Injection time.
Anabolic Member
Injection time.
~ Vet~ I like Thai Girls
Awsome, now hit that juice boy !!!!!
Mr. Moderation
Excellent post as always MG....I'm glad this thread was educational to all and hope you are doing well.
Your last sentence is quite alarming...after 13 years out of the blue....your PSA was SO high. How often had you been checking?
Anabolic Member
Kale, JP, MG,
Is it possible than to have a bit of an elavated PSA (Still < 4.0) and only have BPH?
Mr. Moderation
Hey Joe....well in my case, I never been as high as 1.0...0.4 was the highest and he said i have bph...but normal? i guess the prostate is supposed to get bigger and in my case it's not even enough to treat? So I'll bump for Kale and mobli or whoever else knows more.Originally Posted by Mighty Joe
~ Vet~ I like Thai Girls
Joe the range is 0.0 to 4.0 mine is usualluy around 3.7 or 3.8, I will ask the Dr later in the week, I have just had another round of blood tests done and I am waiting fro the results. MG will know for sure
Anabolic Member
OK, so if I've read this stuff correctly: It seems that the Docs are looking for a PSA score that is ramping upwards from the last score which suggests that there may be a problem. I'm I correct on that?
OH yeah, and Kale.....Is that the same gal as before in the new Avatar? If so, I gotta plan a trip our your way!
~ Vet~ I like Thai Girls
Yes the ramping is what they look for as one of the major signs. And yes thats my GF. I am meeting a couple of other members in Bangkok in November. You should join us !!!OK, so if I've read this stuff correctly: It seems that the Docs are looking for a PSA score that is ramping upwards from the last score which suggests that there may be a problem. I'm I correct on that?
OH yeah, and Kale.....Is that the same gal as before in the new Avatar? If so, I gotta plan a trip our your way!
Associate Member
Now I see why you're taking testosterone!!!
Associate Member
I'm going to try answering two questions here, one for jpjman and for Mighty Joe.
Yes your PSA can go way up without having cancer. BPH will raise it quite a bit and for men over 50 a PSA of 5.0 is considered within the ballpark. In my case I was plagued by prostate infections for approximately 15 years prior to having cancer. One time my PSA shot up to 10.0 with a prostate infection and scared the crap out of me. I've been going to the VA clinics for the last 7-8 yrs and they checked all of my blood work every six months. (didn't cost me anything) When my PSA would go up to around 6 or 7, they'd Rx me some antibiotics, Septra or Bactrim, (both the same thing just different manufacturers) Cipro will also work.
One thing that sets off alarm bells with the PSA is, if it "doubles" from one test to the next. e.g. if it's 1.5 and six months later it's 3.0 they'll want to run more tests. At that point I'd suggest to the doc to do a "free PSA" test. The free PSA can with some reliability distinguish between a benign problem or a maglignant one and save the trouble of having a biopsy.
~ Vet~ I like Thai Girls
OK guys I need your help, now its my turn to be nervous. I got my PSA test yesterday and its 5.0. Now the reason I am nervous is because it was 3.8 at the end of 2006. I went back through my blood tests and in 2004 it was 2.4. The Dr said its probably because I am just comming off a really heavy cycle, my test levels are still extremmly high at 4300 when the top of the range is 827. What do you guys think ? The Dr says wait for six months and do another test then but I am not so sure.
Anabolic Member
Bro,
First off, remember we are your support staff here!!!!
Secondly, I agree with the Doc! I would come off the gear including TRT and run the DRE/PSA again in 30 days, 60 days & 90 days instead of 6 months!
Your score will move in some direction: either up or down. So lets not panic here. Especially since we already know you have a BPH issue and we also know that the higher Test levels can certainly contribute to that. You are way over the normal testosterone 827 range.
Maybe run the above test schedule by the Doc and see what he thinks & keep us posted. You'll be fine bro!
