Knowledgeable Member
It's just not normal for young males, as it reduces fT but ok different opinions thenOriginally Posted by Mr.BB
Indeed, probably best solution. I have been looking into it, I just wanted to try a shorter-acting DA (piribedil) first. Result was positive, so no reason not to try caber.Well, the solution for prolactin is easy: dostinex
Knowledgeable Member
TE is from Balkan. I don't see E2 that elevated since it's immunoassay. Was aiming to dose test according to E2, really.
Whatever I do, I need to lower SHGB and thyroid first or it could become a problem, do you agree?
Anabolic Member
Agree on the thyroid, zero TSH lol.
SHBG is not that high IMO, will it not lower once you lower thyroid?
I think testosterone its something you can control a lot better, as its what you are injecting. Controlling it through e2 values might not be so easy, a lot of variables can influence e2. From my experience (ok there was AI in the mix as well) e2 values are not very consistent, what I mean is, if I do the same protocol I can get different 2 values for e2.
So in my opinion, I would lower testosterone (and the thyroid) and try to find out what's raising the prolactin.
EDIT: UGL is not helpfull either
Anabolic Member
So, maybe this^^^ answers SHBG. Your level of SHBG is fine, high SHBG (or elevated) is only a problem when is "eating" too much sex hormones, which is clearly not the case.Thyroid hormones are known to increase SHBG by increasing expression of the transcription factor, NF4alpha. On the other hand, sugars and high-glycemic foods are known to decrease hepatic SHBG. They do this because sugar consumption promotes hepatic lipogenesis (fat production) which reduces the availability of NF4alpha. Hence, two important steps we can take to maintain healthful systemic SHBG levels are reduce intake of high-glycemic foods, and monitor thyroid function to ensure optimal thyroid hormone levels.
For the prolactin I only see the microadenoma you just mentioned.
Knowledgeable Member
Yeah, but if I were to have T in the normal eugonadic range then it would become an issue...
My adenoma wasn't found to be secreting as levels were misured at time of diagnosis, and the elevation whilst consistent is still mild. Not enough for a suspect of prolactinoma.
Anabolic Member
Not in my opinion, as long as T and free T were in healthy levels whats the problem of having SHBG at 45,7nmol/l (range 13 to 71nmol/l) ?
HRT Specialist ~ AR-Platinum Elite-Hall of Famer ~ No Source Checks
What's your normal shbg level?
Could your estrogen assay be inaccurate?
Is the iron supp your taking new to you? If so, I believe to much can elevate shbg.
Not that it's impossible but I'd think the adenoma suddenly causing an elevation in prolactin is a stretch. Not impossible, just unlikely. Gotta think about all this more.
-*- NO SOURCE CHECKS -*-
Knowledgeable Member
Checked it multiple times after starting TRT. On nebido I got 45, 66, 45, 40; on TE was 30 in May and now 45.
If it was something like 20 I'm sure I could get by with 50mg biweekly, and still stay in the upper range. With my lipids excellent and hematocrit not moving from there, it shouldn't pose a significant health risk.
Assay for E2 is non sensitive, CLIA I believe. That should overestimate levels. In your experience, are my levels of 55 pg/ml more likely normal than anything?
The iron is new but levels are still low. Stopped a week before draw.
I doubt the adenoma is behind the elevation unless it got big enough to impair DA infusion from hypothalamus above, but I got two MRI done one year apart and showed absolutely no difference, hence I'm more propense to believe the issue neurologic, since the E2 is unlikely to trigger it on its own.
Have you seen the change in cholesterol? From 230 (HDL 50) to 148 (60) in just two months. That means LDL-C went from 170 to 80!
HRT Specialist ~ AR-Platinum Elite-Hall of Famer ~ No Source Checks
That's the issue with non-sensitive estrogen tests. Some guys seem to come pretty close when the two (tests) are run simultaneously and others can be dramatically different. Iron was probably only remote but it crossed my mind.....
I'd be shocked it it related to your adenoma. I did not look at chol. What factored in?
-*- NO SOURCE CHECKS -*-
Knowledgeable Member
Just dropped the AI, everything else unchanged. It's a remarkable improvement imo.
Edit: forgot to say I also added T3 in august.
