cycle affected by glutamine?

[byu]

Interesting post...informative too...
but can we get back to the point?
It seems that Big'r (gay or not) has posted sources with crediable research that shows that glutamine aids little to not at all in Protein synthesis...
And the studies that Meso and Pinn posted...I went through 5 of them...and they are all studies done of HIV patients, burn victims, adolescents with growth issues, and more hospitalized patients.

I'm not looking to get flamed...just using the board for what it was invented for...information exchange. I'd actually like to believe that the money I've been spending on Glutamine was actually working...

****.

[jezurd]

Jezurd
Why do you type like your mentally handicapped a few threads up and then you type like your from the streets in america in the next thread down. Is Big'r sitting on your lap and helping you type your posts? You two fags discust me.

Did you understand that you PUNK?

HHahahahahahahahahahahwhahahahahahahahahahahawhaha haha

[G-13]

omg what's up with that gay shit u still moan and bitch about. ffs stop using the word testicles, gay, ass, blablabla

Ohhh your the guy they are going to arrest for swallowing 2 barrels of monkey sperm.....

[Mesomorphyl]

As i stated before:

Post any study/link showing any of these supposed effects, and i will react by owning you!!!!!! My studies are waiting.
If i don't react by posting all studies(within 48 hours of your post) following 1 study proving any of your points, the mods can BAN me....... Agreed?


C'mmon big boy. I put my ass on the line. What's your move?
You have a big mouth. Now you can prove it actually does anything (and at the same time get rid of me).

My move would be that you only posted one study. You did not post the 20 you kept bragging you had... What is all studies anyway? If I find one that supports your case that would in turn mean you did not post all studies. How about just posting the 20 studies. Not references... You said all studies.

[big'r]

idd ik zit trouwens maar beetje te fokken...

Je had het wat anders moeten aanpakken, wat zachter moeten brengen
inplaats van zo uitdagend.
Maar hun hadden ook niet zo geflipt hoeven reageren natuurlijk.

And now go on with the flame-wars

Tja. Ik was - en ben - nogal zeker van mijn zaak. Dan kun je dat een keer maken.
Geen idee dat ze gelijk zouden beginnen met schelden

Maar het is nu belangrijker om mezelf weer op hun niveau te begeven. Dus daar komt ie:


Had trouwens niet verwacht dat ze op ordinaire scheldpartijen van Jezurd zouden ingaan....
Maakt het toch nog een leuk draadje. Daardoor besef ik eigenlijk dat ik geen inhoudelijke punten meer hoef te posten.
Dat zegt al genoeg over het niveau hier.
Snap ook niet dat de mods hier niet ingrijpen ???

Snap nu ook waarom een BigCat hier niets te zoeken heeft. Dit board draait niet om kennis, maar om schelden.

[Pinnacle]

Tonight,While all the great people on your BB board are sleeping,tons of AMERICANS will sign up to your board and shit all over it.It's a shame we have to do it,but we'll make sure we let everyone know why and who's to blame for it.


See ya round PUNKS!!!!!!................literally!!!

[big'r]

My move would be that you only posted one study. You did not post the 20 you kept bragging you had... What is all studies anyway? If I find one that supports your case that would in turn mean you did not post all studies.

First of all i apologise: It's 22 studies. Sorry about that.
I am one patient man, so i will "try" to explain this to you again:
YoU dId nOt pOsT AnY sTuDy At AlL pRoViNg gLuTaMiNE hAs AnY vAlUe wHaTSoEvEr iN bB-InG. sO yOu DiD NoT LiVe Up TO DtHeY cHAlLenGe.

The rest of what you are trying to tell me is beyond my reach, since i left childhood long ago.

How about just posting the 20 studies. Not references... You said all studies.

O, i'm sorry, i got you all wrong. You ARE smart. It took you 30+ hours to figure out these were no studies. But thumbs for you anyway.
This is one insane joke you're making now.

I'm sorry, but i'm only protecting you from yourself.
What are you gonna do with actual studies.....? Tell me. Pubmed is waaaaaaayyy over your head.
I posted the 22 references proving glutamine to have no BB-ing value at all. And did this in a brief, compact overvieuw.

Since you did not even read this, nor criticise it (which i completely understand, taking your mental reach into account), i did not think it would be necessary to post an actual study.
You realise a study is more than an abstract, so it's way to much of an intellectual challenge for you.

Maybe you should start reading up on the abstracts while someone smart teaches you how to read these ???




But please let's get back ontopic now, and discuss things as regards content.
What exactly do you criticise in the abstracts.

Btw. What did you think of the study proving carbs pre-exercise is more than benificial.
Please get into the actual contents for once. You never react to that. Only start flaming.

When i post a study proving you WRONG AGAIN as with the pre-workout shake, you strat crying over and over againg.
Honestly....... Tell me, what do you think of this study.

Criticism please back up with actual studies this time.
No flaming please. (Sorry if i'm asking to much of you now).

[IBdmfkr]

Bigr, why are you and your foreign buddies even here? And what is the point of posting a message in your language that no one understands, you could PM it and not waste space on the board.

[Mesomorphyl]

First of all i apologise

O, i'm sorry, i got you all wrong. You ARE smart. It took you 30+ hours to figure out these were no studies. But thumbs for you anyway.
This is one insane joke you're making now.

I'm sorry

Btw. What did you think of the study proving carbs pre-exercise is more than benificial.
Please get into the actual contents for once. You never react to that. Only start flaming.

When i post a study proving you WRONG AGAIN as with the pre-workout shake, you strat crying over and over againg.
Honestly....... Tell me, what do you think of this study.

I accept your apology.

It has taken you 30+ hours not to post the information supporting your first post in this thread. We asked for a source and you claimed 20 studies... Yet they are not here.

