TRT - Self Administered?

[HRTstudent]

How the hell were you able to talk to a doctor on the phone?...

AND not even being a patient... lol I am being totally cynical here but that is odd/suspicious as hell (to actually talk to the practicing doc on a cold phone call)! ROFL!

Of note... one of the contraindications of TRT is actually wanting to conceive in the next year. That fits you perfectly so why not just put it off until you conceive? having a kid is far more important than what you said was mainly vanity reasons for starting TRT. Thats just my personal opinion.

[gbrice75]

don't back down, simply lay it all out on the table and make sure you get the injections, AI and hCG. best of luck to you GB, please keep us posted.

Thanks brother, I will most definitely keep this thread updated. Fingers crossed for good things...

How the hell were you able to talk to a doctor on the phone?...

AND not even being a patient... lol I am being totally cynical here but that is odd/suspicious as hell (to actually talk to the practicing doc on a cold phone call)! ROFL!

lol, i'm with you... it does seem a little shady but i'm less concerned with how shady his practice is, and more concerned with what his knowledge is - and so far, he seems to know what he's talking about. I'll have a much better idea post-consultation.

I literally called and he answered, lol!! BUT - I had to call on 2 separate occasions (scheduling) after that initial call, and both times got a receptionist - so maybe it was just a freak occurance. *shrug*

Of note... one of the contraindications of TRT is actually wanting to conceive in the next year. That fits you perfectly so why not just put it off until you conceive? having a kid is far more important than what you said was mainly vanity reasons for starting TRT. Thats just my personal opinion.

I want to clarify - my initial interest in TRT was vanity reasons, however as I learned more, I realized I have many of the symptoms of low test / andropause:

depression (have been borderline depressed for many years, but perhaps I've always had sub-par test??)
lethargic (almost all the time)
low libido
ED (kind of embarrassing to admit, but at times, maintaining wood has been an issue)
low muscle mass (vanity, but still an indication)
trouble losing bodyfat (same as above)
etc etc

Is it 100% proven that TRT will have a negative impact on sperm count/male fertility? Will running HCG counteract that, and if so, to what degree, in general? Is there anything more appropriate than HCG?

Yes, I could definitely hold off, having another kid or two is light years a priority over this. I have just been looking forward to feeling better, but I can wait if I have to. I just can never get a definitive answer on this topic... I have friends who are on TRT and have all knocked up their significant other during treatment.

[warchild]

Thanks brother, I will most definitely keep this thread updated. Fingers crossed for good things...



lol, i'm with you... it does seem a little shady but i'm less concerned with how shady his practice is, and more concerned with what his knowledge is - and so far, he seems to know what he's talking about. I'll have a much better idea post-consultation.

I literally called and he answered, lol!! BUT - I had to call on 2 separate occasions (scheduling) after that initial call, and both times got a receptionist - so maybe it was just a freak occurance. *shrug*



I want to clarify - my initial interest in TRT was vanity reasons, however as I learned more, I realized I have many of the symptoms of low test / andropause:

depression (have been borderline depressed for many years, but perhaps I've always had sub-par test??)
lethargic (almost all the time)
low libido
ED (kind of embarrassing to admit, but at times, maintaining wood has been an issue)
low muscle mass (vanity, but still an indication)
trouble losing bodyfat (same as above)
etc etc

Is it 100% proven that TRT will have a negative impact on sperm count/male fertility? Will running HCG counteract that, and if so, to what degree, in general? Is there anything more appropriate than HCG?

Yes, I could definitely hold off, having another kid or two is light years a priority over this. I have just been looking forward to feeling better, but I can wait if I have to. I just can never get a definitive answer on this topic... I have friends who are on TRT and have all knocked up their significant other during treatment.

No trt is NOT 100% on killing sperm counts. You'll need a sperm count for that. Yes HCG can help with fertility. Cant really tell you what degree because everybody reacts different. I run 1000ius weekly for a month every 4 months. HMG is way stronger for male fertility and I myself will be checking into it soon enough.