Last edited by hammerheart; 09-12-2016 at 05:36 PM.
HRT Specialist ~ AR-Platinum Elite-Hall of Famer ~ No Source Checks
Hate the thought of thyroid meds but know it's in my future. My TSH can be pretty erratic but all other numbers are stable.
-*- NO SOURCE CHECKS -*-
Knowledgeable Member
Just a random thought... perhaps I happen to have an unfavourable concentration of estrogen receptors in the hypothalamus/hypophysis?
Maybe even little higher than normal E2 is enough to spike PRL that much? Maybe this explains all the negatives/sides from TRT?
Androgens should upregulate central D2 receptors (through genomic AR activation), but it's like test is doing nothing. No beard growth, body odor, minor hematocrit elevation, etc.
If the E2 is fvcking with the AR, DHT could be somewhat protective (due to stronger binding affinity) and that's why primo restored some functioning. Endogenous DHT though on the high side is probably bound by SHBG, it lacks anabolic potential and also converts into estrogens.
Caber was already mentioned and indeed might be useful be I really want to get at the root of it
Anabolic Member
Dont understand what you mean by this sentence.
Yes, some DHT will bind to globulin, but DHT does not aromatize.
If you lack body hair or beard DHT is what can help, it does not happen overnight you would have to take proviron for a few months, still it is a rather easy "experience".
Knowledgeable Member
It converts to 3-alpha and 3-beta diols by the action of 3-alpha-HSD, and those are agonist at ER-beta, but I have no idea if this is relevant quantitatively-wise.
It's not that I don't have enough, but growth is SLOW, it used to be A LOT faster (ie. normal) when I was on higher test dose, plus AI. Pinning primo also had a noticeable effect.
Last edited by hammerheart; 09-13-2016 at 04:17 AM.
Knowledgeable Member
What about hunger? Not even iatrogenic hyperthyroidism seems to help with it. Seriously, I don't feel anywhere hyper. No high HR, BP, actually more on the lethargic side than hyperactive/insomniac, no hunger, no abnormal sweating, no nothing.
If THAT didn't help with hunger, what could do?
Anabolic Member
you say you want to experience more hunger?
I used to have little to no hunger before TRT hence I loved to starve myself and did intermittent fasting which made hungry by the end of the day so I could eat well. Also when tried keto-carb cycling diet that was amazing thing too, but only 2-3 days in a week during carbups
when started TRT, my hunger skyrocketed during first month and a half, then managed down my E2 and hunger as expected went down significantly, however till this day if I dont get 3000kcal in a day I cannot go to bed and sleep, so my hunger stays elevated still, but not in a cravings way.
since last week Im doing more multiple meals and being less bloated, as big meals before could literally knock me out to sleep or put my head in a dreamland for few hours, but now small meals are like snacks 400-500-600kcal each, and Im always alert and awake, and a;ways slightly hungry between meals. I found any type of carbs will kick my hunger too high, how are you with carbs?
Knowledgeable Member
I don't want more hunger, just some hunger, as I really have NONE. Borborygmi (stomach rumbles) are absent.
My total carb intake is about 250 most of which come from buckwheat. I just love buckwheat. Some fruits and that's it. Protein is about 100-125g, fat the same but mostly from "unhealthy" ones, butter, but also whole eggs every day and some quality olive oil.
I got rid of wheat as it gave me bad craving issues, but I don't experience the same with other carbs, even refined.
The Italian region I'm from produce the best extra-virgin olive oil in the world, yet, I have a butter addiction. Let's blame low dopamine for that.
Last edited by hammerheart; 09-13-2016 at 03:49 AM.
Anabolic Member
100 grams from fat? I would also lose my hunger on that
Hunger effects are more a GH thing (as you know) than androgens. Unfortunnaly I dont know of any bloodtest to check ghrelin serum, the only thing you can do (that I know of) is test its release with GHRP.
Knowledgeable Member
Hunger is a lot more complicated to my understanding... anyway I believe the issue is again, in the hypothalamus... that would also explain absent THIRST100 grams from fat? I would also lose my hunger on that
Hunger effects are more a GH thing (as you know) than androgens. Unfortunnaly I dont know of any bloodtest to check ghrelin serum, the only thing you can do (that I know of) is test its release with GHRP.