As for your carbs pre-workout... You do not listen to experience... Only studies... So even though people have told you by experience you still back this first insulin spike... I just don't understand how you can discount experience. Is is because you feel inferior?

I think anything from you would have to be from a study and not actual experience. You have zero. It is obvious.

[big'r]

Bigr, why are you and your foreign buddies even here? And what is the point of posting a message in your language that no one understands, you could PM it and not waste space on the board.

I can only speak for myself.
I like discussion, and i believe the only way to have a serious discussion is by comparing scientific evidence.

Why do i challenge people?
Because only then are they stimulated enough to actually get into the discussion as regards content.
If i did not challenge you guys, would you have tried so hard to find evidence backing up the claim glutamine as a supplement would work?

I believe people learn more by looking up studies/abstracts for themselves, than by just listening to others.

As for the (i totally agree unnecessary and stupid) flame war going on now, i have a question for you.
As i honestly answered your question, i hope you may anwer mine:
Why don't moderators give out warnings when someone flames another person at this board?
Let's say 5 warning = ban.

As you can see for yourself did i not start a flame war in this thread.
You know that in the thread regarding letrozole (i think it was this thread), i suggested to forget about this thread and take each other seriously again.
Your friends did not agree to this.
And when i opened a thread in the supplements section i got flamed again....
Each thread for me is a new beginning. Your friends see a healthy intellecual study ad an attack or something

You could not start this flaming on another board, everybody would be banned immediately.
Warnings would be fair. A warning from a moderator would get respect from me (even when i get a warning).

[Drummerboy]

i think you will notice, big r, that ppl respond differently to the WAY you challenge them... letting them know that you too may be wrong... no one likes a know it all with no backup... gotta step up and prove it, with experience too.

[Mesomorphyl]

believe the only way to have a serious discussion is by comparing scientific evidence.

As for the (i totally agree unnecessary and stupid) flame war going on now, i have a question for you.

You could not start this flaming on another board, everybody would be banned immediately.
Warnings would be fair. A warning from a moderator would get respect from me (even when i get a warning).

This is the challenge. You only believe in studies and not experience. I claim that eq and tren both ran at a gram per week will cause growth in humans. Now there are not any studies, yet even without experiencing those doses and only those compounds I will claim without your scientific evidence that it does work.

If you agree flaming is unnecessary and stupid... Why are you doing it? And coming on here perpetuating it?

So you should have been banned immediately? Like on your board? So you do not have respect for mods as they have not warned you yet?

[shortie]

Big R-Sad thing is I think the ****er may actually have a brain, too bad he has to screw it up with his mouth-Remind you guys of anyone? R*s* maybe? And jez you dutch cocklicker, lick the bottom of my sack and say thank you for making it so you didn't have to learn german as a kid you ****!

[Mesomorphyl]

Remind you guys of anyone? R*s* maybe?

Good detective work...

[IBdmfkr]

Why don't moderators give out warnings when someone flames another person at this board?
Let's say 5 warning = ban.

I think mods stopped reading this thread after the second page. Also, the members you are arguing with have helped 100's of other members and greatly contribute to this board, that is the difference why newbies get banned easier than Vets. You seems like an intelligent individual, Too bad your not helping on other threads instead of arguing on this one. BTW, your avatar is gay, as you admitted, why not switch it. While your at it, I think we'd all love to see a pic of who is behind the computer, since personal experience means nothing to you. A person's physique means a lot to me, it means they have taken different theories and ideas and applied them using trial and error, Giving them more credibility in my eyes.

[TallMan]

Tonight,While all the great people on your BB board are sleeping,tons of AMERICANS will sign up to your board and shit all over it.It's a shame we have to do it,but we'll make sure we let everyone know why and who's to blame for it.

See ya round PUNKS!!!!!!................literally!!!

no no, dont invade the board where I like to go, to own people like Big'r please :P

AND our board is secured with nuclear propellents aimed at the server where this board is hosted

[Knight1811]

Hooker,

The debate to summed it up: Does glutamine have any positive impact on bobdybuilders in relation to increasing muscle mass, recovery, increase protein synthesis or anything?

Meso and Pinnacle claim it does....however,

big'r claims the following:

Glutamine will not do sh*t:



-Glutamine production in muscle protein is 50% lower than assumed
-Most amino acids are precursors for alanine and glutamine synthesis in skeletal muscle
-90% of the glutamine you take orally never even makes it to your muscles. Glutamine supplementation decreases it's own synthesis and mostly turns itself into glucose.
-Glutamine does not prevent exercise-induced immune impairment. Carbs do. And glutamine does not influence hormonal levels
-Glutamine does not increase protein synthesis
-Glutamine prevents protein degradation but not more effectively than carbs
-Carbhohydrate or BCAA supplementation prevents decrease in glutamine levels during exercise
-Fasting decreases glutamine transport. And supplementation during fasting does not prevent muscle loss
-Glutamine does not enhance performance

Futhermore, big'r made the following challege:


Enlighten me. Any study in healthy subject (or even healthy rats) showing it will help under one of the conditions you posted. (Help means an increase in protein synthesis/muscle mass):
-during times of fasting
-before cardio/before bed (and an increase in GH does not automatically mean increased protein synthesis)
-Or you may prove more than 10% of oral glutamine makes it to the muscle

So, the question to you: Does glutamine do anything for bodybuilders in relation to increasing muscle mass, protein synthesis, recovery, or anything? Or is big'r on target with his assertion that glutamine in relations to the bodybuilding community "will not do sh*t?"

