CLEN's Anti-catabolic effects, experienced people please chime in.

[Forbidden16]

I still had my hopes a bunch of people would come claiming their hardcore LBM retention while on Clen!

[Swifto]

I've been researching Clenbuterol for a while now. I've read up the profiles, studies and done my research around. From what I have gathered, Clen does indeed shows an anti-catabolic/anabolic effect on animals at high doses. Then I've also read debates about people saying it is and people saying it's not.

My intend is not to form a debate here but I would like to form my final thoughts on what I can see is the major consensus from anecdotal evidence gathered from users here who have cut NATURALLY before and then with CLEN and that could draw a conclusion on how muscle preserving the compound was.

I see people saying a lot "Clen is great for fat loss", what do you mean by that? That you could lose weight faster? If that isn't accompanied by an increased protein retention then cutting "faster" isn't any better and more riskier for muscle waste.

Keep in mind I'm talking natural vs. clen here, no AAS involved whatsoever.

There's also evidence in human's its anabolic.

J Heart Lung Transplant. 2008 Apr;27(4):457-61.

Clenbuterol increases lean muscle mass but not endurance in patients with chronic heart failure.
Kamalakkannan G, Petrilli CM, George I, LaManca J, McLaughlin BT, Shane E, Mancini DM, Maybaum S.

Division of Cardiology, Department of Medicine, Montefiore Medical Center, Albert Einstein College of Medicine, Bronx, New York, USA.

Comment in:

J Heart Lung Transplant. 2008 Aug;27(8):934-5.

Clenbuterol, a beta(2)-agonist with potent anabolic properties, has been shown to improve skeletal muscle function in healthy subjects, and in high doses, promotes cardiac recovery in patients with left ventricular assist devices. In a small, randomized controlled study, we investigated the effect of clenbuterol on skeletal muscle function, cardiac function, and exercise capacity in patients with chronic heart failure. Clenbuterol was well tolerated and led to a significant increase in both lean mass and the lean/fat ratio. Maximal strength increased significantly with both clenbuterol (27%) and placebo (14%); however, endurance and exercise duration decreased after clenbuterol. Prior data support combining exercise training with clenbuterol to maximize performance, and on-going studies will evaluate this approach

""Clenbuterol increases lean muscle mass but not endurance in patients with chronic heart failure."




J Heart Lung Transplant. 2006 Sep;25(9):1084-90.

Effect of clenbuterol on cardiac and skeletal muscle function during left ventricular assist device support.
George I, Xydas S, Mancini DM, Lamanca J, DiTullio M, Marboe CC, Shane E, Schulman AR, Colley PM, Petrilli CM, Naka Y, Oz MC, Maybaum S.

Department of Surgery, Division of Cardiothoracic Surgery, Columbia College of Physicians and Surgeons, New York, New York 10032, USA. [email protected]

BACKGROUND: High-dose clenbuterol (a selective beta2-adrenergic agonist) has been proposed to promote myocardial recovery during left ventricular assist device (LVAD) support, but its effects on cardiac and skeletal muscle are largely unknown. METHODS: Seven subjects with heart failure (5 ischemic, 2 non-ischemic) were started on oral clenbuterol 5 to 46 weeks post-LVAD implantation and up-titrated to daily doses of 720 microg. The following procedures were performed at baseline and after 3 months of therapy: echocardiography at reduced support (4 liters/min); cardiopulmonary exercise testing; body composition analysis; and quadriceps maximal voluntary contraction (MVC). Myocardial histologic analysis was measured at device implantation and explantation. RESULTS: There were no serious adverse events or arrhythmias. Creatine phosphokinase (CPK) was elevated in 4 subjects, with no clinical sequelae. No change in ejection fraction was seen. End-diastolic dimension increased significantly (4.73 +/- 0.67 vs 5.24 +/- 0.66; p < 0.01), despite a trend toward increased LV mass. Body weight and lean mass increased significantly (75.5 +/- 17.9 vs 79.2 +/- 25.1 kg, 21.1 +/- 8.9 vs 23.6 +/- 9.7 kg, respectively; both p < 0.05). Exercise capacity did not change, but MVC improved significantly from 37.0 +/- 15.7 to 45.8 +/- 20.6 kg (p < 0.05). No significant change in myocyte size or collagen deposition was seen. CONCLUSIONS: Cardiac function did not improve in this cohort of LVAD patients treated with high-dose clenbuterol. However, clenbuterol therapy increased skeletal muscle mass and strength and prevented the expected decrease in myocyte size during LVAD support. Further study will clarify its potential for cardiac and skeletal muscle recovery.

The dose was increased by 20 mcg every week, for 41 weeks. Ending on 720mcg/ED.

[thane222]

very good info on this thread, not sure how anti catabolic clen is, but love its cutting effect.

[Forbidden16]

Thanks for posting those studies Swifto, I had stumbled upon them when researching studies and had totally disregarded them. I guess at the dose we are advised to take it the anti-catabolic effects are too mild to notice but are probably there.

Returning to the question I had about a dose of Anavar of 20mg~ (or less) for purely anti-catabolic purpose, would it be of good use for it?

[Mr.Rose]

Thank you Swifto!! I was searching my universities publishing archive and could not find one study on humans!. Thats great, any chance of a full article?

Yeh i did not say that there is no anti-catabolic effects, however, i did say that at the doses we take them they are insignificant.

Yes that dose of anavar would be anti-catabolic, but not to much of an extent. Remember it will still shut down your HTPA and i would never recommend it without a test base. But thats just my opinion as i have no supporting studies to prove that it will shut down your HTPA until natural production is insufficient.

