The Unofficial "Ask a Muslim" Thread.

[T_Own]

take your time man

[auslifta]

1)are women considered to be of a lower standing then men?

2)Jews and Muslims (and Christian) alike were told by their religions not to eat meat from the pig, as a long time ago, because pork could not be stored safely for consumption. Now with proper refridgeration it is totally safe, why do muslims and jews continue not to eat pig?

3) I read that in the quran Mohammed enjoyed fermented dates? Why is alcohol not permissable?

4)Why do women have less rights in muslim governed countries?

5)Do muslims believe all religions and men are equal?

Thankyou for your time.

[BuffedGuy]

Peace be unto you, Auslifta.

In the Name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

1)are women considered to be of a lower standing then men?

In Islam, a person is considered superior or inferior based on his/her piety/righteousness (taqwa). Or perhaps another translation of the word taqwa is "God-fearingness" (although I know that this is not a real English word, but you get my point).

God says in the Quran:

“Verily the most honored of you in the sight of God is who is the most righteous of you.” (Quran, 49:13)

Therefore, if a woman is more righteous (i.e. has more taqwa), then she is superior to a man who is less so, and vice/versa. So the matter is with regards to this piety/righteousness, not the chromosome.

Prophet Muhammad [s] declared that people were born inherently equal “except by piety and good action (Taqwa). Indeed the best among you is the one with the best character (Taqwa). Listen to me. Did I convey this to you properly?…Each one of you who is here must convey this to everyone not present.” (Excerpt from the Prophet’s Last Sermon as in Baihiqi)

So this is the issue with superiority and inferiority.

Nonetheless, Islam does say that men are the leaders of their households. So a man has more authority than the wife in regards to the family. This does not mean that he is superior to her. Rather, if she is more God-fearing, then she is superior to him, just like a student may be superior to a teacher (such as how Einstein was superior to his teacher) or how a soldier may be superior to his sergeant (such as how Saladin is remembered in history, not the sergeant he served under).

The role of leader of the family is seen as a burden, because in Islam roles of authority are seen as a burden, since they are filled with responsibilities and obligations. The Caliph, for example, serves the people. Likewise, the man must serve his family, and is responsible to provide for them.

God says in the Quran:

"Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because God has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means." (Quran, 4:34)

For example, the wife has full right to the man's wealth and it is considered joint property, whereas if she has any wealth of her own, then he has no right to that and it is her personal property. The fact that the man is considered a leader should instill in him feelings of duty and obligation. He must work and provide for his family, whereas she has no need or obligation to work.

This model--of the man being the leader of the family--is of course at odds with the Western model. We Muslims believe that there must always be a leader; even if two or three men go out on a journey somewhere, Prophet Muhammad [s] instructed us to appoint a leader from the group. We believe this is a part of good organization and preventing infighting. Wallahu Aalim.

2)Jews and Muslims (and Christian) alike were told by their religions not to eat meat from the pig, as a long time ago, because pork could not be stored safely for consumption. Now with proper refridgeration it is totally safe, why do muslims and jews continue not to eat pig?

You are presupposing that the reason pork was forbidden to the followers of Abraham (i.e. the three Abrahamic faiths) was because of this reason, i.e. diseases due to poor refrigeration. Rather, the only reason we know for certain why pork was forbidden is because God says so.

There may be other reasons for why pork is forbidden, but at the end of the day, we do it because God said so. For example, it might be that God wished for the believers to have a distinct dietary habit, which would distinguish them from others and unify them. Or it may be that pork contains spiritual impurity that we cannot measure scientifically. And there may be other reasons we don't know of. But we do it because God said so: we hear and we obey. When the King of Kings commands us, we are in no position to question why. (This is our belief.)

3) I read that in the quran Mohammed enjoyed fermented dates? Why is alcohol not permissable?

To the best of my knowledge, there is no such verse in the Quran. There is however a verse in the Quran in which God says that one of His Signs is how from simple grapes come wine. This verse is not about the legal permissibility or prohibition of alcohol. Rather, it is talking about how God creates things, changing one thing to another. For example, a couple verses before this one (about grapes), He mentions how He creates rain from clouds, and how that rain causes the dead earth to come back to life. This is all showing the greatness of God, and it is also establishing the proof that God will bring us back to life after we die; the disbelievers believe that when we die, we are no more; so God is establishing the proof by showing how if He can make wine from grapes, if He can turn a cloud into rain, and if he can bring the dead earth back to life, then why does man think that God cannot resurrect him?

As for the prohibition of alcohol, this is mentioned in the Quran:

"O you who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (sacrificing to) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination--of Satan's handwork: eschew such abomination, that you may prosper! Satan's plan is to excite enmity and hatred between you, with intoxicants and gambling, and hinder you from the remembrance of God and from prayer: will you not then abstain?" (Quran, 5:90)

Keep in mind, however, that alcohol was forbidden in stages, as the Quran was revealed over a period of 23 years. Initially, God simply discouraged drinking, then He forbade being drunk, and then He forbade it altogether. This was what we call "progressive revelation", i.e. revealing the Law in stages in order to prepare man.

4)Why do women have less rights in muslim governed countries?

The situation of women in Muslim lands is deplorable. However, this is in large part due to poverty, lack of education, and simply being a part of the third world. One will find a similar situation in India, China, and Non-Muslim parts of Africa.

5)Do muslims believe all religions and men are equal?

As for religions, we believe that Islam is superior to all religions, because it is free from shirk (polytheism) and it is the perfection of pure monotheism. This, however, does not mean that Muslims are superior to Non-Muslims. Rather, believers (mu'minoon) are superior to disbelievers (kufaar). I have explained previously how the words "Muslim" and "mu'min" are not interchangeable. Furthermore, not all Non-Muslims in this worldly life will be considered disbelievers (kufaar) on the Day of Judgment. Rather, many of them may be from Ahl al-Fatrah. (I have a post on this earlier.)

The fact that Islam is superior to all religions does not mean that a Muslim is superior to a Non-Muslim. A Muslim may even be worse than a Non-Muslim because of this: when a Non-Muslim sins, he may have an excuse that he didn't know any better, but when a Muslim sins, he is doing it even though he knows not to do that. Therefore, is he not worse in this regard?

Answering this question is a bit difficult, and may be confusing for the reader, since we need to differentiate between four groups of people:

1. Muslims in this worldly life who are Muslims in the Hereafter
2. Muslims in this worldly life who are disbelievers in the Hereafter
3. Non-Muslims in this worldly life who are Muslims in the Hereafter
4. Non-Muslims in this worldly life who are disbeliever in the Hereafter

Therefore, the matter of superiority rests in who is a believer in the Hereafter, not with regards to this worldly life. A person who calls himself a Muslim in this world may be a disbeliever in the Hereafter, because his Islam of this worldly life may be false and hypocrisy; he may profess Islam with his tongue only, and when he is resurrected, his tongue will be connected to his heart. Such munaafiqoon (hypocrites) are considered worse than Non-Muslims.

Therefore, the fact that Islam is superior should not cause a Muslim to become arrogant. Rather, the one who is arrogant is showing signs of hypocrisy, which could mean that he is from the lowly munaafiqoon, worse than the Non-Muslims. None of us can has any right to be arrogant, because all praise is due to God, and if we are believers, then we are believers only through God's Mercy. Furthermore, we cannot know for sure if we are mu'minoon or just Muslim.

Some of the extremists puff their chests out, saying "we are Muslim" and by this implying that they are superior; this is misguidance. Islam instructs the believer to have humility and walk the earth not puffing out his chest with pride but with humbleness and sedateness. How can the believer be arrogant when he knows all the many sins he is carrying on his shoulders, that would surely have destroyed him had it not been for the Mercy and Forgiveness of God? Some of the Prophet's disciples--who were the best of the people--would cry for fear that they were from the hypocrites (munaafiqoon); if this is the case with the best of the people, then what about the rest of us who can never compete with their level of piety and righteousness? Surely the one who is arrogant is full of misguidance and has destroyed the religion.

