Hey 405: What is carb cycling

[jklipouse]

also what are you eating before workout and after on low days

[--->>405<<---]

Is this something that should be used for cutting body fat? iam currently at 22% (cailpers)...what about fruits? while cutting?

yes its for cutting but at 22%bf u dont need this diet IMO> if i were u id start a thread (if u havent already) post stats (age weight height bf%) + proposed diet. read sticky: dieting 101: cutting

IMO while cutting no fruit or dairy.

also what are you eating before workout and after on low days

on low days pre and post workout (and all day really) are meat and green veg.. thats it.!!

[Bulkn]

I plan on competing at the start of march next year. Ive never tried carb cycling before but it sounds like a good idea. Do you think its a good idea to use carb cycling to get down to say around 4% bodyfat??

If my week looks like this:
mon- gym, back
tue- gym, chest
wed- gym, usually legs sometimes shoulders
thurs- gym, usually shoulders sometimes legs
fri- gym, arms
sat- off
sun- off

What days would be best to arrange my low med and high carb days?

[--->>405<<---]

I plan on competing at the start of march next year. Ive never tried carb cycling before but it sounds like a good idea. Do you think its a good idea to use carb cycling to get down to say around 4% bodyfat??

If my week looks like this:
mon- gym, back
tue- gym, chest
wed- gym, usually legs sometimes shoulders
thurs- gym, usually shoulders sometimes legs
fri- gym, arms
sat- off
sun- off

What days would be best to arrange my low med and high carb days?

cycling carbs is by far the best approach i have found to remove body fat and get into single digits. the lowest ive gotten thus far with it is 7.8% but i have a plan for the next time i cut and hit that sticking point. ive got a co-worker who is a pro BB and he said when hes prepping for a contest the last few weeks leading up to the contest when he wants to get in the 4's he runs 5 consecutive days of no carb/veggie only carb and then on sat and sun refeeds at 800-1000g carbs each day. he also does 2x/day cardio.

this is what im gonna do next time i cut which wont be too long.

standard carb cycle (3low,1high,3moderate) until i hit a stick point (prob around 8%) and then switch into 5low, 2high with 2 a day cardio.

he also said he keeps his protein at 1.5g per lb TOTAL BODYWEIGHT and fats at 30-40g

[mockery]

I plan on competing at the start of march next year. Ive never tried carb cycling before but it sounds like a good idea. Do you think its a good idea to use carb cycling to get down to say around 4% bodyfat??

If my week looks like this:
mon- gym, back
tue- gym, chest
wed- gym, usually legs sometimes shoulders
thurs- gym, usually shoulders sometimes legs
fri- gym, arms
sat- off
sun- off

What days would be best to arrange my low med and high carb days?

#mon- wednesday low

#make wednesday shoulders

#thursday re feed

#friday through sunday moderate.

[Bulkn]

ok thanks for the info!
405, ill start off with the standard carb cycle then see how things go.. by looking at my workout week, do you think there should be certain days for low, med and high carbs?

[--->>405<<---]

ok thanks for the info!
405, ill start off with the standard carb cycle then see how things go.. by looking at my workout week, do you think there should be certain days for low, med and high carbs?

bulkn i can only tell u what ive done thats worked for me to get to 7.8%bf ive never been lower than that so getting to 4% is out of my area. maybe this next cut ill get into the 6's ..

however what ive done is run a 7day cycle.

the beginning part of the week is geared towards depleting muscle glycogen. this is a high rep high volume total body workout spread across 2 consecutive days.

your split targets one bodypart per day. the prob i see with this is if u do back on monday and chest on tues then by wed ur only gonna have depleted muscle glycogen in 2 muscle groups. the purpose of total body is to deplete all muscle glycogen which will force the body to resort to body fat for fuel. working one part per day i dont believe u will be able to take advantage of this in a 3day period.

according to lyle macdonald it requires approx 10-12sets (45+ secs under tension) to deplete muscle glycogen.

IMO ud do better to run a 2 day total body workout and then have a rest day/refeed and then run a 3day split..

ive been following the UD2.0 which is 4 total body workouts per week.. 2days high volume, 1 day 6-12 reps moderately heavy, 1 day 3-6 reps heavy, repeat.. it does not allow for any flexibility. other than this the above routine i think would prob work.

once u hit a sticking point (or should i say once i hit a sticking point) itll switch to 5days low/no carbs 1 body part per day heavy + 2x/day cardio. i cant say from experience if this will work but according to my friend pro BB it is what he does 4 weeks out for contest prep. he looks awesome. has won mr. georgia at least once.. if its good enuff for him its good enuff for me.

