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  1. #1
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    Quote Originally Posted by MR-FQ320
    ^^^^ right ok, I'm getting it- slowly lol. When is your workout ? Before meal 3 ? When is cardio ? Are you on cycle or not ? 3 low, 3 high ? I can't see pie charts, or weekly totals. Is it set to fully open ?
    Forgot to answer, I am in my 4th week of a 14 week blast (test cyp cycle).

    Cardio is usually immediately following weight session; however, on weekends I try to separate and do cardio later in evening.

    225, 6', 34, 13.8% bf, bench 320, squat 435, dead 465.

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    ^^^^ ok Tduff, hopefully words are with me a little better today and I can explain more clearly and you the benefit of my experience.

    Because you are on cycle, fat loss and muscle growth can and should be accelerated during carb cycling, the results are only limited by the numbers involved, I believe that 4*100 low and 3* 200 high could be more suitable for somebody who is not on cycle or on TRT dosages. Just my thoughts, let's get you in the groove and see what's happening. I just don't want to waste any time while on cycle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MR-FQ320
    ^^^^ ok Tduff, hopefully words are with me a little better today and I can explain more clearly and you the benefit of my experience. Because you are on cycle, fat loss and muscle growth can and should be accelerated during carb cycling, the results are only limited by the numbers involved, I believe that 4*100 low and 3* 200 high could be more suitable for somebody who is not on cycle or on TRT dosages. Just my thoughts, let's get you in the groove and see what's happening. I just don't want to waste any time while on cycle.
    Okay, and which way are you leaning for on cycle?

    225, 6', 34, 13.8% bf, bench 320, squat 435, dead 465.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tduff311
    Okay, and which way are you leaning for on cycle? 225, 6', 34, 13.8% bf, bench 320, squat 435, dead 465.
    Depends on goal mate, bulk or cut ?

    Oh and I think Mike XXL carb up protocol was a pre contest final week too
    Last edited by MR-FQ320; 05-08-2015 at 11:57 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MR-FQ320
    Depends on goal mate, bulk or cut ? Oh and I think Mike XXL carb up protocol was a pre contest final week too
    Cut, of course. But with possibly on lean gains, if it can be done.

    225, 6', 34, 13.8% bf, bench 320, squat 435, dead 465.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tduff311
    Cut, of course. But with possibly on lean gains, if it can be done. 225, 6', 34, 13.8% bf, bench 320, squat 435, dead 465.
    IMO, that will come down to workouts and volume, personally, I added the same body part in the morning, doing the compound movement, I am sure I have added size on - if not then defo shape, measurements later today. Maybe we could look at your am cardio and switch it to a weighted circuit, or like I do ,heavy compound In the morning, isolation in the evening? Bigger muscles move more weight more often.

    Remind me of your current workouts and splits please.

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    Day 1 HIT Chest
    Day 2 HIT Back
    Day 3 HIT Shoulders
    Day 4 HIT Legs
    Day 5 HIT Arms
    Rest
    Rest

    Cardio 4-5 days 20-45 min
    Abs EOD

    225, 6', 34, 13.8% bf, bench 320, squat 435, dead 465.

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    Hey MR FQ,

    Getting a little too concerned about muscle loss. It takes me EXTREMELY long to put any muscle on. I concerned it might be rash to jump so low.

    I am finishing day 8, 1000 calories cut each day, so already 8000 calories short of maintenance.

    I considering returning to a maintenance level but carb cycling aggressively and doing cardio daily. Do you think I am overly concerned and need to chill out?