I know this is confusing. I hope you understand.

Hope that helps.

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.

[auslifta]

one more too sorry, the curved sword worn by muslims, isnt this the sword used to behead anyone that didnt convert to muslim? What is its importance as worn on a chain?

[HORSE~]

BuffedGuy you are truly an inspirational person and deserved to be commended for the time you have taken to help others to better understand your religion, customs and practices!!!!


Thank you for taking the time to share your knowledge my friend and may GOD BLESS YOU AND YOURS!!!!


Truly an inspirational thread!!!!

[BuffedGuy]

Dear gst528i, as you can see, the verses and texts above are very clear and categorical. So then how do the extremists use the Quran to justify their terror? They don't. I get into debates with extremists a lot, and they don't rely on the Quran as their defense. Rather, it is me who is always quoting scripture for them. They usually rely on gory pictures of Muslims being killed, tortured, etc. That is their justification.

I agree that they quote scripture in their ridiculous propaganda videos. But they of course selectively quote verses. So a verse will say to wage war, and they will quote that, without quoting the rest of the verse which limits it to only those who are waging war against us and to incline to peace if the enemy inclines to peace.

And they also come up with convoluted arguments to get around all those explicit prohibitions on targeting women and children. For example, they will say "they are not innocent since they pay taxes to fund the military that attacks us" and "they vote for these people who send these armies to Muslim lands, and therefore they are just as guilty and we can target them for that".

Of course all of this extremist logic is unacceptable to us orthodox Muslims, and we can defeat them in argumentation easily (although it takes a lot of time to thoroughly route all their weak arguments and justifications).

Hope that answers your second question!

[BuffedGuy]

3) How can it teach to be intolerant to other religions.

I am really pooped right now (since I've written so much already), so please forgive me if I don't fill this post with quotes. I'll just say that the Quran does not teach intolerance towards other religions. Rather, it preaches that we are to respect the right of others to disbelieve in Islam, that we may not compel them to believe, neither by physical or psychological force of any kind. We are forbidden to curse or abuse the prophets, gods, idols, etc. of any other religion. So we cannot mock and belittle the gods of other religions, because the Quran logically says that then they will do the same to you...and well, how would that feel?

According to the Quran, the Non-Muslims are free to choose or not choose Islam, and we are to treat them with kindness and justice, mercy and forgiveness.

In fact, there is a very famous story of Prophet Muhammad [s] in which he used to walk past this old woman's apartment every day (it was on his way). She was a Non-Muslim and hated Islam. Every day she used to dump garbage on the head of Prophet Muhammad [s]. This went on for a long time. One day, however, the woman didn't throw garbage on him. Prophet Muhammad [s] got worried, since she was an old woman, so he rushed to her apartment to check up on her to make sure she was ok and not in need of any assistance.

So this is the attitude that Islam enjoins upon Non-Muslims.

Hope I answered the question. I have neglected T Own's post so I need to reply to that next, God Willing.

In the Care of the Lord and in the need for forgiveness,
-Saladin.

[gst528i]

The above posts make alot more sense. I see all these great qoute from your bible and there's one thing that has always bothered me about the religion of islam. So much that i have sometime even thought of dumping my muslim gf. While i my self consider to believe in god but not religion i have reaserched other religions to find one that may be fit for me. So far it is futile. However one thing about islam that itched me till today has been how one of the prophets lead their lives. REALIZE THIS, THIS IS NOT MY OPINION OR WHAT I THINK IF ISLAM. I have read the following in not only books, articles papers and some compelling evidence. But i have not found a Muslim person to talk to about. MY GF SHUT ME OFF WHEN I TALK ABOUT THIS. So if you will help me understand this.

Initially, I believed what many Muslims asserted: Muhammad sexually consummated his marriage to the nine year old Aisha following her first menstruation. HOWEVER, after reading brother Sam Shamoun’s articles (1, 2), I realized that the Quran, the Hadith, and Muslim scholar’s writings state that a Muslim husband can engage in sex with a child-bride before she has her first menses. Further, Muhammad actually did just this – he had intercourse with Aisha prior to her first menses!

This increases the weight and scope of my argument and places Muhammad and Islam in a far darker, more disreputable, light. Many Muslims don’t know this and by their own standards Muhammad did the wrong thing in having sex with a child. Muslims have to answer for their continued support for Muhammad because he transgresses their standards. When children are allowed to be used for sex then that is sexual exploitation; so why do they support the creator and establishment of a system that entrenches the abuse and sexual exploitation of children?

I am not trying to use cheap polemics. Surely you realize that for children there are painful ramifications behind Muhammad’s action. They need to be discussed in detail and in context. It might be offensive to some but it needs to be discussed.

The above is taken from here : EDITED REQUEST OF OP

[BuffedGuy]

The above posts make alot more sense. I see all these great qoute from your bible and there's one thing that has always bothered me about the religion of islam. So much that i have sometime even thought of dumping my muslim gf. While i my self consider to believe in god but not religion i have reaserched other religions to find one that may be fit for me. So far it is futile. However one thing about islam that itched me till today has been how one of the prophets lead their lives. REALIZE THIS, THIS IS NOT MY OPINION OR WHAT I THINK IF ISLAM. I have read the following in not only books, articles papers and some compelling evidence. But i have not found a Muslim person to talk to about. MY GF SHUT ME OFF WHEN I TALK ABOUT THIS. So if you will help me understand this.

Initially, I believed what many Muslims asserted: Muhammad sexually consummated his marriage to the nine year old Aisha following her first menstruation. HOWEVER, after reading brother Sam Shamoun’s articles (1, 2), I realized that the Quran, the Hadith, and Muslim scholar’s writings state that a Muslim husband can engage in sex with a child-bride before she has her first menses. Further, Muhammad actually did just this – he had intercourse with Aisha prior to her first menses!

This increases the weight and scope of my argument and places Muhammad and Islam in a far darker, more disreputable, light. Many Muslims don’t know this and by their own standards Muhammad did the wrong thing in having sex with a child. Muslims have to answer for their continued support for Muhammad because he transgresses their standards. When children are allowed to be used for sex then that is sexual exploitation; so why do they support the creator and establishment of a system that entrenches the abuse and sexual exploitation of children?

I am not trying to use cheap polemics. Surely you realize that for children there are painful ramifications behind Muhammad’s action. They need to be discussed in detail and in context. It might be offensive to some but it needs to be discussed.

Dear gst528i,

Peace be unto you.

I must object to you calling Sam Shamoun as "brother". He is one of the most vitriolically Islamophobic nutters alive in the world. Like I condemn Muslim extremists, I think you should condemn Christian extremists, of which he is.

As for the claim that Prophet Muhammad [s] was a pedophile (a horrific claim), I have written a book on this subject. I will attach it.

I kindly ask you to remove the link to that site however, since I asked for no links to be in this thread. The reason is not that I am not brave enough to answer the arguments (since I have already addressed them all in the book I am linking you to), but rather because I want this thread to be about building bridges. Linking to such vitriolically Islamophobic sites will blow up those bridges. Sam Shamoun is a pathological liar. He is so blind with his hatred for Islam that he doesn't mind being intellectually dishonest.

I, on the other hand, do not hate Christianity, so I can manage to be fair about it. (In fact, of all the other religions out there, I like Christianity second most after Islam.) I certainly do not purposefully further an argument I *know* to be false, but Sam Shamoun does that. My friend has dealt with him a LOT, and knows how dishonest the guy is.

Let's stay away from nutters. I won't post diatribes from Al-Qaeda types, and I ask others not to post diatribes from these neo-con extremist nutters.

