Do you believe one can control one's environment through metaphysical processes?

[pawn master]

I believe in karma which is a state of mind.

[basketballfan22]

If luck exists than there is no free will because those set of circumstances were always meant to happen, which meant all your actions throughout your life had precisely guided you to that point.

So no, having a tattoo to ward off evil demons is about as ludicrous as believing in Santa Clause or God. But that's just my opinion.

The only thing that exists in the world approximating "luck" or "bad luck" is probability. If there is a lightening storm and I walk out into a open field and head under a tree with a metal sheet, the odds of me getting hit by lightening are greatly increased. However if I simply walk out into a open field with none of that, there is still a chance I will get hit by lightening regardless, simply by exposing myself a situation where lightening strikes occur. Of course if I stay inside, short of lightening hitting the house and causing a fire, im pretty much safe.

Free will, now you have got me started. This may sound completely insane (especially for religious people); but at the most fundamental level, I don't believe free will exists. At the subatomic level, events occur randomly; from this, I believe life is actually indeterministic. However from this indeterminism, arrises determinism; therefore I believe that everything at a macro-level has already been determined. There are SO many factors involved that it is essentially impossible to compute, and everything that has ever happened to any particle throughout the Universe's history has some influence on future events. The concept of free-will is entirely different from both indeterminism and determinism.

The idea that determinism can come from indeterminism is not so bizarre, however. Think of radioactive decay. Most of us are familiar with the idea of half-life. The half-life of many radioactive elements is known; yet we can never calculate when a single atom will decay. We know when half of the atoms will decay, but never any individual one due to the random nature. A GREAT book that I recommend anyone read is 50 philosophy ideas you really need to know by Ben Dupré. It is an amazing and very accessible introduction to the major concepts of philosophy.

[Flagg]

Free will, now you have got me started. This may sound completely insane (especially for religious people); but at the most fundamental level, I don't believe free will exists. At the subatomic level, events occur randomly; from this, I believe life is actually indeterministic. However from this indeterminism, arrises determinism; therefore I believe that everything at a macro-level has already determined. There are SO many factors involved that it is essentially impossible to compute, and everything that has ever happened to any particle throughout the Universe's history has some influence on future events. The concept of free-will is entirely different from both indeterminism and determinism.

The idea that determinism can come from indeterminism is not so bizarre, however. Think of radioactive decay. Most of us are familiar with the idea of half-lives. The half-life of many radioactive elements is known; yet we can never calculate when a single atom will decay. We know when half of the atoms will decay, but never any individual one due to the random nature. A GREAT book that I recommend anyone read is 50 philosophical ideas you really need to know by Ben Dupré. It is an amazing and very accessible introduction to the major concepts of philosophy.

Of course there is. Take hormones. They have massive impacts on people, people will react differently to a lot of situations based on their hormone levels. To that degree we are driven by a hybrid of emotions, primal instinct and indoctrinated societal norms. There are exceptions, if someone has a gun pointed at your face and asks for your wallet, 99% of people will adhere, because survival instincts kick in. Now is that free will? If you decide you wont give your wallet, you are taking a enormous gamble that your life is not about to become forfeight, in which case you will lose your life and wallet.

People can become addicted to substances, and it becomes hard for that person to get rid of that albatross hanging around their neck. Some people will have a harder time than others, but arguably, is free will missing again, because of the affect said substance is having on that persons state of mind?

Back to the whole thing with luck, it's like winning the lottery. The person with the winning numbers was just in the right place in the right time (with lucky dips) or the numbers they consistantly use, came around. I mean the odds of your numbers appearing are far higher than doing lucky dips each week, its simply a case of you being alive when your numbers finally DO show.

[SexySweetheart]

not sure what to believe. I've no personal experience with anything paranormal or metaphysical, but that doesn't mean it isn't out there. When I was a kid, I was fascinated by the idea of séances. Neighbor lady down the street belonged to a coven, and held a few séances. I was trying to be serious, but some of the others just wanted to joke around.