    225, 6', 34, 13.8% bf, bench 320, squat 435, dead 465.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tduff311
    Hey MR FQ, Getting a little too concerned about muscle loss. It takes me EXTREMELY long to put any muscle on. I concerned it might be rash to jump so low. I am finishing day 8, 1000 calories cut each day, so already 8000 calories short of maintenance. I considering returning to a maintenance level but carb cycling aggressively and doing cardio daily. Do you think I am overly concerned and need to chill out? 225, 6', 34, 13.8% bf, bench 320, squat 435, dead 465.
    Bro, you just can't lose muscle like that overnight, it's biologically impossible, think of your muscles as balloons, the carbs are the air inflating the size of the muscle, now then , through carb reduction we are slowly deflating the muscle and drawing on fat reserved for energy, the refeed days refill the ballon back up to its original size less the fat already burnt. If they have not reached original size we just add in more carbs on high days. Remember that fat is in the muscles too, so we will be getting rid of this too, so a smaller look is to be expected. We can top up the muscles with glycogen / carbs when we want if the refeed days were not enough. So have you lost weight on the scales ? Have you lost fat ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MR-FQ320
    Bro, you just can't lose muscle like that overnight, it's biologically impossible, think of your muscles as balloons, the carbs are the air inflating the size of the muscle, now then , through carb reduction we are slowly deflating the muscle and drawing on fat reserved for energy, the refeed days refill the ballon back up to its original size less the fat already burnt. If they have not reached original size we just add in more carbs on high days. Remember that fat is in the muscles too, so we will be getting rid of this too, so a smaller look is to be expected. We can top up the muscles with glycogen / carbs when we want if the refeed days were not enough. So have you lost weight on the scales ? Have you lost fat ?
    Scale was at 225 this morning. Hard to say what that means though. Only a 1 pound difference since starting....then there's water fluctuation daily. I keep hearing that you can't avoid muscle loss with severe cuts in calories. Is this an incorrect understaffing?

    225, 6', 34, 13.8% bf, bench 320, squat 435, dead 465.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tduff311
    Scale was at 225 this morning. Hard to say what that means though. Only a 1 pound difference since starting....then there's water fluctuation daily. I keep hearing that you can't avoid muscle loss with severe cuts in calories. Is this an incorrect understaffing? 225, 6', 34, 13.8% bf, bench 320, squat 435, dead 465.
    You have not lost any previously built muscle fibre / tissue. Fat is stored in muscles too don't forget, we will be expelling this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MR-FQ320
    You have not lost any previously built muscle fibre / tissue. Fat is stored in muscles too don't forget, we will be expelling this.
    I understand your meaning. How far can this be taken before I risk muscle loss? It's vague to me as I hear notables such as KelKel and Marcus300 state going below maintenance risks muscle loss. I hope you understand my concern as I hear this.

    225, 6', 34, 13.8% bf, bench 320, squat 435, dead 465.

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    I am concerned over some of your food choices too, a lot of nuts and cream for coffee ? Is the macro split 40:40:20 on all days ?

    Can we add in another workout on a rest day ? An all over body pump ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MR-FQ320
    I am concerned over some of your food choices too, a lot of nuts and cream for coffee ? Is the macro split 40:40:20 on all days ? Can we add in another workout on a rest day ? An all over body pump ?
    The coffee creamer is only 10 cal a tablespoon. It's nondairy powder. Nuts are a weakness, but they make the calories total daily and have minimal carbs. I'm up for a to body pump or even an extra day devoted to weak spots. The macro split is not definitive. The calorie cap is. I like more fats to replace the lost carb calories.

    225, 6', 34, 13.8% bf, bench 320, squat 435, dead 465.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tduff311
    The coffee creamer is only 10 cal a tablespoon. It's nondairy powder. Nuts are a weakness, but they make the calories total daily and have minimal carbs. I'm up for a to body pump or even an extra day devoted to weak spots. The macro split is not definitive. The calorie cap is. I like more fats to replace the lost carb calories. 225, 6', 34, 13.8% bf, bench 320, squat 435, dead 465.
    Looking through the last weeks diary , mon - Weds was on point, thurs fri sat was about 500 over plan. But 500 less than a refeed (?) We've not quite nailed this yet. Just use the nuts to top fats up to 60g a day not level out the missing carbs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MR-FQ320
    Looking through the last weeks diary , mon - Weds was on point, thurs fri sat was about 500 over plan. But 500 less than a refeed (?) We've not quite nailed this yet. Just use the nuts to top fats up to 60g a day not level out the missing carbs.
    I agree I haven't nailed it. A few confusions:

    1) when I earn more calories via exercise, where can I use those newly available calories? Can any be allotted to carbs (myfitnesspal automatically increases all macros in accordance with earned calories) or are they strictly at the 100 and 200 marks daily regardless?

    2) see below pics for my low and hi calorie macro splits as they apply to scheduled days. I made this following your direction. I find it hard to keep my fats this low....May need to remove almonds from planned meals and minimize peanut butter on my Ezekiel bread.

