Steroids and Body Fat: I Disagree

[--->>405<<---]

I cycle at high BF%....fuk ya

hows the diet coming along??

[Bio-Active]

405 Looking great Bro!

hows the diet coming along??

[--->>405<<---]

405 Looking great Bro!

thx dude

hittin it hard! still a ways to go!

[GhostOfRome]

thx dude

hittin it hard! still a ways to go!

yeah looking mad good brother, how old are you?

[MickeyKnox]

thx dude

hittin it hard! still a ways to go!

Yup, looking solid brother. You have awesome muscle separation at the delts and upper triceps...im jelly.

[Metalject]

I cycle at high BF%....fuk ya

Asshole, lol!

[MickeyKnox]

lol!

[songdog]

Hey I like DQ but they dont have them here any more.And they dont fit in my diet thanx to 405 LOL

[Java Man]

A common theme you see on many message boards is that you need to be at a certain body fat before you use any steroids. The idea is that if your body fat is at a certain point or beyond:

1. You won’t be able to combat side effects
2. You won’t get any thing out of your cycle
3. You’ll be shortchanging your gains (whatever the crap that means…I hate the word “Gains” as it’s so often inaccurately used to describe and encompass all steroid use, but that’s another argument for another day)

Before I go any further this little discussion is not taking into account obese men, that’s a separate argument. The argument here is that if a man is 15% body fat or more using steroids would be pointless, disastrous or both. My point is this simply isn’t true. Let’s also keep in mind 15%BF is not considered unhealthy; in fact, medically men in the 15-20% are considered healthy, older men can sometimes slightly increase that and still be well within a healthy range.

So here’s the argument or at least the primary ones:

1. You won’t be able to control aromatization if you’re 15% BF or more…this is false. You may very well need to give it more attention, but it can still be controlled. You also must take into account the individualistic nature of man…many will have an easy time controlling it regardless of being a very low BF or even 15+.

2. You have to lose body fat first before you use any gear….False. This doesn’t take into account the muscle tissue lost that will ABSOLUTELY occur regardless of how well-planned your diet is. If you can control side effects, which you can, and if you can maintain more of your muscle mass while losing fat, which you can, you will burn fat at a more efficient rate and you will look much better as your diet progresses and even more so when it comes to an end.

A good example….through my years of bodybuilding I can think back on one year in particular where I allowed myself to gain far more fat in the off-season than I should have. I was desperate to put on more size and while I still ate very clean I simply ate too much and put on too much fat. I don’t know what my BF was at the end of that off-season but I can guarantee you it was every bit of 15% if not a little more. So I started my prep that year, it was a very hard diet, I’d call it brutal and while all contest diets are brutal it was more than it should have been because I got a little too fat. However, the end result was good, but would it have been as good if I had dieted naturally? Not a chance. I would have lost a lot of muscle mass, not a chance I could have gotten as lean and hard with as much muscle mass preserved had I been natural…it would go against the very laws of common sense to even imply it.

The long and short, there’s more to steroid use than simply putting on piles and piles of muscle. For some that’s the entire point and that’s OK too but it’s not the end all be all. If you can use gear to aid you in your pursuit while maintaining your health despite being 15%+ I see absolutely no reason why you shouldn’t.

This ends my rambling and point of view for today. I'm sure many will disagree and that's OK too. The way I see it, it gives us something else to talk about other than "should I use 500mg/test/wk for 10 or 12wks?"

I must respectfully - agree with you!

I have done it many times before and I'm doing it right now - cutting fat while gaining LBM. How? Dbol and Test E. Most ppl would say "that;s ridiculous - you'll just get bloated and fat". Nosce te ipsum... It's all about knowing thine own self. I'm old enough and experienced enough to know what works and what doesn't - FOR ME. That said, would I go telling a 22yo freshman to do this? No. They have to gain the experience themselves. We all (well I like to think all) reach a point where we just intuitively know what to do but every body is different, every body reacts differently to stimulus, every MIND is different. There is a lot of mind in this as well as body. Since I have reached that point, I'm not listening to most of the posted "advice" here anyways because that isn't meant for me. It's generalised.

[kelkel]

And nice weight/reps on your squats as well 405? Trying to catch me?

[--->>405<<---]

And nice weight/reps on your squats as well 405? Trying to catch me?

Thx Kel. Think about this: ive been cutting on TRT dose (for the most part) for the last 4 months. Wait til i get on a proper bulk and throw 500mg test on top. Wonder what thatll do for my numbers!!

[Natureboy71]

This exact thread has been covered a few times over the years but still there are a lot of good posts in this thread. Everyone is so different in how they react to AAS. I have cycled at 22%, 20% many times but found my BP always climbed high by the end. I personally like to cycle at 15% and no lower for a few reasons. For myself, I like my look at 15%. I don't want to be a GQ model and I like my overall physical size at 15%. I feel too scrawney at any less, but that is just me. I am a gym rat, not a competitor.

I have never had any E related issues so I, like many am just lucky that is the case. At 20% I just don't have the cardio in me to do the workouts they way I like. 15% I find is perfect and for me any lower and it's like my body is straining to keep the gains up and my joints hurt more. I also find that at 15% my strenght gain is fantastic in relation to how I feel.

Again, this is just my experience after 20 years of AAS use.