[warchild]

on a side note. dont admit to this doc about prior aas use. if your insurance gets wind of this, then they could deny coverage. make them think its hypogonadism. thats what mine thinks and its all covered minus hcg. hope this helps brice

[gbrice75]

No trt is NOT 100% on killing sperm counts. You'll need a sperm count for that. Yes HCG can help with fertility. Cant really tell you what degree because everybody reacts different. I run 1000ius weekly for a month every 4 months. HMG is way stronger for male fertility and I myself will be checking into it soon enough.

on a side note. dont admit to this doc about prior aas use. if your insurance gets wind of this, then they could deny coverage. make them think its hypogonadism. thats what mine thinks and its all covered minus hcg. hope this helps brice

Thanks for the info and tips bro... no plans to admit any past AAS usage. Will definitely look into HMG, been reading up on it lately anyway as I research this further.

PS - love the avy!

[warchild]

thnx man! good luck and keep me posted. going on trt for me was a good choice, really turned my life around.

[HRTstudent]

There are no 100% in medicine my good man

Never forget that!

However, some people are able to have kids while on TRT, but it does not help your odds! Thats why they say to wait or to try alternative therapies, mentinoed prior. Starting TRT and trying to have kids is basically setting yourself up for even more problems or exacerbating the ones you currently have.

What happens if/when you cant conceive? More stress, more depression, etc.
What if you cant figure out your E2 for 6 months? Definitely more erection problems, libido could be far worse, then of course subjective symptoms get worse.

I think that a lot of people get sucked into TRT as a quick fix. But my personal experience and what I notice is that for most people it is slow. Some effects happen in months, but overall, its a slow'ish process. And that is even if you have a decent doc who knows what they are doing. I did not have that unfortunately and TRT had me worse off for many months before seeing any positive outcome.

[gbrice75]

thnx man! good luck and keep me posted. going on trt for me was a good choice, really turned my life around.[/QUOTE]

Nice to hear this bro. Care to elaborate?

There are no 100% in medicine my good man

Never forget that!

Yea, good point. No absolutes.

However, some people are able to have kids while on TRT, but it does not help your odds! Thats why they say to wait or to try alternative therapies, mentinoed prior. Starting TRT and trying to have kids is basically setting yourself up for even more problems or exacerbating the ones you currently have.

What happens if/when you cant conceive? More stress, more depression, etc.
What if you cant figure out your E2 for 6 months? Definitely more erection problems, libido could be far worse, then of course subjective symptoms get worse.

I think that a lot of people get sucked into TRT as a quick fix. But my personal experience and what I notice is that for most people it is slow. Some effects happen in months, but overall, its a slow'ish process. And that is even if you have a decent doc who knows what they are doing. I did not have that unfortunately and TRT had me worse off for many months before seeing any positive outcome.

Thanks for the great info as always HRT, you're doing good things around here, we're lucky to have you.

On another note - I had to reschedule tonight's appt. for next Tuesday. I scheduled it completely forgetting about the holiday... there are fireworks tonight and I want to be there with the little guy for his first 4th of July... so, I have to put my own stuff on the back burner. That means another week of suffering through the gym (because really, I feel i'm suffering at this point - I was so close to quitting this morning, it's not even funny anymore), etc. I realize TRT won't turn this around overnight as HRT pointed out, however I believe just knowing i'm on the road to recovery will help brighten up my attitude and outlook a bit.

[gbrice75]

Finally had my 'consultation' with the doc last night. I emphasize 'consultation' because it was a major strike out. The guy was a total quack. About 70 years old, and looked like the doctor in Cannonball Run (remember Jack Elam in that movie!?!).

I expressed my concern about infertility, and he was VERY assuring that I had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to worry about. Imagine if I didn't know any better and took his careless advice. No mention of HCG, HMG, etc. mind you - just that I had nothing to worry about. He actually told me that I'd be MORE fertile because i'd be having sex more often!!! Wha- wha- WHAT!?!?!? Exactly how does the frequency of sex have any bearing on fertility? That was all I needed to hear before I couldn't wait to get outta there. To make matters worse, he was planning on prescribing me (assuming I qualify) Androgel. When I expressed that the only treatment i'd be interested in is injectables, he told me he wouldn't prescribe that, it's not at a point where it's 'safe' for treatment (BS), that there's no way to self-administer and injection (again, bs) and there is no proper way to dose (bs bs bs).