But.... the older I get, and the longer I go without any direct first hand experience, the less likely it seems there is anything paranormal or metaphysical....



so let me get this straight. you burn some herbs and it changes your energy?

....shit! we were doing that back in highschool!!

lol
well like most things- if you dont have faith in it, you wont believe it and you will subconsciously look for affirmations to confirm your belief or dis belief for that matter. I think prayer voodoo good luck charms smudging etc all kinda boil down to a person needing something out side of them self to gather strength from~ and if it gives them strength or comfort with out putting others down or hindering others joy ... its a good thing

[basketballfan22]

Of course there is. Take hormones. They have massive impacts on people, people will react differently to a lot of situations based on their hormone levels. To that degree we are driven by a hybrid of emotions, primal instinct and indoctrinated societal norms. There are exceptions, if someone has a gun pointed at your face and asks for your wallet, 99% of people will adhere, because survival instincts kick in. Now is that free will? If you decide you wont give your wallet, you are taking a enormous gamble that your life is not about to become forfeight, in which case you will lose your life and wallet.

People can become addicted to substances, and it becomes hard for that person to get rid of that albatross hanging around their neck. Some people will have a harder time than others, but arguably, is free will missing again, because of the affect said substance is having on that persons state of mind?

Back to the whole thing with luck, it's like winning the lottery. The person with the winning numbers was just in the right place in the right time (with lucky dips) or the numbers they consistantly use, came around. I mean the odds of your numbers appearing are far higher than doing lucky dips each week, its simply a case of you being alive when your numbers finally DO show.

God, I wish we can communicate in-person because it will take too much time to type all of my ideas. You THINK you are acting on free will, but in reality you are not. Because of the extremely complex nature, it appears that you are acting on your own fruition. Your issue with this is widely held, and the points you bring up are ones that most bring up. Two years ago, I just assumed free will existed without any thought. After taking several philosophy courses, reading books, and thinking about it for hours on end in university, I no longer believe in free will. The best recommendation I can make is to read several books on this. You can start with the book I mentioned; otherwise read up on the Internet about the concept of free will and alternative concepts like indeterminism. You seem very intelligent Flagg, so I know I don't need to caution you to have an open mind. Many people don't like some concepts of physics or philosophy because they are stubbornly set in their beliefs. The people that I have talked to on this issue that refuse to accept this tend to do it for the wrong reasons.

[basketballfan22]

I will add that there are many major implications of this that many don't want to accept either. If the Universe if deterministic or indeterministic, then evil people like Hitler never really had a choice in their actions. They were sort of dealt a bad hand. Is it then justifiable to punish these people? God, I love philosophy.

[--->>405<<---]

God, I wish we can communicate in-person because it will take too much time to type all of my ideas. You THINK you are acting on free will, but in reality you are not. Because of the extremely complex nature, it appears that you are acting on your own fruition. Your issue with this is widely held, and the points you bring up are ones that most bring up. Two years ago, I just assumed free will existed without any thought. After taking several philosophy courses, reading books, and thinking about it for hours on end in university, I no longer believe in free will. The best recommendation I can make is to read several books on this. You can start with the book I mentioned; otherwise read up on the Internet about the concept of free will and alternative concepts like indeterminism. You seem very intelligent Flagg, so I know I don't need to caution you to have an open mind. Many people don't like some concepts of physics or philosophy because they are stubbornly set in their beliefs. The people that I have talked to on this issue that refuse to accept this tend to do it for the wrong reasons.

are people who need to be cautioned to have an open mind unintelligent??

is someone who is grounded in their beliefs also unintelligent?

what would be an example of a "wrong reason" not to accept ur position on free will??

by saying this are you implying that your reason to not believe in free will is the correct one and everyone else is incorrect?

just because you consider the notion of not having free will something worth "opening your mind" to evaluate does not make it so.

what do you think?

[basketballfan22]

Well first I want to apologize to Flagg if he interpreted that post as my saying he is unintelligent. I can see where you interpreted that post in a negative way.

