Update on Resveratrol

[Property of Steroid.com]

Damn this is a battle going on. The real question is has anyone used cyogenx yet?

We've sold some bottles, yes. I haven't kept up really, though...we probably should do some kind of marketing campaign soon, I think.

[donniebrasco]

^^^^^ not that it bothers me, but i have used lots of your info while researching and gone by your guidelines......

[ginkobulloba]

Any update on cyogenx? Do we have any human blood tests confirming the improvement in lipid profiles? Surely someone has done this. If it works, I'd be willing to give it a try.

[Property of Steroid.com]

Haven't gotten bloodwork from anyone. People seem to like the products a lot, though, from feedback I've gotten.

However, there's several studies speculating about how resveratrol works, both of which I had access to prior to coming out with the CyoGenX product. One is called "Resveratrol: A Preconditioning Agent" (from UCONN) and the other is called "Relationship Mechanisms, Bioavailability, and preclinical chemopreventitive efficiency: A conundrum".

Neither dispute the efficacy of Resveratrol (as that's not really an issue in the scientific community), but rather, they speculate on how it works so well.

[Swifto]

Haven't gotten bloodwork from anyone. People seem to like the products a lot, though, from feedback I've gotten.

However, there's several studies speculating about how resveratrol works, both of which I had access to prior to coming out with the CyoGenX product. One is called "Resveratrol: A Preconditioning Agent" (from UCONN) and the other is called "Relationship Mechanisms, Bioavailability, and preclinical chemopreventitive efficiency: A conundrum".

Neither dispute the efficacy of Resveratrol (as that's not really an issue in the scientific community), but rather, they speculate on how it works so well.

Ha Ha.

Even when scientists state it is. Yeah, sure its not an issue.

[Property of Steroid.com]

Ha Ha.

Even when scientists state it is. Yeah, sure its not an issue.

Ha ha? You should read the studies I posted.

As a side note, I always wonder why people who are not professionals in my industry often think they have relevant opinions or know more than those who are professionals. Doesn't it stand to reason that if one knew more than a professional in this industry, one would actually be a professional in the industry?

It's like when Greg Kovacs said he was baically the strongest man in the world, then never broke a single record ...everyone knew he was full of shit.

[marcus300]

Haven't gotten bloodwork from anyone. People seem to like the products a lot, though, from feedback I've gotten.

However, there's several studies speculating about how resveratrol works, both of which I had access to prior to coming out with the CyoGenX product. One is called "Resveratrol: A Preconditioning Agent" (from UCONN) and the other is called "Relationship Mechanisms, Bioavailability, and preclinical chemopreventitive efficiency: A conundrum".

Neither dispute the efficacy of Resveratrol (as that's not really an issue in the scientific community), but rather, they speculate on how it works so well.

Anthony I was recently reading some studies someone sent to me regarding this Resveratrol and they make very interesting reading, it does look like its pretty useless at the dose you have in your product and also there are claims it doesnt even reach the blood stream, I will highlight the important bits for you.



EBSCO CAM Medical Review Board-

You may have heard of the "French paradox." The French diet is very high in saturated fat and cholesterol (just think of pate de fois gras and croissants), yet France has one of the world's lowest rates of heart disease. One theory for this apparent discrepancy is that another major player in the French diet—red wine—protects the arteries of the heart. (Another possibility, perhaps even more likely, is that cutting down on saturated fat is less harmful than previously thought. See the high cholesterol article for more information.)
Resveratrol is a natural antioxidant found in red wine. Antioxidants protect cells in the body from damage by free radicals, naturally occurring but harmful substances that are thought to play a role in cardiovascular disease . Resveratrol is also a phytoestrogen, a substance that mimics some of the effects of estrogen, while blocking others. Soy , another phytoestrogen, is thought to help prevent heart disease as well as cancer, and resveratrol might have similar effects. However, as yet none of these potential benefits of resveratrol have been documented in any meaningful way, and there is some evidence that resveratrol taken by mouth is broken down before it enters the bloodstream.