    225, 6', 34, 13.8% bf, bench 320, squat 435, dead 465.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MR-FQ320
    Looking through the last weeks diary , mon - Weds was on point, thurs fri sat was about 500 over plan. But 500 less than a refeed (?) We've not quite nailed this yet. Just use the nuts to top fats up to 60g a day not level out the missing carbs.
    Sunday was net of 170 over
    Monday was net of 67 over
    Tuesday was net of 8 under
    Wednesday was net of 32 over
    Thursday was net of 135 over
    Friday was net of 164 under
    Saturday was net of 188 over

    Sunday to Tuesday were 1850 cal goals (100 carb).
    Wednesday to Friday were 2250 cal goals (200 carb).
    Saturday was back to 1850...over 188.

    225, 6', 34, 13.8% bf, bench 320, squat 435, dead 465.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tduff311
    Sunday was net of 170 over Monday was net of 67 over Tuesday was net of 8 under Wednesday was net of 32 over Thursday was net of 135 over Friday was net of 164 under Saturday was net of 188 over Sunday to Tuesday were 1850 cal goals (100 carb). Wednesday to Friday were 2250 cal goals (200 carb). Saturday was back to 1850...over 188. 225, 6', 34, 13.8% bf, bench 320, squat 435, dead 465.
    I'm still getting this right. Fats are difficult to keep low as I want to eat something other than just protein packed foods in place of the missing carb calories. Carbs used to make up 40% of my diet. They now only average 15% of a much smaller caloric diet. Fats also averaged over 100 daily, keeping them lower is hard as I created a habit towards many healthy fats.

    225, 6', 34, 13.8% bf, bench 320, squat 435, dead 465.

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    Attachment 156913

    225, 6', 34, 13.8% bf, bench 320, squat 435, dead 465.

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    Attachment 156914

    225, 6', 34, 13.8% bf, bench 320, squat 435, dead 465.

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    Ok so, when you have earned extra calorie intake from cardio, I personally prefer to take them in the macro split, so 50p/25c/25f on low days and 40/40:20 on high days, so effectively the weight loss is coming from cardio.

    This is MFP shortfall in planning and tracking and where a bit of black art comes in.

    The macros look good, remind yourself of your bodies requirements, 1-1.5 g / lb of protein and 0.3-0.4g / lb of fat, make the rest up with carbs. Carbs to be after workouts primarily

    I say we make inroads into fat loss first, then we can readjust once we've lost a few lbs of fat. Remember : you can't lose muscle overnight, it's only glycogen stores, if it is worrying you then have a refeed day, say 300g carbs, but work all the muscles ! Just keep the faith brother. It takes time and patience, listen to your body, monitor how it reacts to how you feed it, learn how the carbs effect you, then you can predict and manipulate the food quantities to how you you want react. Your doing a good job of a difficult concept to master.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MR-FQ320
    Ok so, when you have earned extra calorie intake from cardio, I personally prefer to take them in the macro split, so 50p/25c/25f on low days and 40/40:20 on high days, so effectively the weight loss is coming from cardio. This is MFP shortfall in planning and tracking and where a bit of black art comes in. The macros look good, remind yourself of your bodies requirements, 1-1.5 g / lb of protein and 0.3-0.4g / lb of fat, make the rest up with carbs. Carbs to be after workouts primarily I say we make inroads into fat loss first, then we can readjust once we've lost a few lbs of fat. Remember : you can't lose muscle overnight, it's only glycogen stores, if it is worrying you then have a refeed day, say 300g carbs, but work all the muscles ! Just keep the faith brother. It takes time and patience, listen to your body, monitor how it reacts to how you feed it, learn how the carbs effect you, then you can predict and manipulate the food quantities to how you you want react. Your doing a good job of a difficult concept to master.
    Understood. Thanks for explaining. Thanks for having patience with my learning curve here.

    225, 6', 34, 13.8% bf, bench 320, squat 435, dead 465.

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    Oh and try and add in more vegetables, fills out the plate and hardly count towards macros

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    Personally I wouldn't do anything drastic like dropping cals to harsh which will have a negative effect on your muscle tissue, ive seen it time and time again its muscle tissue suicide and imho these calorie restricted diets what many go on are disaster for retaining muscle tissue but great at cutting fat, now for me muscle tissue maintenance is the number one priority even in a cut or a bulk. Putting muscle tissue on is so fuking hard there is no way in hell I will waste it away with some of these stupid calorie restricted diets what someone posts or copies out of books. Everyone is different and responds in different ways so the first thing you need to do is see how your body responds and learn from this to contrast a plan to suit your goals but the priority is muscle reservation no matter what your goal.

