John Kerry Trashes Our Troops -- Again

[Logan13]

Actually, you are confusing the term "fact" with "interpretation". You interpret what I'm saying as a defense of Kerry and your calling your interpretation a "fact." In fact, maybe for you perception is reality. I say, that's too easy.

In fact, I think it was politically, a dumb thing to say and I would never defend it. But my interpretation of the statement is much different than yours.

But my point is that you would never attempt to interpret this statement otherwise if it had been a Republican who said it. I could appreciate your attempts to broaden the view, to sparse their words, if your sparse did not seem political............
IMO, Kerry is finished in regards to a berth for president in 2008. Not for his statement(his "bad joke"), but for his inability to apologize. 7 attempted apologies, the media kept this alive because of his shitty, half-hearted apologies. This shows a lack of character IMO.

[Mike Dura]

On the other hand, a sholarly pursuit may give you a superior perspective than that of a soldier who experienced it. Both have experience but not of the same quality and not with the same skills.

When we talk about "understanding" we're talking about something public and therefore we are talking about the communication of understanding through written language or discourse. A scholar has a mastery of language and exposition and basic domain knowledge in his or her expertise (e.g., the vietnam war).

The learned writer who studies the topic from every relevant angle and who does a shit-load of information processing will have a superior understanding to that of the soldier who has actually been there. The soldier might be better equipt to fight and take care of his provisions but not to explain the war.

That's why the majority of publications come from scholars over soldiers. That's not to say that a Ron Kovic or a Tim Robbins can't write a book that is rich in personal description and deep feeling but when it comes to analyzing the historical, political, the tactical or some more technical aspects of a war, the soldier will likely be out of his depths.

I think this idea that a person knows more because he or she was there is actually cliche. Two people can look at a bridge, for example, but they are not seeing the bridge. A 24 year old bridge arcitect is going to have more to say about the bridge than the eighty year old man who has been walking over bridges every day for seventy years. You may say that the old man has more "experience" but clearly the young book worm is your true source of understanding.

Probably because you and I did not experience Vietnam. A scholary pursuit 30years later will never give you the perspective that the soldiers had since they actually lived through it.

[Mike Dura]

I disagree. I think I'd do the same thing if it were a republican. I'm not trying to sparse anything. I'm just trying to examine the situation.

The whole Kerry thing was a minor distraction. The republicans tried to take advantage of it but it's of little use and by the end of next week most of the voters will have moved on to more important things. Kerry is not the face of the democrats.

But my point is that you would never attempt to interpret this statement otherwise if it had been a Republican who said it. I could appreciate your attempts to broaden the view, to sparse their words, if your sparse did not seem political............
IMO, Kerry is finished in regards to a berth for president in 2008. Not for his statement(his "bad joke"), but for his inability to apologize. 7 attempted apologies, the media kept this alive because of his shitty, half-hearted apologies. This shows a lack of character IMO.

[Logan13]

On the other hand, a sholarly pursuit may give you a superior perspective than that of a soldier who experienced it. Both have experience but not of the same quality and not with the same skills.

When we talk about "understanding" we're talking about something public and therefore we are talking about the communication of understanding through written language or discourse. A scholar has a mastery of language and exposition and basic domain knowledge in his or her expertise (e.g., the vietnam war).

The learned writer who studies the topic from every relevant angle and who does a shit-load of information processing will have a superior understanding to that of the soldier who has actually been there. The soldier might be better equipt to fight and take care of his provisions but not to explain the war.

That's why the majority of publications come from scholars over soldiers. That's not to say that a Ron Kovic or a Tim Robbins can't write a book that is rich in personal description and deep feeling but when it comes to analyzing the historical, political, the tactical or some more technical aspects of a war, the soldier will likely be out of his depths.

I think this idea that a person knows more because he or she was there is actually cliche. Two people can look at a bridge, for example, but they are not seeing the bridge. A 24 year old bridge arcitect is going to have more to say about the bridge than the eighty year old man who has been walking over bridges every day for seventy years. You may say that the old man has more "experience" but clearly the young book worm is your true source of understanding.

So now you are claiming to be said "scholar"? It's all about perspective. The only perspective that subsequent generations can have from the Vietnam war is that we failed because we lost our courage. We did not loose militarily, we lost due to social pressures created by the hippy generation, who BTW are now the leadership of the Ultra-Liberal Democratic party with whom most of America disagrees.....

[Logan13]

I disagree. I think I'd do the same thing if it were a republican. I'm not trying to sparse anything. I'm just trying to examine the situation.

The whole Kerry thing was a minor distraction. The republicans tried to take advantage of it but it's of little use and by the end of next week most of the voters will have moved on to more important things. Kerry is not the face of the democrats.

