length of cycle debate..........

[iron4life79]

well,
i think it makes sense to a point, and i would like to have someone experienced chime in on what you posted above, as this is all new to me as well.
i might be off MY rocker, but lets kick this around some..........

my main sticking point with the theory posted above would be the lowest low end dosage. whats the point behind going as low as 100mg ?
hpta is already supressed, and regardless of hcg, its gonnna stay supressed, correct? i would think it would be better to start higher, and taper down........and off. the only way i would consider staying on at that low of a dosage would be to do what you posted in the last part of your reply, switch to a faster acting ester, and ramp it back up after the lowest dosge is reached on the T2. then taper it down again SLOWLY. so we are in agreement on at least one thing-- now its up, down, back up, and then down again, correct?
the more i think about this, the more i like it, but like i said we need an experienced opinion here.

hey d, i think you might be on to something that will work here bro.........and no i dont think youre off your rocker at all. nice call my man.

peace bb79

[iron4life79]

damn bro,
where the hell you been? i been waiting 2 weeks on this reply.........hehe.
interesting thoughts on the hcg. ive never seen it run that way, but my cycles have never been long enough to need it at this point, so im just using examples of how ive seen it run. i like the ideas youre putting forward here bro, but we need someone whos been on for a while to verify this.
or i guess we could just go for it and see for ourselves.........


peace bb79

[Mallets back]

I agree that lower doses over a long period of time yield better overall gains...And like bigkev said periodically changing what gear your using and the amounts definately make a difference rather than just taking test cyp or enan for 6 months...And oral are definately not something you stay on for a long period of time...test however doesn't have the same kind of effect on the liver.

my average cycle though lasts about 4-5months

P.S it's good to see Bigkev...Papapump...Xbiker...and 4plates still on the board after all these years...you guy's are definately dedicated brothers!

[motoxxxguy]

P.S it's good to see Bigkev...Papapump...Xbiker...and 4plates still on the board after all these years...you guy's are definately dedicated brothers!

Sorry bro, Bigkev has turned scammer, twice, and 4plates is banned from AR for reasons I do not know. Xbiker and Papapump, still real good bros!

-moto

[shorty2big]

you know, an interesting point I want to make really quick. I run these long cycles, doing cycles within cycles, etc. . I really do think that staying on for an extended amount of time changes your bodies set point on how it adapts to wanting to appear and be when you are off. Here is a good example. Some of you know I got busted over memorial day. Before that, I had been on for about... god I don't know, probably over a year. More like a year and a half. Anyway, when I got busted I was in the middle of a medium dose of test,EQ,Winny,T3. I was forced to stop taking all this immediately besides the T3 which I took for another month. They are testing me for juice/testosterone levels. I couldn't even take any HCG or clomid with the fear that anything coming up different from the original test that they took would send me to prison. Needless to say by all means that abruptly stopping like that with no accessory drugs to help regulate that natural test, by all means you should crash pretty hard. It's two months later now. I have gained about 8pounds of fat since then which isn't bad considering I was really lean when I got busted. My strength is at least the same and In some cases, even stronger. The only effects that I could really feel after about 2-3 weeks of quiting was an big estrogen rebound and being a little lethargic. I got my hands on some nolvadex and that cleared the un-controllable eating habits up real quick. God I felt like I was PMSing!!!!! I feel pretty good right now. I'm not as hard but I have kept more muscle than any other time where I had previoulsy come "off" correctly. Just started some slin the other day to help fill me out a bit and tide me over until the case gets settled in a few weeks. Anyway, just something for you all to think about.
shorty2big

[iron4life79]

s2b,
this is the kind of response im looking for. a hands on approach to what we are discussing and thinking about trying.
interesting that everything remained AFTER you stopped cold like that. it makes me wonder what would have happened if you had the chance to taper off correctly, and use the post cycle supps. this is very promising indeed. you think your set point changed, and you kept everything despite the cold stop?
how often were you using hcg? if at all? and how big of a role do you think it played in helping you keep things "level" while being on that long? thanks again for your reply bro, this is what i needed to hear.

peace bb79

[Big Rush]

Awesome post...bump for more info.