    TDEE calculators are all over the internet so work out what yours comes in at and monitor yourself over the next 7-10 days if your not gaining or losing weight that's your sweet spot to work from, if things are moving in one direction or another change things up until you find your sweet spot of maintenance then work off that to suit your goals. First thing I would do is keep your cals the same but introduce a cardio regime what will put you in a deficit which will start the leaning process off while maintaining your tissue. Once you have come to a brick wall with your gains increase the cardio and slowly drop some of your cals, a carb cycling approach like ive shown you will do wonders IMHO and will also help to maintain your tissue which is key remember you don't want to lose all that weight and a load of muscle tissue which is very common that's why so many go around in circles of gaining and losing and never end up going any further forward because they are stuck or don't know how to cut properly, they just read out of book how you should cut but we are all different and that's why monitoring your response and how your body reacts is key.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marcus300
    Everyone is different and responds in different ways so the first thing you need to do is see how your body responds and learn from this to contrast a plan to suit your goals but the priority is muscle reservation no matter what your goal.

    First thing I would do is keep your cals the same but introduce a cardio regime what will put you in a deficit which will start the leaning process off while maintaining your tissue.

    Once you have come to a brick wall with your gains increase the cardio and slowly drop some of your cals, a carb cycling approach like ive shown you will do wonders IMHO and will also help to maintain your tissue

    remember you don't want to lose all that weight and a load of muscle tissue which is very common

    that's why monitoring your response and how your body reacts is key.
    Thanks for taking the time to share your experience and knowledge, Marcus. That means a lot.

    It appears that when you use cardio to increase fat loss, you don't consider those burned calories earned for re-consumption? I'm assuming then that you find your maintenance accounting for the extra calories burned weight lifting.

    Following this, if you are cutting at maintenance, then he cardio actually puts you into a caloric deficit. For instance, if I ran 45 minutes I'd then be in about a 700 calorie deficit.

    So, what I am currently doing is similar to your approach. I start with a 1000 deficit, but then I earn about 300 calories weightlifting and 5-700 doing cardio. This increases my consumption to my maintenance level. Seems we are just approaching from different sides and serving at the same result. My calculated TDEE does not account for weight lifting calorie needs, it is just my baseline without exercise.

    The only difference is that I've jumped right into carb cycling with a cardio induced caloric deficit. Whereas you recommend doing carb cycling after the cardio induced deficit has ceased to produce results.

    Am I following this all correctly? If so, it appears I could already be following your recommendations, just calculated the steps differently.

    225, 6', 34, 13.8% bf, bench 320, squat 435, dead 465.

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    Hardest day of the diet was yesterday. I was getting crabby from low carbs and growing appetite. Green tea with Stevia helped a bit.

    Couldn't even earn extra calories from weights as the fire burn on my armpit was too fresh. Did a little biking though pulling kids on trailer. That earned me a frozen yogurt....wife and kids wanted to hit ice cream shop (Mother's Day treat).

    Great session back at weights this morning. Healed good so far.

    225, 6', 34, 13.8% bf, bench 320, squat 435, dead 465.

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    Great workout this morning. Decided to sort pairing a smaller muscle with larger muscle days to give them twice weekly stimulation. Chest and biceps felt great this morning followed by an ab routine.

    Been working out fasted for past couple weeks and enjoy it so far. The pre-workout is much more intense on an empty stomach and pumps feel better. I add leucine to pre-workout to prevent muscle catabolism. I'm sure the fasted training will help with fat reduction as well....at least that's what I've read.

    225, 6', 34, 13.8% bf, bench 320, squat 435, dead 465.

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    Great day overall. After work I swung by the gym knocked out 30 minutes of jogging and did a little extra calf training... Despite the low carbs I'm actually feeling energetic. Actually getting better at controlling my macros now. Fats and carbs undercontrol protein super high

    225, 6', 34, 13.8% bf, bench 320, squat 435, dead 465.

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    MR FQ,

    You still there?

    Down 2.5 pounds now. Weighed in at 122.5 this morning. That was after hydrating.

    225, 6', 34, 13.8% bf, bench 320, squat 435, dead 465.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tduff311
    MR FQ, You still there? Down 2.5 pounds now. Weighed in at 122.5 this morning. That was after hydrating. 225, 6', 34, 13.8% bf, bench 320, squat 435, dead 465.
    122.5 ? Kg ? What ? You mean 222.5 lbs ?

    Is it fat loss ? How do u feel ? Have you had a refeed ? What about a cheat meal ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MR-FQ320
    122.5 ? Kg ? What ? You mean 222.5 lbs ? Is it fat loss ? How do u feel ? Have you had a refeed ? What about a cheat meal ?
    Sorry, 222.5, yes.