I disagree, I have never in my time here in the forum read where you tried to examine a situation toward the positive for a Conservative. Can you pull up a link to a thread in which you did this? If not, I must stick with my previous statement that your examinations always favor the left and thus marginilize your "scholarly" efforts. You are correct about one thing though, Kerry is not the face of the Democratic party......any longer.

[Mike Dura]

I'm not sure what you mean when you ask "so now you are claiming to be said "scholar." If you are asking if I'm claiming to be a scholar in historical/political studies...no I'm not.

So now you are claiming to be said "scholar"? It's all about perspective. The only perspective that subsequent generations can have from the Vietnam war is that we failed because we lost our courage. We did not loose militarily, we lost due to social pressures created by the hippy generation, who BTW are now the leadership of the Ultra-Liberal Democratic party with whom most of America disagrees.....

[Mike Dura]

You draw easy conclusions. During these times and with this particular administration, one is hard-pressed to speak positive towards these policies. High level republicans are speaking against the policies of the Bush administration. If one favors the left, it does not "marginalize" (you misuse the word - I think you mean minimize or undermine) one's scholary efforts. There are many scholars on the left. I'm not sure what you mean by scholar. One definition of a scholar is a person who has done advanced studies in a special field. As I mentioned, I'm not a scholar in the field relevant to politics or history. Oh by the way, the term marginalize means "to relegate to a marginal position within a society or group. Maybe you mean invalidate or undermine?

I disagree, I have never in my time here in the forum read where you tried to examine a situation toward the positive for a Conservative. Can you pull up a link to a thread in which you did this? If not, I must stick with my previous statement that your examinations always favor the left and thus marginilize your "scholarly" efforts. You are correct about one thing though, Kerry is not the face of the Democratic party......any longer.

[RA]

they shouldnt. sometimes in politics its nice to see people not defend at all costs and realize that the guy is a ****ing idiot.

Agreed

[Mike Dura]

Be easy on Kerry! Keep in mind, not everyone can be as sharp as Gearge Dubya.

they shouldnt. sometimes in politics its nice to see people not defend at all costs and realize that the guy is a ****ing idiot.

[LawMan018]

I honestly hate that mother****er. While giving his speech he should have worn a turbin and held up an ak-47. The terrorists are cheering every time he and his ilk talk. Notice we are having more attacks right now? hmmm, I wonder why.

Hmm... Perhaps because we "illegally" invaded an other country under false measures... Did Kerry choose too? Nope... Did Bush? Bingo... Also, people like to say we haven't been attacked on our homeland since 9/11... Well... We hadn't been attacked before Bush came into office either... Unless you want to include the British... Oh and um... What Terrorists were we after in Iraq? Because Al Qaeda (the ones who did it) sure as hell weren't stationed in Iraq (They were all Saudi Arabians were they not?). Oh and I believe this needs to go here

[RA]

Hmm... Perhaps because we "illegally" invaded an other country under false measures... Did Kerry choose too? Nope... Did Bush? Bingo... Also, people like to say we haven't been attacked on our homeland since 9/11... Well... We hadn't been attacked before Bush came into office either... Unless you want to include the British... Oh and um... What Terrorists were we after in Iraq? Because Al Qaeda (the ones who did it) sure as hell weren't stationed in Iraq (They were all Saudi Arabians were they not?). Oh and I believe this needs to go here

#1 Illegal according to who?

#2 Kerry doesnt know wtf he did " I voted for it before I voted against it" we can leave that pathetic ignorant ass out.

#3 How long did they plan the 9/11 attacks?

#4 We can argue all day long about should we or shouldnt we have gone to war in Iraq. The reality is that we are there and dissention at this point is costing lives. Kerry is costing lives.

#5 To think I cant respond to your textbook lib coating is overestimating yourself.

[Logan13]

You draw easy conclusions. During these times and with this particular administration, one is hard-pressed to speak positive towards these policies. High level republicans are speaking against the policies of the Bush administration. If one favors the left, it does not "marginalize" (you misuse the word - I think you mean minimize or undermine) one's scholary efforts. There are many scholars on the left. I'm not sure what you mean by scholar. One definition of a scholar is a person who has done advanced studies in a special field. As I mentioned, I'm not a scholar in the field relevant to politics or history. Oh by the way, the term marginalize means "to relegate to a marginal position within a society or group. Maybe you mean invalidate or undermine?

double post, see below

[Logan13]

You draw easy conclusions. During these times and with this particular administration, one is hard-pressed to speak positive towards these policies. High level republicans are speaking against the policies of the Bush administration. If one favors the left, it does not "marginalize" (you misuse the word - I think you mean minimize or undermine) one's scholary efforts. There are many scholars on the left. I'm not sure what you mean by scholar. One definition of a scholar is a person who has done advanced studies in a special field. As I mentioned, I'm not a scholar in the field relevant to politics or history. Oh by the way, the term marginalize means "to relegate to a marginal position within a society or group. Maybe you mean invalidate or undermine?

