Hamas is at it again

[BuffedGuy]

i will

There is nothing worthy of being refuted in your post. Next time just randomly hit buttons on your keyboard, then press "submit reply." The matter will be the same.

[*RAGE*]

to be honest with you if i were a soldier and i was told to invade or attack a contry or a city based on false intelligence, claims or just to punish people. i will certainly with no doubt object/refuse to fight against these people. no matter where this order comes from. i have a very guilty conscience. why do you think this soldiers that comeback from iraq make suicide. cause they know they have commited wrong doing they can't leave with it.

I have served in combat,,,,,the suicide is not so much from the enemy but from what you experience over there such as seeing your best friend blow appart, and they come home and find their other friend had been sleeping with his wife......soldiler do not think much about write or wrong when the shit hits the fan.....it is more about how can i make it home.....I have said this before taken from a friend of mine.....all the policy and politics go out the window when the first round goes past your head...now on the part of you not going to fight in something you do not believe in (I have so much respect in that you would never now and i cant explain in writing) that comes from my heart.........

[BuffedGuy]

i beleive they this people who do this wrong doings they get punished in this life before the hearafter.

Our Islamic belief is that wrong-doers will be either punished in this life or the next. If God punishes them in this life, it is a Mercy for them. If however He gives them respite in this worldly life, then they will face a far greater torment in the next life. The more wicked a person is, the more likely it will be that he will receive respite from God (in this worldly life). Remember: there is no one more evil than Satan, and God granted Satan respite until the Day of Judgment. Satan asked for this respite, and God granted it to him. So the person who has been given the greatest respite is Satan, and we all know his fate on the Day.

[*RAGE*]

There is nothing worthy of being refuted in your post. Next time just randomly hit buttons on your keyboard, then press "submit reply." The matter will be the same.

now now buff dont get mad this is just a forum.......i put it out there for you and now you dont what to take it further.....you have no clue what you are talking about because you have not been there....that is the truth....walking away and just say i am hitting a keyboard........that is not like you take a brake and come back to it......

[BuffedGuy]

now now buff dont get mad this is just a forum.......i put it out there for you and now you dont what to take it further.....you have no clue what you are talking about because you have not been there....that is the truth....walking away and just say i am hitting a keyboard........that is not like you take a brake and come back to it......

frdhgloiwq3ehytgolredfwatyhgkl,/;k

[*RAGE*]

frdhgloiwq3ehytgolredfwatyhgkl,/;k

that is sad.....this thread has come to an end........

[BuffedGuy]

that is sad.....this thread has come to an end........

If you come up with any substantive arguments, I would refute them. Just replying with four words after every argument of mine is not a refutation, even if you think it is. If someone neutral were to judge this debate, he would judge not by who got the last word in, but whose arguments were left standing and whose arguments were refuted.

[Dinosaur]

I have served in combat,,,,,the suicide is not so much from the enemy but from what you experience over there such as seeing your best friend blow appart, and they come home and find their other friend had been sleeping with his wife......soldiler do not think much about write or wrong when the shit hits the fan.....it is more about how can i make it home.....I have said this before taken from a friend of mine.....all the policy and politics go out the window when the first round goes past your head...now on the part of you not going to fight in something you do not believe in (I have so much respect in that you would never now and i cant explain in writing) that comes from my heart.........

i have done two yrs mys self. i understand where coming from. it 's just sometimes when you know the cause of the war and you are sure that you are fighting for the good cause it helps a lot, while on the other hand, if the war is based on a myth / false claim you always question your self wether you are doing the right thing or not. this is how i feel if i were to go to a war.

[Dinosaur]

Our Islamic belief is that wrong-doers will be either punished in this life or the next. If God punishes them in this life, it is a Mercy for them. If however He gives them respite in this worldly life, then they will face a far greater torment in the next life. The more wicked a person is, the more likely it will be that he will receive respite from God (in this worldly life). Remember: there is no one more evil than Satan, and God granted Satan respite until the Day of Judgment. Satan asked for this respite, and God granted it to him. So the person who has been given the greatest respite is Satan, and we all know his fate on the Day.

truly, god is all forgiving, all merciful.

