Why is the Atkins diet not good for BB's?

[temperoath]

Preface :
I dont want to start a big argument. I am by no means an expert in the intricate nutrient and hormonal pathways our bodies utilize. I do know a little though, being a senior in Biological Engineering. I will attempt to simplify some of the processes that happen in a pre and post ketogenic state.
BTW
(Bulking on a ketogenic diet IMO would be a halfhazard way of bulking. I believe not taking advantage of the high-insulin induced spike caused by carbohydrates is wasteful. Also on an above maintnance diet carbs are muscle sparing and dietary protien sparing as well as providing your brain with glucose on which it runs more efficintly that keton bodies.)

Ketogenic diets do appear, after research, to be more muscle sparring that regular calorie reduced diet, as well as breaking down more adipose tissue (fat). Their are 2 distinct reasons for this.

1. On a regular calorie reduced diet your body will use blood glucose (all carbs broken down to this in body) as fuel. When this runs out it will break down glycogen in the liver for more blood glucose. When this runs out it will break down protien (muscle protien) as well as fats for energy. Protien is converted to glucose and enters glycolysis to eventually produce ATP(energy) though not efficiently at all. Fats are converted to AcCOA and enter into the citric acid cycle to make energy. FATS CANNOT BE CONVERETED TO GLUCOSE. ONLY CARBS AND PROTIEN ARE. SO regular calorie reduced dieting causes fat and muscle loss.
NOW in ketosis. You have no large amount of glucose present in your body but you have a lot more dietary fat. When there is little or no glucose your body will use fats and introduce them inefficiently into the CAC. Their will be byproducts called ketone bodies. Your body will eventually "learn" to run off of these ketone bodies only (even your brain). Once in ketosis you will only use fats for fuel (KETONE BODIES) BECAUSE FAT IS THE ONLY WAY TO GET KETONE BODIES AND PROTIEN CANT BE BROKEN DOWN INTO KETONE BODIES. LIKE THEY CAN BE WHEN YOUR BODY IS USING GLUCOSE FOR ENERGY. KETOSIS IS ANTICATABOLIC TO BODY PROTIEN.

2. Ketosis causes more rapid fat loss. Excess ketone bodies in your blood cause ketoacidosis. Which is a raise acidity level in blood. Your body tries to correct this imbalance by washing out your blood (bascically you take more water into your blood and piss it out). SO you are actually pissing out extra calories (KETONE BODIES). Not in excess but some.

No Arguing here bro...i agree with ya....Hows the biological engineering program? Tough? I'm attempting a double major in physical therapy and dietetics...so far so good, but I can feel the heat comming! Good Luck!

[tatertoos]

What exactly is everyone trying to achieve on this thread?
No matter what evidence one side has, we have already seen that the other side does not want to hear it! We are all set in our ways and are not going to change our beliefs from a message board.

Moral of this thread: Believe what you want to believe and use whatever method of dieting that works for you, personally (or, the thousands you advise). Also, don't always believe what you read, see, or hear from the media. Many times studies are jaded by corporations looking to sway the popular opinion to benefit themselves. They don't care about your health, just your money. (Even reputable "news" programs can be abused in situations such as this.)

ie. I just read an article on how a high carb/low-fat/low-protein diet can drastically reduce adipose tissue!!! Right...I personally would like to give this diet a try!!LOL

[SwoleCat]

Very good insight by Umberto, and Tatertoos is totally correct in his post as well.

Stick to what you know works for YOU. If you have yet to find something, then be open-minded and listen to those who know wtf they are talking about. I wish I had this group of guys around me 10 years ago, you bet I do yup!

~SC~

[Umberto]

Temperoath:
I love biology so those classes are enjoyable for me. The engineering classes are a biatch though (Statics, Dynamics, Strengths, Circuits, Thermo, Fluids, ect.) I like them but they are tough. I screwed around alot before my first two years and lost my scholarship, almost disowned by my parents, drank heavily and did some drugs. A combination of God, age, having to work to pay for school and self realization later and im doing very well now. Im very focused. MY ADVICE TO YOU: do the double major, do everything balls out, life is too short not too. You sound like your gonna like studying those areas. Do it all the way. THERES NO SUCH THING AS LEARNING TOO MUCH OR HAVING TOO MANY DEGREES. good luck!


Swolecat:
Man you have an incredible physique. That level of development seems almost unattainable. You look like a superhero. LOL
Anyway man PLEASE give me some advice on cardio:
-What works best for you:
long/short time?, high/low intensity?, morning (empty stomach) /postworkout?,how many time a week? Ive heard so many things my head spins.

[SwoleCat]

If you want pure fat loss, first thing a.m. 45 minutes.........

However, your diet will have to be in order as well to address a positive nitrogen balance and to stave off catabolism. However, for pure lipolysis and quickest results, there is none better.

~SC~

[saboudian]

Actually, what I was contesting with SC was that he ended the discussion without explaining what his thoughts were. I understand it is a buisness for him, and I don't expect him to write down exact personalized meals and training. I was merely expecting a general structure, so he could he present his side of his discussion. To the best of my knowledge, I would think this would be the best approach for SC if you look at what others on the net have done. Look at all the info WSB has put out, and every single PLer would still love to work with Louie . DC is another example, his routine and dieting principles are all over the net by now, Chad even made it as a permanent article on the main page of his web site, and DC has a full load of clients and is turning down people. SC has his own decisions to make on his marketing strategy, but I hate to see him enter a discussion on a forum, and end the arguement the way he did.