The good news is it wasn't all in vain; I got the script for bloodwork which is what i'll need no matter who I see. I'm going to request the lab send me a copy of the bloodwork (because as it stands now, they will send the doc the results and he'll call me to come back and go over it with him... and I'm done with him). Then i'll schedule another appt. and let the new doc know I have recent bloodwork and would just need to review it with him/her. I will of course post it up here first, because if you guys don't see any abnormalities, there's no point in me pursuing this with a doc (and subsequently paying for office visits).

Strike 1!!!

[zaggahamma]

sorry it didnt go well

u must have needed a rx for bloodwork for insurance purposes

[warchild]

Finally had my 'consultation' with the doc last night. I emphasize 'consultation' because it was a major strike out. The guy was a total quack. About 70 years old, and looked like the doctor in Cannonball Run (remember Jack Elam in that movie!?!).

I expressed my concern about infertility, and he was VERY assuring that I had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to worry about. Imagine if I didn't know any better and took his careless advice. No mention of HCG, HMG, etc. mind you - just that I had nothing to worry about. He actually told me that I'd be MORE fertile because i'd be having sex more often!!! Wha- wha- WHAT!?!?!? Exactly how does the frequency of sex have any bearing on fertility? That was all I needed to hear before I couldn't wait to get outta there. To make matters worse, he was planning on prescribing me (assuming I qualify) Androgel. When I expressed that the only treatment i'd be interested in is injectables, he told me he wouldn't prescribe that, it's not at a point where it's 'safe' for treatment (BS), that there's no way to self-administer and injection (again, bs) and there is no proper way to dose (bs bs bs).

The good news is it wasn't all in vain; I got the script for bloodwork which is what i'll need no matter who I see. I'm going to request the lab send me a copy of the bloodwork (because as it stands now, they will send the doc the results and he'll call me to come back and go over it with him... and I'm done with him). Then i'll schedule another appt. and let the new doc know I have recent bloodwork and would just need to review it with him/her. I will of course post it up here first, because if you guys don't see any abnormalities, there's no point in me pursuing this with a doc (and subsequently paying for office visits).

Strike 1!!!

that will happen. took me a few times to find an educated doctor. keep looking. the other doctor will more than likely want you to get another set of labs also.

[gbrice75]

^^ ugh, I hope not. I don't want to keep going back for bloodwork. I have a high deductible insurance plan - a $5,000 deductible. However, my company pays the first $4,000 of that deductible. Once I reach that $4,000, i'm responsible out of pocket for the next $1,000 before regular benefits 'kick in'. So obviously it's in my interest to spend as little as possible.

[zaggahamma]

hopefully the plan is free to have?

i sometimes feel better off paying cash

[gbrice75]

It's free for me, but at the moment I have my wife and son on the plan who are not free.

If I could afford it all, i'd pay cash but as I understand it, TRT can be expensive.

[bass]

Finally had my 'consultation' with the doc last night. I emphasize 'consultation' because it was a major strike out. The guy was a total quack. About 70 years old, and looked like the doctor in Cannonball Run (remember Jack Elam in that movie!?!).

I expressed my concern about infertility, and he was VERY assuring that I had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to worry about. Imagine if I didn't know any better and took his careless advice. No mention of HCG, HMG, etc. mind you - just that I had nothing to worry about. He actually told me that I'd be MORE fertile because i'd be having sex more often!!! Wha- wha- WHAT!?!?!? Exactly how does the frequency of sex have any bearing on fertility? That was all I needed to hear before I couldn't wait to get outta there. To make matters worse, he was planning on prescribing me (assuming I qualify) Androgel. When I expressed that the only treatment i'd be interested in is injectables, he told me he wouldn't prescribe that, it's not at a point where it's 'safe' for treatment (BS), that there's no way to self-administer and injection (again, bs) and there is no proper way to dose (bs bs bs).