Thanks a million bro, I know you said you talk about glutamine in your upcoming book (which 99.999% of us are waiting for eagerly), but, this thread is attracting over a thousand viewers and we all want to know what's the deal with glutamine..NOW. And, i'm sure you are aware that your input is highly valued at AR thus it will shed tremendous light onto this debate since it is coming from you, Hooker.

Knight1811

[shortie]

Why should he bother getting into this childish diatribe? I will admit I would be curious to hear his answer, but if BigR is who I think he is, then Hooker will not get involved.IMO

[Knight1811]

Why should he bother getting into this childish diatribe? I will admit I would be curious to hear his answer, but if BigR is who I think he is, then Hooker will not get involved.IMO

He is not getting into a "diatribe," he is addressing the question of glutamine and it's usefullness or un-usefullness in the body building community.
I asked him to give some enlightenment in another thread and he agreed if I would bump the thread and ask a specific question. So, I did.
Nobody is asking him to get into a hollering match or "violent verbal attack."


Knight1811

[shortie]

Whoa, chill knight, I just don't think this is his scene, maybe he will respond, only Hooker knows. And as far as that goes this whole thread has been turned into a hollering match with the initial point lost long ago, you may wish to make a new thread with the specific question for him as to his thoughts on glutamine, that might get his attention and get you some answers.

[stevenb]

glutamine is found throughout the body and plays a very important role in protein metabolism. It appears that glutamine supplements may help bodybuilders reduce the amount of muscle deterioration that occurs, because supplementation reduces the need for other tissues to rob the glutamine that is stored in muscle cells.
It has been shown that intense physical workouts can reduce glutamine levels in the body by as much as 50%. Since the body relies on glutamine as cellular fuel for the immune system, supplementation can minimize the breakdown of muscle tissue and improve protein metabolism.

Bodybuilders and anyone who has been exposed to stress or physical trauma can gain from the intake of glutamine. Bodybuilders in particular use high levels of glutamine when working out resulting in a greater susceptibility to illness due to a weakening of the immune system.
Catabolism can occur if the body robs muscles of glutamine for use in maintaining the immune system. It therefore follows that glutamine supplements have an important role in keeping muscles building instead of deteriorating.

EVERYTHING EFFECTS A CYCLE. BEER, SEX, SLEEP, WHAT EVER THE HELL IT IS, IF THE PERSON TAKING IT LIKES IT THEY SHOULD TAKE IT. DIFFERENT THINGS WORK FOR DIFFERENT PEOPLE. BIG'R FIND ANOTHER SUBJECT TO FUSS ABOUT.

BY THE WAY IF GLUTAMINE DIDNT WORK THEY WOULD SELL IT AND PEOPLE WOULDNT BUY IT. I PLAYED BALL FOR AN SEC TEAM AND IF IT DIDNT WORK I ASSUME THEY WOULD HAVE NOT OF GIVIN IT TO US...

[Knight1811]

Whoa, chill knight, I just don't think this is his scene, maybe he will respond, only Hooker knows. And as far as that goes this whole thread has been turned into a hollering match with the initial point lost long ago, you may wish to make a new thread with the specific question for him as to his thoughts on glutamine, that might get his attention and get you some answers.

Shoot, sorry bro. I didn't mean to sound like a shiatball. I was just replying to your question. You have a great point about starting a new thread....this one has declined drastically (and that's an understatement)....but nonetheless, it has greatly sparked my curiosity about glutamine...the thing I buy every frickin month thinking it is helping me but IN FACT may be f*ckin me and my hard earned cash-money. If it is shiat, i will gladly toss it off my montly supplement list....it tastes like a$$ anyways.

Knight1811

[shortie]

Maybe this will shed some light on the subject, a cat named Bigg3r started roughly the same thread on another board, coincidence, I think not, but it got some interesting remarks http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m..._/tm.htm#83187

[Property of Steroid.com]

Glutamine is very useful to athletes. During maximal work loads, Glutamine levels drop, which is probably a result of it being preferentially shuttled into muscles (1). In addtion we know that an abundant supply of Amino's in our Post-Workout Meal will enhance the metabolic effects of excercise on muscle protein (2). Just based on the fact that we know we are depleting glutamine stores and that it is an essential amino acid should be enough...but given the fact that we know it's being reduced in a greater proportion than some other aminos and that our P-W/O meal is so important...we can safely conclude that it would be a great (important) addition to our P-W/O shake/meal. This is why Whey protein, especially whey protein isolates or hydrolyzed whey peptides, is perhaps the best protein based on its high bioavailability and its content of several critical amino acids, namely, glutamine, leucine, isoleucine and valine, which is especially evident in underfeeding or calorie restricted environments. If you take 500mgs of protein per day, it probably won't matter if it's from Whey or Pork rinds, as long as you are nitrogen positive...but When would let you be nitrogen positive (anabolic) at much, much lower doses

At rest, six amino acids are metabolized in muscle: leucine, isoleucine, valine, asparagine, aspartate and glutamate. Only leucine (probably the most anabolic amino acid) and part of the isoleucine molecule can be converted into acetylCoA and oxidized (Leucine, Isoleucine and Valine are also indespensible BCAA's....they are all Highly Anabolic, and if I recall correctly, Leucine is just especially so) (3)(4). Anyway, what happens is that the carbon skeleton of the other amino acids is used for synthesis of TCA-cycle intermediates and glutamine synthesis. The six amino acids are used to provide the amino groups and the ammonia for synthesis of glutamine and alanine, which are released by muscle in excessive amounts compared to the other aminos. So once again, we see that glutamine is being used at an excessive rate by our muscles. About half of the glutamine release from muscle originates from glutamate taken up from the blood. Glutamine produced by your muscle in this manner is an important fuel (as it is preferentially used (1)(5) and is a regulator of DNA and RNA synthesis in mucosal cells and immune system cells as well as aiding several other important functions in metabolism and immune function respectively(5)(6).

