Debating two approaches for my first cycle - Would LOVE input..

[nussnussbaby]

I second this! oh and you should choose option #3 "good f*** urself Mr.Know it all"

Cute.

If you could read I have said all along that I know very little about gear. Which is why I asked about gear.

Do I know more about training and nutrition than you? Yes. Yes I do. Sorry. Post a pic and we can see.

[kelkel]

Cute.

Do I know more about training and nutrition than you? Yes. Yes I do. Sorry. Post a pic and we can see.

Doubtful. And I'm in my avi. I post pics here all the time. Trust me, I wake up more cut than you without trying and don't diet, never do cardio and only train 3 times per week. Almost forgot. I also outweigh you by about 70 lbs.

Nice try.

[nussnussbaby]

And this, ladies and gentlemen, sums everything up nicely.

If you want to disagree with me, by all means, feel free to. If you want to prove to me or anyone else that your training knowledge is superior.. let's see what you looked like back when you were natural.

*And please remember* I'm not the one who wants to debate training methods. I could care less what you guys believe. I'm here to ask a question about gear approaches. A lot of people have wasted a lot of their time here. No one has attempted to answer the actual question.

[kelkel]

Nuss I'm literally twice your age and a TRT-er. And I won my first several shows natural, before you arrogant ass was born.

[nussnussbaby]

Doubtful. And I'm in my avi. I post pics here all the time. Trust me, I wake up more cut than you without trying and don't diet, never do cardio and only train 3 times per week. Almost forgot. I also outweigh you by about 70 lbs.

Nice try.

That post was in response to another poster, sir.

I'm not doubting that you look better for me, and I'll take you for your word on what you just said. 1) If you don't diet, do cardio, or train much.. and look great.. then you probably have superior genetics to me. Congrats. 2) Like I said, I am natural. I don't believe you are. And that's another advantage in our comparative training, isn't it?

Not sure why you're so interested in picking a personal fight with me, however. As a board monitor I thought you might be more interested in spending your time helping people out with gear knowledge.

[--->>405<<---]

[nussnussbaby]

Nuss I'm literally twice your age and a TRT-er. And I won my first several shows natural, before you arrogant ass was born.

That's good. Congrats on winning shows. Congrats on having more time to build your physique than me. I'm not sure what a TRT-er. But I'm also not sure what any of that personal knowledge about you has to do with anything.

I've stated about 50 times now that I'm not interested in discussing training or nutrition. I'm here wondering which gear approach would be superior to another. Not sure why you want to waste time picking a personal fight with a stranger on the internet..

[nussnussbaby]

Not sure why you're so interested in spending time picking a personal fight with a stranger on the internet either.

Said many times - I don't want to argue about training or diet. you like your stuff. I like mine. I'm here to learn about what I don't know about.. and what some of you here do: a proper approach to my first cycle.

[kelkel]

That post was in response to another poster, sir.

I'm not doubting that you look better for me, and I'll take you for your word on what you just said. 1) If you don't diet, do cardio, or train much.. and look great.. then you probably have superior genetics to me. Congrats. 2) Like I said, I am natural. I don't believe you are. And that's another advantage in our comparative training, isn't it?

Not sure why you're so interested in picking a personal fight with me, however. As a board monitor I thought you might be more interested in spending your time helping people out with gear knowledge.

I can help who I choose. Improve your attitude as multiple members have referenced and I'll bet you'll get your help. Good luck.

[nussnussbaby]

I can help who I choose. Improve your attitude as multiple members have referenced and I'll bet you'll get your help. Good luck.

I'm sorry, but I simply believe in my training and nutrition methods. That's probably not going to change. Maybe you'll like yours forever too. It's irrelevant anyways.

My interest is in your thoughts relating to my question, about approaches to gear.

...I feel as though I came to a classroom to learn about algebra, and everyone in class (including the teachers) just wants to tell me how bad my French is. Odd.