[*RAGE*]

i have done two yrs mys self. i understand where coming from. it 's just sometimes when you know the cause of the war and you are sure that you are fighting for the good cause it helps a lot, while on the other hand, if the war is based on a myth / false claim you always question your self wether you are doing the right thing or not. this is how i feel if i were to go to a war.

well put and i respect that....

[*RAGE*]

If you come up with any substantive arguments, I would refute them. Just replying with four words after every argument of mine is not a refutation, even if you think it is. If someone neutral were to judge this debate, he would judge not by who got the last word in, but whose arguments were left standing and whose arguments were refuted.

also well put.....much respect buff even if you do not believe it......

[*RAGE*]

truly, god is all forgiving, all merciful.

I also believe this....

[BuffedGuy]

I also believe this....

I do too. I pray that God guides all those who are wrong-doers and leads them to the path of righteousness.

[Dinosaur]

I also believe this....

good to have faith, it helps a lot especially during the time of crisis. at least you who to return to.

peace.

[BuffedGuy]

also well put.....much respect buff even if you do not believe it......

Notwithstanding our differences, I really think you have a good quality. It is an extremely rare (and good) quality for people to seek reconciliation with others. It is a golden quality. Don't lose it ever.

Peace be unto you.

[amcon]

Absolute nonsense. I have been highly consistent in condemning the wrong actions of Hamas (and even intensely debating with those who justify them), whereas you and others have yet to lay blame at the feet of Israel.

As for you saying "expensive missiles", let's not be silly now: they are the cheapest possible rockets that any army in the world uses....they are Chinatown style rockets. You keep repeating that statement, but like always, you fail miserably when it comes to producing proof. I quoted for you proof from a pro-Israeli website that the MOST expensive missiles Hamas produces cost $600, meaning their average missile is much less than that (about $400).

I also showed you that they only fire on average four missiles per day (and cited you the Israeli ministry's own website as a proof!), meaning that they spend less than $2,000 per day on missiles (high estimate). The population of Gaza is about 500,000. That means that instead of firing rockets, they could feed every Palestinian with a grand total of 0.4 cents per day. That is less than one cent. Less than half of a cent! So your entire theory is patently false and rejected. Yet you will continue to repeat it again and again and again. Why? Why do you remain stubborn upon falsehood?

From the beginning of the year until June 19, Israel was struck by 2,660 projectiles fired from Gaza 17 per day avg...

From June 19, when the tahdiya went into effect, to Nov. 4, the total was 65. (cease fire?)

But on Nov. 5 a new round of "negotiations" — with weapons — began when Israel struck what it said were militants tunneling under the Gaza fence. Hamas responded with a barrage of rocket fire that has continued for most of the past month. From Nov. 5 to Dec. 10, 237 mortar shells and rockets have been fired from Gaza at towns in southern Israel, prompting Israeli leaders to call for a tough military response. avg 200+ for that month

Also, since Dec. 10, there have been several dozens of rockets a day, so I'd estimate somewhere around 300-600 have been shot by now. are you kidding me???

The year 2008 saw a dramatic increase in the extent of HAMAS rocket fire and mortar attacks on Israel, with a total of 3,278 rockets and mortar shells landingin Israeli territory...

Hamas launched an upsurge in rocket and mortar attacks from Gaza once it declared an end to a truce with Israel on 19 December 2008. By 18 December 2008 Palestinian militants had fired at least 40 missiles into Israel since Tuesday 16 December 2008. On Wednesday 17 December 2008 no less than 24 rockets landed in the Western Negev desert area. On Thursday 18 December 2008 a further seven rockets landed in Israel. On December 24, five days after the lull arrangement ended, the cities of Ashqelon , Netivot and Sderot, the towns and villages near the Gaza Strip, the crossings and IDF bases were subjected to a massive rocket and mortar shell attack. At least 60 rockets and mortar shells were fired, most of them by Hamas. Palestinian militants fired over 40 rockets and 20 mortar shells at southern Israeli border towns in the largest daily attack since the end of a six-month ceasefire. Hamas responded by firing more rockets and mortars into southern Israel.