[shorty2big]

I would use HCG abour every 6 weeks, 2500iu 2x for one week. That was it. It is really strange that in spite of everything that we have ever known in the past, by all means the cold stop should have brought a serious crash in hormones and muscle w/ pretty big increases in bf%. I did start doing cardio pretty religiously after I stopped 'cause I anticipated an extreme increase in bf%. The bf% has gone up but only a fraction of what I expected. The pic in my avatar is what I looked like the majority of the time over the last cycle. I was that lean for the majority of it and just getting stronger the longer that I was on. The increase in strength and muscle mass was a lot slower than the shotgun/short cycles but in my opionion ,WAY more worth the wait. In the past when I did the traditional 8-16 week cycle, the gain wasn't but 30-50% muscle and the rest water/fat and not very much was kept when coming clean. Like I said before, I have kept all my strength with only a 8lb +/- gain in fat. That is enough proof for me that I will never do traditional cycles again.

[shorty2big]

Here is a recent pic of me afterwards so you can see the difference. At this point I hadn't taken any nolvadex so I was holding a lot of water. Now I'm holding about 4-5 lbs. less water after taking the nolvadex. This pic was taken just a couple of weeks ago. I thought I would post this pic so you could compare the before and after with this type of cycle.
shorty2big

[iron4life79]

s2b,
i can see the difference bro, but imho, both pics look pretty damn good.
you look much.......stockier, in the 2nd one. i can see the cuts are still there though.
would you mind terribly laying out a sample cycle for me? i know its a pain in the ass, being that youre on so long at one time bro, but i want an idea in black and white of what im looking at gear wise here, and the length of time on each, and some amounts to base my own cycle on. i also think, after seeing those pics, some other brothers would be interested as well. if its too big of a deal to post here then would you mind pm'ing it to me?

btw- you look great bro, keep up the good work.

peace bb79

[shorty2big]

Originally posted by barbells79
s2b,
i can see the difference bro, but imho, both pics look pretty damn good.
you look much.......stockier, in the 2nd one. i can see the cuts are still there though.
would you mind terribly laying out a sample cycle for me? i know its a pain in the ass, being that youre on so long at one time bro, but i want an idea in black and white of what im looking at gear wise here, and the length of time on each, and some amounts to base my own cycle on. i also think, after seeing those pics, some other brothers would be interested as well. if its too big of a deal to post here then would you mind pm'ing it to me?

btw- you look great bro, keep up the good work.

peace bb79

I'll either post something on this thread or pm it to you in the next few days.

[iron4life79]

thanks brother,
its appreciated.


peace bb79

[Full Intensity]

What a great post. Really makes you think.

[iron4life79]

hey,
im all for tnt laying his opinion out here. and i agree with diesel as well, that we need to discuss the down sides of this too. but to be honest, i havent seen a down side post on this thread yet, so if anyone can explain some of the "darker" things about this type of cycle, please feel free.

peace bb79

[shorty2big]

I can honostly say that I can't really think of anything on a bad note for staying on so long besides the empty pockets!!! I am healthy as hell, never get sick, and I always feel good. Damn, I can't wait to get back on!!! For those of you that know, I am going through proceedings right now for being busted. Anyway, I get sentenced Thurs. and there is a very good chance that I will just get unsupervised probation. YOU KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS!!!!!!! Yipeeeeee
I will work on that cycle info today & pm it to you.

[iron4life79]

s2b,
i wish you the best as well.

im thinking we should probably talk precautionary measures here. being on that long has its obvious downsides. the empty pocket thing is also a definite consideration as im not made of money. just the anti e's alone would be a small fortune, if you went top end. the gear itself, depending on what im going to run, i could probably get reasonably cheaply.
im interested in if s2b got his liver values checked as well. along with some other tests, i think this would tell a big story on how hard this really is on your system.
im sorry s2b, but you seem to be the man on this thread right now bro, as you seem to have the experience we're looking for. so if we're badgering you, or youre getting tired of answering all these questions, say the word bro, ok?
i for one appreciate all youre doing here, so if you dont mind a sparing a little more time...........

peace bb79

[popa]

good thread

[shorty2big]

It's been since the beginning of June since I have done any juice. My body composition has changed, but I weigh about the same. I must say though, I have never kept so much of what I built(especially being 7mo clean) before. I have no doubt in my mind that it was the long cycle, low dosage.

[majorpecs]

BUMP...damn good read...I've never read this thread before!!

[BASK8KACE]

Great post!

Bump

[rangerdudeleads]

This is a great post and i have always done the 8- 10 week cycle but wanted to try a cycle at a little lower dosage and extend the cycle to 15 weeks at least. Im in my 11th week and I can tell you that i think this longer cycle has gave me better gains than my other shorter cycles. i have gained 25 lbs and strength has went through the roof so i would vouch that a longer cycle is better than a shorter cycle.