Sources
Resveratrol is not an essential nutrient. It is found in red wine as well as in red grape skins and seeds and purple grape juice. Peanuts also contain a small amount of resveratrol. Resveratrol supplements are available as well.


Therapeutic Dosages
Because there havent been any clinical studies, the optimal therapeutic dosage hasnt been established for resveratrol. Based on animal studies, a reasonable therapeutic dosage of resveratrol might be about 500 mg daily.

Therapeutic Uses
Very preliminary evidence such as the results of test tube studies suggests that resveratrol may help prevent heart disease , 2–5 and cancer . 9–14 However, not all studies have been favorable. 6,7,8,15 Furthermore, there is some evidence that resveratrol is immediately broken down by the human liver, and thereby does not in fact enter the blood stream at any significant level. 16 In any case, only double-blind studies can prove a treatment effective, and none have been reported with resveratrol. (For information on why such studies are essential, see Why Does This Database Rely on Double-Blind Studies? )


Safety Issues
Resveratrol has a chemical structure similar to that of the synthetic estrogenic hormone diethylstilbestrol and it has estrogenic effects. According to one study, it might stimulate the growth of breast cancer cells. 15 For this reason, resveratrol should be avoided by women who have had breast cancer or are at high risk of developing it. Maximum safe dosages for children, pregnant or nursing women, or those with severe liver or kidney disease have not been determined.

1. Gehm **, McAndrews JM, Chien PY, et al. Resveratrol, a polyphenolic compound found in grapes and wine, is an agonist for the estrogen receptor. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A . 1997;94:14138–14143.
2. Goldberg DM. More on antioxidant activity of resveratrol in red wine [letter]. Clin Chem . 1996;42:113–114.

3. Siemann EH, Creasy LL. Concentration of the phytoalexin resveratrol in wine. Am J Enol Vitic. 1992;43:49–52.

4. Kopp P. Resveratrol, a phytoestrogen found in red wine. A possible explanation for the conundrum of the ‘French paradox’? Eur J Endocrinol . 1998;138:619–620.

5. Rotondo S, Rajtar G, Manarini S, et al. Effect of trans-resveratrol, a natural polyphenolic compound, on human polymorphonuclear leukocyte function. Br J Pharmacol . 1998;123:1691–1699.

6. Turrens JF, Lariccia J, Nair MG. Resveratrol has no effect on lipoprotein profile and does not prevent peroxidation of serum lipids in normal rats. Free Radic Res . 1997;27:557–562.

7. Pace-Asciak CR, Rounova O, Hahn SE, et al. Wines and grape juices as modulators of platelet aggregation in healthy human subjects. Clin Chim Acta. 1996;246:163–182.

8. Wilson T, Knight TJ, Beitz DC, et al. Resveratrol promotes atherosclerosis in hypercholesterolemic rabbits. Life Sci . 1996;59:PL15–PL21.

9. Jang M, Cai L, Udeani GO, et al. Cancer chemopreventive activity of resveratrol, a natural product derived from grapes. Science . 1997;275:218–220.

10. Mgbonyebi OP, Russo J, Russo IH. Antiproliferative effect of synthetic resveratrol on human breast epithelial cells. Int J Oncol . 1998;12:865–869.

11. Subbaramaiah K, Chung WJ, Michaluart P, et al. Resveratrol inhibits cyclooxygenase-2 transcription and activity in phorbol ester-treated human mammary epithelial cells. J Biol Chem . 1998;273:21875–21882..

12. Clement MV, Hirpara JL, Chawdhury SH, et al. Chemopreventive agent resveratrol, a natural product derived from grapes, triggers CD95 signaling-***endent apoptosis in human tumor cells. Blood . 1998;92:996–1002.

13. Johnson JL, Maddipati KR. Paradoxical effects of resveratrol on the two prostaglandin H synthases. Prostaglandins Other Lipid Mediat . 1998;56:131–143.

14. ElAttar TM, Virji AS. Modulating effect of resveratrol and quercetin on oral cancer cell growth and proliferation. Anticancer Drugs. 1999;10:187–193.