By 15 January 2009, since the beginning of the IDF operation in Gaza (Dec 27, 2008), four Israelis had been killed and 285 wounded by rocket fire. 771 rockets and mortars had been fired at Israel.

about the rockets:



The WeiShi [literally "Guardian", (WS) family of the multiple launch rocket systems were developed by China's Sichuan Aerospace Industry Corporation (SCAIC, also known as Base 062) in Chengdu, Sichuan Province. The WeiShi series includes the 122mm WS-1E with a ranage of 40km. The WS-1 series weapon system did not enter PLA service, and was not known to have received any orders from foreign customers. sounds expensive not 400 dollars

While news accounts reference these as Grad rockets [the Russian nomenclature] or "enhanced Katyusha", the rockets used in the attack on Ashdod must have a range twice that of the BM-21 Grad. Photographs of a rocket that landed near Gan Yavne, northeast of Ashdod on 28 December, do indicate that it was a 122-mm rocket. This is inconsistent with the idea that HAMAS was using Iranian-made rockets, either the Oghab with a range of 34-45 km or the Fajr-3 / Ra'ad with a range of 45 km....

On 28 December 2008, two impacts of artillery rockets were identified near the towns of Gan Yavne and Bnei Darom. The rockets were launched from the northern Gaza Strip and attained ranges of some 33-34 km. Examination showed that they were Chinese-made rockets with similar characteristics to standard 122-mm rockets. The maximum range of those rockets is up to 40 km.

some of what hamas has is cheap rockets...others are much more expensive

[BuffedGuy]

From the beginning of the year until June 19, Israel was struck by 2,660 projectiles fired from Gaza 17 per day avg...

From June 19, when the tahdiya went into effect, to Nov. 4, the total was 65. (cease fire?)

But on Nov. 5 a new round of "negotiations" — with weapons — began when Israel struck what it said were militants tunneling under the Gaza fence. Hamas responded with a barrage of rocket fire that has continued for most of the past month. From Nov. 5 to Dec. 10, 237 mortar shells and rockets have been fired from Gaza at towns in southern Israel, prompting Israeli leaders to call for a tough military response. avg 200+ for that month

Also, since Dec. 10, there have been several dozens of rockets a day, so I'd estimate somewhere around 300-600 have been shot by now. are you kidding me???

The year 2008 saw a dramatic increase in the extent of HAMAS rocket fire and mortar attacks on Israel, with a total of 3,278 rockets and mortar shells landingin Israeli territory...

Hamas launched an upsurge in rocket and mortar attacks from Gaza once it declared an end to a truce with Israel on 19 December 2008. By 18 December 2008 Palestinian militants had fired at least 40 missiles into Israel since Tuesday 16 December 2008. On Wednesday 17 December 2008 no less than 24 rockets landed in the Western Negev desert area. On Thursday 18 December 2008 a further seven rockets landed in Israel. On December 24, five days after the lull arrangement ended, the cities of Ashqelon , Netivot and Sderot, the towns and villages near the Gaza Strip, the crossings and IDF bases were subjected to a massive rocket and mortar shell attack. At least 60 rockets and mortar shells were fired, most of them by Hamas. Palestinian militants fired over 40 rockets and 20 mortar shells at southern Israeli border towns in the largest daily attack since the end of a six-month ceasefire. Hamas responded by firing more rockets and mortars into southern Israel.

By 15 January 2009, since the beginning of the IDF operation in Gaza (Dec 27, 2008), four Israelis had been killed and 285 wounded by rocket fire. 771 rockets and mortars had been fired at Israel.

about the rockets:



The WeiShi [literally "Guardian", (WS) family of the multiple launch rocket systems were developed by China's Sichuan Aerospace Industry Corporation (SCAIC, also known as Base 062) in Chengdu, Sichuan Province. The WeiShi series includes the 122mm WS-1E with a ranage of 40km. The WS-1 series weapon system did not enter PLA service, and was not known to have received any orders from foreign customers. sounds expensive not 400 dollars

While news accounts reference these as Grad rockets [the Russian nomenclature] or "enhanced Katyusha", the rockets used in the attack on Ashdod must have a range twice that of the BM-21 Grad. Photographs of a rocket that landed near Gan Yavne, northeast of Ashdod on 28 December, do indicate that it was a 122-mm rocket. This is inconsistent with the idea that HAMAS was using Iranian-made rockets, either the Oghab with a range of 34-45 km or the Fajr-3 / Ra'ad with a range of 45 km....