[majorpecs]

One thing I must say is that I am in week 9 of my first ever cycle, and I decided before even reading this cycle that I was going to run the eq for 14 weeks, test for 15 weeks, originally winny for 6, but now I am going to run fina for 8 weeks throught week 17....I am up about 25 also, and my strenght is insane right now....damn, i can't wait to start the fina!

[iron4life79]

the more replies on this thread, the better it will get.

any one can feel free to add their thoughts or experiences involving long run cycles. just for the record.........

im into my lowered dosing phase, meaning my 1st run for 15 weeks with the higher doses is over. i basically cut all my doses in half, or a little lower. in 10 weeks i'll raise the doses again, and go from there. i started this cycle at 203, and im up to 230. 9% b.f. im holding all the gains, despite lowering the dosages.

peace bb79

[shorty2big]

In my experience, when I was in the lower dose phase, I may have lost a little strength(very little), but my size always seemed to have improved just because of the illusion that was created when there was less water retention. There was none of this two steps forward and one step back stuff as when you came off a regular 10-12 week cycle. I just progressed and progressed.

[BigLad]

S2B - hello mate. I'm really interested in your cycle approach aswell. The plan you laid out to BB79 - any chance of openly posting it or p.m.'ing it to me aswell?

The low dose - long term approach seems sensible but I've never really known anybody who's used it (most tend to either use short cycles or go crazy and use high dose and long term LOL).

BTW - kudos on the look you've achieved mate. It truly is one of the best physiques I've seen.

Cheers mate.

BigLad.

[TheDarkSide]

after I read this i am hook on long cycle i cant wait to get starded
on my cycle a test only cycle maybe next time i will add more to cycle


this is the best thread I ever read i like the way bigkev runs it

BUMP

[hammerhead]

This is a great thread guys! Good info. I've been leaning towards longer cycles myself because - since i'm an older guy - it takes me longer to get going. I've also noticed that I keep the gains going as long as i'm on the juice and i've ran it for about 14 weeks. The gains slow down but they keep coming.

This is my problem though - and noone has touched on this yet - the long cycles are exactly what causes steroid-induced heart disease. The elevated blood pressure and the elevation of stress on the heart causes left-ventricular hypertrophy (LVH). It always occurs to some extent whenever you cycle. It does go away when you go off cycle - not necessarily completely. The time between cycles is essential to allow the heart muscle and your artery walls to return to a normal state before subjecting your heart to the great stress of anabolic steriods again. Also the stress on the adrenergic system is bad. The reduced HPTA can be helped by bumps of HCG - that helps the testicles - but the HPTA itself can be permanently damaged. This becomes more and more true the older you get - and it's we older guys that need the long cycles the most!

The ultimate question is not "Will longer cycles give me better gains?" or "Will longer cycles lead to more permanent gains?" because I can already tell you the answer to those are true. A "3 steps forward 1 step back" approach will outgain a "2 steps forward 1 step back" approach in the long run.

The ultimate question is "Are longer cycles worth the added risks of serious damage to my body?" This is the question I would like to see discussed.

[BASK8KACE]

bump (Great reply, Hammerhead)

[mmaximus25]

Year long low doses is the way of the future, I've tryed starting this debate but is did'nt go well. this is my 2-1/2 year on straight, I only change gear from high androgenic (tests) when done going to high anabolic, when I switch from high androgenic to the anabolic I will use hcg in conjuction after starting the anabolic, I use nolvadex (I haven't had my mammary glands removed yet) during my high dose weeks on test and when I couple like a d-bol-deca,
I went from 215 to 250 on a year mega dose cycle, I had some problems with money and couldn't afford my gear of a total of 5grams of master mix a week... I dropped away and changed my goals to modeling, I came down to 230 probablly lower that 4% BF for a shoot.. at 250 I was about 15-17lb of fat 5-7lb of water....
from then on I have stayed under a gram of any gear and firmly beleive if you know your body and how to prevent sides through diet and hormones, Yearly is for the advanced athlete, model and Pro BB'er.
For the record I belevie once you acheive the muscle maturity your comfortable with you can maintain on even lower doses of AS with good diet...

