sorry guys but i have to go to sleep we can continue this tomorrow
strongly support them
Strongly opposed to them
Right to work with out membership
Dont care
Anabolic Member
sorry guys but i have to go to sleep we can continue this tomorrow
Senior Member
Well if you can call 12 1/2 hour shifts in the ER lazy work than I guess I am.Originally Posted by jcstomper
You realize that construction work is done on bids. If those guys spent all day doing nothing the work would never get done. Have you ever put in an 8 hour day in 98 degree weather? You better believe you stand around alot. You have to keep hydrated and not pass out from heat stroke. Maybe we can use baseball as an analogy. Most of the fielders are usually standing around doing nothing but when it's time to field a ball they go to work. Each has a particular skill that is needed at various times. Same goes for cops, firefighters, EMTs, paramedics, etc. They spend a lot of time idle but thet still get paid.
So, who's the lazy*ss the guy who goes to work every day or the one who lies around in bed because their business makes money on the backs of labor. Actually I doubt you are very successful in business if that is your attitude. I have friends who are making close to seven figures and these guys work from morning until late at night 6 or seven days a week. They own very established companies but don't sit around watching the money come in. They are involved in every aspect and are ambitious as hell. Being successful probably has more to do with ambition, self discipline and a strong work ethic than intelligence. I do believe that anyone with average intelligence with those qualities can still make a fortune in this country.
I don't belong to a union and believe most at the top are corrupted by their power as are politicians and corporate executives. I did belong to the International Assoc. of Bridge, Structural and Ornamental Ironworkers in the 80s but the company went bust (fabrication) due largely from lower wages in Canada and the increased use of reinforced concrete. In '89 I strted college and have 2 degrees and both my parents are college grads. I owned a notary business for several years and was a partner in an auto dealership briefly. I became an RN basically for job security and an interest in medicine. I earn up to $71/hr with full benefits. Now that you know my background I will tell you my problem with your position. It is that you are way to broad with your condemnation of working men and woman just because they belong to a union. If managers really would allow the kind of behavior from workers, union or not then they are as much to blame as anyone. There are way too many management types who despise labor and view it as just another expense without regard to the fact that labor is people and people like to be treated with respect and paid fairly. As long as those people exist so will unions.
Tren/sust myself.
Last edited by markas214; 03-19-2004 at 12:22 AM.
Respected Member
Unions, personally I ****ing hate them, they are just not for me. Been there, done that.....would opt not to take a job in order to avoid the BS and baggage that comes with being a union member. I truly believe I am better off in a 'free market' situation. I can understand how not everyone would feel the same way tho.
Anabolic Member
1) Then you have never worked for UPS. I did for one Xmas season, and I'll tell you what, I've never worked as hard before or since. Those guys flat out work their tails off, compete with a government-subsidized US Post Office for shipping parcels, and still are more profitible.
The reason -- UPS has better management than the US Post Office.
2) God should strike you dead for this one . . . Here in Texas, there are no labor unions involved with road construction. Yet, they're always tearing up the highways and taking forever to do it. Geez, they've been working on Central Expressway for the past 25 years that I've been in Dallas, and they are Still Working On It.
3) That's a problem that happens to non-union companies too, and in either case, it happens because of poor management.
Decent managers know when a worker is slacking and have methods to boost that worker's productivity. Lousy managers don't.
So whether a company suceeds or fails is not the fault of the union; it is always 100% always 100% the responsibility of the management.
-Tock
New Member
Well,, it seems that people who have never been in a union hate them<< And people that have been with one support them because they know what its all about . People that are in a Union know boths sides of the fence. People that never was in any only knows the non union side....Thats my opinion as a Union member
Hitter
Member
Well your true colors sure are shinning! You are the one to talk.
And fella. I will be a firefighter the rest of my life. Im actually doing something with my life. I actually work at a place where i give back. its more rewarding then you will ever know.
Settle for less? you say! I have worked my ass off to get where i am, I went to the freaking pentagon durring 9/11 with the TN. task force one, bro. I have done countless hours of training for weapons of mass destruction, Hazordous materials. Im a E.M.T, I have my associates degree in fire science, i could easily be an arson investigator for some high dollar insurance co. or private firm. I have been a single parent raising my son by myself since he was 2 months old .Fella you have no idea about me. So dont go there.
Settle for less naaa.. My standards are well above any you have mentioned.
I never started telling you how you are. i could easily say, you are a self centered closed minded,controlling,passive aggressive,liberal.