On 28 December 2008, two impacts of artillery rockets were identified near the towns of Gan Yavne and Bnei Darom. The rockets were launched from the northern Gaza Strip and attained ranges of some 33-34 km. Examination showed that they were Chinese-made rockets with similar characteristics to standard 122-mm rockets. The maximum range of those rockets is up to 40 km.

some of what hamas has is cheap rockets...others are much more expensive

I will respond after I finish studying a chapter, God-Willing.

[amcon]

Our Islamic belief is that wrong-doers will be either punished in this life or the next. If God punishes them in this life, it is a Mercy for them. If however He gives them respite in this worldly life, then they will face a far greater torment in the next life. The more wicked a person is, the more likely it will be that he will receive respite from God (in this worldly life). Remember: there is no one more evil than Satan, and God granted Satan respite until the Day of Judgment. Satan asked for this respite, and God granted it to him. So the person who has been given the greatest respite is Satan, and we all know his fate on the Day.

amen to that according to the new test!!!

[amcon]

I will respond after I finish studying a chapter, God-Willing.

ha, i fired a book back at you !!! keep it simple please all i did was cut and past the info took me 3 minutes...

[amcon]

just for the record = hamas booby traping schools and hospitals, why would they do that?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHhs9ihSmbU

[amcon]

this is why schools get bombed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UN9WzUc7iB0&NR=1

[Dinosaur]

this is why schools get bombed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UN9WzUc7iB0&NR=1

keep in mind that israel still didn't comply to this date with the u.n resolutiuon 242 to end the occupation of the 1967 territories. no country on earth could stand up for the right thing to make israel comply with the resolution. while it is backed 100% by the U.S.
what would you do if you were to be a citizen of that occupied country. plz, watch the video and before you make your own judgement think twice of what this people go through every single day with road check points in everywhere u go. more than 60% of the population are unemployed and 75% lives below the poverty line. furthermore, you need to show your identification card to the same people that OCCUPY your land, if you need to travel you go ask for a visa again, from the same occpier. how would that make you feel if you were one of them. i will trust that you will be fair and non bias this time. here is the video.

prt# 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCL6WdnuNp4

prt# 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mo2HW...eature=related

[Matt]

just for the record = hamas booby traping schools and hospitals, why would they do that?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHhs9ihSmbU

Rubbish, did you see the sophisticated wirering and explosive, Hamas doesnt have that you brainwashed fool.
Next you going to be telling us that thier being supplied by aliens..

[NightWolf]

And why not, israel are treating it as a giant jail, treat me in this way and i will fire rockets at you..

Do that, but be ready for the consequences,
israel pulled out from Gaza, why start firing rockets
again? do they WANT the israelis to go back in again?

[NightWolf]

I'm not justifying the firing of rockets.

Yes you are

[NightWolf]

the Palestinians kinda have a right to fight.

Sure they do, but then why bitch about it
when israel retaliates? In one min Hamas wants
peace, the next min they start firing rockets?

You know, firing them homemade rockets while Israel has state of the art military equipments thanks to the good 'ol American taxpayer. YeeeHah!

Thats war, its not meant to be fair, get over it.

[Matt]

Do that, but be ready for the consequences,
israel pulled out from Gaza, why start firing rockets
again? do they WANT the israelis to go back in again?

Do you think they fired those rockets for nothing? Do you not wander why? Do you not ask yourself why would they start firing rockets again?
Thier people are starving yet israel refuse to open the boarders, many people want to leave but again israel have told them thier not going anywhere. They live like animals and are treated like animals. You people just hear that they are firering and not once do you ask, well why are they doing this? Whats causing this to happen? Its like the blind leading the blind...

[NightWolf]

Do you think they fired those rockets for nothing? Do you not wander why? Do you not ask yourself why would they start firing rockets again?
Thier people are starving yet israel refuse to open the boarders, many people want to leave but again israel have told them thier not going anywhere. They live like animals and are treated like animals. You people just hear that they are firering and not once do you ask, well why are they doing this? Whats causing this to happen? Its like the blind leading the blind...

You are missing the point,

I understand WHY they are firing rockets
but do YOU understand why israel retaliates?

I ask again, WHY did hamas beg egypt for
peace when israel was still in Gaza?

Do they want peace or fire rockets?
They cant have both.