MJ
Associate Member
Kale,
Now you're getting in my area of expertise. Not that I'm a MD or anything but I've had prostate cancer and a long history of prostate infections with high PSA's. Here's the latest break points for PSA levels for men of different ages:
Table 1 - Suggested upper limits of PSA for different age groups ²
Age (years) Serum PSA (ng/ml)
40 - 49 = 2.0
50 - 59 = 3.0
60 - 69 = 4.0
70 - 79 = 5.5.
My PSA ran from a low of 3.9 to a high of 9.4 from the years 1993 to 2001, at which time I was diagnosed with PCa. Let me se if I can make a chart that will print out on this page to illustrate the fluctuations. Hope it works!
11/93 = 4.1
8/94 = 9.4 (infection)
11/94 = 6.92
11-4-94 biospy, neg.
2/95 = 6.64
5/95 = 6.21
2/96 = 3.9 (took antibiotics)
2/97 = 4.12
6/02 = 4.93
8/02 = 5.6
10/02 = 4.3
9/01 = 5.2
12/01 = 12.7 (cancer)
12/26/01 = 9.3 (took antibiotics)
A couple points to remember: A digital exam will raise your PSA significantly; having sex within 48 hours of taking the PSA test will raise it; strenuous physical exercise like weight lifting will raise it.
I don't know for sure what affect testosterone will have on a normal man who does not have cancer but 4300 is clear thru the roof. If you want to get a normal result I would get my testosterone level down to normal just in case, i.e. 500-600. Most importantly, is your doc a Urologist? If he isn't then you should see one and if it were me I'd find a younger Uro, someone who is up on all the new developments. Don't mess with just some General Practitioner or Endo, it's not their specialty. Your PSA went up 1.2 which is quite a jump but it could have come from any of the things I mentioned, esp an infection. Have them check you for prostate infection. The cause is still unknown but I know when I first got one I was having a lot of sex with different women and the doc first thought I had the clap. Penicillin won't cure prostatits. It takes Septra, Bactrim or Cipro. The prostate is like a sponge and once you get an infection it's extremely hard to get rid of it all completely.
By all means get a second PSA once you get your test levels down to normal and have it done by a Uro. Don't let him do a digital first tho. Draw the blood first. Stay off caffeine before the test and take some Ibuprofen a few day before. Take the advice of a good Uro regardless of your next test results.
~ Vet~ I like Thai Girls
Mate thanks for this info. I had the blood test done about 48 hours after a digital exam and an unltra sound. Does jerking off count as sex because I probably did that a few times between the exam and the blood test as well. The test was done by a Urologist, the blood tests were done by my GP who knows all about my steroid history. So does the Urologist as my Dr found one who would agree to treat me without a lecture.
So if by some chance it is Prostate Cancer, what would you do. If I lose the ability to have sex I would consider my life to be effectively over, it is hugely important to me so I need to understand what the risks of doing nothing are as well.
Associate Member
Kale,
You bet your sweet ass jerking off counts! It's the ejaculation that raises the PSA. Usually the effects only last 24-48 hrs depending on the age of the man but there have been cases where ejaculation kept the PSA raised for 7 days. That digital exam could have raised it too.
Very slim chance it's PCa! With the amount of T. in your blood stream and it was cancer, your PSA would have shot up to the moon. My Oncologist in Atlanta has made this statement in hundreds of lectures over the years, i.e. "one cancer cell can produce 10 times more PSA than a normal prostate cell.
If by some "slim" chance you would have cancer, NO your sex life will not be over. You can take that to the bank! I'll be 73 in Sept and mine isn't over and I had low testosterone since 1988.
The risks of doing nothing are eventually and ultimately death. Don't even consider taking such a path! Here are some famous people who had prostate cancer and are living normal lives today. Rudy Giuliani, Robert De Niro, Joe Torre, Arnold Palmer, Harry Belafonte, Bob Dole (the Viagra Man), Colin Powel, John Kerry (John Kerry's prostate cancer was detected through a normal PSA test. It was significantly higher than the last PSA test, but still with the normal range. He was diagnosed in 2002 and has made a full recovery.)