Anyways, here is the e-book, which answers all the arguments:

http://l.b5z.net/i/u/6053592/f/The_I...lass_House.pdf

Please do not post on this subject again, until you've read the book. I say this because I've answered everything in there about this topic (took me many months to write).

I apologize if in this post of mine I sound a bit angry, and usually I don't get so...but Sam Shamoun gets my blood boiling! And this baseless accusation--that Prophet Muhammad [s] was a pedophile--makes my head want to explode.

Again, sorry!

So please remove the link to that horrific site (which is full of lies and outright forgeries). If however you read the book and something is still un-answered, then please feel free to post here. But please read the book first. This is just about this one topic, since it will eat up ALL my time and I won't be able to answer other questions then.

Please do read the e-book.

Thanks!

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.

P.S. Sorry T-Own!!!! lollll I'm on it!

[T_Own]

np dude. if you really type all that you're gonna have some tired hands on your hands lol.

[Bojangles69]

Just wanted to say thanks buffedguy I just got around to reading your response.

Extremely eye opening and yes I agree 100% with Doc M that you come off very educated/informative w/out sounding bias at all. You sound like you'd actually be a wonderful teacher of Islam (if not already).

Thanks!

[gst528i]

will take of those site links as asked but you will have to edit yours too since you quoted me and that will stay unless you edit it. DID NOT MEAN ANY DISRESPECT

[BuffedGuy]

will take of those site links as asked but you will have to edit yours too since you quoted me and that will stay unless you edit it. DID NOT MEAN ANY DISRESPECT

You have no reason to apologize. It was I who got a bit riled up. Forgive me, my friend.

I have deleted the link from what I quoted from you. Please eliminate it from your post, God Willing. It is just full of lies and sensationalized stuff. It's like posting a link to a KKK website about the Jewish Talmud...it's just complete garbage.

Thanks!

[amcon]

how do muslims see Jesus or isa?

why did muhammad premit christans to live under his protection for money? why not eliminate them?

two part question - wasnt the kissing and circling the metor a pagan ritual? the pilgrimage to mecca (even his last pilgrimage) why did Muhammad perform the pagan customs of the kissing and touching the metor?

what does sura 5:5 say?

i will say to you may only the truth leave our lips, not from man and his doing but from one and only one God.

thank you for your time

[amcon]

how do muslims see Jesus or isa?

why did muhammad premit christans to live under his protection for money? why not eliminate them?

two part question - wasnt the kissing and circling the metor a pagan ritual? the pilgrimage to mecca (even his last pilgrimage) why did Muhammad perform the pagan customs of the kissing and touching the metor?

what does sura 5:5 say?

i will say to you may only the truth leave our lips, not from man and his doing but from one and only one God.

thank you for your time

just a reminder

[BuffedGuy]

Peace be unto you, Amcon.

In the Name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

I will answer your questions in parts, God-Willing.

how do muslims see Jesus?

Muslims respect and revere Jesus (peace be upon him). We consider him one of the greatest of God’s messengers to mankind. The Quran confirms his virgin birth, and an entire chapter of the Quran is entitled ‘Mary’. The Quran describes the birth of Jesus as follows:

"Remember when the angels said, 'O Mary, God gives you good news of a word from Him (God), whose name is the Messiah Jesus, son of Mary, revered in this world and the Hereafter, and one of those brought near (to God). He will speak to the people from his cradle and as a man, and he is of the righteous.' She said, 'My Lord, how can I have a child when no mortal has touched me?' He said, 'Even so! God creates what He wills. If He decrees a thing, He says to it only, ‘Be!’ and it is.'” (Quran, 3:45-47)

Jesus [as] was born miraculously by the command of God, the same command that had brought Adam [as] into being with neither a father nor a mother. God has said:

"The case of Jesus with God is like the case of Adam. He created him from dust, and then He said to him, 'Be!' and he came into being." (Quran, 3:59)

During his prophetic mission, Jesus [as] performed many miracles. God tells us that Jesus [as] said:

“I have come to you with a sign from your Lord. I make for you the shape of a bird out of clay, I breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by God’s permission. I heal the blind from birth and the leper. And I bring the dead to life by God’s permission. And I tell you what you eat and what you store in your houses....” (Quran, 3:49)

We believe that Jesus [as] was a noble prophet of God. We do not agree with our Christian cousins that Jesus [as] was God, the Son of God, or divine. Rather, we believe that he was a human being, although one of the best of the human beings. We believe that elevating the status of Jesus to that of God is not something loved by Jesus [as], but rather it would hurt him, as it makes him into a Taghoot (false god), and Jesus [as] will return at the End of Times to negate this claim and declare his fealty to God alone.

God says in the Quran:

"He [Jesus] said: 'I am indeed a servant of God. He has given me revelation and made me a prophet; He has made me blessed wheresoever I be; and He has enjoined on me prayer and charity as long as I live. He has made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable. So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)!' Such was Jesus the son of Mary. It is a statement of truth, about which they vainly dispute. It is not befitting to (the majesty of) God that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! When He determines a matter, He only says to it, 'Be,' and it is." (Quran, 19:30-35).

Muslims believe that the earliest followers of Jesus [as] were monotheists. We believe that then the people broke into various sects, each changing the book to promote their own beliefs and for their own benefit. The Quran says:

"When Jesus came with Clear Signs, he said: 'Now I have come to you with Wisdom, and in order to make clear to you some of the matters on which you dispute. Therefore, fear God and obey me. God, He is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him--this is a Straight Way.' But sects from among themselves fell into disagreement. So woe to the wrongdoers, from the penalty of a Grievous Day!" (Quran, 43:63-65)

Jesus [as] will disassociate himself from the claim that he is God. The Quran says:

"And behold! God will say [on the Day of Judgment]: 'Oh Jesus, the son of Mary! Did you say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of God?' He will say: 'Glory to You! Never could I say what I had no right to say. Had I said such a thing, You would indeed have known it. You know what is in my heart, though I know not what is in Yours. For You know in full all that is hidden. Never did I say to them anything except what You commanded me to say: 'Worship God, my Lord and your Lord.' And I was a witness over them while I lived among them. When You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a witness to all things!'" (Quran, 5:116-117).

We believe that Jesus [as] was an exalted prophet teaching the same message as all the prophets (unity of God), and that it is not possible for him to teach something different (trinity). The Quran says:

"Christ, the son of Mary, was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They both had to eat food [and God is above that]. See how God makes His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!" (Quran, 5:75).

Here are some more verses in the Quran about Jesus [as]:

"They have taken as lords beside God their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One God. There is no God save Him. Be He Glorified from all that they ascribe as partner unto Him!" (Quran, 9:31)

"They say: 'God has begotten a son!' Glory be to Him [above that]! He is Self-Sufficient! His are all things in the heavens and on earth! No warrant have you to say this! Say you about God what you know not?" (Quran, 10:68)

"And remember her (Mary) who guarded her chastity: We breathed into her of Our Spirit, and We made her and her son a sign for all peoples!" (Quran, 21:91)

"And We made the son of Mary and his mother as a Sign!" (Quran, 23:50)

"And remember We took from the prophets their covenant: As We did from you: from Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus the son of Mary: We took from them a solemn covenant." (Quran, 33:7)

"And when Jesus son of Mary said: 'O Children of Israel! Lo! I am the messenger of God unto you, confirming that which was revealed before me in the Torah, and bringing good tidings of a messenger who comes after me, whose name is the Praised One.' Yet when he has come unto them with clear proofs, they say: 'This is mere magic.'" (Quran, 61:6)

"O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning God save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in God and His messengers, and say not 'Three'--Cease! It is better for you! - God is only One God. Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And God is sufficient as Defender." (Quran, 4:171)

"In blasphemy indeed are those that say that God is Christ the son of Mary. Say: 'Who then has the least power against God, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all everyone that is on the earth? For to God belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is in between. He creates what He pleases. For God has power over all things." (Quran, 5:17)

"They do blaspheme who say: 'God is Christ the son of Mary.' But Christ said: 'O Children of Israel, worship God, my Lord and your Lord.' Whoever joins other gods with God, -- God will forbid him the Garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help." (Quran, 5:72)

"And Jesus shall be a Sign for the coming of The Hour: therefore have no doubt about The Hour, but follow me: this is a Straight Path." (Quran, 43:61)

Muslims believe that Jesus was not crucified. It was the plan of Jesus’s enemies to crucify him, but God saved him and raised him up to Him. It is said that Judas (the traitor who turned on Jesus) was killed in place of Jesus, and that God caused Judas to look like Jesus [as].