15. Gehm **, McAndrews JM, Chien PY, et al. Resveratrol, a polyphenolic compound found in grapes and wine, is an agonist for the estrogen receptor. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A . 1997;94:14138–14143.

16. Walle T, Hsieh F, DeLegge MH et al. High absorption but very low bioavailability of oral resveratrol in humans. Drug Metab Dispos . 2004;32:1377-82.

Another interesting read and study-

Dr. Thomas Walle of the Medical University of South Carolina led a study which found that oral dietary supplements of resveratrol are unlikely to have any effect on breast and prostate cancer.

The study monitored blood levels of resveratrol following both oral and intravenous administration. No free resveratrol was present in blood samples drawn after oral doses; urine contained resveratrol only as sulfate and glucuronic acid conjugates, none as the free, presumably active, form. The only blood samples containing free resveratrol were those drawn within 30 minutes following the intravenous injection.

Based on these results, Dr. Walle said it is highly unlikely that resveratrol per se can have any effect on organs like the breast or prostate gland. He also said that further study could be done to see if orally administered resveratrol could prevent cancers along the aerodigestive tract, and to see if the resveratrol sulfate conjugate detected in circulating blood may exert the preventive activities claimed for resveratrol.

(Source: Federation of American Societies for Experimental Biology, 4/19/2004;
Article: presented at Experimental Biology 2004, as part of the scientific sessions of the American Society of Pharmacology and Experimental Therapeutics.)




PRITIKIN LONGEVITY CENTRE -
In the latest research, scientists reported that overweight, middle-aged mice whose high-calorie, high-fat diet was supplemented by resveratrol had better health and lived longer than chubby counterparts who did not receive it. Resveratrol is a compound found in common foods like grapes, red wine, and nuts.

The study, funded in part by the National Institute on Aging (NIA) of the National Institutes of Health (NIH), concluded that resveratrol appeared to lower the rate of diabetes, liver problems, and other fat-related ill effects in obese mice.

But don’t rush out and buy red wine or resveratrol supplements yet, cautions registered dietitian Jeffrey Novick. "The jury is still out, way out.”

For starters, the mice were fed massive doses of resveratrol – 24 milligrams per kilogram of body weight. “Red wine has about 1.5 to 3 milligrams of resveratrol per liter, so a 150-pound person would need to guzzle 750 to 1,500 bottles of red wine a day to get such a dose. Well,” Jeff jokes, “if it didn’t extend your life, you’d be so drunk you wouldn’t really care.”

Pills of resveratrol would require huge doses as well. “Many supplements have about 20 milligrams. The amount used in the study was the equivalent of giving a 150-pound man 1,636 milligrams, which would be about 80 pills a day,” notes Jeff.

Megadoses are scary because everything, even nutrients, is potentially toxic ***ending on the dose. That’s why the old saying “the dose makes the poison” is so true. Beta carotene is a beneficial chemical naturally occurring (in small amounts) in many fruits and vegetables, but massive doses in supplement form increased the risk of lung cancer in smokers. Huge doses of vitamin E increased the risk of heart problems in heart patients.

Indeed, in an NIH press statement, the authors of the resveratrol study cautioned that “we still have much to learn about resveratrol’s safety and effectiveness in humans.”

Some negative side effects are already known, emphasized one of the study’s authors, Rafael de Cabo, PhD, at NIH. Animal studies have shown that high doses of resveratrol affect blood platelets, which could increase the risk of bleeding when taken with anticoagulant, anti-platelet, or nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs.

Bottom line:
There are no long-term studies on humans yet, so why take a chance? In huge doses, resveratrol is no longer a natural compound. It’s a drug. We have no idea what the side effects of taking it are. Resveratrol, like beta carotene and vitamin E, may turn out to cause more harm than good.

What to do:
Don’t get star-struck by the latest “miracle” or “super” food or nutrient that gets promoted in the media.