[mmaximus25]

the darker side...??? With out proper antidotes to the sides most commonly scene and unseen, during my first full year on I was brasin an rash about intake on test and failed to use nolvadex during the higher weeks, I got gyno in my left pec, my mammary got about a quarter size... you couldn't tell but if I asked you to grab a large chunk, you could feel it.... the diet keeps blood pressure ok, milk thisle keeps kidney and liver good, but when I couldn't get HCG I would stay on the test longer, but guess what happened when I couldn't get the nolvadex for a few months... You got be prepared in advance and if you take low doses highest being 1/2 a gram of anything you can avoid most of the problems that happened to me.... final assessment The risk to benifit was tolerable to me and still is... If your not able to have the antidotes to sides you should be careful... and I dont recommend a newbie that doesn't know about diet or how his gear works specifically to him, try this....I cycled for 3 yrs first before starting my stagger...

Also you really cant drink excessively or party hard if you have any apperences popping up, but for the most part GHB is my only party/sleep aid/ feel good drug... I dont take T3 any more because I can dial my diet like 911... every once and a blue moon "X"

[calirj0]

when he means longer cycles, hes saying in general-they dont have to be THAT long. In my experience, 6 or 8 week cycles are worthess, even 10 weekers are questionable if you are using deca or eq with any other longer acting drugs. the best way to set up a long cycle is set aside between 15-20 weeks, and try to accomplish different things at different junctures in the cycle.

Like, start with d-bol and longer acting injectables+EQ, and make your way to stuff like fina and winny by the end.

[BigLad]

Originally posted by hammerhead

This is my problem though - and noone has touched on this yet - the long cycles are exactly what causes steroid-induced heart disease. The elevated blood pressure and the elevation of stress on the heart causes left-ventricular hypertrophy (LVH). It always occurs to some extent whenever you cycle. It does go away when you go off cycle - not necessarily completely. The time between cycles is essential to allow the heart muscle and your artery walls to return to a normal state before subjecting your heart to the great stress of anabolic steriods again. Also the stress on the adrenergic system is bad.

Hammerhead - is it just the increased BP (presumably from the AS induced polycythaemia?) that causes left ventricular hypertrophy? If so are there methods to reduce BP while on? Or are there other AS induced causes?

Also, you mentioned the effect on the adrenergic system - I'm pretty ignorant on this but I thought AS would be beneficial by reducing cortisol production from catecholmaine stimulation - what did you mean exactly mate?

Also, what dosages induce these changes? Because there are many guys on low HRT doses (200-400mg per week). That should be enough to gain some - would it be enough to stimulate the left ventricular hypertrophy you mentioned?

Cheers for you input mate.

BigLad.

[mmaximus25]

quote to a bro:
Your risk to benefit dose will be your personal toleration... I will say one thing that you probably know but few really think about. This is personal data from a more advanced athlete than you and I but there are individuals that maintain such a good diet they virtually have 0 sides other than water and a little high blood pressure... With the use of your antiestrogens (nolvadex) and natural and synthetic gonadtropine (clomid and HCG) you will experience a difficult task of find side effects occurring. Not so much a bad thing... and I wouldn't want you to find out about gyno and a swollen prostate like myself, sounds crazy but I had to know what types of sides could occur and how to fix them. Now I know first hand and can give a dosage to some one... and 9 times of ten should work for them...
Ok... long wind once again...

Your risks will be in the blood pressure area, the heart, liver and kidneys. these are the only areas that are very hard to combat but, there are herbal, and physical remedies you can do to take the risk out of the picture.(cardio for your heart, in morning light...milkthisle for liver and kidneys after using a full rotation of androgenic to anabolic....blood pressure, low fat diet for no cholesterol adding, cardio)

At low doses and good diet and training I don't believe your heart will suffer major hypertrophy... Some good research would be looking up doctor prescribed doses for low T producing individuals and people with AIDES, Lupus, Addisons, Cancer....

[mmaximus25]

Also there isn't any data on AS contributing to heart disease in a healthy athlete. There are no studies specific on body builders that can take mega doses for 10-15 yrs stating that AS alone caused heart failure... In my opinion it’s the other crap taken with AS, all the dieting drugs, diuretics, lasixs, insulin and pain killers, nubain, special K, and partying along with that, Coke and amphetamines…

Heres a post I made:
My questions are a little general but for me personally I have receptor mapped my self with (the best records are from deca, prop, and winny)... I feel that most everyone can take a steroid at a high enough milligram and experience a similar anabolic growth... but there are few that know just at what minimum your dose can be and you achieve the same results. Ex I've taken 1000mg of deca and then to 2000mg per week and have concluded for me that I experience the same gains and no sides at 400mgs, but the gains I made at 2000mg I needed to take a minimum of 600-800mgs to accomplish...
From the fist post I made- I have now noticed a dramatic increase in muscular hypertrophy when I take the minimum mg yet continue to change the androgens.
My next test is to do the above but now record my medical status... heart, blood anomalies, test levels... for a year.