The good news is it wasn't all in vain; I got the script for bloodwork which is what i'll need no matter who I see. I'm going to request the lab send me a copy of the bloodwork (because as it stands now, they will send the doc the results and he'll call me to come back and go over it with him... and I'm done with him). Then i'll schedule another appt. and let the new doc know I have recent bloodwork and would just need to review it with him/her. I will of course post it up here first, because if you guys don't see any abnormalities, there's no point in me pursuing this with a doc (and subsequently paying for office visits).

Strike 1!!!

now thats a new one! LOL. hey G, sounds like you know what you're doing searching for TRT, your visit might be a strike one but its also one step ahead like you said you got lab work out of it. i look forward to seeing your labs.

[gbrice75]

^^ Thx B... i'm going to find another doc before going for labs. I want to make sure they'll accept labs that were prescribed by another doc and avoid going twice, or more.

[bass]

most take labs up to 3 months old.

[gbrice75]

^^ that'd be awesome.

[gbrice75]

UPDATE!!!

I went for a consultation with another doc yesterday. This was NIGHT AND DAY from my last visit. This guy was cool, funny, had great bedside manner, and most important - knew his shit. I brought up the fact that i'd only be interested in injectables (assuming I'm a candidate) and he said "fine, I'll give you whatever you want. If you wan't shots, i'll prescribe shots". I brought up the fertility issue and he said we'd do sperm analysis tests and start HCG if the count was dropping too much. However I know I can just ask and he'll put me on it from the start. I brought up gyno and other estro related sides and he said we'd monitor my estrogen levels and then he'd prescribe adex if need be - although again, I think I can just ask him for it right from the start as a precaution.

Now it's just a matter of my levels. He went over my bloodwork from 7 months ago (which only measured total test, not free unfortunately) - he said it was within normal range (around 560) but also said it was on the lower end. He said that if he were treating somebody with low test, he'd try to get them up to around 800-900, well over where I'm at - so that's a good thing. They took blood and I should know within a week whether or not i'll be starting, based on what the free test looks like. Honestly, I can't imagine it's not low - I can't seem to grow any muscle beyond where i'm at now (and if this is my genetic limit, i'm in the wrong business), I bump calories and add nothing but bodyfat. Hoping for good things... the irritability, lack of energy, libido, etc... all of that.

Wish me luck guys. I'll update again as soon as I hear yay or nay.

[bass]

best of luck to you bro, and thanks for the update. sounds like you got a good one this time! my new doctor which i like allot said the same thing to me about my total test, its was in mid 700s and she said she likes to see my total higher. keep us posted!

[gbrice75]

^^ nice!!

On another note - can anybody give me a rough idea of what I'd be looking at, cost wise, per month if I were to pay 100% out of pocket for a TRT protocol? Say roughly 500mg test cyp, 4000iu HCG, and adex... for which I have no idea yet how my doc would have me run it.

Just trying to get a rough estimate. Am I looking at $100 a month, or $500?

[HRTstudent]

^^ nice!!

On another note - can anybody give me a rough idea of what I'd be looking at, cost wise, per month if I were to pay 100% out of pocket for a TRT protocol? Say roughly 500mg test cyp, 4000iu HCG, and adex... for which I have no idea yet how my doc would have me run it.

Just trying to get a rough estimate. Am I looking at $100 a month, or $500?

10mL of testosterone from most pharmacies is 100 dollars out of pocket. Im pretty sure all the big retailers would be the same. That 10mL would last you at least 10 weeks though. HCG... I have no idea what that is from a local pharmacy as I don't use it. Anastrozole is available in a generic form and you take such a low dose that a 30 pill bottle would last months. Probably less than $50 dollars for the bottle.

All in all, the drugs for TRT are relatively cheap (if you don't use testim, androgel, etc) but the lab work and frequent Dr visits are where you will spend a LOT more.