[nussnussbaby]

Wow, I have read this a couple of time and I dont know what the OP is asking. Seems to concerned about a certain number % of body fat. If you want to run around and brag about your body fat then no one hear really will care.
If you are asking what type of AAS to run to get to a certain BF I dont think you will get much of a response.
If you are happy with working out one hour a week and asking what "gear" you should run, I dont think you will get anyone to answer you.
If you want real answers here I think you have them from people that know there stuff. IMHO you are more concerned about what your % of BF is other than your health.
Are you just stuck on weight and BF numbers? I know a lot of people that look better at a higher weight and bf than a lower bf and weight . . . remember its ONLY A NUMBER.

My only question is why are you thinking about doing a cycle at all. If that pic is you and your are happy with your body why use gear at all?

Let me repeat it for the sixth or seventh time. I am asking which approach to my first cycle would be more beneficial towards reaching my ultimate goal - - 170lbs and as close to six%bf as possible?
-Should I cut to 170 and recomp cycle?
-Or should I cut to 165 and gain 5lbs on the cycle.

~and not one person has given a single response to that.

I'm not concerned about bf% beyond using it as a measuring stick towards reaching my goal. And I'm certainly not bragging about it - - people told me it was impossible to reach/maintain; I simply told them that I did in fact reach and maintain it.

And I'm the same as most here. I'd like to look better than I do in that picture. I think I look great for a natural in it. I'd like to look better as a non-natural. Big deal.

[tice1212]

nuss I think ur just turning your wheels here. no one going to help you. maybe it would be smart to go troll another forum. here's a couple of tips: 1. don't as for people opinions then shot it down right away. 2: don't act like a know it all. 3. don't be so defensives

[kapper]

If you want to exceed your genetic limit then why are you cutting weight? Why dont you add lean mass your already at a low body fat.. Plus if your diet is world class you shouldnt need gear for your goals. If you have read all the stickies then tell us your cycle outlay???

[Euroholic]

Hello all,

***Background Information - skip if not interested***: I'm 26 years old. I've been a member of the board for 2 or 3 months now, I've read all the stickies, and I've gathered a lot of important information here through threads I've started, and through a lot of outside research as well. I've been weight training for sports since I was about 13, and in serious physique training for about the last year and a half (current one-rep max's: bench press-450lbs; squat-490lbs; deadlift-480lbs; chin-up-+115lbs). I believe my training and nutrition programs are the absolute best on the planet, and my discipline, consistency and intensity with both is first-rate.

***Important Information***: I'm 5'7". The picture I've included is 3 or so months old, me at about 175-180lbs, 10-ish%bf. I've been bulking since then ~ focusing on strength and muscle gains ~ and I'm now at about 185-190lbs, 15-ish%bf. My ultimate goal is to be about 170lbs and as close to 6%bf as possible (please don't debate me on that; it's what I prefer). There are two approaches I am considering..

#1)
I'll slow-cut (about 1lb/wk) down to about 165 - - hoping to maintain strength, and as much muscle mass as possible. Then from there I'll begin this site's recommended first cycle - - hoping to gain about 5lbs of almost pure muscle.

#2)
I'll slow-cut (about 1lb/wk) down to about 170 - - hoping to maintain strength, and as much muscle mass as possible. Then from there I'll begin this site's recommended first cycle - - hoping to maintain overall weight (170lbs) while transforming a significant amount body fat into muscle mass (i.e. a re-comp cycle).



**The TDEE (Total Daily Energy Expenditure ~ calorie total) equation I use is based on lean body mass, so even though total weight would remain the same in the second approach, calories would be increased to support additional muscle mass.



So, basically, I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts on which approach would be best to go with (or if there's another I'm not considering that would be even better).

Thank you all very much, in advance, for any input!

Okay dorian yates

[Igifuno]

Let me repeat it for the sixth or seventh time. I am asking which approach to my first cycle would be more beneficial towards reaching my ultimate goal - - 170lbs and as close to six%bf as possible?
-Should I cut to 170 and recomp cycle?
-Or should I cut to 165 and gain 5lbs on the cycle.