I know well the fear and anxiety of waiting and not knowing for sure and also the devastation that follows if one is diagnosed as positive for PCa. I thought my world had collapsed on top of me. But then I hit the books and searched everything I could find on the internet. But you aren't to that point yet and if you do some of the things I mentioned previously, your PSA is going to come down. Take a sabbatical from all sex for a few days prior to the test, yeh, I know thats going to be a tough one, esp when your'e full of hormones and with that lovely Thai girl
Don't let them stick their dirty finger up your arse either, not before the test, No heavy lifting for a few days prior, (including your dick) I knew what your were going to say.
No alcohol or caffeine for a couple days, and take some Ibuprofen for a few days before. If you've had any kind of burning sensation when urinating it wouldn't hurt to take some cipro since thats one of the symptoms of infection but the Uro should check you for that as standard practice. Good luck and don't worry. You'll be alright. I might have forgotten something but if I think of anything else I'll post an addendum.
Mr. Moderation
shit bro...i thought we were out of the water....what r u thinking of doing....doc's telling you no hormones for 6 mos and then retest? what r u thinking, that you don't want to wait 6 months? that's the highest test level i've ever seen...i'll be here, bud
gator should be checkin in..it's the weekend
Anabolic Member
Hope your Doc is right. You are the Professor here. Considering you
PSA hasn't gone up only 1.2 points and the heavy test level.. Might
be time for a digital rectal exam. You know the symptoms. I assume
you don't have any. Your Doc sounds like he knows his stuff. I would
not stress out. However, I would not wait 6 months either. Hope
things work out.
~ Vet~ I like Thai Girls
I had a digital exam and an ultra sound only last week and they were all fine. I have done a bit of research this morning and I am a bit less worried than when I first posted. Lets see what happens from here.
Anabolic Member
Your gonna be fine.
~ Vet~ I like Thai Girls
Thanks mate, I sure hope so, its has me a bit rattled at the moment I can tell you. Thank God for Google. Man there is a lot of research about all of this. Have a read of this
Testosterone Therapy in Men - Sexual Desire & Performance
John E. Morley, M.B., B.Ch.
Symposium Article
Clinical and epidemiologic studies, along with basic scientific research, have shown a trend toward androgen deficiency in aging males. The focus of the clinical investigations described here is to determine whether testosterone deficiency is a physiologic cause of the aging process and whether testosterone replacement might prevent or ameliorate a decline in quality of life associated with age-related decline in physical and psychological functioning.
The physiologic aspects of aging are presented in the myth of Tithonus, the lover of Aurora, goddess of dawn. Aurora loved Tithonus so much that she asked her father, Zeus, to grant him eternal life. Unfortunately she forgot to request eternal youth for her lover, who began to experience the failure of his libido at approximately age 50 years and at age 60 to 70 years was somewhat impotent. By the age of 80 years, Tithonus had lost much of his muscle strength, and by the time he turned 90, he walked around stooped, because his bone was disappearing and he had some kyphosis.
By the time he reached 100 years, he had developed some age-related cognitive dysfunction, which was shown in the myth by the fact that he babbled incessantly. At this stage, love's sweet bloom had wilted, and Aurora just wanted to be rid of him. But Tithonus was immortal. Since she could not make him disappear, Aurora changed him into a cicada instead. Thus, the chirping of a cicada is actually the incessant babbling of a senile old man.
Many of the changes cited in this myth are associated with declining testosterone production. They include age-related disturbances in memory, muscle mass, and strength. Clearly, loss of libido and impotence are testosterone effects, and osteopenia may be another. There is evidence to suggest that disturbances in balance and declines in maximal oxygen uptake capacity (VO2max) also relate to declines in testosterone levels, although these effects have been understudied. Changes in food intake may also be effects of testosterone loss.