[gbrice75]

^^ thx for the info. The doctors visits and lab work are what i'm expecting insurance WILL cover. With these drugs being relatively cheap, I will hopefully be gtg.

[Dpyle]

Gb ask your doc how he codes the lab work. My old insurance policy covered preventative care 100% and when I told the doc that that's what he coded the lab work as so I paid nothing for that set of labs.

[gbrice75]

Awesome, good to know, thx bro!

[Hackamaniac]

560 level at 36 and you want Trt?? Trt sounds great, but it's not all peaches and cream... Unless you reallly need it, I wouldn't get on it just for vanity reasons.... I had alot lower levels than you and i'm younger, and sometimes wish I wouldn't of started....Good luck either way, I would give it alot of thougth though, no need to rush into it.

[warchild]

UPDATE!!!

I went for a consultation with another doc yesterday. This was NIGHT AND DAY from my last visit. This guy was cool, funny, had great bedside manner, and most important - knew his shit. I brought up the fact that i'd only be interested in injectables (assuming I'm a candidate) and he said "fine, I'll give you whatever you want. If you wan't shots, i'll prescribe shots". I brought up the fertility issue and he said we'd do sperm analysis tests and start HCG if the count was dropping too much. However I know I can just ask and he'll put me on it from the start. I brought up gyno and other estro related sides and he said we'd monitor my estrogen levels and then he'd prescribe adex if need be - although again, I think I can just ask him for it right from the start as a precaution.

Now it's just a matter of my levels. He went over my bloodwork from 7 months ago (which only measured total test, not free unfortunately) - he said it was within normal range (around 560) but also said it was on the lower end. He said that if he were treating somebody with low test, he'd try to get them up to around 800-900, well over where I'm at - so that's a good thing. They took blood and I should know within a week whether or not i'll be starting, based on what the free test looks like. Honestly, I can't imagine it's not low - I can't seem to grow any muscle beyond where i'm at now (and if this is my genetic limit, i'm in the wrong business), I bump calories and add nothing but bodyfat. Hoping for good things... the irritability, lack of energy, libido, etc... all of that.

Wish me luck guys. I'll update again as soon as I hear yay or nay.

Just keep in mind that some doctors will treat the symptoms of low test also. Just cause your levels are in the normal 400-1100 range doesn't mean your out of luck yet. Such as mine did. I was at 400 total but the symptoms I described were enough for my doc to put me on trt at 25. He was a powerlifter in his day and I see him at the gym every now and again. So when I see him he likes to hear my progress in the gym which is cool for a doctor.
Cost- well my insurance covers everything with a 15$ co-pay except the hcg. That cost 90$ at his office for 10000ius w/ bac water and syringes.
test at his office for 10cc is also 90$. adex was around 60$ for 8 1mg pills.

[Hackamaniac]

^^ Alot of guys get put on....Doesn't mean they really needed it.... Alot of the symptoms can be from other stuff and not tesosterone levels...

[warchild]

^^ Alot of guys get put on....Doesn't mean they really needed it.... Alot of the symptoms can be from other stuff and not tesosterone levels...

very true, but in my case the symptoms went away after trt

[Allaaro]

Even if the doc will put on you adex right off the bat, I wouldn't ask for it. I'd wait for bloodwork and run from there. The HCG could go both ways to start right away or not. I just think its a bad idea to start to lower estrogen levels when you don't even how how your body is converting to it from the extra testosterone. Start without it, then add small to see if over-responder if you need it, then bump it up from there with the test to get optimal levels.

[gbrice75]

560 level at 36 and you want Trt?? Trt sounds great, but it's not all peaches and cream... Unless you reallly need it, I wouldn't get on it just for vanity reasons.... I had alot lower levels than you and i'm younger, and sometimes wish I wouldn't of started....Good luck either way, I would give it alot of thougth though, no need to rush into it.

Like I mentioned previously - my initial interest was out of vanity, but as I researched and read about symptoms of low T, it was as if I were reading a profile of myself. At this point I do 'want' it... if it will help alleviate some/all of these symptoms. i.e. my interest is honestly no longer driven by vanity, although of course whatever physical benefits that come with TRT are welcomed.