What all of this means, is that Glutamine is important for many aspects of energy metabolism, is used preferentially at rest, and in even more preferential amounts during excercise, it is important for Post Workout Muscle Recovery, as well as being a regulator or Immunological function and DNA & RNA synthesis. SO....yeah, it's important.

.

References:

1. Vnitr Lek. 1994 Jul;40(7):411-5.[The effect of work load on amino acid metabolism]
2. Am J Physiol. 1997 Jul;273(1 Pt 1):E122-9.An abundant supply of amino acids enhances the metabolic effect of exercise on muscle protein.
3. Henderson SA, Black AL, Brooks GA: Leucine turnover in trained rats during exercise. Am J Physiol 249: E137–E144, 1985.
4. Hood DA, Terjung RL: Effect of endurance training on leucine oxidation in perfused rat skeletal muscle. Am J Physiol 253: E648–656, 1987
5. Protein and amino acid metabolism in human muscle.
Adv Exp Med Biol. 1998;441:307-19. Review.
6.Glutamine and the immune system.
Amino Acids. 1999;17(3):227-41. Review.

[big'r]

Hooker,

The debate to summed it up: Does glutamine have any positive impact on bobdybuilders in relation to increasing muscle mass, recovery, increase protein synthesis or anything?

Meso and Pinnacle claim it does....however,

big'r claims the following:

Glutamine will not do sh*t:

Great!!!
I actually got people to show some criticism towards the things they were taught to be true.

So i actually reached my goal.

Question to you Knight1811:
What is the reason you read people state glutamine to work?
Less soreness? Or something else, what do they claim?

[Two4the$$]

I haven't been using it... (last time I tried to it was in my creatine mix ... which not only exploded (twice, I didn't learn that it expands the first time I did it) but tastes like ass.) But, after reading this, it's certainly going to be in my diet. You know, there are so MANY goddamned things that we [should] keep in our diets ... blah blah blah ... that at some point I just draw the line. I'd really like to find out the TOP culprits to success, and stick to those (duh, who wouldn't). But after reading this, it sure does sound like it's warranted to be in that "top 10" list... of course, number 1 & 2 on that list are TREN and TEST!

[Two4the$$]

Uh, I understood the word HOMO! lol.

[big'r]

References:

1. Vnitr Lek. 1994 Jul;40(7):411-5.[The effect of work load on amino acid metabolism]

The results of a comprehensive investigation of the effect of a 20-minute submaximal (Z1) and exhausting (Z2) work load in a group of 8 healthy volunteers on the amino acid and nitrogen metabolism indicate that, as compared with the mild and significant increase of alanine and drop of leucine (all P < 0.05) during the minor load, after an exhausting load a significant rise and concurrent drop of isoleucine, threonine, ornithine, leucine, serine, glycine, asparagine and glutamine (P < 0.01) occurs and a slightly significant drop of methionine and citrulline, while the total amino acid level is practically unaltered. The rise of alanine suggests the existence of a glucose-alanine cycle. The drop of branched amino acids is probably due to their enhanced entry into muscles, the drop of ornithine and citrulline is most probably due to inhibition of ureogenesis in the liver due to lactate and pyruvate accumulation. Exercise caused moreover a significant rise of serum ammonia and uric acid. N-urea changed only little and on average had a declining tendency. The results support data, that intense exercise increases the demands of the human organism for high quality dietary protein intake.

This study says glutamine levels may drop following exercise. It does not say a word about any value of supplementation, nor is glutamine administrated.



2. Am J Physiol. 1997 Jul;273(1 Pt 1):E122-9.An abundant supply of amino acids enhances the metabolic effect of exercise on muscle protein.

Six normal untrained men were studied during the intravenous infusion of a balanced amino acid mixture (approximately 0.15 g.kg-1.h-1 for 3 h) at rest and after a leg resistance exercise routine to test the influence of exercise on the regulation of muscle protein kinetics by hyperaminoacidemia. Leg muscle protein kinetics and transport of selected amino acids (alanine, phenylalanine, leucine, and lysine) were isotopically determined using a model based on arteriovenous blood samples and muscle biopsy. The intravenous amino acid infusion resulted in comparable increases in arterial amino acid concentrations at rest and after exercise, whereas leg blood flow was 64 +/- 5% greater after exercise than at rest. During hyperaminoacidemia, the increases in amino acid transport above basal were 30-100% greater after exercise than at rest. Increases in muscle protein synthesis were also greater after exercise than at rest (291 +/- 42% vs. 141 +/- 45%). Muscle protein breakdown was not significantly affected by hyperminoacidemia either at rest or after exercise. We conclude that the stimulatory effect of exogenous amino acids on muscle protein synthesis is enhanced by prior exercise, perhaps in part because of enhanced blood flow. Our results imply that protein intake immediately after exercise may be more anabolic than when ingested at some later time.

First person who can find the word glutamine in this study wins the price!



3. Henderson SA, Black AL, Brooks GA: Leucine turnover in trained rats during exercise. Am J Physiol 249: E137–E144, 1985.
I cannot find this study, maybe you'd like to post the abstract. You may mean this one (Leucine turnover and oxidation in trained rats during exercise.)