“Me?” smiles Jeff Novick. “I’m going to keep eating my favorite foods – fresh fruits and veggies – and plenty of grapes, the natural and healthy source of resveratol. Fresh fruits and veggies don’t make the morning paper’s headlines, but they do provide an abundance of vitamins, minerals, antioxidants, and phytochemicals proven to help us live longer, healthier lives.

“No single ingredient, resveratol included, can duplicate the nutritional riches – and rewards – of a healthful diet.

[Property of Steroid.com]

Anthony I was recently reading some studies someone sent to me regarding this Resveratrol and they make very interesting reading, it does look like its pretty useless at the dose you have in your product and also there are claims it doesnt even reach the blood stream, I will highlight the important bits for you.

So how does it work? There isn't much debate on that. If it doesn't reach the bloodstream, then how does it work? None of what was posted says that it doesn't work....not if you read the full studies. Also,..the theraputic dosage...is roughly what a man would get from a full day of my product, if you read the studies. Theraputic dose...that phrase...seems to indicate that it works, right?

Also....since Biotest produces a Resveratrol product, you should probably post your queries on T - Nation as well, since I think Cy Wilson (one of my colleagues) likely should be able to answer these questions better than myself. That, if you forgot, is tha first site to expost Paul Borreson as a fraud (none of the degrees or credentials he claimed)...by the staff.

[marcus300]

So how does it work? There isn't much debate on that. If it doesn't reach the bloodstream, then how does it work?

Also....since Biotest produces a Resveratrol product, you should probably post your queries on T - Nation as well, since I think Cy Wilson (one of my colleagues) likely should be able to answer these questions better than myself.

Yes I thought you couldnt answer them, it does make interesting reading that it doesnt even reach the blood stream and also that taken in oral form is useless and if you wanted to see any benefits from it it would alot highter around 500mg if I am right, and your supp as 50mg if I read right.

I know you would never admit its useless but the studies do show it.

I might take you up on the offer and post it on t nation. might see you over there,

Thanks for the offer

[Property of Steroid.com]

Yes I thought you couldnt answer them, it does make interesting reading that it doesnt even reach the blood stream and also that taken in oral form is useless and if you wanted to see any benefits from it it would alot highter around 500mg if I am right, and your supp as 50mg if I read right.

I know you would never admit its useless but the studies do show it.

I might take you up on the offer and post it on t nation. might see you over there,

Thanks for the offer

Weird...your "notes" and "citations" are not properly annotated. They don't tell you anything about what they support in your claims. That's ok though. You aren't a professional in this industru, and shouldn't be held to the standards the rest of us are.


No you're not reading it right. You should take some remedial courses in reading I suppose.

I've answered them already. I've cited studies in this very thread which answers them.

However, since this is only one ingredient in my product, and Cy has put out a whole product with Biotest which is just this very ingredient, I bet he knows more about it than me.

I also think that your queries would be better suited to that site than this one. Just my opinion.

You should read the articles on PB on T - Nation, though. The expose him as the loser/druggie/fraud he was before his OD. They're written by the staff, by the way...people who put a name to their articles ,and not just internet-forum-losers who post anonymously.

[Property of Steroid.com]

Anthony I was recently reading some studies someone sent to me regarding this Resveratrol and they make very interesting reading, it does look like its pretty useless at the dose you have in your product and also there are claims it doesnt even reach the blood stream, I will highlight the important bits for you.

Therapeutic Dosages
Because there havent been any clinical studies, the optimal therapeutic dosage hasnt been established for resveratrol. Based on animal studies, a reasonable therapeutic dosage of resveratrol might be about 500 mg daily.

Therapeutic Uses
Very preliminary evidence such as the results of test tube studies suggests that resveratrol may help prevent heart disease , 2–5 and cancer . 9–14 However, not all studies have been favorable. 6,7,8,15 Furthermore, there is some evidence that resveratrol is immediately broken down by the human liver, and thereby does not in fact enter the blood stream at any significant level. 16 In any case, only double-blind studies can prove a treatment effective, and none have been reported with resveratrol. (For information on why such studies are essential, see Why Does This Database Rely on Double-Blind Studies? )

I've noticed that you said that resveratrol doesn't work, then you quote studies which mention a theraputic dose. If it doesn't do anything, then what does a theraputic dose provide therapy for?