Just for the formal definition: Ref. Anabolic reference guide BIll P.
Receptor Mapping--- (This is a technique which is used in an attempt to determine how certain steroids affect a given individual.
Each person reacts differently to dosages of different steroids.
Mapping starts with recording a number of aspects of a cycle. First of all the steroids taken must be carefully documented everyday. Side’s appetite, sex drive, energy levels...
During the cycle the dosages should be steadily increased. If sides are occurring at the same time strength and weight gains are being made, the dosage should be lowered to see if gains out weigh the adverse reactions...
***Some use common sense as a form of receptor mapping. For ex. If an athlete was taking 200mg of deca a week and experiencing good strength and weight gains, while noticing no sides, this dose would be suspected to be optimal. Experimenting with going up to 400mg per week may bring on sides but not more gains...In this case the lower dose is optimal.)

[mmaximus25]

THis is how I run yearly now: My doses are below what I usually see here and are lower than I have ever taken.
My optimum dose for the following for me 400-600mg of deca a week, 200-400mg a week of enanthate, 150-300mg a week of prop, 100mg eod of winny... I have no sides with this use I have only gains, here is the kicker now I am steady in increasing muscle weight but I am making larger gains as far as size. My proportions are = to my size when 245 but now all muscle and at 220-225.

I break up the higher androgenic AS into short and long esters. my anabolic spreads have become (using setsthesun: A & B scenario) Anabolic A long ester and B short...
Finally, what I'm going to switch; is androgenic A long ester - then to anabolic A short ester- Androgenic B short ester- Anabolic B long ester.
The test subjects will be basic and domestic (domestic vs. exotic, meaning domestic is easy to get & exotic is costly and harder to get)
Subjects under personnel study: (Enanthate, Propionate, deca, winny, d-bol, EQ, nolva, proviron, hcg) I want EKG report and blood screen data to go along for this year and I'll be able to tell you from my data if I am suffering any anomolies

[Leroy Brown]

The method used by Silverfox and others of higher doses for a period, then lower doses, then repeat is common among pro bodybuilders. Blast away for a while, then "cruise" at a lower mainenance dose. You're taking a break from higher gear doses, from intense training, and from intense eating. You're just giving your body a break.

For a good read on this, go to the forum at animalkits.be and click on the thread "cycles on pennies" by Doggcrapp.

One risk of longer cycles that I can think of is higher cholesterol due to extended antiestrogen use.

I will be going on a longer cycle soon. I'll use a base of 750mg-1g testosterone, and cycle in things like dbol, drol, fina, winny. But I'll probably not use more than two steroids at once.

[iron4life79]

h.h
i dont doubt what your saying for a minute, but if possible can you post some studies on the heart/long dose aas thing?
we need silverfox and s2b to lock on here as well on this. im sure both of them have had things checked as they went, and while thats not a rule all of us can use, maybe their numbers will give us a sort of guideline to work with.

peace bb79

[silverfox]

Well on the heart thing, AAS does affect this for two reason, raised cholesterol and enlarged heart, now the enlarged heart is common when ppl lift, or endurance athletes. cholesterol is easy, have your blood work checked and if it's off back off. I think the affect on yoru heart is the most serious thing to keep in check when on a long cycle.

[mmaximus25]

bb79
203 to 230 thats great... you will continue to grow...with the long cycle, just a quick add on... I know now that I could have taken a 1/3 of the mega doses I did when going from 215 to 250... as long as the calorie intake is good you will not lose your mass... as I said before even after crashing and dieting down to 230 getting back on a lower dose cycle my muscle size and strength never really left...I also want to try and be a little more health conscience with the lower doses...

[mmaximus25]

Silverfox
I dont disagree about the enlarged heart so much but the cholesterol is from diet, bber's eating at Micky d's for high cals just plainly too much saturated fats...
I have a theory but it's not scientific, just kicked around in my head...
Our heart is pumping so many times a minute...right, well I use to cycle and by using my legs every day for 3hrs they were cut but not huge, most likely due to a catbolic effect. But I cant help but wonder, if the heart does get larger like people think: How can these guys go from 220 to 275 pounders and their heart not pop out of their chest... this just leds me to belive that heart failure is not due to the enlarge effect but the stress of tighter muscle fibers, and when it comes time to really work hard thats when the heart attack comes.... again not scientific but just sound right to me????