~and not one person has given a single response to that.

I'm not concerned about bf% beyond using it as a measuring stick towards reaching my goal. And I'm certainly not bragging about it - - people told me it was impossible to reach/maintain; I simply told them that I did in fact reach and maintain it.

And I'm the same as most here. I'd like to look better than I do in that picture. I think I look great for a natural in it. I'd like to look better as a non-natural. Big deal.

So you're looking at two different options with respect to reaching your goal that involve a 5lb variance on where to start at??? 165 vs. 170? If I'm understanding you right man.. pick one. I wake up 5lbs lighter than when I go to sleep anyway.

Your ultimate goal is to weigh 170lbs at 6%... okay fine. You're an expert in training technique and nutrition yes? So prime and start your beginner cycle and you're on your way.

[Euroholic]

Do you guys think the op is sikbeard? One meal a day one hour a week?

[nussnussbaby]

nuss I think ur just turning your wheels here. no one going to help you. maybe it would be smart to go troll another forum. here's a couple of tips: 1. don't as for people opinions then shot it down right away. 2: don't act like a know it all. 3. don't be so defensives

1) I haven't gotten a single opinion about what I asked, sir. If I got one about that ~ knowing very little about it ~ I certainly wouldn't "shoot it down".

2) And I'm sorry, but I know a lot about training and nutrition. I'm sorry. I regularly speak with one of the world's foremost experts about it. Would you like me to lie and say that I don't? Look up Martin Berkman/leangains/IF/etc.

3) Defensive? I've stated, I feel like a thousand times, that I've no interest in arguing about training methods. I'd simply like to learn more about what I don't know ~ gear.

[gold43]

If your genetics are so good, then why do you have that terrible receding hair line?? Huh??

[nussnussbaby]

If you want to exceed your genetic limit then why are you cutting weight? Why dont you add lean mass your already at a low body fat.. Plus if your diet is world class you shouldnt need gear for your goals. If you have read all the stickies then tell us your cycle outlay???

Again.. I'm not sure why you want to waste your precious time learning about my personal goals (as opposed to discussing the questions asked), but sure..

1) I prefer the Steve Reeve physique to that of the more modern body-builder. At my height, much bigger than 170lbs looks a little bulky. So I'm really aiming to just maximize myself at that weight. And I'm just plain not naturally gifted enough to approach six%bf at 170lbs. I've gotten there at 155lbs. But at 170 the best I could do w/o gear was 8 or so.

2) Do you really want me to go and copy and paste the recommended beginner's cycle sticky that we've all seen?

[nussnussbaby]

Okay dorian yates

Dorian didn't have the knowledge that modern science has given me. **EDIT** "given us"

[Euroholic]

Dorian didn't have the knowledge that modern science has given me.

Now im convinced your a troll.

[kelkel]

Dorian didn't have the knowledge that modern science has given me.

Just when I thought you might be turning a corner here you go and make that comparison......

[Euroholic]

No one talks about dy like that. ADMIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Get in here!!!!!!!

[nussnussbaby]

So you're looking at two different options with respect to reaching your goal that involve a 5lb variance on where to start at??? 165 vs. 170? If I'm understanding you right man.. pick one. I wake up 5lbs lighter than when I go to sleep anyway.

Your ultimate goal is to weigh 170lbs at 6%... okay fine. You're an expert in training technique and nutrition yes? So prime and start your beginner cycle and you're on your way.

Hey!!! Thank you very much for addressing the question!!! My weight varies about 5lbs from morning to night as well. When weighing in in the AM I just add 2.5lbs.

I believe I know a good deal about training and nutrition. But I know very little about gear compared to someone like you. And I'd really like to hear which approach you think is best.

[nussnussbaby]

No one talks about dy like that. ADMIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Get in here!!!!!!!

In all seriousness.. scientific knowledge has advanced so much since the days of Arnold. It's just a fact. It advances. In my personal opinion, far too many people today are still following the outdated knowledge of yesteryear.