As far as your city. trust me, when the tyson fight came to memphis, there was a big hopla over it. Sure it brought some funds in...temporarily. no big deal.
get off your horse bro,and wake up to the real world...no punt intended.
And just remeber the next time you need a public servant. more than likely they will be a union member,they will be one of those who you say "settle for less" but you know what? They will still come for your ass and never think twice about risking theirs to protect yours. People like you are the reason we have unions. Your the type that looks at a firefighter washing his vehicle at the station and go "them lazy azz guys, we pay them to do nothing, im not voting for a 1/2 cent sales tax increase for them a raise" but what you dont realize is that while you are sleeping they are out there working,somewhere,doing something. Some never get to come home.But that is the risk we take,but yet I setlle for less??? Youve got your wires crossed buddy,and you are starting to piss me off, so will not be responding to your ignorance,any more.
Anabolic Member
did you not read the part where i said i agreed there should be unions for firefighter, police, and that type of work? i can see how that would be a great help for keeping the workers in a safe envoirment. im talking about labour unions (meainging carpenters, masons, and that line of work) it has nothing do do with anything your saying. get off my high horse? dude why dont you learn to read, im agreeing with your union, its the others i disagree with.
Anabolic Member
look ill even bump it for ya. maybe you can read it this time before you flip out for nothing
Member
In regards to other unions, i cannot speak of those. I have never been in any other union except my local. On their behalf,if the iron workers,the teamsters,pipe fitters,carpenters,brick layers,hotel workers, teachers, pilots,etc. if their unions are as half as great and rewarding as ours,then yes they need it too.
i will say i must have misunderstood your comment regarding the firefighters,and police..etc. I appologize
Anabolic Member
I actually just spoke to my buddy the union plumber last night, and he filled me on a few ideas.. I remember someone mentioned that if you are union, this means job security.. He said this is true, and i can see how people could take advantage of it, but he insued that lazy muthafukers don't last long in Unions, especially in Detroit.. I'm sure alot of locals are the same way.. The training, and schooling the unions put these tradesmen through are at universities, and by the time they turn journeymen, they have a bachelors in engineering and labor relations.. I can't see it any other way as far working in a trade.. I don't disagree with independent contractors.. Who wouldn't want job security, steady work, and an entire board of bros backing you up, making sure you always have work to do..
Member
very good point!!
Unions and their board members,are some rough fellas. They dont play. You make them look bad,or misrepresent your job,and the local that represents you, Youre pretty much screwed. I dont mean you do what the union wants or your outta here. i mean screwing around on the job and taking advantage of union benefits. They are trying to be appealing tp the public and prove that unions are a good thing. the last thing they want is a bunck of lazy sob's on the job, taking advantage of the unions strength. trust me i also served as the president from 99-02. I have had my share of those come to my office with B.S
Anabolic Member
no problem, like i said we are on the same page with the unions we are talking about. maybe the other unions in your cities are differant but in my city the run everything. there was a expo at the philly convention center and the unions wouldnt even let the vendors put up there own displays, they said it was taking away from union jobs. can you belive that crap? your a vendor going to a trade show and your not even allowed to put up your display, you have to wait till a union worker who doesnt have a clue on how you want it set up do do it for ya. if you try doing it yourself the unions will literally act like a mafia. they will steal your tools, product what ever they can get there hands on just to make sure your life sucks. they will follow you to yoru home, and picket there, then they will follow you to the convention center where you are putting on a display to the public and steal your crap. it was a national disgrace of what the unions did to our flower show, in philly the unions run, and also ruin it for the whole city. they over charge, underwork and do everything else crooked you can think of. ill have to find the link on what they did at the convention center but trust me i think we are all talking about differant things, cause apperantly the unions in philly are completly differant then where all of you live. and if they arent then id have to ask ya what the hells wrong with you to support that type of business
Associate Member
i definatly support the unions. why work harder longer hours for less pay and get treated like **** by your employers. The employers are the ones against unions because it takes power away from them and gives it to the worker. IMO i dont see how neone can be against benifits, pension, medical, dental, more vaction better overtime pay, safer work conditions. It the better choice for u and your family.
Member
I can complain about union laziness (as Ive seen it), but in the end I think they balance against corporate america. What I despise is teh role government plays in teh process. what I mean is that government can force a worker to pay the union even if he doesnt belong to it. this is wrong!