God said:

"And remember when God said: 'O Jesus! Lo! I am gathering you and causing thee to ascend unto Me, and am cleansing you of those who disbelieve and am setting those who follow you above those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then unto Me you will all return, and I shall judge between you as to that wherein you all used to differ." (Quran, 3:55)

"They said, 'We killed the Messiah Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of God.' They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but the likeness of him was put on another man..." (Quran, 4:157)

We believe that Jesus [as] was a Muslim. In fact, we believe all the prophets were Muslims, starting from Prophet Adam, the first human on earth. Muslim is merely an Arabic word which means "submitter" and means one who submits himself to God. The Quran says:

"And they say, 'Be Jews or Christians and you shall be guided.' Say: 'Nay, rather [we follow] the creed of Abraham, a man of pure faith; he was no idolater.'" (Quran, 2:135)

"No! In truth Abraham was not a Jew, nor a Christian; but he was a Muslim (submitter to God) and one pure of faith; certainly he was never of the idolaters." (Quran, 3:67)

This is our belief in Jesus (peace be upon him).

Hope that helps.

In the Care of the Lord Most High,
-Saladin.

[amcon]

Peace be unto you, Amcon.

In the Name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

I will answer your questions in parts, God-Willing.



Muslims respect and revere Jesus (peace be upon him). We consider him one of the greatest of God’s messengers to mankind. The Quran confirms his virgin birth, and an entire chapter of the Quran is entitled ‘Mary’. The Quran describes the birth of Jesus as follows:

"Remember when the angels said, 'O Mary, God gives you good news of a word from Him (God), whose name is the Messiah Jesus, son of Mary, revered in this world and the Hereafter, and one of those brought near (to God). He will speak to the people from his cradle and as a man, and he is of the righteous.' She said, 'My Lord, how can I have a child when no mortal has touched me?' He said, 'Even so! God creates what He wills. If He decrees a thing, He says to it only, ‘Be!’ and it is.'” (Quran, 3:45-47)

Jesus [as] was born miraculously by the command of God, the same command that had brought Adam [as] into being with neither a father nor a mother. God has said:

"The case of Jesus with God is like the case of Adam. He created him from dust, and then He said to him, 'Be!' and he came into being." (Quran, 3:59)

During his prophetic mission, Jesus [as] performed many miracles. God tells us that Jesus [as] said:

“I have come to you with a sign from your Lord. I make for you the shape of a bird out of clay, I breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by God’s permission. I heal the blind from birth and the leper. And I bring the dead to life by God’s permission. And I tell you what you eat and what you store in your houses....” (Quran, 3:49)

We believe that Jesus [as] was a noble prophet of God. We do not agree with our Christian cousins that Jesus [as] was God, the Son of God, or divine. Rather, we believe that he was a human being, although one of the best of the human beings. We believe that elevating the status of Jesus to that of God is not something loved by Jesus [as], but rather it would hurt him, as it makes him into a Taghoot (false god), and Jesus [as] will return at the End of Times to negate this claim and declare his fealty to God alone.

God says in the Quran:

"He [Jesus] said: 'I am indeed a servant of God. He has given me revelation and made me a prophet; He has made me blessed wheresoever I be; and He has enjoined on me prayer and charity as long as I live. He has made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable. So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)!' Such was Jesus the son of Mary. It is a statement of truth, about which they vainly dispute. It is not befitting to (the majesty of) God that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! When He determines a matter, He only says to it, 'Be,' and it is." (Quran, 19:30-35).

Muslims believe that the earliest followers of Jesus [as] were monotheists. We believe that then the people broke into various sects, each changing the book to promote their own beliefs and for their own benefit. The Quran says:

"When Jesus came with Clear Signs, he said: 'Now I have come to you with Wisdom, and in order to make clear to you some of the matters on which you dispute. Therefore, fear God and obey me. God, He is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him--this is a Straight Way.' But sects from among themselves fell into disagreement. So woe to the wrongdoers, from the penalty of a Grievous Day!" (Quran, 43:63-65)

Jesus [as] will disassociate himself from the claim that he is God. The Quran says:

"And behold! God will say [on the Day of Judgment]: 'Oh Jesus, the son of Mary! Did you say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of God?' He will say: 'Glory to You! Never could I say what I had no right to say. Had I said such a thing, You would indeed have known it. You know what is in my heart, though I know not what is in Yours. For You know in full all that is hidden. Never did I say to them anything except what You commanded me to say: 'Worship God, my Lord and your Lord.' And I was a witness over them while I lived among them. When You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a witness to all things!'" (Quran, 5:116-117).

We believe that Jesus [as] was an exalted prophet teaching the same message as all the prophets (unity of God), and that it is not possible for him to teach something different (trinity). The Quran says:

"Christ, the son of Mary, was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They both had to eat food [and God is above that]. See how God makes His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!" (Quran, 5:75).

Here are some more verses in the Quran about Jesus [as]:

"They have taken as lords beside God their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One God. There is no God save Him. Be He Glorified from all that they ascribe as partner unto Him!" (Quran, 9:31)

"They say: 'God has begotten a son!' Glory be to Him [above that]! He is Self-Sufficient! His are all things in the heavens and on earth! No warrant have you to say this! Say you about God what you know not?" (Quran, 10:68)

"And remember her (Mary) who guarded her chastity: We breathed into her of Our Spirit, and We made her and her son a sign for all peoples!" (Quran, 21:91)

"And We made the son of Mary and his mother as a Sign!" (Quran, 23:50)

"And remember We took from the prophets their covenant: As We did from you: from Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus the son of Mary: We took from them a solemn covenant." (Quran, 33:7)

"And when Jesus son of Mary said: 'O Children of Israel! Lo! I am the messenger of God unto you, confirming that which was revealed before me in the Torah, and bringing good tidings of a messenger who comes after me, whose name is the Praised One.' Yet when he has come unto them with clear proofs, they say: 'This is mere magic.'" (Quran, 61:6)

"O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning God save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in God and His messengers, and say not 'Three'--Cease! It is better for you! - God is only One God. Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And God is sufficient as Defender." (Quran, 4:171)

"In blasphemy indeed are those that say that God is Christ the son of Mary. Say: 'Who then has the least power against God, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all everyone that is on the earth? For to God belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is in between. He creates what He pleases. For God has power over all things." (Quran, 5:17)

"They do blaspheme who say: 'God is Christ the son of Mary.' But Christ said: 'O Children of Israel, worship God, my Lord and your Lord.' Whoever joins other gods with God, -- God will forbid him the Garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help." (Quran, 5:72)

"And Jesus shall be a Sign for the coming of The Hour: therefore have no doubt about The Hour, but follow me: this is a Straight Path." (Quran, 43:61)

Muslims believe that Jesus was not crucified. It was the plan of Jesus’s enemies to crucify him, but God saved him and raised him up to Him. It is said that Judas (the traitor who turned on Jesus) was killed in place of Jesus, and that God caused Judas to look like Jesus [as].