Today scientists are looking for hormonal substances that will rejuvenate human beings and allow them to live longer. Can this be done with testosterone? Probably not, but the full range of its potential may be under appreciated. Twenty years of clinical experience and current research findings provide a convincing argument that testosterone replacement has a role to play in improving the quality of life in older men.
EVIDENCE FOR AN AGE-RELATED DECLINE IN TESTOSTERONE
One of the early studies that has helped to define an age-related decrease in testosterone levels was done in healthy men aged 20-45 years compared with those aged 50 to 70 years. Levels of bioavailable testosterone were variable in the group of young individuals, who all were in robust health, with no levels measuring below 70 ng/dL. When these findings were compared with measurements in healthy men aged 50 to 70 years who had no known disease or medications, no longer were there any men with very high bioavailable testosterone levels, and approximately half of the group had levels below those of the younger individuals.
Importantly, luteinizing hormone (LH) levels were not elevated in the older populations. Additional confirmation came from an Australian study by Wishart and colleagues. Using a free androgen index, these investigators reported a decline in testosterone after age 31 years that continued each decade.
Longitudinal Study
The current understanding is that declines in free and bioavailable testosterone levels are related to a failure of the gonadotropin-releasing hormone pulse generator; whether it is pulse frequency or some other cause at that level is unknown. There also appears to be a malfunction at the pituitary level.
CLINICAL IMPLICATIONS OF TESTOSTERONE DEFICIENCY
Currently, the key questions involve whether declining testosterone levels as a function of age are clinically relevant and whether testosterone replacement may be beneficial in some older individuals. On both issues, the data are beginning to say "yes."
Libido and Sexual Functioning
In As You Like It, William Shakespeare described a 60-year-old in "lean and slipped pantaloon" and with a "big, manly voice, turning again towards childish treble pipes." An endocrinologist seeing a 30-year-old man who looked and spoke like that would diagnose "hypogonadism." This illustrates the point that testosterone deficiency is relatively easy to diagnose in the young but more difficult to define in the 70- or 80-year-old.
Studies have provided evidence of a strong correlation between bioavailable testosterone and a variety of sexual behaviors. Testosterone levels correlate more strongly with libido effects than with erections. These effects were seen in a retrospective study in which a two-year follow-up was conducted of individuals (both testosterone-treated subjects and untreated controls) who presented initially with low levels of bioavailable testosterone. Libido increased in these subjects, which is not surprising.
Morales et. al., reported similar findings using testosterone enanthate or testosterone undecanoate. That double-blind trial showed a 61% increase in sexual interest and performance in treated individuals. A number of other studies have shown similar results over time.
Our clinical experience has suggested that men treated with sildenafil (Viagra) do not obtain an adequate erection if their testosterone level is low, but will respond to testosterone treatment. Testosterone seems to be required for the last stage of the erection, possibly because of the hormone's effect on nitric oxide synthase (unpublished data).
Memory Effects
One recent study showed strong relationships between bioavailable testosterone and performance on a number of different memory tests. Similar results have been published by Janowsky and colleagues and by Herbst et. al., in abstract form.
Strength and Muscle Functioning
Furthermore, both bioavailable and total testosterone levels correlated extremely well with functional status.
Body Fat
From these findings, it appears that testosterone and SHBG levels together are the major predictors of skeletal mass. However, a relationship with IGF-1 and physical activity is not ruled out . Furthermore, two studies have demonstrated that testosterone administration results in an improvement in upper grip strength. Testosterone deficiency will cause a decline in muscle mass, as well as sarcopenia, and frailty, with numerous interactions between these effects.
Bone Density
It should be recognized also that mortality from hip fractures is higher in men with low testosterone. Deficiency is associated with minimal trauma hip fracture. In addition, there are very positive data from Tenover and colleagues showing an association of testosterone with lumbar spine density.