The effects of training on leucine turnover and oxidation were studied during rest and exercise in young, postabsorptive female rats. Relationships were primarily studied by the continuous infusion method, using [1-14C]leucine. Arterial blood was assayed for leucine specific activity and expired air was monitored for O2 consumption, CO2 production, and the specific activity of 14CO2. The rate of leucine turnover in trained rats was 70% greater than the rate of leucine turnover in untrained rats and was not affected by exercise. By virtue of a higher turnover, the rate of leucine oxidation was 40% greater in trained rats during both rest and exercise. Moreover, leucine oxidation was proportional to the metabolic rate and represented 30% of the leucine turnover at rest and 40-60% of the leucine turnover during exercise. In the same animals leucine turnover was secondarily assessed by measuring the fraction of the [1-14C]leucine dose contained in the hemoglobin pool 4 wk after infusion (occupancy tracer method). Occupancy values for leucine turnover were not different from those determined by the continuous infusion method. The results show that whole body leucine turnover is increased by training and that leucine oxidation is increased by both training and exercise.

Not a word about glutamine AGAIN!



4. Hood DA, Terjung RL: Effect of endurance training on leucine oxidation in perfused rat skeletal muscle. Am J Physiol 253: E648–656, 1987 Cannot find this reference either. This one comes close to it: (Effect of endurance training on leucine metabolism in perfused rat skeletal muscle.)

An isolated single rat hindlimb muscle preparation was used to examine the influence of exercise training on leucine metabolism during steady-state conditions at rest and during isometric contractions. Treadmill training increased the activity of citrate synthase in the hindlimb muscle by 40-45%. Leucine oxidation, measured as the rate of alpha-decarboxylation, was not different between trained (2.28 +/- 0.15 nmol.min-1.g-1, n = 9) and control (2.57 +/- 0.20, n = 9) muscle at rest. In addition, successive 40-min contraction periods at 15 and 45 tetani/min induced similar increases (50 and 100%, respectively) in leucine oxidation in both groups. However, trained muscle maintained a greater tension output (P less than 0.05) during contractions and exhibited a greater oxygen consumption (VO2) (P less than 0.05) during 45 tetani/min. Thus the rate of leucine oxidation, relative to VO2, was less (P less than 0.05) in the trained group. This response was probably related to differences in intracellular factors modulating branched-chain alpha-keto acid dehydrogenase, the rate-limiting step in leucine oxidation. Although our observed rates of muscle leucine alpha-decarboxylation can reasonably account for the rates of whole-body leucine alpha-decarboxylation of nontrained individuals found during steady-state tracer studies in vivo, this is less reasonably the case for the trained group. This suggests that a greater rate of leucine oxidation by nonmuscle tissues (e.g., liver) may occur in trained compared with nontrained individuals.

EEEEEH. Glutamine?



5. Protein and amino acid metabolism in human muscle.
Adv Exp Med Biol. 1998;441:307-19. Review.

Muscle proteins turn over slowly and there are minimal diurnal changes in the size of the muscle protein pool in response to feeding and fasting. Nitrogen balance and tracer studies indicate that protein oxidation and net protein breakdown (degradation--synthesis) is not increased during dynamic exercise at intensities of < or = 70% VO2max. An imbalance between muscle protein synthesis and degradation does exist during one leg knee extensor exercise and during two legged cycling in patients with glycogen phosphorylase deficiency. In these latter cases amino acids liberated from the protein pool are used for synthesis of TCA-cycle intermediates and glutamine. Six amino acids are metabolized in resting muscle: leucine, isoleucine, valine, asparagine, aspartate and glutamate. Only leucine and part of the isoleucine molecule can be converted to acetylCoA and oxidized. The carbon skeleton of the other amino acids is used for synthesis of TCA-cycle intermediates and glutamine. The six amino acids provide the amino groups and the ammonia for synthesis of glutamine and alanine, which are released by muscle in excessive amounts. About half of the glutamine release from muscle originates from glutamate taken up from the blood. Glutamine produced by muscle is an important fuel and regulator of DNA and RNA synthesis in mucosal cells and immune system cells and fulfils several other important functions in human metabolism. The alanine aminotransferase reaction functions to establish and maintain high concentrations of TCA-cycle intermediates and a high TCA cycle flux in the first minutes of exercise. A gradual increase in leucine oxidation subsequently leads to a carbon drain on the TCA-cycle in glycogen depleted muscles and may thus reduce the maximal flux in the TCA-cycle and lead to fatigue. Deamination of amino acids and glutamine synthesis present alternative anaplerotic mechanisms in glycogen depleted muscles but only allow exercise at 40-50% of Wmax. It is proposed that the maximal flux in the TCA-cycle is reduced in glycogen depleted muscles due to insufficient TCA-cycle anaplerosis and that this presents a limitation for the maximal rate of fatty acid oxidation. Interactions between the amino acid pool and the TCA-cycle thus seem to play a central role in the energy metabolism of the exercising muscle.

Not a word about supplementation again.
I know glutamine is an important amino acid. This does not mean supplemention has an additional value now does it?



6.Glutamine and the immune system.
Amino Acids. 1999;17(3):227-41. Review.

Glutamine is utilised at a high rate by cells of the immune system in culture and is required to support optimal lymphocyte proliferation and production of cytokines by lymphocytes and macrophages. Macrophage-mediated phagocytosis is influenced by glutamine availability. Hydrolysable glutamine dipeptides can substitute for glutamine to support in vitro lymphocyte and macrophage functions. In man plasma and skeletal muscle glutamine levels are lowered by sepsis, injury, burns, surgery and endurance exercise and in the overtrained athlete. The lowered plasma glutamine concentrations are most likely the result of demand for glutamine (by the liver, kidney, gut and immune system) exceeding the supply (from the diet and from muscle). It has been suggested that the lowered plasma glutamine concentration contributes, at least in part, to the immunosuppression which accompanies such situations. Animal studies have shown that inclusion of glutamine in the diet increases survival to a bacterial challenge. Glutamine or its precursors has been provided, usually by the parenteral route, to patients following surgery, radiation treatment or bone marrow transplantation or suffering from injury. In most cases the intention was not to stimulate the immune system but rather to maintain nitrogen balance, muscle mass and/or gut integrity. Nevertheless, the maintenance of plasma glutamine concentrations in such a group of patients very much at risk of immunosuppression has the added benefit of maintaining immune function. Indeed, the provision of glutamine to patients following bone marrow transplantation resulted in a lower level of infection and a shorter stay in hospital than for patients receiving glutamine-free parenteral nutrition.