God said:

"And remember when God said: 'O Jesus! Lo! I am gathering you and causing thee to ascend unto Me, and am cleansing you of those who disbelieve and am setting those who follow you above those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then unto Me you will all return, and I shall judge between you as to that wherein you all used to differ." (Quran, 3:55)

"They said, 'We killed the Messiah Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of God.' They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but the likeness of him was put on another man..." (Quran, 4:157)

We believe that Jesus [as] was a Muslim. In fact, we believe all the prophets were Muslims, starting from Prophet Adam, the first human on earth. Muslim is merely an Arabic word which means "submitter" and means one who submits himself to God. The Quran says:

"And they say, 'Be Jews or Christians and you shall be guided.' Say: 'Nay, rather [we follow] the creed of Abraham, a man of pure faith; he was no idolater.'" (Quran, 2:135)

"No! In truth Abraham was not a Jew, nor a Christian; but he was a Muslim (submitter to God) and one pure of faith; certainly he was never of the idolaters." (Quran, 3:67)

This is our belief in Jesus (peace be upon him).

Hope that helps.

In the Care of the Lord Most High,
-Saladin.

matthew 28: 19 " go they therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the father, and of the Son(capitilized i will show y later), and of the Holy Ghost:"

the words are in red signifing Jesus spoke them him self, he identifies the Trinity. Jesus' words affirm the reality of the trinity. some people accuse theologians of makeing up the comcept of the trinity and reading it in to scripture. A we see here, the concept comes directly from Jesus him self. He did not say baptize them into the names, but in the the name of the father,son,and holy ghost. the three - in - 0ne nature of the father, son and the Holy Ghost.

as for the capitol son in the middle of the sentence it is refering God, as if it were to say " him ' it could mean anything if it said " Him" it would mean God.

my explaination of trinity - i am my mothers son, i am my brother's brother, i am my childrens father, their for i am a son, a brother and a father.

i pray to my Lord(capitol letter) Jesus Christ, the God of Gods...

[BuffedGuy]

Peace be unto you, Amcon.

In the Name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

First off, I want to sincerely thank you for your good manners. And I also want to seek your forgiveness if I ever offend you, as I know these sort of discussions can oftentimes leave bruised feelings. I hope we can discuss these matters without thinking less of the other person, God-Willing.

matthew 28: 19 " go they therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the father, and of the Son(capitilized i will show y later), and of the Holy Ghost:"

the words are in red signifing Jesus spoke them him self, he identifies the Trinity. Jesus' words affirm the reality of the trinity. some people accuse theologians of makeing up the comcept of the trinity and reading it in to scripture. A we see here, the concept comes directly from Jesus him self. He did not say baptize them into the names, but in the the name of the father,son,and holy ghost. the three - in - 0ne nature of the father, son and the Holy Ghost.

as for the capitol son in the middle of the sentence it is refering God, as if it were to say " him ' it could mean anything if it said " Him" it would mean God.

my explaination of trinity - i am my mothers son, i am my brother's brother, i am my childrens father, their for i am a son, a brother and a father.

i pray to my Lord(capitol letter) Jesus Christ, the God of Gods...

There are three issues you bring up here:

1. Matthew 28:19
2. The fact that the word "Son" is capitalized
3. Your explanation of Trinity

1. I understand that Christians use Matthew 28:19 as a proof for the Trinity. We Muslims of course understand it in a different way. In fact, we believe that many of the verses used by Christians as a proof for Trinity--or the divinity of Christ--are actually a proof *against* Trinity and *against* the divinity of Christ (may peace be upon him). I will give you one example:

"I and my Father are one." (John 10:30)

At first glance, this seems like a strong proof for claiming that Jesus [as] is God. And this is why this verse is used by Christians a lot. However, this verse in fact seems to indicate the opposite. If Jesus [as] had wanted to say what the Christians mean, then why didn't he simply say:

"I am my Father" or "I am God" or "I am your Lord God" or "I am your Father in Heaven" or "I am the Father in Heaven"?

The construction "I and my father are one" is different than "I am my father" or "I am God", etc. Think of it this way. Let's pretend that in real life I (BuffedGuy) was your friend named Fulan. Would I post and say "I and Fulan are one" or would I say "I am Fulan" ? Surely I would have used the second phrase.

The phraseology "I and Fulan are one" would be more appropriate to use if for example there was another Muslim posting on this forum. And let's say someone was harassing him, so I come to his defense...then I'd say "I and Fulan are one." It doesn't mean that we are one person. It means that we are one in our goals, objectives, ideologies, religion, etc.

Elsewhere in the Bible, we read:

John 17:
20Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21That they all may be one; as Thou, Father, art in me, and I in Thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that Thou hast sent me.

22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23I in them, and Thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that Thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as Thou hast loved me.

So what we Muslims say is that the unity spoken about in John 10:30 is the same as being spoken about here in John 17:21.

In other words:

- That they all may be one; as Thou, Father, art in me, and I in Thee

- That they also may be one in us

- That they may be one, even as we are one

Which means: We are one with Christ and his Father, in the same way that Christ was one with his Father.

Therefore, if we use John 10:30 to prove that Jesus [as] is God--and we know that we all are one with God like Jesus is one with God--then this means that we are all God. Obviously, nobody would accept this. So what we Muslims say is that the verse John 10:30 is not a proof for trinity or divinity of Christ; rather, it proves that God and Christ had one objective, goal, etc. In other words, Jesus [as] was giving authority to himself, by saying that if you do not follow me, you are not following God. We have similar phrases from Prophet Muhammad [s], where he says that Allah and His Messenger [s] are one. It means rejecting one is rejecting the other, not that they are the same entity.

OK, going back to Matthew 28:19, which reads:

"Go they therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."

I think it is a huge leap to say that this proves that Jesus is divine. If I said:

"Baptize him in the name of Allah and Prophet Muhammad and the Quran"...

Nobody would get from this that all three are the same. Rather, the phrase "AND" proves the exact opposite. Another example:

"Go you and chastise Nazi Germany in the name of the USA, UK, and France."

Nobody would think that this means that USA, UK, and France are one country. Rather, they share the same goals and objectives.

In fact, Matthew 28:19 is a proof *against* Trinity and the divinity of Jesus.

Using the example you gave for explaining Trinity:

my explaination of trinity - i am my mothers son, i am my brother's brother, i am my childrens father, their for i am a son, a brother and a father.

So let's say you (Amcon) said:

Baptize in the name of Amcon, who is his mother's son, his brother's brother, and his children's father.

But if you said:

Baptize in the name of his son, his brother, and his father.

Then--with this second construction--I'd think that these are three different people.

Again, the wording is just off. When God spoke to the Children of Israel, he said quite clearly: "I am the Lord Your God." Why didn't Jesus [as] just say that?

Just as a side-note, sometimes Christians claim that the verse proves that Jesus is God since you cannot be baptized in the name of anyone other than God. However, this argument is weakened considerably by the Bible itself, in which we find that the Israelites were “baptized into Moses” (1 Cor. 10:2); therefore, one can be baptized into a prophet, which is what we claim that Jesus [as] was.

I will answer the two other issues you brought up shortly, God-Willing.

May God unite us upon the truth.

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.

[BuffedGuy]

(cont'd...)

Peace be unto you, Amcon.

Forgive me for the long posts.

The second issue you brought up was:

matthew 28: 19 " go they therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the father, and of the Son(capitilized i will show y later), and of the Holy Ghost:"
...as for the capitol son in the middle of the sentence it is refering God, as if it were to say " him ' it could mean anything if it said " Him" it would mean God.

As you may well know, the phrase "son of God" is used in the Bible for other than Jesus [as]. Yes, you are correct in saying that in the English versions of the Bible, they capitalize this phrase when used for Jesus [as], whereas it is lower case for when it is used for others.

However, this is simply the way the translator/publisher chose to render it. In the original language, the words "son of God" as used for Jesus are the exact same as used for other than Jesus. Therefore, it was simply an arbitrary matter. If I translated the Bible, I could easily put them all in lower case, or all in upper case, etc.