Also...the theraputic dose you cite is 500mgs...my max dose for a man using CyoGenX is 450mgs, according to the product info. Seems like I've read the info before, huh?

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/pfac/cyo.html

It's available for well under $30 bucks now at BB.com.

Enjoy

[Random]

I will be using some very soon...bloodwork before and after too

CD

[ginkobulloba]

I will be using some very soon...bloodwork before and after too

CD

Are you going to be using it coming off a cycle? Taking anything else along with it, red yeast rice, niacin, etc?

[Property of Steroid.com]

I will be using some very soon...bloodwork before and after too

CD

Now that I think about it...i don't know if bloodwork is going to show what we need. Estrogen should go down a bit (if you were using just AAS, then AAS + Cyo, and got bloodwork from those seperate times)....but since some of the components in Cyo act as SERMs, and one elevates free test, I wonder what we're going to see that's useful.

If you get bloodwork while on nothing, then while on Nolv, your estrogen will have gone up on Nolv (not down) even though your estrogenic side would effects go down.

[Property of Steroid.com]

I will be using some very soon...bloodwork before and after too

CD

Now that I think about it...i don't know if bloodwork is going to show what we need. Estrogen should go down a bit (if you were using just AAS, then AAS + Cyo, and got bloodwork from those seperate times)....but since some of the components in Cyo act as SERMs, and one elevates free test, I wonder what we're going to see that's useful.

If you get bloodwork while on nothing, then while on Nolv, your estrogen will have gone up on Nolv (not down) even though your estrogenic side would effects go down.

[Swifto]

Ha ha? You should read the studies I posted.

As a side note, I always wonder why people who are not professionals in my industry often think they have relevant opinions or know more than those who are professionals. Doesn't it stand to reason that if one knew more than a professional in this industry, one would actually be a professional in the industry?

It's like when Greg Kovacs said he was baically the strongest man in the world, then never broke a single record ...everyone knew he was full of shit.

Your not even a "member of the scientific community" yourself. You have ZERO qualifications in the scientific community, yet, like to believe your something, how can I put this, special.

I'm no "professional in the industry", so what? It doesnt mean I cant dispute your claims. Or are we about to all witness your ego again.

Truth is, there are studies for and against Resveratrol. I'd say more against its use in supplements, your argue for. Well....You would. Its one of the main ingredients in your latest "supplement", CyoGenX.

[Swifto]

Its simple.

You believe Anthony Roberts, or whatever your name is. Someone thats constantly made his goals clear, whatever the consequnces. Someone that openly admits he's bias and in it for the money.

Or, Johan Auwerx, a professor of medicine at the Institute of Genetics and Molecular and Cellular Biology in Strasbourg, France, aswell as other scientists.

[Property of Steroid.com]

Unfortunately, you've not got the technical nor logical ability, nor credentials in this industry to justify my time in really explaining to you why you're wrong again.

[Swifto]

Unfortunately, you've not got the technical nor logical ability, nor credentials in this industry to justify my time in really explaining to you why you're wrong again.

Or I'd have to pay $200 and hour, right?

How did I know your ego was around the corner...?

We'll just leave it then...As I'm not paying $200.

[Property of Steroid.com]

Or I'd have to pay $200 and hour, right?

How did I know your ego was around the corner...?

We'll just leave it then...As I'm not paying $200.

Actually, I can't take any more clients. I'm too busy, and $200/hour is a ton of money for people to pay, and it's not really enough to justify my time.

I'm likely going to close consultations soon, or at least limit them.

As for getting an ego like mine, just have the #1 ranked steroid reference book on Amazon.com for 2 straight years. It's not hard.

(For me, anyway.)

[Swifto]

Actually, I can't take any more clients. I'm too busy, and $200/hour is a ton of money for people to pay, and it's not really enough to justify my time.