[Bulkn]

Well.. this is a bit more complicated than i thought.. I dont really like the idea of changing my workout but i see what you mean and how this works.
Ill have to do some more research and speak to some compeditors that come in good condition then decide what to do.
I could try that idea of low carbs mon-fri and high carbs sat-sun. The high carbs are clean obviously? but dont you think having 2 high carb days on non-workout days that alot of it will be stored as fat?

[--->>405<<---]

it can get a bit complex yes. for me the above cycle is fine because im not competing. for u its a whole difft ballgame! cheking with ur competitors sounds like an excellent idea! id be real interested to hear what u find out!

refeed days i was told bagels work well and have incorporated them. i also use cereal (maybe 300g carbs worth) and pasta... oats, rice..

[mockery]

guess my 2 cents wasnt good enough for the guy, ooo shot down! haha

[--->>405<<---]

hey man if hes competing neither is mine LOL

[mockery]

well the reality of 4% is diuretics , but between now and the final 14 weeks are night and day difference in terms of dieting.

[Bulkn]

guess my 2 cents wasnt good enough for the guy, ooo shot down! haha

haha sorry mate, i havent seen many of your posts before so i was unsure..

hey man if hes competing neither is mine LOL

But you know alot about diet, you're just going to have to get to 4% now to confidently answer my question :P

it can get a bit complex yes. for me the above cycle is fine because im not competing. for u its a whole difft ballgame! cheking with ur competitors sounds like an excellent idea! id be real interested to hear what u find out!

refeed days i was told bagels work well and have incorporated them. i also use cereal (maybe 300g carbs worth) and pasta... oats, rice..

I think most of them keep their diet the same every day except for having a cheat meal once a week but ill let you know.

well the reality of 4% is diuretics , but between now and the final 14 weeks are night and day difference in terms of dieting.

I wont be using diuretics, ive heard too many horror stories! Before i start dieting properly ill make sure im sitting sub 9-10% then illl give myself 7 weeks to try get to 4%

The leanest ive ever been was in the 8% range, which wasnt hard for me so i think i should be able to come close to 4%

[mockery]

I wont be using diuretics, ive heard too many horror stories! Before i start dieting properly ill make sure im sitting sub 9-10% then illl give myself 7 weeks to try get to 4%

The leanest ive ever been was in the 8% range, which wasnt hard for me so i think i should be able to come close to 4%

well you can get over the counter ones that are not bad, but you will need to probably. Because even if 4% is your target. u will find the best way to know when your ready is to pic your worst muscle group and use that and quad separation as your indication you are ready. U can only take calories so low before you need to eat to live. after that point you cant lower them any more, you have to keep adding cardio unill that problem muscle group "pops" and quad separation is clear and visible. Traveling to below 7% bf is hard, dont kid yourself.

what you need to focus on now is being lean right now. Roughly around 10 % body fat because that is manageable to keep and maintain between now and march. Don't go over 5% total body weight of your competing weight. Diet down to the 10% and start looking at what muscle groups are your weakest to start training them harder. If your delts are small, lay off traps and work the heck out of delts, avoid all weighted ab work out. and heavy lifts if you are squating and dead lifting over 315... bring those weights back down. FIND your weak points and make them grow. symmetry.. and remember when something grows it makes other parts look small. large traps = small delts. large delts = smaller looking chest... this is posing so learn and study symmetry

[Bulkn]

well you can get over the counter ones that are not bad, but you will need to probably. Because even if 4% is your target. u will find the best way to know when your ready is to pic your worst muscle group and use that and quad separation as your indication you are ready. U can only take calories so low before you need to eat to live. after that point you cant lower them any more, you have to keep adding cardio unill that problem muscle group "pops" and quad separation is clear and visible. Traveling to below 7% bf is hard, dont kid yourself.

what you need to focus on now is being lean right now. Roughly around 10 % body fat because that is manageable to keep and maintain between now and march. Don't go over 5% total body weight of your competing weight. Diet down to the 10% and start looking at what muscle groups are your weakest to start training them harder. If your delts are small, lay off traps and work the heck out of delts, avoid all weighted ab work out. and heavy lifts if you are squating and dead lifting over 315... bring those weights back down.Ill only bring them down if im having trouble lifting them FIND your weak points and make them grow. symmetry.. and remember when something grows it makes other parts look small. large traps = small delts. large delts = smaller looking chest... this is posing so learn and study symmetry

Thanks for the info, dont worry i got a pretty good idea of what im doing. Theres close to 10 guys at my gym that compete and 4-5 guys there that are or have been judges. Ive been watching shows since 2009 and just started getting some private posing practice.
Diet seems like a bit of a grey area so im trying to gather as much info and figure out what i think will work best for me.
Now ive just gotta keep putting in the hard work and keep practising!