This issue doesn't prove anything; in fact, it actually strengthens what the Quran says:

"They [the Christians] changed words from their contexts and forgot a good part of the message given to them, and you will continue to find them--except a few among them--bent on new deceits, but forgive them, and overlook their misdeeds: for God loves those who are kind." (Quran, 5:13)

"O People of the Book, now has come to you Our Messenger, clarifying to you much of that you used to conceal of the Book and passing over much. Indeed, there has come to you light and a clear Book from God [the Quran] wherewith God guides all who seek His Good Pleasure to paths of peace and safety, and leads them out of darkness, by His Will, into the Light--guides them to a path that is straight." (Quran, 5:16-17)

"Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say: 'This is from God' to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby." (Quran, 2:79)

If you translate a book and capitalize the phrase in one place, then you should capitalize the same phrase in another place; you shouldn't manipulate it because that is a bit academically dishonest. Had the original writer meant to differentiate the two, then why is the text in the original language the same?

The Catholic Encyclopedia says:

The title "son of God" is frequent in the Old Testament. The word "son" was employed among the Semites to signify not only filiation, but other close connexion or intimate relationship...The title "son of God" was applied in the Old Testament to persons having any special relationship with God. Angels, just and pious men, the descendants of Seth, were called "sons of God" (Job 1:6; 2:1; Psalm 88:7; Wisdom 2:13; etc.). In a similar manner it was given to Israelites (Deuteronomy 14:50); and of Israel, as a nation, we read: "And thou shalt say to him: Thus saith the Lord: Israel is my son, my firstborn. I have said to thee: Let my son go, that he may serve me" (Exodus 4:22 sq.).http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14142b.htm

So why did the translators capitalize "son of God" for Jesus but not when in the Old Testament?

The fact is that the phrase "son of God" is used for many people in the Bible. Therefore, we understand from this that it doesn't mean a literal son of God.

More on this topic in a bit, God-Willing. Let me first move on to your third point:

3.

my explaination of trinity - i am my mothers son, i am my brother's brother, i am my childrens father, their for i am a son, a brother and a father.

There is a difference between names/adjectives and persons. For example, my Chinese friend has a Chinese name (Xin) and an English name (Mike). Yet, he is the same person. He doesn't talk to himself, he doesn't pray to himself, he doesn't implore himself to save himself, and he doesn't talk about himself in the third person. For example, we read:

Matthew 26:39 ‘…he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, ‘My Father…”

I couldn't imagine Mike praying to himself, saying "O Xin..."

We must understand the difference between a name or adjective/descriptor and a separate person or being.

In the Bible, Jesus [as] says:

John 14:1 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me.”

Can you imagine my Chinese friend saying: "Trust in me and also trust in Xin."'

Or to use your analogy: can you imagine someone saying about you: "His mother's son talked to his children's father, and asked for help from his brother's brother" ?

Anyways, this is the Muslim understanding. I know that Christians will see it differently. I just had to "argue my case". Forgive me if you were offended.

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.

[BuffedGuy]

Peace be unto you, Amcon.

In the Name of God, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful.

why did muhammad premit christans to live under his protection for money? why not eliminate them?

Under Islamic Law, Muslims are obligated to join the military if the Caliph calls them to defend the Islamic lands.

Because Non-Muslims did not join the military, they were obligated to pay a tax (the jizyah) that went to supporting the military. It was an exchange: Non-Muslims paid a small military tax, and the Muslims were obligated to defend the Non-Muslims from invaders. There were times in history in which the Muslims were unable to guarantee protection to the Non-Muslims living in areas far away from the capitol. Because of this, the government did not take jizyah from them. Furthermore, the Jizyah was only taken from able-bodied men, not from women and children.

It should be noted that Muslims were obligated to pay a religious tax (the zakat) which was not obligatory on Non-Muslims. The religious tax on Muslims was heavier than the jizyah on the Non-Muslims. This is based on the command of Prophet Muhammad [s], who forbade overtaxing Non-Muslims. The Prophet's disciple said:

"I recommend him (the ruler) to abide by the rules and regulations concerning the Dhimmis (Non-Muslim citizens) of God and His Apostle: to fulfill their contracts completely and fight for them and not to tax them beyond their capabilities." (Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol.2, Book 23, No.475)

As for why Prophet Muhammad [s] didn't eliminate the Christians, this is because it would be injustice and oppression to do that. The Quran says: "Let there be no compulsion in religion."

Prophet Muhammad [s] said:

"Whoever hurts a Non-Muslim citizen of a Muslim state hurts me, and he who hurts me annoys God." (Sahih al-Bukhari)

"He who hurts a Non-Muslim citizen of a Muslim state, I am his enemy, and I shall be his enemy on the Day of a Judgment." (Sahih al-Bukhari)

"Beware on the Day of Judgment, I shall myself be the complainant against him who wrongs a Non-Muslim citizen of a Muslim state or lays on him a responsibility greater than he can bear or deprives him of anything that belongs to him." (Al-Mawardi)

"Anyone who kills a Non-Muslim who had become our ally will not smell the fragrance of Paradise." (Bukhari)

Prophet Muhammad [s] warned the Muslims:

"Whoever makes a snide comment to a dhimmi (Non-Muslim citizen) has earned Hell." (Sahih of Ibn Hibbaan).

In the Care of the Lord Most High,
-Saladin.

[BuffedGuy]

Peace be unto you, Amcon.

what does sura 5:5 say?

"This day are all things good and pure made lawful unto you. The food of the People of the Book is lawful unto you and yours is lawful unto them. Lawful unto you in marriage are chaste women who are believers, and chaste women among the People of the Book who received scripture before you. Lawful are they to you when you have given them their dowries, taking them in marriage, not fornicating nor taking them as girlfriends in secret. And whoever denies faith, his work indeed is of no account, and in the Hereafter he shall be one of the losers." (Quran, 5:5)

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.

[amcon]

how many times was muhammad married? and were the ages of his women listed?

[amcon]

how many times was muhammad married? and were the ages of his women listed?

reminder part 2

(---this might b a little politicaly un correct

[BuffedGuy]

reminder part 2

(---this might b a little politicaly un correct

LOLLLLLLL

Ahh, I don't mind it. I consider Usama bin Ladin one of the dogs of hell-fire, as prophecized by Prophet Muhammad [s]. I found it (the hijacked icon) funny. But I hope it is of Bin Ladin and not of Arabs in general. (I assumed it was.)

I am going to answer your questions in a bit...don't worry. I am making sure I answer all of them, God Willing.

Take care.

[BuffedGuy]

I will God-Willing answer everyone's question(s), as it is my religious duty to do so. Just please be patient. If you have another question (and I haven't answered the first one yet), don't let that stop you from posting the question now (rather than later). I'll get around to it as soon as I can, God-Willing.

But again, please keep it cordial. I am enjoying the thread and the great manners of people on this forum. I hope we can continue it in this same way, God-Willing.

EDIT: Isn't someone going to ask why I keep repeating the word "God-Willing" so many times??? OK, crud, I'm adding another question to the bank loll...OK, I'll answer it if someone wants me to, God Willing.

[Voice of Reason]

Makes sense... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wp3Eam5FX58

[gst528i]

Makes sense... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wp3Eam5FX58

what was the reason for thie video?

You know there would alot less injuries and deaths in here america if these rules were followed by crackers lol ... Including less domestics calls.

[Voice of Reason]

what was the reason for thie video?

You know there would alot less injuries and deaths in here america if these rules were followed by crackers lol ... Including less domestics calls.

You answered your question it was to have "alot less injuries and deaths in here america if these rules were followed by crackers lol ... Including less domestics calls"...

[j4ever41]

Makes sense... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wp3Eam5FX58

makes no sense to me.

[Voice of Reason]

me neither... (very dry sarcastic humor alert!)