That's jus great. I knew (and stated) glutamine may be of any value in sick people. Where's the value in healthy individuals?


Conclusion: NO DISCUSSION ABOUT GLUTAMINE IN HEALTHY INDIVIDUALS, SINCE THESE 6 REFERENCES DID NOT ADDRESS THIS POINT!

[big'r]

haha truman funny guy you are. Well I give it a rest, we' ve ****ed up a lot of page to this interesting thread. I hope we can go ontopic from now on

Werd! Let's hope so.

He jezurd wie ben jij eigenlijk op dbb?

[Property of Steroid.com]

References:

1. Vnitr Lek. 1994 Jul;40(7):411-5.[The effect of work load on amino acid metabolism]
This study says glutamine levels may drop following exercise. It does not say a word about any value of supplementation, nor is glutamine administrated.

If excercises preferentially drop levels of something called an "essential" or "indespensible" Amino Acid, then wouldn't that amino acid need to be replaced after working out?

Given that the definition of an "essential" or "indespensible" amino acid, what do you think one must do when you deplete that amino acid at a faster rate than the others?

[big'r]

If excercises preferentially drop levels of something called an "essential" or "indespensible" Amino Acid, then wouldn't that amino acid need to be replaced after working out?

Given that the definition of an "essential" or "indespensible" amino acid, what do you think one must do when you deplete that amino acid at a faster rate than the others?

Why replace it since you can easily prevent is's decrease? Even carbs do this:

Carbhohydrate or BCAA supplementation prevents decrease in glutamine levels during exercise
-Carbohydrate supplementation affects positively the immune response of cyclists by avoiding or minimizing changes in plasma glutamine concentration (G11).
-Following an exercise bout, a decrease in plasma glutamine concentration can be observed, which is completely abolished by BCAA supplementation (G12).
-BCAA supplementation during a triathlon completely prevents the decrease in plasma glutamine (G13).
-7 distance runners reduced muscle gycogen. A high carb meal (80% carbs) before 60 min. exercise increases plasma glutamine. A 14 h fast before exercise does not change plasma glutamine. Plasma BCAA did not change under either dietary condition (G17).

Furthermore supplementation will hardly benefit you:

90% of the glutamine you take orally never even makes it to your muscles. Glutamine supplementation decreases it's own synthesis and mostly turns itself into glucose.
-Systemic glutamine administration is ineffective in preventing muscle depletion, due to a relative inability of skeletal muscle to seize glutamine from the bloodstream. Transport from blood accounts for only 25% of the intramuscular glutamine pool turnover. In contrast, the intracellular pools of most essential amino acids, such as phenylalanine or leucine, derived largely from the extracellular space. Studies involving oral ingestion of stable isotope-labelled glutamine indicate that 50-70% of enterally administered glutamine is taken up during first pass by splanchnic organs (gut and liver). (G14).
-Glutamine orally is successful in elevating plasma glutamine at the peak concentration by 46%, which suggests that a substantial proportion of the oral load escaped utilization by the gut mucosal cells and uptake by the liver and kidneys. If the entire glutamine dose had been distributed within the blood (8% body wt) and extracellular fluid (20% lean body mass) compartments, then a 3-mM rise in blood glutamine concentration might have been expected, whereas plasma glutamine concentration was only observed to rise by 0.3 mM. This might suggest that only 10% of the oral dose reached the extracellular fluid compartments (G15).
-Infusion of glutamine increases plasma glutamine concentration and turnover only threefold, formation of glucose from glutamine increased sevenfold. Furthermore, glutamine infusion decreased its own de novo synthesis (4.55 +/- 0.22 vs. 2.81 +/- 0.62 micromol x kg(-1) x min(-1);P < 0.02) (G16).

As i stated before: supplementation is no solution to the possible problems provided by a decrease in glutamine levels in healthy people!!!
And the body can easily create glutamine when it needs to!!!
Supplementation does nothing. If you do not agree, post a study showing supplementation does anything.........

[MASTERDBOL]

after reading all of this thread....i truly believe big rectum is a pre-med student at the university of dumbass. probably an honor student as well.

[Property of Steroid.com]

There was a seminar in 1999 at Oxford University (you may have heard of it), examining the value of aminio acids and their importance in athletics. The first topic discussed was Glutamine. Here's the relevant informatinon that was discussed at one of the most prestigeous Universities in the world, by their Department of Biochemistry. In case your invitation was lost in the mail...here's the synopsis, written by a PhD from the Scottish Institute of Sports Medicine and Sports Science..basically, the information at this conference, presented at one of the worlds finest institutions of higher learning, disagrees with big'r. Isn't that odd?


AMINO ACIDS AND ATHLETIC PERFORMANCE: A Mini Conference in Oxford As Reported by: Andy M Stewart PhD

(from the Scottish Institute of Sports Medicine and Sports Science, University of Strathclyde, Glasgow, G13 1PP, Scotland.)








This report is a summary of a one-day conference about supplementing with amino acids, particularly branched chain amino acids, glutamine, and creatine. The conference was organised by Lindy Castell of the Department of Biochemistry, University of Oxford.