SAFETY ISSUES IN TESTOSTERONE REPLACEMENT
In a study of replacement therapy for 1 year, several tests were performed routinely, including prostate-specific antigen determination, liver function tests, and triglyceride levels. Blood pressure, fructosamine, and osteocalcin levels did not change over the course.
Hematopoiesis
Studies have shown that testosterone supplementation increases hematocrit approximately 1%. As they age, men, but not women, have a decline in hemoglobin of 1 to 2 g/dL, most likely related to the decline in testosterone. Replacement dosages can lead to very high hematocrit in some individuals, however, and this must be monitored every four to six months.
Prostate Cancer
There is no clinical evidence that the risk of either prostate cancer or benign prostatic hyperplasia (BPH) increases with testosterone replacement. In the study by Hajjar et. al., both BPH and prostate cancer tended to decline, but not to a statistically significant degree. A larger study did show similar results, with a significant decline in BPH and prostate cancer (and also angina).
Cardiovascular Risk
The lower the level of free testosterone in an individual, the more likely he is to have coronary artery disease. In the 1940's, testosterone was used to treat angina. The results from a double-blind study were reported by Jaffe. This investigator showed that testosterone improves exercise-induced ST depression. There are also data showing that testosterone will relax the coronary arteries by liberating nitric oxide, an effect very similar to that of estrogen.
A Chinese study by Wu and Weng reported on 62 older men treated for ten weeks with testosterone undecanoate. Angina was relieved in 77% of subjects, there were positive lipid studies, and data suggested improvement in myocardial ischemia. Changes in lipids with testosterone replacement are quite variable; however, clinical evidence shows only no change or a slightly positive change.
SCREENING AND TESTING FOR TESTOSTERONE DEFICIENCY IN CLINICAL PRACTICE
Some years ago a screening questionnaire was developed to help diagnose testosterone deficiency. Among other things, it identified candidates for testosterone testing. The questionnaire consisted of the following 10 items:
1. Do you have a decrease in libido or sex drive?
2. Do you have a lack of energy?
3. Do you have a decrease in strength or endurance?
4. Have you lost weight?
5. Have you noticed a decreased enjoyment of life?
6. Are you sad or grumpy?
7. Are your erections less strong?
8. Have you noted a recent deterioration in your ability to play sports?
9. Are you falling asleep after dinner?
10. Has there been any recent deterioration in your work performance?
The questionnaire was tested on 310 Canadian physicians (the same sample mentioned earlier) and was shown to have a high degree of sensitivity and specificity-one equivalent to that of doing stress testing for myocardial ischemia risk. Risk-factor analysis showed a positive correlation between results and all questions, with the exception of those regarding decreased strength and endurance. However, such decreases have been objectively shown to be symptoms of testosterone deficiency, even though they were not recognized in this population. A positive score on the questionnaire is an affirmative answer to question one or seven or any three others.
Currently, Saint Louis University and the University of Adelaide are involved in a 12-month double-blind study of testosterone undecanoate, 80 mg twice a day, vs. oleic acid. A dose-response method is being employed, so subjects will build up to the 80-mg dose depending on their testosterone levels. Men older than 60 years who have a free testosterone index below the normal range for young adults will be enrolled. The hypothesis is that replacement dosage will decrease leptin and increase IGF-1, bone density, muscle mass, and strength. Multiple measures of strength will be used, involving both upper and lower extremities, with the additional hypothesis that upper extremity strength will be improved to a greater degree than lower extremity strength. A battery of tests will measure improvement in cognitive function, mood, dysphoria, and quality of life. A year's therapy may be too short to achieve positive results in all of these areas.
CONCLUSION
Testosterone replacement, given at the time of male andropause, or "viropause," has shown many positive results. Data show increases in strength, memory, hematocrit, and libido. In addition to the research data, clinical experience has shown that testosterone in replacement dosage clearly improves quality of life and function in middle-aged and older men.