[nussnussbaby]

Just when I thought you might be turning a corner here you go and make that comparison......

LOL. I guess that's a big no-no. Dude was obviously very genetically gifted and worked harder than one-hundred average BB'ers combined. But imagine what he'd look like with today's knowledge??

[nussnussbaby]

Now im convinced your a troll.

Or given you, lol. It's not really even debatable that we know much more now than we did then, is it?

[Euroholic]

Dorian is probbaly the smartest body builder ever

[kapper]

Again.. I'm not sure why you want to waste your precious time learning about my personal goals (as opposed to discussing the questions asked), but sure..

1) I prefer the Steve Reeve physique to that of the more modern body-builder. At my height, much bigger than 170lbs looks a little bulky. So I'm really aiming to just maximize myself at that weight. And I'm just plain not naturally gifted enough to approach six%bf at 170lbs. I've gotten there at 155lbs. But at 170 the best I could do w/o gear was 8 or so.

2) Do you really want me to go and copy and paste the recommended beginner's cycle sticky that we've all seen?

Ok i cant see why you needed to come off so arrogant in ur first paragraph, i simply asked why are you cutting (when already lean enough to cycle) if your goal is to push past your genetic limits

i think you can reach your goal without the help of hormones, i think the health risks of cycling are un-necessary for the goal your trying to achieve

Yeh u can cut and paste the beginner cycle if you like but that doesnt mean you understand the fundamentals of each compound/AI/HCG/serm that you would be using.

[nussnussbaby]

If your genetics are so good, then why do you have that terrible receding hair line?? Huh??

1) Again, post a picture friend.

2) I never said I was genetically gifted. I in fact stated the exact opposite.

[Euroholic]

If your so good op then i want to see you beating phill this year

[Igifuno]

I think that if your main goal revolves around fat loss and maintaining your exising weight, gear may not be necessary. You could argue, however, that fat loss is more easily attained with higher test levels, but either way, your diet and training regimine (which you don't need any advice on) is where your focus should lie.

[nussnussbaby]

Ok i cant see why you needed to come off so arrogant in ur first paragraph, i simply asked why are you cutting (when already lean enough to cycle) if your goal is to push past your genetic limits

i think you can reach your goal without the help of hormones, i think the health risks of cycling are un-necessary for the goal your trying to achieve

Yeh u can cut and paste the beginner cycle if you like but that doesnt mean you understand the fundamentals of each compound/AI/HCG/serm that you would be using.

1) No. Certainly not. I don't understand the fundamentals of the compounds. Not like you or anyone with your experience. It's why I'm here to learn.

2) I tried reaching my goal naturally. Couldn't quite do it. Like I said, I'm a former fat kid and the genetics just aren't quite there. Probably the reason a lot of us are here.

3) Sorry.

[nussnussbaby]

I think that if your main goal revolves around fat loss and maintaining your exising weight, gear may not be necessary. You could argue, however, that fat loss is more easily attained with higher test levels, but either way, your diet and training regimine (which you don't need any advice on) is where your focus should lie.

It's very, very, very hard to get to 170lbs with almost 160lbs lean body mass man.

Like I said, I've tried reaching my goals naturally. Couldn't quite do it. Believe very strongly still in the methods I use/d. It just requires a bit more than I have genetically to reach my goal. And I don't think that makes me an outsider here.

[nussnussbaby]

If your so good op then i want to see you beating phill this year

I guarantee you Phill and his coaches have read all that I've read a hundred times over. Does he train like me? Of course not. Gear minimizes recovery time and increases the benefit of frequent, prolonged training sessions. Am I going to increase my training frequency while I'm on gear?? Of course I am! Sort of a no-brainer, isn't it?