As far as closed-minded being synonymous with unintelligent, I do believe they are very similar. The most intelligent people are the ones that keep an open mind that way they can allow new thoughts and beliefs in. Science is based entirely on this fact.

Being grounded is slightly different, but I believe being closed-minded and grounded are similar. It depends on your definition of "grounded." Does grounded mean a refusal to accept any other belief or idea regardless of any evidence presented? If so, then grounded and closed-minded are essentially equal.

I do believe my stance is correct; hence why I believe it, lol. That is true for everyone though. Why would anyone believe something they don't actually think is correct? I think that contradicts the very definition of belief.

I always recommend thinking about ideas that you may not immediately believe in. Whether or not you change your stance on the idea is different. I think open-mindedness is always something that should be looked positively on.

[--->>405<<---]

i will agree with you that there are a lot of close-minded and unintelligent people out there. of course because someone is not willing to consider something that is "out-of-the-box" thinking does not necessarily make them unintelligent. they could just be close minded about that particular situation.

i think we both know what subject we're dancing around with here. religion or better (IMO) Christianity and Non-Christian Science will probably never be remedied and i will give you the best reason i have as to why. this is also the reason i am able to sleep at night when scientists who are so sure of their science have proof that contradicts the things God has said. try not to glaze over here and be open-minded here () when considering the following:

1 Corinthians 1:21: "Since God in his wisdom saw to it that the world would never know him through human wisdom, he has used our foolish preaching to save those who believe."

now from my perspective consider what this scripture is saying. God who is the smartest son of a gun in the universe purposed when he created the universe that we would NOT KNOW HIM through our own wisdom (Science). He also has used our "foolish preaching" (sarcasm) to save those who believe.

now lets just assume this is true (because i believe it is), could u (with your intelligent open mind ) understand why the fact that your science cannot be remedied with my religion and im ok with it?? would this be a plausible enuff explanation to you as to why i might still maintain my faith in the face of scientific evidence that "proves" otherwise..???

[basketballfan22]

i will agree with you that there are a lot of close-minded and unintelligent people out there. of course because someone is not willing to consider something that is "out-of-the-box" thinking does not necessarily make them unintelligent. they could just be close minded about that particular situation.

i think we both know what subject we're dancing around with here. religion or better (IMO) Christianity and Non-Christian Science will probably never be remedied and i will give you the best reason i have as to why. this is also the reason i am able to sleep at night when scientists who are so sure of their science have proof that contradicts the things God has said. try not to glaze over here and be open-minded here () when considering the following:


now from my perspective consider what this scripture is saying. God who is the smartest son of a gun in the universe purposed when he created the universe that we would NOT KNOW HIM through our own wisdom (Science). He also has used our "foolish preaching" (sarcasm) to save those who believe.

now lets just assume this is true (because i believe it is), could u (with your intelligent open mind ) understand why the fact that your science cannot be remedied with my religion and im ok with it?? would this be a plausible enuff explanation to you as to why i might still maintain my faith in the face of scientific evidence that "proves" otherwise..???

LMAO! Using my words against me are you?!?

I just sent you a private message 405 talking about this. I also think we are operating on different definitions of closed-mindedness because I think we agree on most of the same concepts. For me open-mindedness is merely the willingness to think about new things with as little bias as possible. If you stick to your original stance, then you are still open-minded. There are also silly topics like the unwillingness to try new foods that can be labeled closed-minded. I think in that instance it stems more from an irrational fear than actual unintelligence.

I don't want to "convert" you to atheism (and I am sure I couldn't even if I wanted to), lol. The logic you provided is one that is common with religious people. I understand why science will NEVER convince you that God doesn't exist, and I understand why you are okay with it. I am okay with it too. Now can I turn the tables and ask you the same question? Can you understand why I am so supportive of science, and why I am not a fan of accepting too many unfounded assumptions?