~ Vet~ I like Thai Girls
Thanks for the support guys, its nice you have you guys around for support, I appreciate that a lot. I think it will be a bit harsh to drop the HRT altogether so I am going yo go down to 50mg a week and give the test levels a chace to drop back to normal. I will then get another test in 30 days and see what happens from there. If its still going up I will drop the Test altogether, hopfully the HGH will maintain my mass, but I am no looking forward to the lost of sex drive. I will probably try some kind of PCT as well.
Mr. Moderation
I forgot you were on gh too kale...is that not of concern as far as prostate health..don't mean to give something for worry...but i'd rather you worry and be safe...i'll check it out more too bro...
Anabolic Member
I think the GH you are taking is a healer. Personally it has helped me
through many a different sickness or injury. At our age you can notice
the healing effects very quickly. Certainly a lot faster than a 20 year
old with nothing to heal.
Anabolic Member
Is this a great forum or what!
I'm so glad you guys are here!!!!!
MJ
Mr. Moderation
Go gator...that makes sense about the psa would have been higher with that big a$s test level.....good news...
kale...put the snake back in the pin for bit
~ Vet~ I like Thai Girls
Moblicator
Thanks mate I am so greatfull you are around right now. Jesus I didnt know you were 73 !!! Man thats awsome.. so tell me about the sex thing. Both my father in law and my step father both had radiation for PC and they both have incontinance problems and neither of them can have sex any more.
I know what you mean by fear and anxitey. My young daughter died from a Brain Tumor when she was just three and a half. We fought that for sixteen months until she finally passed away, the rollercoaster ride of surgery, chemo, datiation and MRI's is something I never want to have to go through again.
Associate Member
I'm sorry to hear about the loss of your daughter. I've been told there is no pain or grief like that of losing one of your children, or put another way, to out live your children. I pray I don't have to experience that. I've been very busy this past week and wk end doing things with my 8 y/o great-grand daughter while she is still out of school.
Yea, I'm closing in on 73 but I still work out with weights at the gym 2-3 times a week. Ten years ago when I was only a young thing, (62) I was still able to bench press close to 300 but I tore my rotator cuff one day after working up to 275 and then doing a down set with 250 for 5-6 reps and on about the 3rd rep it went out on me. Had it fixed but that ended my bench pressing. Strangely enough tho, I can still do military presses without any difficulty. BTW, I was still on TRT & a few other types of gear occasionally.
Sorry to hear about your father-in-law and step fathers problems. I've heard many of those horror stories but all I can say there is, there is radiation treatment and there is better radiation treatment. I know it has improved probably over 100 % in the last 15 years and even where I had my treatment (in 2002), it has gotten much better since 2004. It kinda makes me feel cheated but I can honestly say I have never had any type of complications from my radiation treatments. At RCOG, patients don't have any complications of incontinence from treatment. Men 50 or younger with normal erection function or mild ED, 94 % of them keep their sexual function. I started having some problems maintaining an erection at age 58 and subsequently went on TRT, so now I'm still having some of the same problems that I had 14-15 yrs ago but not from the radiation. If I sneak in a few doses of Andro GelWe use to call them piss hard-ons. "Go take a piss , it'll go away", she said.
Like you mentioned theres a whole lot of info in Google but if you want to check out the RCOG site just go to their home page; www.rcog.com -and you can get most of the information on all of the various treatments available, not just theirs.
On the home page scroll down & on the left side, click on, "Understanding Prostate Cancer", & "Radical Prostatectomy and Prostrcision", & Complications of Prostricision". There's a wealth of info on their site, cure rates of different treatments, Cryo, Surgery, various types of radiation,etc.