[kapper]

Its only ur actions that are making u an outsider atm, like every one has said sub 10% is hard to maintain for any body. Yes you have done it in the past at a lower weight but obviously as u got heavier ur muscle mass hasnt as such. Why dont u bulk for awhile and sacrifice to a higher body fat. Then maintain that wait thru your pct and a few months after that begin a slow cut (to around 170) maintaining maximum muscle mass/strength.

I suggest u make a cycle outlay and discuss the reasoning for why u chose each compound (test, ai, hcg, serms)

[Igifuno]

It's very, very, very hard to get to 170lbs with almost 160lbs lean body mass man.

Like I said, I've tried reaching my goals naturally. Couldn't quite do it. Believe very strongly still in the methods I use/d. It just requires a bit more than I have genetically to reach my goal. And I don't think that makes me an outsider here.

Not sure I agree.. as you know, meeting goals is a marathon and not a sprint. Post your diet and training routine.

[nussnussbaby]

Someone asked earlier about my *natural* approach to training. No one seems interested in visiting the site (lean gains dot com). And I'm not going to spend the year it'd to explain all the rhyme, reason and research behind it. But I will spell out the basics of what I do.

*DIET*
-I initially based TDEE off of the Katch-McArdle formula. Then after about a month of strict personal experimentation, I had my exact TDEE. If I am bulking, I consume 1.3xTDEE on workout days, 0.9xTDEE on rest days. If I am maintaining, I consume 1.2xTDEE on workout days, 0.8xTDEE on rest days. If I am cutting, I consume 1.1xTDEE on workout days, 0.9xTDEE on rest days. I consume 1.5g/lb LBM protein every day. 150g carbs on workout days, 50g carbs on rest days. And I fill in my remaining caloric needs with fat (all nutritious food choices, of course). I supplement with multi-vitamins, fish-oil, vitamin-d, calcium, creatine (on 3 months, off 3 months). And while cutting, once I reach single-digit bf, I also supplement with Yohimbine-HCL, L-Tyrosine and Caffeine.
*My "cheats" are now limited to alcoholic beverages. Usually whiskey straight.. but good beer on occasion.

*TRAINING*
-I train 3x/wk in the morning, M,W,F. I train completely fasted w/ the exception of 10g BCAA. My lifts consist of 2 sets of 5-7 reps Deadlift & Weighted Chin-ups, Bench Press or Squats. I rest about 10 minutes in between sets. I increase weight in 5lb increments the next week once max reps have been achieved. I've experimented with a dozen or so different training methods seriously, this was by far the most beneficial in terms of strength/muscle gains, and I've since perfected it to my own personal benefit. Anything more than the aforementioned routine has proven to decrease gains from week-to-week. Then post-lift (or at the same time on rest days) I consume all of my food for the day within 8 hours, usually in 2 or 3 meals, with carbs emphasized earlier, and fat emphasized later.
-On rest days, I usually try to take a 30 or so minute walk to one place or another before ending the fast.

On gear I plan to experiment w/ a six days/wk routine, perhaps adding extra assistance exercises (shoulder presses, calf raises, etc.)

[nussnussbaby]

Not sure I agree.. as you know, meeting goals is a marathon and not a sprint. Post your diet and training routine.

Just did lol.

[nussnussbaby]

Its only ur actions that are making u an outsider atm, like every one has said sub 10% is hard to maintain for any body. Yes you have done it in the past at a lower weight but obviously as u got heavier ur muscle mass hasnt as such. Why dont u bulk for awhile and sacrifice to a higher body fat. Then maintain that wait thru your pct and a few months after that begin a slow cut (to around 170) maintaining maximum muscle mass/strength.

I suggest u make a cycle outlay and discuss the reasoning for why u chose each compound (test, ai, hcg, serms)

1) Not knowing much about the compounds at this point, I'm roughly planning to just go w/ the recommended beginner's cycle. But as I learn more I will adjust that. Perhaps tomorrow I will post a working plan and can begin a back and forth about it (it is getting late!).

2) I've been sitting at 190lbs for about 3 months now. And I'm beginning that slow cut right now. So we're on the exact same page there lol.