I'm pretty tired right now, if I find some time tommorrow, I will discuss my thoughts and experiences with this diet.

[SwoleCat]

Not sure what you mean by not offering "info". I help many a person out "free" w/out referring everyone to my programs. If one has already done some footwork and taken responsibility to research and come up with his/her plan of attack, I am more than willing to offer help. For those who want a fool-proof plan all done FOR them, then you will want to see me. Freedom of choice. PTBYJason just yesterday asked me if I'd be willing to assist a friend of his for 6 months or more purely by my track record and reputation. He wants professional no b.s. advice/help. I was indeed honored, and again it's up to the person as to whether or not he/she wants a critique on something laid out already, or wants a completed product that is done FOR him/her that he/she has to just simply employ.


You must not follow me around at GotFina, here, my own board, Massmonsters, T-mag, truemuscle, Elite, AnaFamily, etc. Those are all locations where I assist, answer questions, and offer insight in a daily basis. Not too sure why you are so hung up on what I do or don't do, but I guess that's just how some things go? I also really do NOT have any concern for what "DC" or anyone else does to gain exposure. They have their ways, I have mine. I've even been in 3 mags already, two on news-stands, and my clients have been in them too, but I've yet to see the other you refer to do anything of the like, nor have I ever seen ONE picture of any of them. Things that make you go hmmmmmmmmm. Some have to offer a ton of "free" things in order to draw attention, some are just able to draw attention.......it's attraction value, and we all differ. So, to each his own, but to suggest I need/should do things as others do, is hilarious when I've built a foundation more solidified than any of these others. (I don't see them having any of their own sites, message boards, tangilble solo locations, etc. I just see them on everyone ELSE's boards). Not my thing, but again to each his own. As far as turning people away, I can only assist so many at once, so I too have to close the doors on consultations once I'm full, and have a list of people coming aboard at different times in the future. I assure you the other "popular people" as they would be called aren't the only ones turning clients away. My gig is a bit different in that I have formed an entire communitiy housed at MY location, and it's growing more and more everyday. In the future, there will be a myriad of aspects that will seperate myself and what I do from others with similar interests.

So far, I'm more than content w/all that I've accomplished, and 2K4 has started off with quite a bang as well.

Regards,
~SC~

[usualsuspect]

Sab do you visit the Diet Section regularly?

If so you would realize Swole has done more than his fair share of offering insightful nutrition advice to our members. Way more than what most people can say they contribute to around here.

~US~

[SwoleCat]

Yeah, I really wish to NOT start anything ridiculously elementary here. Hence me notifying mods to keep an eye on things.

I didn't expect to have to defend myself, so to me it came out of no-where. I was told to not worry about it and let it go, so I'm taking the advice from the powers that be, both Administrative and Mod level.

One love!
~SC~

[alert]

very informative post umberto .. makes me kinda rethink my present diet .. i love lifting weights .. but atm .. wouldn't call myself a bodybuilder(lift twice a week) .. i've been doing alot of muay thai / mma type training as of late .. and really wanna get my weight down( fat of course) .. do you fellas think a atkins style diet in combination with my training and some morning cardio would work well ? i mean i could try it for afew weeks monitoring my bf% aswell as measurements to see how i progress .. perhaps take in some protein(glutemine) before my training to stave off the catabolic effects that normally accompany higher intensity training ?

[Umberto]

The Keto type diets dont work for everyone.
My own empirical data has shown that for me I do better on a little more carbs than Keto suggest. (about 100-150 a day).
When I go about 20g I tend to look flat and feel dehydrated no matter how much water I drink as well lose a little strength, at least the first week.
It just takes some peoples bodies and metabolisms longer to get "used to" this diets. ALSO I dont feel very energetic and healthy on it.
BUT it does work. Just not very tolerable at first.

[Valmont]

The Keto type diets dont work for everyone.
My own empirical data has shown that for me I do better on a little more carbs than Keto suggest. (about 100-150 a day).
When I go about 20g I tend to look flat and feel dehydrated no matter how much water I drink as well lose a little strength, at least the first week.
It just takes some peoples bodies and metabolisms longer to get "used to" this diets. ALSO I dont feel very energetic and healthy on it.
BUT it does work. Just not very tolerable at first.

excellent post, opinions vary.

[Kim2884]

very informative post umberto .. makes me kinda rethink my present diet .. i love lifting weights .. but atm .. wouldn't call myself a bodybuilder(lift twice a week) .. i've been doing alot of muay thai / mma type training as of late .. and really wanna get my weight down( fat of course) .. do you fellas think a atkins style diet in combination with my training and some morning cardio would work well ? i mean i could try it for afew weeks monitoring my bf% aswell as measurements to see how i progress .. perhaps take in some protein(glutemine) before my training to stave off the catabolic effects that normally accompany higher intensity training ?

Why not try lowering your carbs a little at a time instead of going keto cold turkey? Maybe you would benefit from eating less carbs than you eat now, without having to eliminate them completely. Carbs are not all bad and they have their place...post workout, your muscles need them to recover and grow. I just don't see why anyone wouldn't want to utilize that anabolic window.

[Pheedno]

An excellent explaination Umberto

[hybrid]

Excellent read explaining how ketosis burns fat and spares protein. That is probably the best I have ever had it explained. Thanks.

[mapkos]

The more yo read on this thread the more confusing it could get for some. Not a very productive way to share your opinions with others when your having to defend yourself against some ***holes who don't seem to know too much. Keep up the good work SwoleCat!