It means not being accepted by the central part of a social group, you may be accepted by those with your same ideals. But others will view your comments and "views" with a grain of salt knowing that you are not an impartial individual. I'm sorry that you cannot grasp the word, but I am even more sorry that you wish to debate semantics due to the lack of substance in your political views. We call it double talk where I come from, it can be useful in a debate, but it should never be the basis for your side of the debate. It is amusing that you say alot, and yet you say nothing. Have you figured out that you are not as intelligent as you thought you were yet?

[LawMan018]

Please elaborate on how Kerry is costing lives... I mean they aren't his troops, their Bush's. He didn't send them, Bush did... He isn't keeping them their, Bush is... Honestly, this war is turning out to be another Vietnam... Except Vietnam was for a good cause...

[LawMan018]

Oh and also, I mean, it shouldn't take a genious to figure this one out. Does it make any sense for a decorated war veteran to bash our troops? No, he was making a joke on Bush, and he made a mistake. I mean, a lot of people make mistakes, like becoming a Republican

[Logan13]

Oh and also, I mean, it shouldn't take a genious to figure this one out. Does it make any sense for a decorated war veteran to bash our troops? No, he was making a joke on Bush, and he made a mistake. I mean, a lot of people make mistakes, like becoming a Republican

Kerry is blinded by his political ideals, he will say anything that he thinks will help him politically. It doesn't take a genious to figure that out.

[Logan13]

Please elaborate on how Kerry is costing lives... I mean they aren't his troops, their Bush's. He didn't send them, Bush did... He isn't keeping them their, Bush is... Honestly, this war is turning out to be another Vietnam... Except Vietnam was for a good cause...

They are not Bush's or Kerry's troops, they are America's troops. As soon as you realize that we are all on the same team, the more productive this country will be. And BTW, Kerry did send them when he voted to go to war. The President cannot just send troops into war without Congress voting on it and more importantly, voting to fund it. Seems that you did not pay attention during Social Studies class................

[LawMan018]

They are not Bush's or Kerry's troops, they are America's troops. As soon as you realize that we are all on the same team, the more productive this country will be. And BTW, Kerry did send them when he voted to go to war. The President cannot just send troops into war without Congress voting on it and more importantly, voting to fund it. Seems that you did not pay attention during Social Studies class................

As soon as I realize we are all on the same team? I have realized, the moron who said Kerry should be wearing a Turbin and carrying an AK-47 needs to realize that. Also, you cannot hold Congress at fault for voting to protect our nation based on false claims. And, yes, I did pay attention during Social Studies

[LawMan018]

Kerry is blinded by his political ideals, he will say anything that he thinks will help him politically. It doesn't take a genious to figure that out.

I believe you accidentally placed John Kerry's name where Bush's name should be...

[Logan13]

I believe you accidentally placed John Kerry's name where Bush's name should be...

Wow, we are in the presence of a mental giant. You really did own me there.....

I have $20 that says that you are less than 22 YO and just do not know any better.

[LawMan018]

I'm 18 actually, and the son of a well knowledged teacher...

[Logan13]

I'm 18 actually, and the son of a well knowledged teacher...

"well knowledged"?
So you regurgitate whatever you hear than.........

[LawMan018]

No, I listen to the news, I listen to the radio, I hear what my grandparents say (Republican) and what my parents say (Democrat). I hear it from both sides and make my assumptions. For example, what kind of moron wants to build a wall to keep immigrants out of California. It's just stupid and selfish, it'll do a lot more harm then good, Republicans just seem to put the environment behind their own selfish wants and "supposed" needs.

[Logan13]

No, I listen to the news, I listen to the radio, I hear what my grandparents say (Republican) and what my parents say (Democrat). I hear it from both sides and make my assumptions. For example, what kind of moron wants to build a wall to keep immigrants out of California. It's just stupid and selfish, it'll do a lot more harm then good, Republicans just seem to put the environment behind their own selfish wants and "supposed" needs.

Please use specifics, what harms will this wall do?
What kind of moron you ask, 70%+ in the latest pole are in favor of the wall.....
The wall is just the start of it, the American people overwhelmingly want illegal immigration controlled.

[drpza333]

build the mo fo . im part of the 70 % .

[Teabagger]

and build it long...wide...and....high and if that doesn't work....mine the fricking border....

[drpza333]

thats the ticket keep it simple.. maybe we should let all non citizens who r here illegally and have never had a background check know that einstein has room at his place and would love to help maybe u could give them a third of your lunch money.

[drpza333]

oh yes kerry is a slime ball . take it e z .