On a lighter note, you missed out on the Seinfeld quotes between austinite and me in one of Times's other threads.

[--->>405<<---]

On a lighter note, you missed out on the Seinfeld quotes between austinite and me in one of Times's other threads.

dang it! ill try to find them..

did u catch my you tube post in response to austins statement: "but i dont wanna be a cowboy!??" LOL

will chek pm..

[MajorPectorial]

I for sure think it's possible....have u ever been thinkin about a tv shows episode only to see that episode come on "out of nowhere" later that day or week? OOOORR been singing a song in ur head and the person next to u starts singing it aloud? Or when u have a topic or word....like winnebago....somethin completely not common and it starts being used by ppl or hearing it on tv

-Release the Kracken!!!-

Funny. Old best mate of mine. I thought I could hear him doing a song kinda under his breath. So I started singing it messing about. Still remember him look at me like I'd dissected his brain. Asked me wot I was doin. I said well. That was the song u were singing right?. Anyways. Swore blind he was just doing it in his head. I'd swear blind I heard him. We were best mates. Inseperable.. bout. 13-14yo. He's dead now. Died in his sleep after downing load of methadone stuff. Only saw him the night before. Told him how well he was doing. I was devestated. Still think of him. What we used to get up to as tearaways. Some real dumb fun n mischief. He died day after Xmas (saw him Xmas day), less than 8 hours or so b4. Sad thing is. His older brother died on Xmas day too bout 3-4 years before.
His parents hated us hanging out together. Crept. I never did the heroin route n serious drugs etc.
His parents always asked when I was coming round after. Used to sit there n talk about the things we used to get up to. All the mischief. His kind of swagger n the things they never saw.
Lol. We'd go camping. He'd always put his boxers on the fire. Lol. I mean. Wtf lol. Little things you know?. I'd go mad at him for being rude to his mum n dad. N he'd go mad if I was rude to mine.
Well.
Went off subject there. But.
Rip. N r Barnett
rip my friend.

[basketballfan22]

dang it! ill try to find them..

did u catch my you tube post in response to austins statement: "but i dont wanna be a cowboy!??" LOL

will chek pm..

Yeah, I posted one too. "I don't wanna be a pirate!"

[basketballfan22]

Funny. Old best mate of mine. I thought I could hear him doing a song kinda under his breath. So I started singing it messing about. Still remember him look at me like I'd dissected his brain. Asked me wot I was doin. I said well. That was the song u were singing right?. Anyways. Swore blind he was just doing it in his head. I'd swear blind I heard him. We were best mates. Inseperable.. bout. 13-14yo. He's dead now. Died in his sleep after downing load of methadone stuff. Only saw him the night before. Told him how well he was doing. I was devestated. Still think of him. What we used to get up to as tearaways. Some real dumb fun n mischief. He died day after Xmas (saw him Xmas day), less than 8 hours or so b4. Sad thing is. His older brother died on Xmas day too bout 3-4 years before.
His parents hated us hanging out together. Crept. I never did the heroin route n serious drugs etc.
His parents always asked when I was coming round after. Used to sit there n talk about the things we used to get up to. All the mischief. His kind of swagger n the things they never saw.
Lol. We'd go camping. He'd always put his boxers on the fire. Lol. I mean. Wtf lol. Little things you know?. I'd go mad at him for being rude to his mum n dad. N he'd go mad if I was rude to mine.
Well.
Went off subject there. But.
Rip. N r Barnett
rip my friend.

Jesus, that is intense. Sorry about your friend MajorPectorial.

[Times Roman]

I think being open minded means that one will consider new information, regardless how one feels about it, and once verified and internalized, allow for the possibility that it could change your opinion on the world around you.

This is what I was driving at in our debate last December, 405, is that it appears you keep your beliefs in a closed environment, protected from new information that could change how you feel about the world around you. Being closed minded does not mean a lack of intelligence, as the process of being closed minded could be intentional.

I think that there is one big difference between those that are closed minded, and those that try to keep an open mind, and it all boils down to this...