I'm likely going to close consultations soon, or at least limit them.

As for getting an ego like mine, just have the #1 ranked steroid reference book on Amazon.com for 2 straight years. It's not hard.

(For me, anyway.)

$200 isnt enough. Jeez....

As for your ego. You had that before you wrote a book with Brian. Remember SwoleCats post(s)?

Anyway. I'm going back to helping where I can. Obviously I'm not qualified to enter into dialogue with such tainted individual in this field and the "scientific community".

And you go back to pushing your products.

Have a good day Anthony (Tony).

[Random]

^^^hmm i was more interested in its effect on joints, and cholesterol...your thoughts?

CD

[ginkobulloba]

Yeah, that's what I was interested in, the cholesterol.

[Random]

Last i checked bb.com didnt have it

CD

[vitor]

I guess the question becomes, why use money on cyogenx instead of (for example)aromasin, for increasing T-levels? lowering estrogen? Because it "might" improve joint health and cholesterol?

Alot of AAS users or natrual trainers already take cholestrol and joint supplements anyway(including me)...So unless cyogenx proves to be much more effective than them I see little reasen to spend money on a less affective anti-e than what ime using now...

Myogenx seems to offer people more imo, as it might increase T-levels (without being supressive) form another pathway that an anti-estrogen will. That makes myo a bit unique, rather than cyo which seems to yust replace what we already have available in a less effective manner imo...

[goose]

Good post as always buddy To be honest Im looking forward to MR roberts fat loss product,as the Rumour it will have the same mechanism as DNP.Also with this product you will be able to see the results and how good the product is.So it will be all eyes on me.Going to be great for this genre.

I guess the question becomes, why use money on cyogenx instead of (for example)aromasin, for increasing T-levels? lowering estrogen? Because it "might" improve joint health and cholesterol?

Alot of AAS users or natrual trainers already take cholestrol and joint supplements anyway(including me)...So unless cyogenx proves to be much more effective than them I see little reasen to spend money on a less affective anti-e than what ime using now...

Myogenx seems to offer people more imo, as it might increase T-levels (without being supressive) form another pathway that an anti-estrogen will. That makes myo a bit unique, rather than cyo which seems to yust replace what we already have available in a less effective manner imo...

[Property of Steroid.com]

I guess the question becomes, why use money on cyogenx instead of (for example)aromasin, for increasing T-levels? lowering estrogen? Because it "might" improve joint health and cholesterol?

Alot of AAS users or natrual trainers already take cholestrol and joint supplements anyway(including me)...So unless cyogenx proves to be much more effective than them I see little reasen to spend money on a less affective anti-e than what ime using now...
...

Well that's the point...something that will help with estrogen and also be good as an anti-oxidant, for joints, lipids, the prostate, cholesterol, etc...

Look at it the other way:

What if you have the choice between a vitamin and a vitamin that helps with estrogen? All things being equal, you'd choose the second one; so since you're using stuff that the Cyo does anyway, but won't help with estrogen, it makes sense to switch to the Cyo.

[vitor]

Well that's the point...something that will help with estrogen and also be good as an anti-oxidant, for joints, lipids, the prostate, cholesterol, etc...

Look at it the other way:

What if you have the choice between a vitamin and a vitamin that helps with estrogen? All things being equal, you'd choose the second one; so since you're using stuff that the Cyo does anyway, but won't help with estrogen, it makes sense to switch to the Cyo.

Ok,
Do you know when your fat-loss supplement will be available?
Any idea how effective it will be, compared to other things like DNP, T3, clen etc?

[Property of Steroid.com]

Ok,
Do you know when your fat-loss supplement will be available?
Any idea how effective it will be, compared to other things like DNP, T3, clen etc?

No idea. I need to start working on getting an ingredient in it besides the main one (which is a mitochondrial uncoupler, and not in anything else on the 'market now).

Since I'm writing for (and editing) a new magazine, most of my time is being taken up with that now...I'll be done with it Friday, and it'll be on news stands next month, then I'll work on the fat burner.