[RA]

Oh and also, I mean, it shouldn't take a genious to figure this one out. Does it make any sense for a decorated war veteran to bash our troops? No, he was making a joke on Bush, and he made a mistake. I mean, a lot of people make mistakes, like becoming a Republican

Apparently you know nothing about Kerry. He was bashing troops in front of congress as soon as he got back from Vietnam. Hes been doing it ever since.

[RA]

As soon as I realize we are all on the same team? I have realized, the moron who said Kerry should be wearing a Turbin and carrying an AK-47 needs to realize that. Also, you cannot hold Congress at fault for voting to protect our nation based on false claims. And, yes, I did pay attention during Social Studies

Well you need to take it over again junior. My point about him was with every idiot speech he gives like that he emboldens the terrorists.

[Mike Dura]

I do grasp the word "marginalize" and I even gave a precise definition of the term so what you said doesn't really make sense. About you saying something about me "not being intelligent as I think I am" - again, that's you making your own inferences about my intentions and it's irrelevant to the topic (the topic is niether about my intelligence nor intelligence in general) so your statement is "off the mark" and personal attacks reveal more about you than it does me (and I'll let the reader make their own references about your conduct.

I don't wish to debate the meaning of words due to a lack of substance in my political views. In fact, examing a person's language is how a person cares enough to take the time to figure out what another person is trying to communicate.

If you feel I'm saying alot but not saying anything I'm thinking you're not grasping what I'm saying. If so, there's nothing wrong with that. I'm sure you've got your niche in life and you have a wife, daughter, a job - you pay taxes and drink beer with your buddies. You got your hobby with bodybuilding and that's a passion we both share. Hey you're ok with me.

But when it comes to issues that are not as clear-cut and as simple as your thinking, you're bound to eventually run into people like me who, in your estimate, say alot but say nothing (those so-called "double talkers") - maybe not in your clich of friends but those talking head are everywhere.

The more you learn about something the more ways you have to look at it and the more you can say about it (Hence, alot of words and alot of open-endedness). Don't feel threatened by people like that and don't waste your time trying to attack them. Better to learn for yourself for your own edification and growth. You'll improve to the best of your capacities. Like bodybuilding, it takes some hard work and some imagination. Good luck!

It means not being accepted by the central part of a social group, you may be accepted by those with your same ideals. But others will view your comments and "views" with a grain of salt knowing that you are not an impartial individual. I'm sorry that you cannot grasp the word, but I am even more sorry that you wish to debate semantics due to the lack of substance in your political views. We call it double talk where I come from, it can be useful in a debate, but it should never be the basis for your side of the debate. It is amusing that you say alot, and yet you say nothing. Have you figured out that you are not as intelligent as you thought you were yet?

[Logan13]

I do grasp the word "marginalize" and I even gave a precise definition of the term so what you said doesn't really make sense. About you saying something about me "not being intelligent as I think I am" - again, that's you making your own inferences about my intentions and it's irrelevant to the topic (the topic is niether about my intelligence nor intelligence in general) so your statement is "off the mark" and personal attacks reveal more about you than it does me (and I'll let the reader make their own references about your conduct.

I don't wish to debate the meaning of words due to a lack of substance in my political views. In fact, examing a person's language is how a person cares enough to take the time to figure out what another person is trying to communicate.

If you feel I'm saying alot but not saying anything I'm thinking you're not grasping what I'm saying. If so, there's nothing wrong with that. I'm sure you've got your niche in life and you have a wife, daughter, a job - you pay taxes and drink beer with your buddies. You got your hobby with bodybuilding and that's a passion we both share. Hey you're ok with me.

But when it comes to issues that are not as clear-cut and as simple as your thinking, you're bound to eventually run into people like me who, in your estimate, say alot but say nothing (those so-called "double talkers") - maybe not in your clich of friends but those talking head are everywhere.

The more you learn about something the more ways you have to look at it and the more you can say about it (Hence, alot of words and alot of open-endedness). Don't feel threatened by people like that and don't waste your time trying to attack them. Better to learn for yourself for your own edification and growth. You'll improve to the best of your capacities. Like bodybuilding, it takes some hard work and some imagination. Good luck!

Again, alot of words but you say nothing. Your posts read like a damn book. If you were better at getting your point across, it wouldn't take 5-8 paragraphs per post.........

[Mike Dura]

Those "damn books" can make a world of difference! Good luck!

Again, alot of words but you say nothing. Your posts read like a damn book. If you were better at getting your point across, it wouldn't take 5-8 paragraphs per post.........

[RA]

Again, alot of words but you say nothing. Your posts read like a damn book. If you were better at getting your point across, it wouldn't take 5-8 paragraphs per post.........

I noticed that. The smartest people can get their point across in the fewest words possible.