Those that try to keep an open mind will openly admit that they do not know, and...

Those that do not keep an open mind will openly admit they already know.

The issue I have with the latter part of that phrase, is that it is pretty hard to continue learning and acquiring knowledge if "you already know".

[basketballfan22]

I think being open minded means that one will consider new information, regardless how one feels about it, and once verified and internalized, allow for the possibility that it could change your opinion on the world around you.

This is what I was driving at in our debate last December, 405, is that it appears you keep your beliefs in a closed environment, protected from new information that could change how you feel about the world around you. Being closed minded does not mean a lack of intelligence, as the process of being closed minded could be intentional.

I think that there is one big difference between those that are closed minded, and those that try to keep an open mind, and it all boils down to this...

Those that try to keep an open mind will openly admit that they do not know, and...

Those that do not keep an open mind will openly admit they already know.

The issue I have with the latter part of that phrase, is that it is pretty hard to continue learning and acquiring knowledge if "you already know".

Great post. I agree with essentially everything here.

[--->>405<<---]

I think being open minded means that one will consider new information, regardless how one feels about it, and once verified and internalized, allow for the possibility that it could change your opinion on the world around you.

This is what I was driving at in our debate last December, 405, is that it appears you keep your beliefs in a closed environment, protected from new information that could change how you feel about the world around you. Being closed minded does not mean a lack of intelligence, as the process of being closed minded could be intentional.

I think that there is one big difference between those that are closed minded, and those that try to keep an open mind, and it all boils down to this...

Those that try to keep an open mind will openly admit that they do not know, and...

Those that do not keep an open mind will openly admit they already know.

The issue I have with the latter part of that phrase, is that it is pretty hard to continue learning and acquiring knowledge if "you already know".

i will go along with that in part TR. i think as a science buff questioning everything is engrained in you. i have questioned my faith in the beginning. God has proven Himself evident to me in ways you could never understand. it is because of this revelation i no longer feel the need to "prove" his existence to myself.

my wife does tell me that im a waffle! of course so are u and every other male on this board (except maybe sholva and dsm ) so compartmentalizing everything comes naturally!

[Times Roman]

i will go along with that in part TR. i think as a science buff questioning everything is engrained in you. i have questioned my faith in the beginning. God has proven Himself evident to me in ways you could never understand. it is because of this revelation i no longer feel the need to "prove" his existence to myself.

my wife does tell me that im a waffle! of course so are u and every other male on this board (except maybe sholva and dsm ) so compartmentalizing everything comes naturally!

is there something about me in particular that prevents me from understanding?

if there is something going on at a metaphysical level, we should be able to have a rational look at it, and be able to bring it out in the light of day for all to see?

what I'm hearing is that one can ONLY understand at an emotional level. Why is that? Why do people fear talking about this subject matter at a rational level, where we can analyze and scrutinize? Or is that the point, that it cannot hold up to such scrutiny at the rational level, so when individuals such as myself try to take a look and see what is going on, I quite often hear that "I can't possibly understand"???

[--->>405<<---]

spiritual truths are not evident to all. if they were everyone would believe..

[Flagg]

God, I wish we can communicate in-person because it will take too much time to type all of my ideas. You THINK you are acting on free will, but in reality you are not. Because of the extremely complex nature, it appears that you are acting on your own fruition. Your issue with this is widely held, and the points you bring up are ones that most bring up. Two years ago, I just assumed free will existed without any thought. After taking several philosophy courses, reading books, and thinking about it for hours on end in university, I no longer believe in free will. The best recommendation I can make is to read several books on this. You can start with the book I mentioned; otherwise read up on the Internet about the concept of free will and alternative concepts like indeterminism. You seem very intelligent Flagg, so I know I don't need to caution you to have an open mind. Many people don't like some concepts of physics or philosophy because they are stubbornly set in their beliefs. The people that I have talked to on this issue that refuse to accept this tend to do it for the wrong reasons.