[BuffedGuy]

Peace be unto you, Voice of Reason.

I am going to try to be the voice of reason in this post.

Makes sense... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wp3Eam5FX58

OK, I am now going to deal with the wife-beating issue, God-Willing.

First, I am going to give some background. Understand that Prophet Muhammad [s] was born in 570 AD, which was over 1,400 years ago.

During this discussion, I am going to refer to a document produced by the California Department of Health Services. It is accessible here. Basically, it is a history of domestic abuse.

In the year 900-1300 A.D., we read:

In Europe, squires and noblemen beat their wives as regularly as they beat their serfs; the peasants faithfully followed their lords' example. The Church sanctions the subjection of women. Priests advise abused wives to win their husbands' good will through increased devotion and obedience. The habit of looking upon women as a species apart, without the same feelings and capacity for suffering which men possess, becomes inbred during the Middle Ages. In a Medieval theological manual, a man is given permission to "castigate his wife and beat her for correction...".

In the 1400's:

The Christian church vacillates between support of wife beating and encouraging husbands to be more compassionate and using moderation in their punishments of their wives. A medieval Christian scholar, Friar Cherbubino of Siena, writes Rules of Marriage, in support of wife beating.

In 1427:

Bernard of Siena suggests that his male parishioners "exercise a little restraint and treat their wives with as much mercy as they would their hens and pigs."

I give this all as background. Again, Prophet Muhammad [s] was born in the year 570 AD. In the document produced by the California Department of Health Services, I am unable to see even a single quote from a Western man criticizing wife-beating. The only quotes that are given in this regard are women, who are ignored of course.

Surely the Biblical Jesus knew that men were routinely beating their wives, and yet we have zero quotes from him warning men not to do that. He warned against a lot of other things, but not this. The Bible tells us that there is no punishment for beating a slave, so long as you don't kill him/her:

"When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

But what does this have to do with wife-beating, you may ask? The reason I bring this up is not to just throw mud at Christians (since I *hate* haters of all kinds), but because of the last sentence in that verse explains the logic as to *why* a man may beat his slave: because he is property. In Exodus 20 and 21, women are described as the man's property. It was this chain of logic used by Christian leaders throughout history to sanction wife beating: the wife is property and hence a man can beat her or do whatever he wants with her.

My point is that the Old Testament was around before Jesus, and so were the justifications that were used so that men could routinely beat their wives. Yet, we don't have a single quote from the Biblical Jesus that counters this. In fact, we don't have any Christian men condemning wife-beating at least up until 1427 AD, when we are told to treat them like hens and pigs.

Yet, Prophet Muhammad [s], who was born in 570 AD, forbade hitting one's wife. Again, I bring up Jesus [as] and the Christian leaders NOT to bash Christians. Rather, I meant it merely so that one can appreciate the greatness and significance of Prophet Muhammad's words condemning domestic abuse.

Prophet Muhammad [s] said:

"The most perfect of the believers in their belief are those with the best manners, and the best of you are those who are best with their wives." (Riyadh as-Salihin, Chapter 34, Nr. 278, Ibn-Hanbal, No. 7396)

And Prophet Muhammad [s] advised his disciples:

“The best of you is the one who is best towards his wife.” (al-Tirmidhi, 3895; Ibn Maajah, 1977).

Prophet Muhammad [s] said:

"The people of the household of Muhammad have been surrounded by many women who are complaining about their husbands (abusing them). Those men are not among the best of you." (Sunan Abu Dawud: Book 11, Number 2141)

The Prophet's disciple narrated:

"I went to the Apostle of Allah and asked him: What do you command about our wives? He replied: "Give them food what you have for yourself, and clothe them by which you clothe yourself, and do not beat them, and do not revile them." (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 11, Number 2139)

And Prophet Muhammad [s] said explicitly:

"Do not beat the female slaves of God." (Sunan Abu Dawud: Book 11, Number 2141)

And Prophet Muhammad [s] said:

"None of you should flog his wife." (Sahih Bukhari, Vol.7, #132)

In another instance, Prophet Muhammad [s] condemned a man because he abused his wife. A woman came to him asking whom she should marry, and when the name of the wife-beater came up, Prophet Muhammad [s] showed his disapproval and pointed her to another man:

"So far as Abu Jahm is concerned, he is a great beater of women, but but Usama b. Zaid (is good to marry)." (Sahih Muslim, Book 009, Number 3526)

As for Prophet Muhammad's own conduct, this is what the Prophet's wife said after he (the Prophet) had died. Aisha [ra] said:

"The Messenger of Allah never struck a servant of his with his hand, nor did he ever hit a woman. He never hit anything with his hand, except for when he was fighting Jihad in the cause of Allah." (Musnad Ahmad)

So we have:

(1) The best of you are those best to their wives.
(2) The worst of you are those who beat their wives.
(3) Do not beat your wives.
(4) Men who beat women shouldn't be married.
(5) Prophet Muhammad [s] never hit a woman.

To sum it up, the impression that people have of Prophet Muhammad [s] is so far off from the reality that it is not even funny. Please show me any Christian man--or any Western man--who issued such injunctions about the proper treatment of one's wife...any Christian or Western leader forbidding a man from hitting his wife.

But then, what the heck is that video about, the one by MEMRI? Good question.

Although Prophet Muhammad [s] forbade wife-beating altogether and even enacted a criminal punishment (Qisas, i.e. an eye for an eye) to such wife beating, God Almighty countered Prophet Muhammad [s] and made an exception to the rule: in the case the wife was guilty of fahisha mubina, which means when a man catches her wife in his bed with another man...not just that, it means such a wife who not only does that but who is nushuz about it, which means that she is in OPEN REBELLION about it. This is not talking about the wife you catch in bed who then apologizes and cries, promising never to do it again.

So what the Israeli Mossad run website MEMRI did was cut off all that came before about how it is forbidden to hit a wife, except this one single exception, i.e. a man catches his wife in bed. Considering that a man is stoned to death for adultery by the Islamic court, what is strange about this?

But hold your horses...it's not that easy. So you catch your wife in bed with another man, you can't just unbuckle your belt and beat the crap out of her like a lot of us would do. There are three steps you must follow, by Islamic Law.

First: you admonish them, i.e. with words. Again, remember we are talking about wives who are nushuz, i.e. openly flouting your authority. So if by your stern words you can get her back in line, i.e. she promises not to do it again, then the matter MUST stop there.

SECOND: If words fail, then you go onto step two which is banish them to the sofa, i.e. forbid them from sleeping in the same bed as you. If this does the trick, then the matter stops here.

THIRD: If all that fails, then you can hit them. Of course, there are many restrictions on this. And that is where the video by MEMRI starts.

For those of you haven't seen the video, the restrictions are as follows:

1) It cannot be done in front of the children, as that would instill poor values in the children and humiliate the mother in front of her own children.

2) He cannot cause her to bleed, nor break any bones, nor leave any mark or bruise on the body.

3) It is forbidden to hit the face and other sensitive areas.

4) And there is one more restriction, which is the miswaq rule, which I'll discuss shortly.

The Quranic verse that all this controversy is based upon--and the one quoted by critics of Islam--is as follows:

"Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because God has given them more than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore, the righteous women are qanitat (obedient to God), and guard in the husband's absence what Allah would have them guard. As for those women whose nushuz you have reason to fear: (1) admonish them; (2) then banish them to beds apart; (3) then hit them (lightly). But if they return to obedience, seek not against them any means. God is Most High!" (Quran, 4:23)

A couple things here: the underlined part means the husband's bed. And the second thing is that many critics of Islam think that we add the word "lightly" after "hit them" in parenthesis by our own "apologetic" will; they argue that the word "lightly" doesn't appear anywhere in the Arabic text, so we (the Muslims) are just trying to lighten the brutal nature of Islam.