My treatment consisted of first having radiaoactive seed implants followed by 7 weeks of external conformal beam radiation, a.k.a. accelerator irradiation using IMRT, Intensity Modulated Radiation Therapy. This type of treatment didn't exist 10 years ago. The processes they used then are antiquated now.They can aim the beam right at the prostate without doing harm to other organs or the outer parts of your body. On the Q. & A. , A Conversation with Dr Critz page, put < IMRT > in the Keyword Search and it will explain the process and show you a picture of how it works.
This info is just for you as a place to start in case you wish to do any research but I'm 99.9 % certain you won't need it and I don't want you to be worrying yourself over that PSA. It'll go down, hopefully below 4 on your next test.
Side Bar: I knew I'd fogotten something. There is one little side affect but it will be a side affect no matter what treatment a man has for prostate cancer. You won't have any ejaculate when you have orgasm. The prostate furnishes most of the seminal fluid in the ejaculate and once the cells in the prostate are killed along with the cancer or once the prostate is removed or frozen, you will be shooting blanks. But you still have an orgasm. Sorry. That is one thing I sort of miss.
~ Vet~ I like Thai Girls
Man that is some response. I really appreciate you putting your time into this. You have no idea how much better you have made me feel !!! My daughter was everything to me, it was 8 years ago now but it just feels like yesterday and there isnt an hour goes by that I still dont think of her.
I must admit both my father and father in law were treated 8 or 9 years ago so I guess things have improved a lot since then which makes me feel a lot better.
I know about the shooting blanks thing and that really freaks me out too believe it or not. I just love watching the chics run for cover when I pull out and try and spray them with it
I am still confused as to why they think Test is the cause of all of this when older mens Test levels are very low to zero and thats when the BPH and the PC thing starts !!
Mr. Moderation
Kale...I just had to say that I have four daughters and I told them of you and we believe in heaven and you and your daughter are loved immensely.
~ Vet~ I like Thai Girls
Mate I dont know what to say. I appreciate that very much !!
Last edited by Kale; 08-10-2006 at 06:22 AM.
Associate Member
Kale,
I just left the site you put up for Jazmin. She was such a beautiful girl. I might be 8 years late but I wanted to sign the guest book anyway. I was trying to figure out who she resembled, you or your wife but I think maybe she looked a little like both of you. Also, I have to agree with jpkman, Jazzy is definitely in heaven and with with Jesus. This I truly believe! I was lost for words after viewing your site for Jazmin but the first thought that came to my mind was from (Mark 10: 14-16.), so I quoted it in your guest book.
In regards to: < I am still confused as to why they think Test is the cause of all of this when older mens Test levels are very low to zero and thats when the BPH and the PC thing starts !!> I think you explained that very well yourself in a previous post. You gave the hypothesis that estrogen was probably the culprit instead of DHT. I've always felt the same as you, how could it be the testosterone/DHT? Perhaps they really don't know.
You'll be alright when you get that 4300 down to about 800. Or 600!
Ya know, it's been my experience that "more is not better" when it comes to testosterone. I know I'll get a load of flak on this but there really is scientific evidence to support my side on this. To make a long story short, androgen receptors can become desensitized when overloaded with androgens and if it continues over a long period they will shut down. And that is not good! The body has it's way of maintaining it's homeostasis and it works that way with our hormones too. From my own personal experience I can guarantee you, you'll feel just as good with a "high normal" test level as you will with over 1000. I jacked mine up to 1100 once and I couldn't tell any difference at all. Take care of your body and try to stay within the parameters. Life is too short. Cheers
~ Vet~ I like Thai Girls
Thanks Mate, appreciate the guest book entry, that was really nice of you. I still gets lots of hits to the site. It is my memorial to herKale,
I just left the site you put up for Jazmin. She was such a beautiful girl. I might be 8 years late but I wanted to sign the guest book anyway. I was trying to figure out who she resembled, you or your wife but I think maybe she looked a little like both of you. Also, I have to agree with jpkman, Jazzy is definitely in heaven and with with Jesus. This I truly believe! I was lost for words after viewing your site for Jazmin but the first thought that came to my mind was from (Mark 10: 14-16.), so I quoted it in your guest book.