I agree with a lot of what you say and I also understand what you are saying. True freedom in my opinion is anarchy and anarchy is not good. There is a philosophy you should look up, something I think you would enjoy reading, called Absurdism, that there is no right or wrong or good and evil, and peoples actions are ultimately irrelevant because the world carries on ticking along.

If you or I were truly free, we could go out and murder someone with no ramifications, but we dont because it is morally wrong and against the law. I mean, do people think they are free that on a hot day they walk into a shop and decide between having a Sprite or Pepsi? In the Western World we are afforded the luxury of having more choice compared to other places, but does that mean we have more freedoms? Like I said, humans are nothing more than highly advanced, sophisticated animals that are still primarily run by our animal instincts, and you have to ask yourself, is that free thinking or is it just chemical reactions firing in our brain as it attempts to deal with the situation.

Why do we go to the gym? A lot of people say cause we "choose to", well what about the other reasons like vanity or an interest in personal health? Do over weight people "choose" to eat bad food, or is their body at the point where it craves that bad food, so it no longer becomes a choice?

[MajorPectorial]

Jesus, that is intense. Sorry about your friend MajorPectorial.

Ah..was a long long time ago. Weird really. Out of best friends. I've lost around three.

Until the last year I've never had a best friend since around 21. Never thought about it but. The reason?. Who knows?. I go at life alone tho. Still do. I'm never a call my mates n see who's goin out. Or see what they're up to. Maybe I should. Instead of ppl just calling me. Just. If I go out. I know I'll see as many as 20-30 ppl I know anyway so what's the point u know.

But yeah. Makes me cringe when ppl say they've had a hard life. Man. You could shout any horrible thing u can imagine. N I'd be able to relate to it. But then ppl do talk to me I suppose. I'll reason with ppl. Support em. Nothing better than getting someone back on track. I just wish I could a done a better job with my best mates when I was a kid.
But.
If I hadn't gone through everything then. I wouldn't be me now. I wouldn't change a single thing. My life's been a loooonnng lesson. In many ways. Showing many solutions and making me realize u don't have the answer to everything. Not every problem can be solved. Some thongs just are. Its the trying that counts. Its the thought that counts n its the effort u put in to it that makes the difference.

You know. Ppl say u can't experience happiness until u yourself. Are happy.

Personally. I think the best happiness you can ever experience. Is the happiness you feel by making someone ELSE happy...

[Times Roman]

spiritual truths are not evident to all. if they were everyone would believe..

so you are saying truths and spiritual truths are two different things?

[--->>405<<---]

so you are saying truths and spiritual truths are two different things?

well im not going to argue semantics with you but to me spiritual truths and truth is the same thing in the sense spiritual truths are the epitome of TRUTH. there is truth in math and science.

for the purpose of this discussion i believe the answer to your question is YES, spiritual truths and truth are different in the sense i can understand spiritual truths and the unbeliever cannot, but we can both understand simple truth such as what u find in math: 1 + 1 = 2.. that is not to say some more simple spiritual truths may be able to be understood intellectually by the unbeliever, but they will not carry any weight and not "speak" to him as they would me.

spiritual truths require enlightenment from the Lord to be understood fully. this only takes place after conversion, with the exception of what ever enlightenment God deems necessary to cause/enable you to come to faith.

an example could be the scripture i posted above. to me it clearly defines the reason why science and christianity have not been remedied to the unbeliever. what does it say to you??

[John Cluso]

[QUOTE=Times Roman;6589021]This is a serious question, as for thousands of years, humankind has believed that they have the ability of controlling their environment through metaphysical processes.

For example, the use of incantations while performing specific rituals is often believed to have effects on either those performing the rituals or others not present. These incantations and rituals can have either a positive or negative effect on the intended target(s).

Additionally, there are those that believe that certain symbols will either ward off bad luck or attract good luck, such as those tattooed on sailors arms.

There are many more examples, some very simple, like an architect's avoidance of labeling a thirteenth floor in a building.