[Matt]

They want peace on the condition they get thier land back, as stated in UN resolution 242 dating back to 1967. They want peace on the condition thier boarders are opened so they can feed themselves. They want peace on the condition that they are treated like humans and not dogs. All israel has to do is give them thier basic human rights and all this will stop..

[alex18]

heres my bumper sticker

http://www.bumperart.com/ProductImag...Display-35.gif

[BuffedGuy]

They want peace on the condition they get thier land back, as stated in UN resolution 242 dating back to 1967. They want peace on the condition thier boarders are opened so they can feed themselves. They want peace on the condition that they are treated like humans and not dogs. All israel has to do is give them thier basic human rights and all this will stop..

This is the bottom line. This is the crux of the issue. Everything else is jibber jabber.

EDIT: MadMatt, you are one of the few who have truly understood the conflict. Your responses are excellent.

[BuffedGuy]

Do they want peace or fire rockets?
They cant have both.

They want peace along with their half of the land as given to them by the United Nations and international law.

[amcon]

keep in mind that israel still didn't comply to this date with the u.n resolutiuon 242 to end the occupation of the 1967 territories. no country on earth could stand up for the right thing to make israel comply with the resolution. while it is backed 100% by the U.S.
what would you do if you were to be a citizen of that occupied country. plz, watch the video and before you make your own judgement think twice of what this people go through every single day with road check points in everywhere u go. more than 60% of the population are unemployed and 75% lives below the poverty line. furthermore, you need to show your identification card to the same people that OCCUPY your land, if you need to travel you go ask for a visa again, from the same occpier. how would that make you feel if you were one of them. i will trust that you will be fair and non bias this time. here is the video.

prt# 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCL6WdnuNp4

prt# 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mo2HW...eature=related

charrif i am totally on board with what you are saying!!! my position is that both sides are at fault - and rockets are not the way to fix that... sadly i dont have a solution for them (either side) just prayers...

[amcon]

You are missing the point,

I understand WHY they are firing rockets
but do YOU understand why israel retaliates?

I ask again, WHY did hamas beg egypt for
peace when israel was still in Gaza?

Do they want peace or fire rockets?
They cant have both.

i couldnt have worded it better... that is my bottom line - good response

[amcon]

Rubbish, did you see the sophisticated wirering and explosive, Hamas doesnt have that you brainwashed fool.
Next you going to be telling us that thier being supplied by aliens..

ok name calling will get this closed... so chill out. stop being mad(i am so funny) any ways ...

sophisticated wiring ??? dude that was not real sophisticated to me... it was just what it was - booby trapped civilian areas... get mad at it but not at me... there were tons of videos like that...

... as for brain washed - so what your brainwashed to think israel did that? hamas is not the back woods fighters with bow and arrows people like to protray them as (the have milssles that have ranges of 40+ k!!! with guidence systems)

[Matt]

amcon let me ask you this. Lets just say that tomorrow morning you woke up to find that i had parked my trailer in your drive. Taken over your garden, kitchen living room and bathroom. I tell you that you can live in your bedroom and thats it, you cant leave unless i let you, you cant eat unless i let you. What do you do?? Just start by answering this very simple question????

[BuffedGuy]

amcon let me ask you this. Lets just say that tomorrow morning you woke up to find that i had parked my trailer in your drive. Taken over your garden, kitchen living room and bathroom. I tell you that you can live in your bedroom and thats it, you cant leave unless i let you, you cant eat unless i let you. What do you do?? Just start by answering this very simple question????

Amcon's response: you're both wrong.

[amcon]

Amcon's response: you're both wrong.

i"ll pray i actually didnt wake up in gaza... if i did i would put a foot in there ass, and burry them in the sand.

or i would just say get out, flex and they would run....

[Matt]

i"ll pray i actually didnt wake up in gaza... if i did i would put a foot in there ass, and burry them in the sand.

or i would just say get out, flex and they would run....

Lets just say that you threw a punch at me, i ducked and you missed, i then kicked shit out of you. But a few days later you threw another punch at me and the same thing happens, i kick shit out of you. Now yet again you threw another punch at me and someone sees this in the street and says amcon, why do you keep trying to hit him? Your only going to get hurt, and you say, i do it because he has taken over my house, he is making me and my family live like animals, i have to try and do something.. Does this ring any bells??

[Matt]

I am unable to write aswell as Buff so i hope this makes some sort of sense...