Trust me, this is not a decision I am taking lightly. I realize it's a potential life long commitment,and at 36, I (hopefully) have a lot of life left to live. Even if I get the green light, and insurance pays for 100% of everything (I realize this won't be the case), I will STILL have to make a final decision. At this point i'm simply exploring options and solutions.

Just keep in mind that some doctors will treat the symptoms of low test also. Just cause your levels are in the normal 400-1100 range doesn't mean your out of luck yet. Such as mine did. I was at 400 total but the symptoms I described were enough for my doc to put me on trt at 25. He was a powerlifter in his day and I see him at the gym every now and again. So when I see him he likes to hear my progress in the gym which is cool for a doctor.
Cost- well my insurance covers everything with a 15$ co-pay except the hcg. That cost 90$ at his office for 10000ius w/ bac water and syringes.
test at his office for 10cc is also 90$. adex was around 60$ for 8 1mg pills.

He carries the drugs all at his office?

^^ Alot of guys get put on....Doesn't mean they really needed it.... Alot of the symptoms can be from other stuff and not tesosterone levels...

Exactly. And as such, why not rule out low test levels as an option? No different from looking at other causes and sorting through those. It's not as if once you're on, you can never come off, especially if the duration is short - no different than an extremely mild cycle really. You could run a PCT with or without the doc's blessing and be like before you started.

Even if the doc will put on you adex right off the bat, I wouldn't ask for it. I'd wait for bloodwork and run from there. The HCG could go both ways to start right away or not. I just think its a bad idea to start to lower estrogen levels when you don't even how how your body is converting to it from the extra testosterone. Start without it, then add small to see if over-responder if you need it, then bump it up from there with the test to get optimal levels.

I hear you about the adex... on cycles I like to run ancillaries as precautions, but then again we're talking about much higher doses of test and/or whatever else your cycle may include. This is something I'll have to give some more thought to. The doc wants to monitor estrogen levels and make a decision later.

As for HCG, I want to start right away. I don't want to give sperm count a chance to drop... or rather, i'd like to combat that as much as possible up front. I actually need to talk to the doc about HMG vs. HCG.

[Hackamaniac]

Sounds like you've been doing your homework...Good luck in whatever you decide.. I hope it works for you!

[warchild]

yes, he carries test and hcg at his office that i know of. who knows what other good stuff he has there? maybe deca hgh and whinny??

[oscarjones]

If you do decide to self administer I would suggest a complete protocol. I have used TRT in the past and requested FSH administration alongside hCG and T due to the fact that I want kids someday.

[gbrice75]

Sounds like you've been doing your homework...Good luck in whatever you decide.. I hope it works for you!

Thanks for your support brother!

yes, he carries test and hcg at his office that i know of. who knows what other good stuff he has there? maybe deca hgh and whinny??

If you do decide to self administer I would suggest a complete protocol. I have used TRT in the past and requested FSH administration alongside hCG and T due to the fact that I want kids someday.

Wouldn't HMG cover this? HMG + HCG would be a pretty nice protocol, no?

[oscarjones]

^Yes, exactly hCG + HMG would be ideal.

[anon77]

I will definitely be asking my clinic for a prescription now. With leftovers I can finally give blasting a shot. I doubt a chain clinic will do that though.

[gbrice75]

^Yes, exactly hCG + HMG would be ideal.

Thanks for the clarification.

I will definitely be asking my clinic for a prescription now. With leftovers I can finally give blasting a shot. I doubt a chain clinic will do that though.

If your main reason for getting on TRT is to have leftovers with which to blast... I'd rethink it if I were you.

[anon77]

Thanks for the clarification.



If your main reason for getting on TRT is to have leftovers with which to blast... I'd rethink it if I were you.

No. I've been on TRT all summer. The only reason I never cycled was due to fear of needles. Now that I've overcome that I'd like to do a cycle.

[zaggahamma]

havent heard many if any big results (from blasts) from those going from trt to just higher doses of test