently. We both train fewer sets, higher weight, less time in gym, and spend more time recovering. Many people slack off in their training (or quit entirely) because they overtrain, become tired, irritated, possibly depressed. Is Big A going to agree with everything I have to say about training or how to shrink heads? No. Am I going to agree with him on everything. Doubtful. That's what make the forum powerful: freeflow of ideas.

Yes, I am a mod on that board only because people can post dangerous solutions to problems that will most likely result in just even more problems. None of us wants to see that happen.

Wait a second here! I'm a mod on that board because I'm a very good person to know, totally cool, and I have wicked strength! Being a doc is just an ancillary.

I'm more than just grey matter.

[Gassy]

I really like the article BigA. Did your video ever get made? if so where can I get it?

If I did the same sets and reps you say but I split it up more and did it over 5 days, what would be the difference on th CNS?

Also do you ever change to a higher volume routine or even training each bodypart 2x's a week?

Lastly, I read a while ago that you take off a week every month, is that true?
thanks