Anabolic Member
My point was if you take GHRP2 or 6 and dont have a extreme hunger effect there might be something physiological to it. I have tried GHRP, and believe me ghrelin is quite straight forward...Hunger is a lot more complicated to my understanding... anyway I believe the issue is again, in the hypothalamus... that would also explain absent THIRST
Knowledgeable Member
Noted. Ghrelin acts on the hypothalamus, so if I don't get a noticeable effect the issue might effectively be there.
Anyway "physiological" might not be meaningful in this context. The problem is obviously in the brain, but it's hard to discern anything physiological from neuropsychiatric factors.
Knowledgeable Member
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11048906
Not even on Haldol LOLPRL is elevated moderately by olanzapine (mean change, 1-4 ng/mL), intermediately by haloperidol (mean change, approximately 17 ng/mL), and strongly by risperidone (mean change, 45-80 ng/mL)
Anabolic Member
I wonder if you're lacking some of the vitamins/enzymes and minerals that run in your body producing HCL for digestion and some way something is not chaining up with water distribution so you are not excreting it properly to get thirsty to begin with (broscience late night brainstorm session)
Knowledgeable Member
Well digestion starts in the brain. The hypothalmus actually sends signals to the stomach telling him to prepare for food intake. That's when it starts to secrete HCL and rumble. Honestly digestion feels a lot better now that I'm on T3. AI too made me feel seriously bloated. I can actually feel some acid is being produced, particurly at night.
About vitamins and minerals I'm supplementing almost everything the body needs. However, tests still show borderline low readings.
About lack of thirst... I think it's more related to lethargy. I lack the literal adequacy to describe how I feel, but it's like I'm never fully awake, senses are obfuscated, whether it's taste, odor, sight, hearing, touch, it almost feels "dreamlike", and I go through periods where it gets better or worse. T3 helped a lot with this, and so do DA precursors (tyrosine, levodopa).
Anabolic Member
Man, you have ever tried armodafinil? Half of 150mg pill with some coffee in the early morning kicks life in to colours and in to active gear for me, I can relate exactly how I feel half of the times, nothing helps as well as armodafinil. pm if you wanna talk about it
Were mysterious machines that are out of balance and out of sync with ourselves
Knowledgeable Member
Nope, it was in my wish list though. The issue is... once I've tried it, and it works, what do I do with it? I don't really like the thought of getting dependent from (yet another) meds. Caber also is more affordable than (ar)modafinil, and I cannot get on the both together.
I already know an EU source for armodafinil... are you talking about *********bank.net?
Anabolic Member
well I dont have any dependency on it and it works, maybe it could be good substitute for caber, dont know, but I know it works well and I dont use it everyday, not even a full pill as its damn potent and lasts 12-16h once taken, plus, no sides, just back to old normal self if not taken, at least how I feel on it. I feel somewhat better if I dont take it for few days and instead do some intense cardio and heavy brutal lifting sessions so next day I am just like on it, but sometimes it still comes at me and I am kinda tasteless for life, and that half of a pill does magic of its own in such cases.
However what I am finding interesting is if I took 1day on 1day off half the pill something happens, on the days I dont take it at all, I feel more than half way better vs the days I hadn't taken it for a long time, and then the following day I feel well too and I almost forget to take it cause not feeling the need.
Sending you a PM.
Knowledgeable Member
Heavy artillery (caber) is on its way
Still can't wrap my mind around this. The only valid explanation I came up with is an underlying unbalance between androgen and estradiol receptors in the hypothalamus. Either that or test isn't activating the AR at all. My endo told me in March I might got misbehaving ARs, whose function would be lost after HTPA shutdown. This sounds very odd to me as there is clear evidence of function, but only at supraphysiologial levels.
What if I want to maximize AR agonism? I would need something with stronger binding affinity and androgenic potential than Test. DHT might respond to this call, but that comes from test, lacks anabolic power and aromatizes to E2, and I don't want to deploy AIs. Perhaps a 19-nors like tren, in low concentration might prove useful enough to potently activate the AR, while not messing further with PRL? Or it would be better to antagonize E2 with a synthetic DHT, like Drostanolone, which is also reported to reduce PRL on its own?