Glutamine
The day commenced with Eric Newsholme discussing potential roles of glutamine for cells of the immune system. Glutamine provides nitrogen for the synthesis of nucleotides required in the formation of DNA and RNA during lymphocyte proliferation and macrophage activation. Newsholme speculated that the high rate of glutamine oxidation provides precision in the mechanisms that regulate such synthesis. For moderate levels of physical activity the body is able to synthesize sufficient glutamine to meet demands, but in highly active or traumatized people the concentrations of plasma glutamine is lower than normal. He suggested that supplementing with glutamine may be important for reducing the risk of infection. Lindy Castell supported this idea when she presented data showing a decrease in the reported incidence of respiratory infections in athletes given glutamine (0.1 g per kg body weight) after a marathon. Newsholme also suggested glutamine supplementation might reduce exercise-induced tissue damage and help recovery from hard training.

Damian Bailey presented a study of the role glutamine might play in infection and acute mountain sickness in athletes exposed to altitude. Twenty-two elite distance runners were randomly assigned either to normal training or to four weeks of living andtraining at reduced pressure (equivalent to 1640 m). Another 32 physically active males were randomly assigned in a double-blind manner either to normal training or to four weeks of intermittent laboratory-based training while they breathed nitrogen-enriched air equivalent to an altitude of 1640 m. Tests were conducted immediately pre and post intervention. The incidence, duration, and severity of infectious illnesses increased and plasma glutamine concentration decreased only in the athletes living and training at altitude. Greater decreases in plasma glutamine were evident in the elite athletes. In contrast, plasma glutamine increased after intermittent altitude training, whereas there were no changes following normal training. These results suggest that the duration of the hypoxic stimulus has important implications for an individual’s well-being during altitude exposure. Bailey also suggested that the greater the aerobic conditioning the greater the likelihood of infection at altitude, and that symptoms (headache, nausea, sleep disturbance, lethargy) of acute mountain sickness seem to be more prevalent in the more aerobically fit athletes. Preliminary results from a lab-based study suggest that the degree of arterial desaturation may be related to the incidence of acute mountain sickness.

[big'r]

There was a seminar in 1999 at Oxford University (you may have heard of it), examining the value of aminio acids and their importance in athletics. The first topic discussed was Glutamine. Here's the relevant informatinon that was discussed at one of the most prestigeous Universities in the world, by their Department of Biochemistry. In case your invitation was lost in the mail...here's the synopsis, written by a PhD from the Scottish Institute of Sports Medicine and Sports Science..basically, the information at this conference, presented at one of the worlds finest institutions of higher learning, disagrees with big'r. Isn't that odd?


AMINO ACIDS AND ATHLETIC PERFORMANCE: A Mini Conference in Oxford As Reported by: Andy M Stewart PhD

(from the Scottish Institute of Sports Medicine and Sports Science, University of Strathclyde, Glasgow, G13 1PP, Scotland.)








This report is a summary of a one-day conference about supplementing with amino acids, particularly branched chain amino acids, glutamine, and creatine. The conference was organised by Lindy Castell of the Department of Biochemistry, University of Oxford.


Glutamine
The day commenced with Eric Newsholme discussing potential roles of glutamine for cells of the immune system. Glutamine provides nitrogen for the synthesis of nucleotides required in the formation of DNA and RNA during lymphocyte proliferation and macrophage activation. Newsholme speculated that the high rate of glutamine oxidation provides precision in the mechanisms that regulate such synthesis. For moderate levels of physical activity the body is able to synthesize sufficient glutamine to meet demands, but in highly active or traumatized people the concentrations of plasma glutamine is lower than normal. He suggested that supplementing with glutamine may be important for reducing the risk of infection. Lindy Castell supported this idea when she presented data showing a decrease in the reported incidence of respiratory infections in athletes given glutamine (0.1 g per kg body weight) after a marathon. Newsholme also suggested glutamine supplementation might reduce exercise-induced tissue damage and help recovery from hard training.

The key words here are suggested and might because you nor he can show us any evidence at all that this may be true. From which study did he conclude this?:

Glutamine does not prevent exercise-induced immune impairment. Carbs do. And glutamine does not influence hormonal levels
-Consuming 30-60 g carbohydrate x h(-1) during sustained intensive exercise attenuates rises in stress hormones such as cortisol and appears to limit the degree of exercise-induced immune depression. Convincing evidence that so-called 'immune-boosting' supplements, including high doses of antioxidant vitamins, glutamine, zinc, probiotics and Echinacea, prevent exercise-induced immune impairment is currently lacking (G31).
-Intracellular glutamine concentration may not be compromised when plasma levels are decreased postexercise. In addition, a number of recent intervention studies with glutamine feeding demonstrate that, although the plasma concentration of glutamine is kept constant during and after acute, strenuous exercise, glutamine supplementation does not abolish the postexercise decrease in in vitro cellular immunity, including low lymphocyte number, impaired lymphocyte proliferation, impaired natural killer and lymphokine-activated killer cell activity, as well as low production rate and concentration of salivary IgA (G32).
-Glutamine supplementation abolished the postexercise decline in plasma glutamine concentration but had no effect on lymphocyte trafficking, NK and lymphokine-activated killer cell activities, T cell proliferation, catecholamines, growth hormone, insulin, or glucose (G33).
-Nutritional supplementation with glutamine abolishes the exercise-induced decline in plasma glutamine, but does not influence post-exercise immune impairment. However, carbohydrate loading diminishes most exercise effects of cytokines, lymphocyte and neutrophils (G34).