I had to do this myself as a grad student. the grad student body (read all teh arts and english majors) voted to unionize. unfortunately that included engineering. so this meant a few unfortunate facts: even though we had before then negotiating our own deals, now we couldnt do that and couldnt force our departments to increase pay on our own. this also meant that although we didnt want to be union MEMBERS, we could be forced to pay a fee to the union. The difference between Membership dues and mandatory fee? 0.1%.
Plain and simply government should let the unions and business come to their own balance. if you don't want to be in a union, you shouldnt have to pay one cent. at some point the union will lose members such that it has no power and business will take advantage thus driving union memebership up.
in a nutshell...any direct or indirect act of creating a closed shop should be illegal.
Anabolic Member
what would you guys say if your unions fight each other? cause that what they do in my city
http://www.theinternetparty.org/comm...100&page_sort=
http://www.econsult.com/e_news_convention.htm
http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m.../article.jhtml
http://www.post-gazette.com/localnew...onvention6.asp
http://www.philadelphiaweekly.com/ar...asp?ArtID=4800
http://www.usaenews.com/view.php?ID=129
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articl...orld17-ON.html
i think thats enough for you guys right now, if you like i can get more example of how screwed up the unions in this town are
Anabolic Member
I hear ya bro, but i can list a number of instances where independent contractors havn't came thru when they said they would.. We can go all day telling stories.. Please don't bring up crookedness.. haha everyone in my opinion is trying to cut corners, thats life, somethign we all gotta deal with.. Its reassuring someone (the union) is looking out for their bros, making sure guys have a job, making sure there is work to do, and ultimately making sure no one tries to fuk you.. It's imporant in my eyes to have something like that around..
Member
Well bro.. philly is one of the oldest cities in the U.S, its also home to the first organized labor union, and first organized firefighters union,and the first AFL-CIO convention, along with NY NY. Philly unions are traditional. everything there is union. but at the same time I cant say i dont blame them. The vendors new what was ahead of them when they went. And besides,those union workers putting up those displays just made money to feed and supprt their families.
Anabolic Member
we are talking about labour unions here, by that i mean carpenters, tile workers, masons, that sort. id think being that you work the ER that type of union would fall into the catagory of firefighters, police officers and that type of work. that respect i think unions are a good thing. its a safety issue for the employees
seeing that you work in the ER i think the question should be have YOU ever worked a 8 hour day in 98 degree weather? cause i do it every day all summer long, drink plenty of water and unless your a fat POS then youll have no problem. i know how construction gets it work, i get mine the same way and i know plenty of construction owners. You dont have to tell me what i see with my own eyes, when ever i see union workers doing outside work their is usually 8 total and 3 of them busting there azz and the other 5 sitting there chatting it up. oh yeah they sure do love there breaks at 915,12, and 2 the use them to there fullest but they actually take more breaks doing work time.
Yes i work very long days but sorry i wouldnt call them hard, talking on the phone with customers, or other business associates is not what id call hard, yes its stressful sometimes but i consider anything physical to be actual work, everything else i dont consider work. i guess its a matter of opinion. its funny you think my business isnt successful but you have no idea of what it is. my attitude gives you that impression? what the fact that i dont like wasting business costs on lazy workers when i can get it done cheaper,faster somewhere else? if thats not business minded then you have no idea what is.
ahh see my thought were right, you arent business minded, you owned 2 businesses and left them for job security? you obviously had no idea how to run a business if you left either of them to be a RN. not that there is anything wrong with being a RN (my stepmoms one) you sir are definatly a E and not a B or I. if you dont know what im talking about go read "cashflow quandrant" youll see exactly why you think the way you do
Anabolic Member
the unions were fighting over who did what work, and because of that the vendors couldnt even hold the show. the unions decided to hold up every thing possible. look at the example about the electrical socket, the vender had to foot the bill 3 times cause the right person didnt put it in according to what union you talk to.
Anabolic Member
Next time the vendor comes to philly to set up shop, he's gonna have to imply union workers.. Thats pretty cut and dry if you ask me.. The same stuff goes on here, i hear the same stories.. Not as much bitching though, Detroit is pretty much working class - save for the professionals and executives at the big 3.. As far as trade work goes, Independent contractors know whats up, alot of bull**** can be avoided..
Anabolic Member
i dont think you understand. the vendors knew they had to employee the unions, the unions pretty much have the convention center on lock down. the problem was that the unions were fighting each other on who did what work. they were trying to steal work from each other and in the end decided to just shut down the whole show because they couldnt come to a agreement. and because of this the vendors arent coming back to philly. or at least they havent for the last 5 years. they went to differant cities. causing philly to look tourism dollars and publicity. well the did get publicty we were the laughing stock of the nation when this happened
Last edited by jcstomper; 03-19-2004 at 11:42 AM.