[--->>405<<---]

hey bulkn u might fare well to consult Fireguy about contest prep..

also i askd my friend at work what kind of lifting he does and when and he said he ALWAYS goes heavy. always..

i think the carb cycle is gonna be ur best bet. the main question is what type. good luck and keep us posted!

the 5day low 2 day high + 2x per day cardio is gonna be my next move once i get to 8% again..

[mockery]

Hitting extremely heavy exercises that will target your obliques and core is not a good idea if you wanna gain symmetry, v-taper and a tiny waist.

[Bulkn]

hey bulkn u might fare well to consult Fireguy about contest prep..

also i askd my friend at work what kind of lifting he does and when and he said he ALWAYS goes heavy. always..

i think the carb cycle is gonna be ur best bet. the main question is what type. good luck and keep us posted!

the 5day low 2 day high + 2x per day cardio is gonna be my next move once i get to 8% again..

Yeah i was thinking of fireguy yesterday, havent seen him around in a while ill have a look.

Hitting extremely heavy exercises that will target your obliques and core is not a good idea if you wanna gain symmetry, v-taper and a tiny waist.

Most of all that is genetics. If you're not born with it theres only little you can do to improve it. If you're born with a big waist and hips its impossible to get it small. Same with shoulder width, If you dont have the broad shoulder genetics theres little you can do except work on your middle delts so as they grow they will make you look wider. Small waist + broad shoulders + good lats gives you the nice V taper.
The higher rep thing is a old myth. If you start doing that you will lose strength then start losing size.

[mockery]

I'm aware of what it takes to get a v-taper, and mistake ego lifting with lifting heavy and everything else. I didn't say anything about higher reps. When ur lifts are too high they work against u, compound lifts over 500lbs start to cause more trouble then thy are worth. Squats and bench at 315 and goo form will make u grow just the same with out the undue stress on joints, and tendons. It's not bro science, it's the reality of human anatomy.

[Tx89]

How do compounds at 315 make one grow just the same as compounds at 500+??
Given proper form, a healthy lifter and same number of reps etc
By all means I think its necessary to listen to your Body and dont use too much weight even if it may cause pain just because u can and want to show that u can. But if i can deadlift 500 properly that sure is more of a challenge than 315 imo

[mockery]

I guess people will learn from experience.

[Tx89]

Okay, and for a moment I thought I could stop pulling and pushing heavy sht around ;-)

[mockery]

Okay, and for a moment I thought I could stop pulling and pushing heavy sht around ;-)

you can, heavy lifts are important for strength gains and maintaining size while dieting. I know heavy squats make my legs grow like a mofu. the idea of lifting heavy is something preached till the end of time. but i look long term and when you are 50, 60+ you will be in a world of hurt all for what? true Hypertrophy can occur from linear weight progression and time under tension but ways of lifting weights at only 75% of you current heavy lifting with out the extra un necessary stress on ac joints, tendons and other such anatomy prized items. Further more using a heavy day and a lighter day in the same week has shown great results with many popular programs in gaining muscle size or maintaining muscle size.

Symmetry and heavy lifting can bang heads when it comes to the supporting muscle groups growing to big , ie: obliques. if you think the look of jay cutler or ron the fat gut coleman is hot... good luck with that. ill take the 28 inch waist of frank Zane any day. he still squatted, deadlift and all that jazz but with a different approach. People wanna train traps almost as bad as they wanna train chest and arms EVERYDAY.. and when on aas the traps just grow. Mine are growing 3 mm just typing this... again this throws off symmetry... also heavy lifts so heavy for say example SHOULDERS...are not even doing much of the work because your traps have engaged to lift the weight. So yes heavy lifts can make you grow big, at the same time they can hurt other areas you want to grow. Also with heavy lifts to a higher degree you need to eat like a pig to recover properly 4-6000 calories.. and before you say i beanch 405 and eat 2200 calories a day, go read up on how the CNS works, short term damage and long term. U can be one of those guys " ive been bulking for 12 years " and that's great too but if you decide to cut and u lose 25% LBM from a big bulk to cut apposed to body recomp was all that bulking and heavy lifting worth it?