So I wanted to see your reaction to this thought, and hear what you have to say.

Is it all bullshit? Or is there some legitimacy to this?[/QUOT

Its BS

[Times Roman]

well im not going to argue semantics with you but to me spiritual truths and truth is the same thing in the sense spiritual truths are the epitome of TRUTH. there is truth in math and science.

for the purpose of this discussion i believe the answer to your question is YES, spiritual truths and truth are different in the sense i can understand spiritual truths and the unbeliever cannot, but we can both understand simple truth such as what u find in math: 1 + 1 = 2.. that is not to say some more simple spiritual truths may be able to be understood intellectually by the unbeliever, but they will not carry any weight and not "speak" to him as they would me.

spiritual truths require enlightenment from the Lord to be understood fully. this only takes place after conversion, with the exception of what ever enlightenment God deems necessary to cause/enable you to come to faith.

an example could be the scripture i posted above. to me it clearly defines the reason why science and christianity have not been remedied to the unbeliever. what does it say to you??

the Jesuits, a Christian faith, are very educated and recognize the scientific method,

Society of Jesus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I have known many Jesuits, and I was educated at a Jesuit university (University of San Francisco - a private Christian university). Additionally, many Jesuits actually use the scientific method, and embrace it's findings. This does NOT take away from their faith!! To them, science just adds to the complexity of our world, and is just one facet on the many faces of their god. They have NO PROBLEM embracing both science and religion.

There are a great many famous people of science that are also of faith. For example

Galileo
Copernicus
Kepler
Descartes
Pascal
Isaac Newton
Einstein

All were scientists of one fashion or another, and all were very religious men. I'm sure you've heard of some of these gentlemen?

So I have a hard time believing that one has to have a closed mind to be of faith. Each of these individuals were very open minded and curious about the world around them. Each felt very strongly about both Christianity and Science.

So, to these individuals, science and Christianity HAVE been remedied!?

[austinite]

* Thread Locked *

[--->>405<<---]

the Jesuits, a Christian faith, are very educated and recognize the scientific method,

Society of Jesus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I have known many Jesuits, and I was educated at a Jesuit university (University of San Francisco - a private Christian university). Additionally, many Jesuits actually use the scientific method, and embrace it's findings. This does NOT take away from their faith!! To them, science just adds to the complexity of our world, and is just one facet on the many faces of their god. They have NO PROBLEM embracing both science and religion.

There are a great many famous people of science that are also of faith. For example

Galileo
Copernicus
Kepler
Descartes
Pascal
Isaac Newton
Einstein

All were scientists of one fashion or another, and all were very religious men. I'm sure you've heard of some of these gentlemen?

So I have a hard time believing that one has to have a closed mind to be of faith. Each of these individuals were very open minded and curious about the world around them. Each felt very strongly about both Christianity and Science.

So, to these individuals, science and Christianity HAVE been remedied!?

i think ur having a hard time understanding what im talking about as well! have u been drinking again tonite roman? where did i say u had to be close minded to have faith??

jesuits are catholic. their theology differs from mine. their bible is different than mine. just because they are able to remedy science with their faith doesnt mean anything about my faith. i have not studied their science or their faith. there could be flaws in either or both..

i too have been able to remedy science with my faith. i just have not been able to remedy YOUR science (evolution etc..) with MY FAITH..

personally i feel strongly about my faith and really dont give a damn about science!

id also like to note above i said science and christianity has not been remedied to the UNBELIEVER.. you used a believer (jesuit) to attempt to bolster ur argument?? and u never really addressed my question..

you are incorrectly trying to make me look like i want to just bury my head in the sand and hope science will just go away. this is not the case.

[basketballfan22]

I will add that Einstein was not "really religious" at all. He rejected the title of atheist, but he was far from religious. Also some of the men you named Times were religious, but they were insane and actually pretty twisted (e.g. René Descartes). The men you named also lived in an entirely different time period where the world they lived in did not contain nearly as much knowledge as it does now.