Anabolic Member
I am strongly opposed to unions. (I was a member in the past)
There was a time and place for them but that time has passed.
D
Anabolic Member
I re-read my post, I'm sorry i didn't reply the way i wanted... Trust me i read the article.. That's how it goes, i bet someone bitched pretty bad, to make a huge deal like that: a union carpenter taking credit for what a union electrican should of done.. That does happen, everyones got egos ya know.. JC you're a contractor, you know how the trades work, its like someone taking credit for a job you should be doing, of course you would bitch.. After reading all those articles, I don't think the problems lie with the unions in Philly, I think it's more complicated then that IMO..
Anabolic Member
oh yeah i agree with the problem is deeper, its political. the problem is the unions have the politicians in there pocket in this city. and yes i do understand that the people want credit for there work, but at some point people need to swallow some pride. the fact is that the electricans didnt do the work, so they cant take credit for it, they were being greedy and wanted the carpenters to undo the work but still charge, and then have the electricans do the work again. so the job got done 3 times. it goes back to the point i make about unions in general. example: you dont need to hire someone to get the bolt, someone to hold the bolt, someone to tighten it, and someone to say they all did there job right. you can cut that down to a one person job. and unions dont like doing that. its pure business thinking. save money on labour cause you dont need so many people.
another thing i wouldnt bitch if someone was doing my job, it would just make me bid lower next time, or find a way to cut costs so that the next time i got the job and not them. i wouldnt cry about it, id learn from it
Last edited by jcstomper; 03-19-2004 at 12:27 PM.
Member
i have to disagree with that statement.. what has changed that has drastically improved the employee employeer relationship. Its still the same crap wherever you go.
Anabolic Member
I'm not saying you'll literally bitch if you don't land a project..haha.. You'll do exactly what you said, bid lower etc. etc... I see your point, but you can't make a generalization about ALL union bros when something like that happens.. I believe the problem is with politics, and should be dealt with.. If philly is like you described it, that is a gold mine for industry and commercial businesses, and you know what that means - projects everywhere for everyone eventually.. Something should be done.. I'll agree with you on that.
Senior Member
If you read my post you would have seen that I was an iron worker in a fabrication shop. Try welding when it's 98 degrees. The leathers make the temp around your body closer to 120. I also worked in 15 below. I don't know why you are so against peolpe taking breaks as long as the job gets done. Perhaps we should use whips and chains to motivate them and keep them working.
This quote from a previous post by you gave me that impression : "thats why i get to wake up when ever i feel like it, and you have to wake up so you can be to work on time".
I may not be business minded but I do have some good investments. I am quite comfortable in my life and content. You see making money is not the center of everyone's life. For me it's family first. Owning a business takes too much time from my family and I'd rather spend time with my kids than leave them a large inheritence from a father they hardly knew.
Last edited by markas214; 03-19-2004 at 02:42 PM.
Anabolic Member
Seems to me that if the company involved had better management, they would have anticipated this sort of problem, and would have taken steps to avoid these problems. That's what managers are paid to do . . . get things done, and avoid problems.
-Tock
Anabolic Member
sorry i didnt see in your post that you used to be a iron worker, welding in that head is a bitch. i used to do it in High school during the summer lol. we used to able to come in and use the metal shop during summer hours if we cleared it with the teacher during the normal school year. Im not against people taking breaks, infact when i used to work for other people i used to take as many as i could. why not it wasnt my business. but now being on the other side of things i can see how productivity im so important.
before i owned my own business i was a brick forman for 3 years, all day id be outside installing brick of some sort. not houses, but patios, retaining walls and stuff like that. try building a wall with 95 lb blocks and you have 95 pallets of 42 blocks a peice. it gets a little tiring especially with the heat.
now that i own my own business the above is true, i can wake up when ever i feel like it and work when ever. im only self employeed, a true business owner could leave his business for a year and come back and it would be still running just as good, if not better then when he left. there's a big differance there. my business isnt that far yet. id actually like to start up a franchise also cause that is the type of business you can usually do very good with out much imput on your half other then start up money
what kind of investments do you make if you dont mind me asking? you can PM me if you want. alot of people feel there house is a good investment when actually its a liablity on them. a true investment puts money in there pocket every month. that is a true asset. everything else is a liablity
and i agree with the toll it takes on family, thats why i dont have one yet. im only 23 and dont plan on doing any of that type of stuff till at least 26 or so, id like my wife to never work at all, so i wanna make sure everything like that is taken care of before i start to stray from business and onto family life
Anabolic Member
management is key for everything. but its kinda hard when managment is full of corrupt people like we have in this city.