Anabolic Member
Still think you are wrong on the DHT aromatization...
Knowledgeable Member
Just phrased badly - I meant DHT comes from test and test aromatizes.
These are random thoughts anyway, don't take them seriously. Brainstorming sometimes might help.
Last edited by hammerheart; 09-15-2016 at 09:06 AM.
Anabolic Member
Well, interesting. I may be in similar/same situation as you are bizzaro. I have literally zero strength increase from 150mg/test over last ~ 25weeks, my test went above normal high level so did my e2, but zero strength, I may say my endurance went down alot too.
I was wondering about 19nors, it would be wise to at least try NPP with low dose trt, your thoughts on NPP?
Knowledgeable Member
Nandrolone aromatizes, might not be helpful for the above purpose. Masteron might offer a safe solution, has low androgen potential but can down-regulate E2 receptors efficiently.
Consider anyway that your E2 levels were also influenced by HCG. Also don't underestimate the fact you already have low HDL and stacking AAS might lower it further.
Knowledgeable Member
On a side note, at least you had no positive strength increase, instead of negative. My endurance got so sh*t the muscles in my arm start burning if only I dare to raise it above shoulders.
Anabolic Member
I am talking about the session of deads with shrugs I did, I used to go 120kg for reps, etc 3 - 4 sets of 10-12 reps before TRT (that was solo deads session to failure once every 2-3 weeks) , now I had struggle 4 weeks ago to pull 3 x 90, last time few days ago 3 sets 60kg each with 5 shrugs at the top 5 reps each, I started with 60, thought need to correct form and go up in weight if traps and back feels like it, and boy after finished first set failing at 5th rep of dead and last shrug, It just took my last breath out of my soul, and I kneed for good 20 seconds before I let go of the bar and said, "NO, 5 reps thats it".
I thought my arms gonna fall off and the earth began to slip from under my feet (I was all dizzy in my head) like after outrunning a mad pitbull... my HCT/RBC is fine, however Im donating from Monday next week every 60 days just in case as I havent ever before in 30 years (also introducing iron supplements again), so since Im on this DIY form of TRT it would only be beneficial as its destine for my RBC to increase over time anyways.
Cardio, I dont know if its because I was used to doing 60 mins sessions almost everyday, and now recently began doing heavier level for 30min tops usually aggressive 20minute elliptical trainer cardio bursts, on non training days which can be 3-5 days a week depends how busy I would be with work and if any physically exhausting long days happen, I dont do gym just cardio before bed... and cardio is getting to be a killer lately, shortness of breath comes in quick, cant seem to keep up the same intensity as before, and I just observe and puf along thinking something is happening, gotta give it lil more wait ... its mystery ...
Knowledgeable Member
No idea man. I don't really have any insight on the causative factors impacting endurance on TRT. Yep, it's mystery.
Besides... you have been only a few months on therapy and might need some more to achieve full benefits.
Don't let my story curb your hopes as I am a total mess and even if we do seem to share some resemblances I'm sure you will do better than me
...
Heck my nipples are pointy tonight.
Anabolic Member
haha I dont try to find similarities, just trying to see how much different situations can get when they seem alike.
Maybe your SHBG is going down thus resulting in higher free-test, thus in some more e2 buildup. watch sides of the nipples if they get little puffy going toward armpits in next few days
Knowledgeable Member
Well SHBG has a very long half life (even weeks) so takes his time to lower, btw the very first side I experience from oestrogen is water retention, and I've lost two lbs this week.
Knowledgeable Member
Water retention is getting through the roof. I've regained those two lbs and stock another two.
It's noticeable everywhere, my face got a distinct saggy look, like I have cellulitis on it lol.
I need to bring levels down.
Knowledgeable Member
When I awoke this morning at 5am to take my thyroid meds ( I return to sleep subsequently lol ) I noticed my nipples were very sensitive and achy (like internal pressure was present), and they have never been so. I also feel overall more lethargic later, and also more depressed, which also is suggestive of E2 issues.
Anabolic Member
are you thinking of getting E2 test done now or just pull "the ammo out" against the symptoms and then retest for E2 after?
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