This is based on their ignorance. The word "lightly" is not added in parenthesis because any of *us* added it. Rather, it was added by Prophet Muhammad [s] himself and thus considered a canonical understanding by us! What many critics of Islam don't know is that the Quran has general statements and Prophet Muhammad [s] specified them. A Muslim who takes the Quran's general statements and rejects Prophet Muhammad's specifications is considered by us to be a disbeliever. For example, the Quran says to bow down in prayer, but it does not tell us exactly how to bow down or exactly how to pray. In fact, the Quran doesn't even say you must pray five times a day. All of this was the specification given by Prophet Muhammad [s].

Here is the specification of Prophet Muhammad [s] with regards to the hitting verse (which he gave in his last year before he died):

"Lo! My last recommendation to you is that you should treat women well. Truly they are your helpmates, and you have no right over them beyond that--except if they commit fahisha mubina. If they do, then refuse to share their beds and fadribuhunna darban ghayra mubarrih. Then, if they desist, do not show them hostility any longer. Lo! you have a right over your women and they have a right over you. Your right over your women is that they not allow whom you hate to enter your bed nor your house. While their right over you is that you treat them excellently in their garb and provision." (Sahih al-Muslim)

I'm going to explain what the underlined Arabic part means in a second....I've already explained earlier what fahisha mubina means, which also ties into the not allowing anyone to enter your bed. But notice that in ALL OTHER INSTANCES, you (the husbands) have no right to seek any means against them. In other words, in ALL OTHER CASES hitting a wife is strictly forbidden. Not only is it forbidden, but the wife can go to the court for that. More on this in a bit...

Ok, let's talk about the underlined part. It is fadribuhunna darban ghayra mubarrih. The first part "fadribuhunna" is the same as the word used in the Quran, which means to hit. But the words in red are the specification added by Prophet Muhammad [s]--through divine inspiration--"ghayra mubarrih", which means "without (ghayra) painful violence (mubarrih)". *This* is why we add the word "lightly" in parenthesis in the Quranic verse, because it is the Prophet's specification, not because we want to dodge the critics of Islam in some dishonest way.

And the Prophet's disciple, Ibn Abbas, specified the word "ghayra mubarrih" even more, by saying that the pain inflicted on the woman can be no more than the pain a person feels if you were to hit him with a toothbrush:

"I asked Ibn Abbas: 'What is the hitting that is ghayr al-mubarrih?' He replied: '[With] the siwak [toothbrush] and the like.'" (Tafseer at-Tabari)

Based on this this, the Islamic scholars have said that not only must the hitting be light, but they defined what the word "light" means. It means the pain equivalent to (the like of) that when getting hit by a toothbrush, which just stings. One can check the tafseers (commentaries) of Ibn Katheer, Suyuti, Tabari, and Qurtubi to confirm this. There is consensus on this.

One more point: in Islam, a woman can seek a divorce if her husband is abusive to her. In classical Christianity, this is not the case. In fact, according to the Christian texts, a woman CANNOT seek a divorce for any reason other than if he (the husband) cheats on her. So if a husband beat his wife up, she could not even leave him. It was only in the 1880's that finally women were allowed to separate from their husbands (but NOT divorce) and only if her life was in danger (not if he just roughed her up a bit):

1880s: In England, the law is changed to allow a wife who had been habitually beaten by her husband to the point of "endangering her life" to separate from him, but cannot divorce him.

http://www.mincava.umn.edu/documents.../herstory.html

On the other hand, Islam allows a woman to initiate a divorce even if just for the reason that she dislikes him a great deal such that she finds it unbearable to be with him. So if a Muslim husband beats his wife, she can seek a divorce immediately and that is the end of that. But again, I am not trying to imply that Christianity is this or that...rather, Christians are some of the softest people I have ever met, and there is obviously something about their religion which teaches that. Christianity and the Bible have a lot of beautiful things, and we should rightfully think of it in that way. Unfortunately, Islam has a very bad image nowadays--due to the media--and simply because of being "the other". So I just like to put them side-by-side, to make people think to themselves "hey, are we really being intellectually honest here when we think so lowly of 'the other' when we have similar issues in our religion, or our own history, etc?" Getting perspective is something that builds bridges, if done correctly. As Jesus [as] said in the Bible, look at the splinter in your own eye first before pointing out that of your brother.

Anyways, in conclusion, Islam categorically forbids hitting one's wife, and Prophet Muhammad [s] was very particular about this. The ONLY exception was when God revealed to Prophet Muhammad [s] that a man may hit his wife if she commits fahisha mubina (he catches her in his bed with another man), and only then with those strict guidelines (no bruises, no bones broken, no marks at all, no bleeding, and the force of the blow can only be as hard as that of hitting someone with a tootbrush which is a stinging, nothing more). Any more than this, and the Islamic court should take action to divorce the pair and to punish the man guilty of the crime through Qisas (an eye for an eye).

It should also be noted that even the ONE exception allowed was by God Most High, and when it was revealed, Prophet Muhammad [s] said:

"I wanted one thing but God wanted another, and what God wanted is (always) best." (At-Tafsir al-Kabir)

I conclude with the following verses in the Quran about wives:

"Do not retain them (your wives) to harm them." (Quran, 2:231)

"On the contrary, live with them (your wives) on a footing of kindness and equity. If you take a dislike to them it may be that you dislike a thing, and God brings about through it a great deal of good." (Quran, 4:19)

"And among God's signs is this: He created for you mates from amongst yourselves that you might find peace and tranquility in them. And he has put love and kindness among you. Herein surely are signs for those who reflect." (Quran, 30:21)

In the Care of the Lord Most High,
-Saladin

[amcon]

ok, why God willing?

[BuffedGuy]

Peace be unto you, Amcon.

In the Name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

ok, why God willing?

It is a translation of the phrase "insha-Allah". Whenever a Muslim says that he will do anything in the future, he *must* say "insha-Allah", because only God controls the future. Nothing happens without His Will. Therefore, this is a manifestation of our understanding of perfect monotheism.

Glad to answer my own question!

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.

[gst528i]

Not sure if you missed it but i needed clarification on one thing i posted right before i said i will remove the links.
And yes Whats with good willing

[Amorphic]

why do almost all forms of religion result in a fanatical following that often results in violence and bloodshed?

the west demonizes muslims for this especially but im certainly not going to point the finger at any groups here

[Lemonada8]

Buffedguy thanks for all you have done, people fear the unkown and this helps clear up some issues...

[StoneGRMI]

Why did the largest base of Muslims and Arabs choose to live in Michigan? I've never asked any of my friends here that as I was never asked to ask a Muslim anything.

[BgMc31]

Very enlightening thread! The question I have is why the mistreatment of women in Islam? By mistreatment I mean women are punished much more severely than men for the same crimes. Also women aren't allowed many of the same rights and freedoms of men according to Islamic law. Why is that?

[BuffedGuy]

Peace be unto you, StoneGRMI.

Why did the largest base of Muslims and Arabs choose to live in Michigan? I've never asked any of my friends here that as I was never asked to ask a Muslim anything.

Interestingly enough, Detroit is said to have perhaps the second largest Arab population outside of the Arab world. I don't know how accurate that is, but that's what I have heard.

In my own city, most Muslims are either immigrants or first generation Americans. (Having said that, I'm a bit confused about if I would be considered first or second generation American.) But anyways in Detroit there are even third generation Muslims. Again, I don't know how they decide which is the first generation: is it the immigrant population or their children who were born in America?

Long story short though, they came for jobs in the auto industry, and then Arabs who came later would settle in Detroit so that they could mingle with other fellow Arab immigrants. It was a positive feedback loop.

EDIT: Actually, most Muslims in America are not from immigrant families at all, since the largest subgroup of Muslims is made up of African Americans. I was just talking about the groups other than them.

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.

[auslifta]

^^^ i asked previously, i think he is working on it