Anabolic Member
Yep.
But it is still Management's job to get things done, union or no union, corrupt or no.
An interesting book is Martin Levitt's "Confessions of a Union Buster." The author used to pull dirty tricks, lies, and etc to undermine unions. He tells the stories of ten companies he worked for, either busting or defeating union elections. Not pretty pictures.
Martin Levitt was also an alcoholic, and things got so bad in his personal life that he wound up in a 12 Step program, and as one of those 12 steps requires the individual to confess and make amends to those he has hurt, one of the things he has done is stop pulling the dirty tricks, and went to work for the AFL-CIO giving them advice on how to get around other union busters.
Amazon probably still has it . . .
--Tock
Respected Member
Somebody's been brianwashed by Rich Dad
In case it wasn't clear in my earlier post, I have been a member of two massive unions. To this day I avoid unions like the plague.....they do nothing for me. They were necesary before the advent of occupational health and safety legislation, nowadays they are irrelevant and just artificially inflate the cost of labour. And IAFF?.....fireman (yes they are overpaid in many areas) are just plain lucky that they have the job they do.
Anabolic Member
ive read other books but yes his do make pretty much sense. The E myth is a great one to start. i have a couple of friend that have met Mr Robert and to go his seminars. From what they tell me he's a very down to earth guy. its very suprising how much of what you read is common sense it just take some people a little harder to belive it. its funny but as i was reading threw a couple of his books i got bored, it was telling me nothing i didnt already know. i new most of the ways that he states to make money. its the legal and tax problems that i had to learn about so instead of continuing reading his books i went and talked to CPA's and Lawyers. Then when i was dont doing that i started reading the same books they read lolSomebody's been brianwashed by Rich Dad
Senior Member
Right now I have a lot of money tied up in my house. I bought it 1 1/2 years ago and value has increased 30%. Of course this could be just another bubble and probably is but I bought at a good price with a lot down from my previous house. I also made some money in the 90's during the bubble and have most of it tied up in retirements accounts, my house and education funds. I basically roll everything over as I don't need the money. My income is enough so that I pay my bills, vacation, drive a '04 and my wife stays home with the kids. As I said taking care of my kids is my number one priority.
Anabolic Member
i completly understand with the family, thats what i want to do. i want my wife (when i get one) to just stay home with the kids.
but from what you just said your only investments are your retirement accounts, and your education funds. your house isnt a investment, it doesnt put money in your pocket is what im trying to say
Senior Member
Money, money, money. I already said money isn't that important to me. I have enough to live as I choose. I do get interest and dividends. It's not enough to retire on but I enjoy my job and I'm willing to work into my sixties. You're right housing is an expense but when you own at least you build some equity and it is a liquid assest.
Anabolic Member
its not a liquid asset just so you know. liquid mean you can go spend it, and you cant, yeah you can take out a equity loan but who's paying the loan? you are. so like i said its not putting any money in your pocket its actually taking money right out of your pocket. anyway, this is getting way off subject if you want to start a investment thread go right ahead.
now if you had a couple of duplex's and had renters pay your equity loans then yes it would be a asset, you can take the tax free equity loans, do what ever you want with them, and the renter would be the ones paying off the loan. do you see the differance between that and taking out a loan on your own property that you foot the bill?
and money is important to ya, you want your family to live well dont ya? just messin with ya. but money no matter what runs the world, it sucks but its life what can ya do?
just a question for ya. do you really wanna work till your sixities or are you joking around?
Last edited by jcstomper; 03-20-2004 at 10:56 AM.
Senior Member
My mom''s 70 and still working as a nurse. I won't work full time but it will keep me busy. Money is important as I do like to live well but not of utmost importance in my life.
Associate Member
i support labor unions
Associate Member
Well Vid...since you dug up this old thread....I too support the unions. I am a member of the elevator constructors union. And if it weren't for the union I wouldn't be making s**t and my benefits would suck. The company I work for keeps whittling away at their non-union managements pay and retirement etc. But they cant touch us. They do this to their loyal college educated employees even though our stock has steadily increased over the years. And the unions misappropriations are a drop in the bucket in comparison to the high end greed that pervades the upper management in corporate america in general!
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