[Mr.Rose]

Swifto, how did the patients react to 720mg/ED, i mean by week 41, the effect of the clen would of become far less pronounced as their beta-2 receptors would be deregulated, or did they keep them upregulated?

[Forbidden16]

Thank you Swifto!! I was searching my universities publishing archive and could not find one study on humans!. Thats great, any chance of a full article?

Yeh i did not say that there is no anti-catabolic effects, however, i did say that at the doses we take them they are insignificant.

Yes that dose of anavar would be anti-catabolic, but not to much of an extent. Remember it will still shut down your HTPA and i would never recommend it without a test base. But thats just my opinion as i have no supporting studies to prove that it will shut down your HTPA until natural production is insufficient.

What I had read about Anavar so far pointed at it being mild at suppressing the HPTA at least, I didn't think such a lower dose would risk a shut down.

[americanoak]

im not a var expert, at all, but from what i have seen on this board and read elsewhere, taking 20mg dose of var has an extremly low chance of shutting down own natty production

[Mr.Rose]

Like i said, i have no supporting studies to prove that it will shut down ur HTPA until natural production of test is insufficient.

Maybe Swifto can clarify, or any other with more knowledge.

[Swifto]

Swifto, how did the patients react to 720mg/ED, i mean by week 41, the effect of the clen would of become far less pronounced as their beta-2 receptors would be deregulated, or did they keep them upregulated?

I dont have the full paper, sorry.

The dose was increased to counter downregulation of beta-2 receptors over 41 weeks.

[Swifto]

Anavar is a strange compound. In some it exerts little effect on the HPTA, but in others it can cause total cessation of ganadotropins. In a dose given to pubertal boy's (2.5mg/ED) it decreased serum, LH and T by a fair margin. Thats 2.5mg/ED!

Effect of low dose oxandrolone and testosterone treatment on the pituitary-testicular and gh axes in boys with constitutional delay of growth and puberty.

Crowne EC, Wallace WH, Moore C, Mitchell R, Robertson WH, Holly JM, Shalet SM.

Department of Endocrinology, Christie Hospital Trust, Manchester, UK.

OBJECTIVE: To investigate the effect of low dose oxandrolone and testosterone on the pituitary-testicular and gh-IGF-I axes. DESIGN: Prospective double-blind placebo-controlled trial. PATIENTS: Sixteen boys with constitutional delay of growth and puberty (CDGP) with testicular volumes 4-6 ml were randomized to 3 months treatment: Group 1 (n = 5), daily placebo: Group 2 (n = 5), 2.5 mg oxandrolone daily or Group 3 (n = 6), 50 mg testosterone monthly intramuscular injections with assessment (growth, pubertal development and overnight hormone profiles) at 0, 3, 6 and 12 months. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: lh - leutenizing hormone - and gh profiles (15-minute samples) were analysed by peak detection (Pulsar), Fourier transformation and autocorrelation. testosterone levels were measured hourly and insulin, sex hormone binding globulin , IGF-I, and IGFBP-3 levels at 0800 h. Statistical analysis was by multivariate analysis of variance for repeated measures. RESULTS: lh - leutenizing hormone - and testosterone parameters increased significantly with time in all 16 (lh - leutenizing hormone - AUC, P < 0.001; peak amplitude, P = 0.02; number of peaks, P = 0.02; testosterone AUC, P = 0.02; morning testosterone, P = 0.002). In Group 2, however, lh - leutenizing hormone - and testosterone parameters decreased at 3 months followed by a rebound increase at 6 and 12 months. sex hormone binding globulin levels were markedly reduced at 3 months (P = 0.006) and a wider range of dominant gh frequencies was present although gh AUC was not increased until 6 months, with an increase in gh pulse frequency but not amplitude. IGF-I levels were increased at both 3 and 12 months. In Group 3, pituitary-testicular suppression was not apparent, but gh levels increased with an increase in gh amplitude at 3 and 12 months. CONCLUSION: Oxandrolone transiently suppressed the pituitary-testicular axis and altered gh pulsatility. testosterone increased gh via amplitude modulation

[Ronnie Rowland]

anyone with a nervous disposition can encounter panic attacks and depression using clen

True, and I have seen people contribute their low carb/calorie diet as causing them to become easily angered towards others when in reality it was the clen.

[dec11]

True, and I have seen people contribute their low carb/calorie diet as causing them to become easily angered towards others when in reality it was the clen.

yeah, i got snappy on it also, not good at 6am whilst pt'ing a client

[Forbidden16]

Anavar is a strange compound. In some it exerts little effect on the HPTA, but in others it can cause total cessation of ganadotropins. In a dose given to pubertal boy's (2.5mg/ED) it decreased serum, LH and T by a fair margin. Thats 2.5mg/ED!

Effect of low dose oxandrolone and testosterone treatment on the pituitary-testicular and gh axes in boys with constitutional delay of growth and puberty.

............
............

CONCLUSION: Oxandrolone transiently suppressed the pituitary-testicular axis and altered gh pulsatility. testosterone increased gh via amplitude modulation

Thanks for the info Swifto, something to have in mind.

[teddykgb29]

some very good clenbuterol information on this thread, thanks

[t-gunz]

whats with all the aussies getting slammed lol

[Mr.Rose]

They think we are dumb. I don't know, spending my whole life with my nose in books and attending university lectures since i was 16 mustn't make me very knowledgeable .