    No cheat meals or refeeds other than the 100/200 days as directed.

    Felt great yesterday. Feel pretty good today. Carb withdrawal affects me in evenings as my workouts are in morning, so that's where bulk of carbs are going.

    225, 6', 34, 13.8% bf, bench 320, squat 435, dead 465.

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    Have a cheat meal or refeed on 14 days. Start the process again. Are you happy with the high / low days ? Are you losing enough fat ? Have you kept muscle. I think it's a bonus to do both really outstanding. You can negate muscle loss on a cut and minimise fat accumulation on a bulk, if you manage to do both you've nailed it.
    The more you do this the more you learn about how your body reacts, then the fun starts.
    Last edited by MR-FQ320; 05-12-2015 at 11:45 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MR-FQ320
    Have a cheat meal or refeed on 14 days. Start the process again. Are you happy with the high / low days ? Are you losing enough fat ? Have you kept muscle. I think it's a bonus to do both really outstanding. You can negate muscle loss on a cut and minimise fat accumulation on a bulk, if you manage to do both you've nailed it. The more you do this the more you learn about how your body reacts, then the fun starts.
    Okay, thanks. What are my guidelines for this cheat meal? Planning a date night Saturday with the wife, dinner at a pasta place sounds perfect.

    As far as the high/low days, it has been very hard to stay under 100. I stay fairly close, but haven't made the mark yet. 200 days are bearable. It's been a change for sure as my average was 350 daily before. Every meal had a minimum of 150g brown rice. On my 100 days, only one meal has rice, and it's only 100g as my post workout rice milk whey isolate shake accounts for most of the rest.

    Hard to know for sure if I've kept muscle...I want to say yes. I am noticing slight minor changes in better definition from possible fat loss. It would appear that the body weight is making relatively descent weight loss....the opposite of what I'm accustomed to on cycle haha.

    225, 6', 34, 13.8% bf, bench 320, squat 435, dead 465.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tduff311
    Okay, thanks. What are my guidelines for this cheat meal? Planning a date night Saturday with the wife, dinner at a pasta place sounds perfect. As far as the high/low days, it has been very hard to stay under 100. I stay fairly close, but haven't made the mark yet. 200 days are bearable. It's been a change for sure as my average was 350 daily before. Every meal had a minimum of 150g brown rice. On my 100 days, only one meal has rice, and it's only 100g as my post workout rice milk whey isolate shake accounts for most of the rest. Hard to know for sure if I've kept muscle...I want to say yes. I am noticing slight minor changes in better definition from possible fat loss. It would appear that the body weight is making relatively descent weight loss....the opposite of what I'm accustomed to on cycle haha. 225, 6', 34, 13.8% bf, bench 320, squat 435, dead 465.
    Cheat meal : date with wifey - perfect. Order what you want, starters mains desserts, no or little alcohol.

    The 100g is tough and it's something to aim for, I would be tempted to give you more slack on the 200g days.

    Eat cheat meal and reassess after next workout.

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    Okay, thanks. One other thing, sleep has been rough since starting. Stomach wakes me up in hunger. So, that is suffering slightly.

    222.5, 6', 34, 13.8% bf, bench 320, squat 435, dead 465.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tduff311
    Okay, thanks. One other thing, sleep has been rough since starting. Stomach wakes me up in hunger. So, that is suffering slightly. 222.5, 6', 34, 13.8% bf, bench 320, squat 435, dead 465.
    Yeah it gets to me too, either drink water, protein shake, or eat ! Listen to your body.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MR-FQ320
    Yeah it gets to me too, either drink water, protein shake, or eat ! Listen to your body.
    Got it. Thanks MR FQ.

    222.5, 6', 34, 13.8% bf, bench 320, squat 435, dead 465.

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    Going to weigh in again tomorrow and see what changes there have been. Will take some pics this weekend and post. Will trim/shave chest for critique.

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    How many cycles have you done previously ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MR-FQ320
    How many cycles have you done previously ?
    This is only my second blast ever. I am finishing my 6th week now. Test cyp 500 (250 E3.5D) + anastrozole EOD + 250 hcg E3.5D. Only difference from last blast is I'm using hcg and anastrozole. My mistake for the first was no AI

    222.5, 6', 34, 13.8% bf, bench 320, squat 435, dead 465.

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