id save heavy lifting for, cutting, aas deloads and or try and do a power/hypertrophy regiment in the same week. As for your question about a guy that can do the same reps of 315 as he could at 500 with perfect form... i doubt that would happen, of course you will increase your reps for the 315 lifts form 5-8 to 10-12 and have better stricter form. so that a no contest situation. Why obtain your pro card from heavy powerlifting balls to the wall when you can achieve through smarter training.

[Tx89]

Well thanks for the long answer.
While i agree with some of the points you made like heavy Lifting is Even more important when dieting, best to combine power and hypertrophy related workouts for optimum results or the benefits of balanced, aesthetically pleasing physiques, I have some points where I dont quite agree mate
-i dont believe that every single (heavy) lifter will be in a "World of hurt" later on in life. Some might, but (given form is perfect, form > weight) there sure are cases where People stay amazingly fit, healthy and in shape due to living this Lifestyle all theit lives. In the end its probably individual and u gotta listen to your body, Never train thru pain etc..
-im totally with u about disgusting midsection of cutler and the likes, but we both know that this is not mainly caused by heavy compounds, but massive AAS, GH and slin abuse.
-also I agree that key to hypertrophy in the end is progressive overload. But at some point in any serious lifting career this leads to more or less heavy loads. I can use all the intensity techniqes and TuT protocols I want, Someday there will be a point where I need to increase my load for new stimuli. Especially knowing that the mechanic stress applied to a muscle is at least as important for growth as the metabolic Stress
-concerning cns: The Point that really Stresses cns most and causes prolonged recovery time is training to or beyond muscle failure, no matter what load im training with. Heavy loads dont automatically cause more Stress than lighter weights. Its all about training close to failure, but Never reaching it. The muscles themselves recuperate within hours and adapt to the frequency you train quickly, CNS however does not. So if Training 4+times a week you gotta use some kind of fatigue management like cluster sets. I strongly believe the the typical 3-4 Day Split with each muscle once per week and a shitload of exercises and sets with every, at least the last Set to failure, and intensity techniques here and there is FAR more taxing on the body than 3-4 whole Body workouts with Focus on Big movements, but not going to failure.

Overall I just think that big compounds with heavy loads are crucial for developing not only an aesthetically pleasing physique, but also one that has some functional strength and Overall athleticism. But then again its such an individual sport and everybody needs to find a path both in training and nutrition that works for them thru trial and error.

[mockery]

Training to failure is what? the first part of that word is "fail" and you simply can not use linear progression with full body work outs and continue to add weight with out a stupid amount of calories every day and a good chuck of them as PWO nutrition. I would have to see scientific proof that bodybuilding and training for pumps and hypertrophy is more taxing on the CNS, then Olympic or specific strength training.

My views or opinions or collected data doesn't have to be excepted by anyone. It is what it is just my opinion, People being naive to injury or thinking injuries and long term wear and tear is only caused by poor form will have a wake up call. Ill keep using the dumbells in the ladies only room.

[Tx89]

Training to failure is what? the first part of that word is "fail" and you simply can not use linear progression with full body work outs and continue to add weight with out a stupid amount of calories every day and a good chuck of them as PWO nutrition. I would have to see scientific proof that bodybuilding and training for pumps and hypertrophy is more taxing on the CNS, then Olympic or specific strength training.

My views or opinions or collected data doesn't have to be excepted by anyone. It is what it is just my opinion, People being naive to injury or thinking injuries and long term wear and tear is only caused by poor form will have a wake up call. Ill keep using the dumbells in the ladies only room.

With Training to failure I mean muscular failure where you cant possibly squeeze out another rep without help --> as soon as motion gets slower and Form suffers i stop my cluster Mini Set.
And yes, of course you can. Thats exactly what im doing ;-)
I have scientific proof right on my desk in 2 German publications. Wont be of any use to you and to be honest I'm not in a mood to search for online sources in english, because I actually dont care if ppl believe me or not. Anybody interested can do their research, its all out there.
But anyways Science alone isnt the reason why I do what I do, but because I have found that for ME it works! Thats what matters to me, nothing else.
Well I dont see myself being anything close to naive, just finding out what works and keeping it and dropping what does not. Still waiting for that wake up call ;-)

[mockery]

405 since our body doesn't use a concept of time like how our conscious does, whats the minimum amount of days between carb reloads do you think? or perhaps use the word higher carb calorie day.