Damian Bailey presented a study of the role glutamine might play in infection and acute mountain sickness in athletes exposed to altitude. Twenty-two elite distance runners were randomly assigned either to normal training or to four weeks of living andtraining at reduced pressure (equivalent to 1640 m). Another 32 physically active males were randomly assigned in a double-blind manner either to normal training or to four weeks of intermittent laboratory-based training while they breathed nitrogen-enriched air equivalent to an altitude of 1640 m. Tests were conducted immediately pre and post intervention. The incidence, duration, and severity of infectious illnesses increased and plasma glutamine concentration decreased only in the athletes living and training at altitude. Greater decreases in plasma glutamine were evident in the elite athletes. In contrast, plasma glutamine increased after intermittent altitude training, whereas there were no changes following normal training. These results suggest that the duration of the hypoxic stimulus has important implications for an individual’s well-being during altitude exposure. Bailey also suggested that the greater the aerobic conditioning the greater the likelihood of infection at altitude, and that symptoms (headache, nausea, sleep disturbance, lethargy) of acute mountain sickness seem to be more prevalent in the more aerobically fit athletes. Preliminary results from a lab-based study suggest that the degree of arterial desaturation may be related to the incidence of acute mountain sickness.

Still not a word about any value in supplementation now, is there?
Again: Please post a study showing the benifit of glutamine supplementation!

We can go through hundreds of writings from scientists. None of them has ever rightfully concluded glutamine to work from the references he added. (As i showed you after your first post.

[Property of Steroid.com]

Yeah, yeah....see...the thing is guys like you come on a board and hold a controversial opinion, and then go through this absurd 5-10 page long defense of it. But in reality, you're just rehashing the opinion of David J. Barr, CSCS, MSc. (Univ. of Warterloo) who used exactly the same studies as you have and held exactly the same opinions. The thing is, some people may be impressed by you (nobody here is, though), and some may even think you've produced this original, thought provoking thread. But in reality, you read an article (probably on T-Nation) about this other guy's thoughts on Glutamine, and you're passing them off as your own.

Is there a strong case for Mr. Barr's argument? Yes. Do I think that Glutamine is useful, on a cycle, regardless? Yes. Do I think you've done any original research or thinking? Well...I think that it's evident that Mr.Barr proposed all of "your" ideas before you did. And thats why he writes for T-nation, and you don't I suppose.

[Mesomorphyl]

Yeah, yeah....see...the thing is guys like you come on a board and hold a controversial opinion, and then go through this absurd 5-10 page long defense of it. But in reality, you're just rehashing the opinion of David J. Barr, CSCS, MSc. (Univ. of Warterloo) who used exactly the same studies as you have and held exactly the same opinions. The thing is, some people may be impressed by you (nobody here is, though), and some may even think you've produced this original, thought provoking thread. But in reality, you read an article (probably on T-Nation) about this other guy's thoughts on Glutamine, and you're passing them off as your own.

Is there a strong case for Mr. Barr's argument? Yes. Do I think that Glutamine is useful, on a cycle, regardless? Yes. Do I think you've done any original research or thinking? Well...I think that it's evident that Mr.Barr proposed all of "your" ideas before you did. And thats why he writes for T-nation, and you don't I suppose.

BOO YAH!

[Pinnacle]

Yeah, yeah....see...the thing is guys like you come on a board and hold a controversial opinion, and then go through this absurd 5-10 page long defense of it. But in reality, you're just rehashing the opinion of David J. Barr, CSCS, MSc. (Univ. of Warterloo) who used exactly the same studies as you have and held exactly the same opinions. The thing is, some people may be impressed by you (nobody here is, though), and some may even think you've produced this original, thought provoking thread. But in reality, you read an article (probably on T-Nation) about this other guy's thoughts on Glutamine, and you're passing them off as your own.

Is there a strong case for Mr. Barr's argument? Yes. Do I think that Glutamine is useful, on a cycle, regardless? Yes. Do I think you've done any original research or thinking? Well...I think that it's evident that Mr.Barr proposed all of "your" ideas before you did. And thats why he writes for T-nation, and you don't I suppose.

Hooker sooooo owned "big rectum".I fvckin' love it!!!!!!!

[RoidGut]

Yeah, yeah....see...the thing is guys like you come on a board and hold a controversial opinion, and then go through this absurd 5-10 page long defense of it. But in reality, you're just rehashing the opinion of David J. Barr, CSCS, MSc. (Univ. of Warterloo) who used exactly the same studies as you have and held exactly the same opinions. The thing is, some people may be impressed by you (nobody here is, though), and some may even think you've produced this original, thought provoking thread. But in reality, you read an article (probably on T-Nation) about this other guy's thoughts on Glutamine, and you're passing them off as your own.

Is there a strong case for Mr. Barr's argument? Yes. Do I think that Glutamine is useful, on a cycle, regardless? Yes. Do I think you've done any original research or thinking? Well...I think that it's evident that Mr.Barr proposed all of "your" ideas before you did. And thats why he writes for T-nation, and you don't I suppose.

that's what is called "laying the mack down'. Kinda makes you wish there was a giant rock you can crawl under now....

[Two4the$$]

Hmmm.... which one to choose?

Boooyah works tho. Dayum that was some devastation! Laughed my f0ing ass off!

[Jerzey]

Yeah, yeah....see...the thing is guys like you come on a board and hold a controversial opinion, and then go through this absurd 5-10 page long defense of it. But in reality, you're just rehashing the opinion of David J. Barr, CSCS, MSc. (Univ. of Warterloo) who used exactly the same studies as you have and held exactly the same opinions. The thing is, some people may be impressed by you (nobody here is, though), and some may even think you've produced this original, thought provoking thread. But in reality, you read an article (probably on T-Nation) about this other guy's thoughts on Glutamine, and you're passing them off as your own.

Is there a strong case for Mr. Barr's argument? Yes. Do I think that Glutamine is useful, on a cycle, regardless? Yes. Do I think you've done any original research or thinking? Well...I think that it's evident that Mr.Barr proposed all of "your" ideas before you did. And thats why he writes for T-nation, and you don't I suppose.

with class.. I love it