[bigsiv]

Great read guys nice to see a good debate and TGIF vast knowledge spread all over!

[Oldandbusted]

So if the magic number is 15% BF. I know it's not, but for arguments sake... How is that measured? I mean there is such an enormous variation between the different ways of measuring body fat, how does one know which to believe? A 15% person with calipers may be 18% on one of this bio electric scales and that same guy will likely test over 20% in a hydrostatic tank.

I'm not trying to offend anyone, or start an argument. I just felt inclined to point out that most people's BF is a bit higher than they think it is, and also as the stupid noob asking questions I want to know what the accepted standard of measurement is for the guys on this board so that my numbers will jive with everybody else's.

[Metalject]

So if the magic number is 15% BF. I know it's not, but for arguments sake... How is that measured? I mean there is such an enormous variation between the different ways of measuring body fat, how does one know which to believe? A 15% person with calipers may be 18% on one of this bio electric scales and that same guy will likely test over 20% in a hydrostatic tank.

I'm not trying to offend anyone, or start an argument. I just felt inclined to point out that most people's BF is a bit higher than they think it is, and also as the stupid noob asking questions I want to know what the accepted standard of measurement is for the guys on this board so that my numbers will jive with everybody else's.

You're right, most people are at a higher body fat than they think they are. I'd go as far as to say most serious bodybuilders are often at a higher BF than they think they are. You see this all the time when a guy gets to the point where he's ready to start dieting for a show. He assumes he's got 20lbs of fat to lose (just using a random number for examples sake) but as the weeks go by and he gets closer and closer to that 20lb mark he quickly learns he has at least another 10lbs to go if not more. More than likely before he started his diet he even told people when they asked that he was X% BF and he may have even truly believed it but most don't actually measure and if they do it's with one of those electronic pieces of garbage.

I think the electronic gizmos can be OK (depending on the gizmo) for the average person and give them somewhat of a decent idea...not a great accurate reading but perhaps decent. However, every gizmo I've ever seen, when the person is at an extreme end of the spectrum, obese or ripped to the bone, the gizmo often gives an insane reading. I've seen 250lb women who were every bit of 100+lbs overweight have their BF read at 20% or lower. The lowest I ever got my BF, or at least the best I ever looked my BF measured at 4.3% hydro and 4.7% calipers. The gizmo had me at double digit BF and a high double digit....and yes, I felt like death at that BF both physically and emotionally.

Anyway, I'm not a big fan of BF measurements as a rule...especially for the bodybuilder. Just go by how you look and how you feel. If you're a competitor and you look great and feel like crap, well you're probably ready. For the regular guy just go with what you like, what you like looking like and if you feel good and your health is good it really doesn't matter what your body fat is.

[warmouth]

Thx Kel. Think about this: ive been cutting on TRT dose (for the most part) for the last 4 months. Wait til i get on a proper bulk and throw 500mg test on top. Wonder what thatll do for my numbers!!

I personally can't wait for you to do this! Do it during the next comp, lol.

[warmouth]

So if the magic number is 15% BF. I know it's not, but for arguments sake... How is that measured? I mean there is such an enormous variation between the different ways of measuring body fat, how does one know which to believe? A 15% person with calipers may be 18% on one of this bio electric scales and that same guy will likely test over 20% in a hydrostatic tank.

I'm not trying to offend anyone, or start an argument. I just felt inclined to point out that most people's BF is a bit higher than they think it is, and also as the stupid noob asking questions I want to know what the accepted standard of measurement is for the guys on this board so that my numbers will jive with everybody else's.

I look at pictures and mirrors. I get measured, but its a waste for me. I stay at 15% year round unless on cycle. I can easily get to 10 or 12 with the right compounds to help aid a calorie deficit.

[warmouth]

You're right, most people are at a higher body fat than they think they are. I'd go as far as to say most serious bodybuilders are often at a higher BF than they think they are. You see this all the time when a guy gets to the point where he's ready to start dieting for a show. He assumes he's got 20lbs of fat to lose (just using a random number for examples sake) but as the weeks go by and he gets closer and closer to that 20lb mark he quickly learns he has at least another 10lbs to go if not more. More than likely before he started his diet he even told people when they asked that he was X% BF and he may have even truly believed it but most don't actually measure and if they do it's with one of those electronic pieces of garbage.

I think the electronic gizmos can be OK (depending on the gizmo) for the average person and give them somewhat of a decent idea...not a great accurate reading but perhaps decent. However, every gizmo I've ever seen, when the person is at an extreme end of the spectrum, obese or ripped to the bone, the gizmo often gives an insane reading. I've seen 250lb women who were every bit of 100+lbs overweight have their BF read at 20% or lower. The lowest I ever got my BF, or at least the best I ever looked my BF measured at 4.3% hydro and 4.7% calipers. The gizmo had me at double digit BF and a high double digit....and yes, I felt like death at that BF both physically and emotionally.

Anyway, I'm not a big fan of BF measurements as a rule...especially for the bodybuilder. Just go by how you look and how you feel. If you're a competitor and you look great and feel like crap, well you're probably ready. For the regular guy just go with what you like, what you like looking like and if you feel good and your health is good it really doesn't matter what your body fat is.

Awesome comment!

[MickeyKnox]

This boils down to educating yourself and being honest. If you handle those two requirements, you're home free.