[Swifto]

Well that's the point...something that will help with estrogen and also be good as an anti-oxidant, for joints, lipids, the prostate, cholesterol, etc...

Look at it the other way:

What if you have the choice between a vitamin and a vitamin that helps with estrogen? All things being equal, you'd choose the second one; so since you're using stuff that the Cyo does anyway, but won't help with estrogen, it makes sense to switch to the Cyo.

Except the price of the two, right? Vitimins arnt priced the same as CyoGenX are they. Bad logic Anthony.

[Property of Steroid.com]

Except the price of the two, right? Vitimins arnt priced the same as CyoGenX are they. Bad logic Anthony.

I suspect that if he uses a lot of vitamins (or even a decent amount) to counteract the bad effects of AAS, and he dumps them all to use Cyo instead, that it would be about the same price.

I'm assuming he buys it for like $30 or so from BB.com though. He can dump some of the joint support stuff, cholesterol stuff, anti-oxidants, etc...which would likely add up to about the same as Cyo.

As for "bad logic"...I actually have a degree in Philosophy, where I specialized in logic. I assure you that between you and I, there is no chance that my logical abilities would be the lesser of the two.

[Random]

^^^ Goose i was thinking the same thing...when will that be released Anthony?

CD

[Adam F]

Anthony Dont Worry about it Bro. Fruns has a habit of barging in into threads being argumentive providing no useful information to the orginial poster. 23 useless posts and counting. Welcome to AR I know we need the post whore count to go up. Im sure you will be useful there.

[Property of Steroid.com]

Anthony Dont Worry about it Bro. Fruns has a habit of barging in into threads being argumentive providing no useful information to the orginial poster. 23 useless posts and counting. Welcome to AR I know we need the post whore count to go up. Im sure you will be useful there.

I've been a member since ...well, a long time...one of the longest standing members to stil post. I never outgrew the site, and talk to the owner weekly, and honestly...he's one of my best friends now. I was a mod here before all of them (except one or two)....seriously, that should count for something, I think.

I'm the only past mod who wasn't retired against their wishes who still posts.

[Swifto]

I've been a member since ...well, a long time...one of the longest standing members to stil post. I never outgrew the site, and talk to the owner weekly, and honestly...he's one of my best friends now. I was a mod here before all of them (except one or two)....seriously, that should count for something, I think.

I'm the only past mod who wasn't retired against their wishes who still posts.

Actually, you wernt a Mod when I joined here. I remember when "Hooker" joined here and you had the number of posts I could count on one hand.

Here comes the Brians my best mate tactic.

[Adam F]

Make that 24 useless post 76 away from a source check keep posting. Anyone that suggest taking 1G of DNP is a retard. My last post regarding you. Have a good day Fruns.

[Swifto]

Its pretty cut and dry.

I'll say it again. Believe Anthony Roberts, or whatever your alias is nowadays. Someone who claims to be, in it for the money. Or scientists writing articles who specialise in this subject and various studies. Members of society that ARE "professionalls".

[wanescotting]

Uh, why doesn't someone get a blood test, try the product for a month, and then get another blood test at the end of the trial period?

That being said, I do appreciate a good ole' fashioned debate..........

[Property of Steroid.com]

Uh, why doesn't someone get a blood test, try the product for a month, and then get another blood test at the end of the trial period?

That being said, I do appreciate a good ole' fashioned debate..........

That probably won't work with Cyo, to test estrogen suppression. See, if it primarily acts as a SERM, with weak AI properties, it's possible that the test elevation will keep estrogen levels the same, though unable to exert their negative effects. Nolvadex increases estrogen levels, though we consider it an anti-estrogen. With Cyo, we really need to look at other stuff rather than estrogen suppression alone.

[vitor]

With Cyo, we really need to look at other stuff rather than estrogen suppression alone.

We can yust look at testosterone levels b/f and after...To se if it works...

Any anti-e should increase T-levels above normal levels, (ive had BW a few times to confirm this with some of the aroamatase inhibitors and serms..)