[--->>405<<---]

405 since our body doesn't use a concept of time like how our conscious does, whats the minimum amount of days between carb reloads do you think? or perhaps use the word higher carb calorie day.

i think it depends on what ur trying to do.

[mockery]

that's all that matters is if it works for you. When you go to compete for your pro card at the German nationals let us know so we can cheer you on

[GirlyGymRat]

very interesting thread

can carb cycle be without fasted cardio? ( i just cannot get up any earlier than 440)

[--->>405<<---]

very interesting thread

can carb cycle be without fasted cardio? ( i just cannot get up any earlier than 440)

yeh it can. on ur "low" days if ur eating only veggies and meat and have depleted muscle glycogen i think it doesnt matter a whole lot whether ur fasted or not. by that time u should be using body fat for fuel anyways.. it would be good to try to get ur cardio in on those days at least 3 hrs after ur last meal if possible.

on ur moderate days fasted cardio would be more beneficial.

on ur high carb day i wouldnt do any cardio!

[digsy1983]

U advise doin a full body depletion trainng on ya moderate carbs days. Why is this advised? I can see the liver glycogen and muscle glycogen view, but wouldn't this mean that workouts on low carb days suffer more? I was under the understanding that once muscle glycogen is stored its not transferable to other areas or even to liver glycogen?
I'm set up to do carb cycling when the straight deficit diet slows, but im trying to keep my same workout plan. (Probably trying to tick one too many boxes tho)

[digsy1983]

Also on low carb days would you still have 25g veg carbs prewo and 25g pwo?

[--->>405<<---]

U advise doin a full body depletion trainng on ya moderate carbs days. Why is this advised? I can see the liver glycogen and muscle glycogen view, but wouldn't this mean that workouts on low carb days suffer more? I was under the understanding that once muscle glycogen is stored its not transferable to other areas or even to liver glycogen?
I'm set up to do carb cycling when the straight deficit diet slows, but im trying to keep my same workout plan. (Probably trying to tick one too many boxes tho)

i dont think i advised doing full body DEPLETION on moderATE days. the UD2.0 is a 7 day cycle with 4 total body workouts but only 2 of em are depletion and they are day 1 and 2. the same goes for a standard 7day carb cycle. total body days 1 and 2 combined with no/veggie only carbs is the way to go IMO to fully deplete muscle glycogen.

it would be counter productive to do depletion workouts on moderate days IMO. u want to take advantage of the carbs eatn those days to try and replace/maintain/add muscle/LBM that may have been lost during the depletion phase.

Also on low carb days would you still have 25g veg carbs prewo and 25g pwo?

on low carb days u could do it that way but i typically hit around 65g carbs (about 1200g broccoli: 300g per meal x 4 meals) from veggie only (50g is just a number to shoot for) and i have veggies every meal except meal 1. on low carb days standard carb protocol (speaking for myself) goes out the window. i simply eat carbs meals 2-5 and dont worry so much about timing because they are mainly fiber anyways and the idea is to deplete glucose followed by glycogen. PWO protein is important but the carbs i just eat whenever for filler mainly.

its a bit of a difft animal IMO. hope this helps

[digsy1983]

Yeah loads Bud, thanks.

[Focused88]

Im about to run a cycle in a couple months and i want to add 12-15 lbs and lose 3-5%bf.
Would carb cycling be a good option for me, or should i do a regular bulk and up my cardio?
Awesome thread!

[--->>405<<---]

bump

[digsy1983]

405 can ya answer 113 + 114 when I get chance. Think the time is soon for me to switch from deficit to carb cycling. Just want to do it with my bases covered. Cheers.

[gearbox]

Also on low carb days would you still have 25g veg carbs prewo and 25g pwo?

Yes I would..

[gearbox]

Im about to run a cycle in a couple months and i want to add 12-15 lbs and lose 3-5%bf.
Would carb cycling be a good option for me, or should i do a regular bulk and up my cardio?
Awesome thread!

Are you running gear. If so, what? Depending on gear changes the advice