In regards to: < I am still confused as to why they think Test is the cause of all of this when older mens Test levels are very low to zero and thats when the BPH and the PC thing starts !!> I think you explained that very well yourself in a previous post. You gave the hypothesis that estrogen was probably the culprit instead of DHT. I've always felt the same as you, how could it be the testosterone/DHT? Perhaps they really don't know.
You'll be alright when you get that 4300 down to about 800. Or 600!
Ya know, it's been my experience that "more is not better" when it comes to testosterone. I know I'll get a load of flak on this but there really is scientific evidence to support my side on this. To make a long story short, androgen receptors can become desensitized when overloaded with androgens and if it continues over a long period they will shut down. And that is not good! The body has it's way of maintaining it's homeostasis and it works that way with our hormones too. From my own personal experience I can guarantee you, you'll feel just as good with a "high normal" test level as you will with over 1000. I jacked mine up to 1100 once and I couldn't tell any difference at all. Take care of your body and try to stay within the parameters. Life is too short. Cheers
The Estrogen is definitly under control I tale a-dex everyday and my test showed it in the low to normal range. I am definitly going to get the Test level down. I am going to shoot 60mg Test E every wednesday from now on so that should tale me into the range pretty much. I will stay there for a year or so now and continue the HGH. That stuff is amazing, I measured my bf yesterday and I am down to 12% from 16% when I started just 8 weeks ago.
Mr. Moderation
kudos on the fat loss kale...did you gain weight but lose body fat
Associate Member
I've never used any HGH but I know of many bodybuilders and weightlifters who have and they made tremendous gains using it. Most of them stacked it with other Anabolics to get a double whammy. Not long ago I was offered a vial of Nutropin AQ in exchange for some T.cyp (Nutropin AQ comes already mixed) After reading the flyer that comes with the GH I gave it back to my friend and told him I couldn't take the risk of using it. The reason why I didn't use it, the enclosed flyer said it should not be used by anyone with suspected prostate or breast cancer. Then I did some research on it and below is just one article of many that can be found in google.
Human Growth Hormone (HGH) medications increase risks of colon, prostate and breast cancers.
Genetically Engineered Anti-Aging Medication (HGH) Poses Undisclosed Cancer Risks, Warns Samuel S. Epstein, M.D.
http://www.preventcancer.com/avoidab.../hgh_risks.htm
"Seems like everything we like is either bad for you or fattening".
Mr. Moderation
kale...she is SO BEAUTIFUL.
~ Vet~ I like Thai Girls
Well guys the news just got a whole lot worse. I had another PSA test done yesterday which is only a month after the last one and the PSA has gone from 5 to 8 !!!! My Test levels are down to 929 and my Estragen is as low as 12. So I guess I am pretty much fvcked now. The Dr is going to organise a biopsy this week some time. Its 6.00 am here and I am shitting myself !!!
Mr. Moderation
fvck man...i saw the email..thought that thread was dead....bro...you've been on top of your shiat...either way, you're gonna knock this shiat out...right here for you bro
~ Vet~ I like Thai Girls
Thanks mate. I am shitting myself right now. Not sure what to do or if even to do anything. I watched my daughter die from cancer and it is not a good way to go.
Mr. Moderation
I can feel ya man...your angel is with you too bro....you've been monitoring everything closely that's why you caught this shiat quick and that's why you'll be able to fix it quick as well....lot of ppl in your corner bro
Anabolic Member
Bro, How does your Doc feel about running another PSA this week before you do the biopsy? You know, just to confirm that result. Remember not all pathologists are created equal. Give yourself a few days of (No Lifting, No Alcohol, No Caffiene, No Testosterone and No Sex of any kind) then re-take the PSA. That should provide a more accurate result.
Worth a try bro.....Keep us posted
MJ
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