How long for receptors to clear?

[oswaldosalcedo]

Elaborate if you would Ossie.


~Pinnacle~

to my friend Pinn:




J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2003 Nov;88(11):5490-6.

Myostatin is a skeletal muscle target of growth hormone anabolic action.Liu W, Thomas SG, Asa SL, Gonzalez-Cadavid N, Bhasin S, Ezzat S.
Department of Medicine, Mount Sinai Hospital and University of Toronto, Ontario, Canada.

Myostatin is a cytokine that has recently been shown to selectively and potently inhibit myogenesis. To investigate the mechanisms of anabolic actions of GH on skeletal muscle growth, we examined the in vitro and in vivo effects of GH on myostatin regulation. Twelve GH-deficient hypopituitary adult subjects were treated with recombinant GH (5 micro g/kg.d) in a double-blind, placebo-controlled fashion. Body composition and physical function were assessed and skeletal muscle biopsies from the vastus lateralis performed at 6-monthly intervals during 18 months of treatment. Myostatin mRNA expression was significantly inhibited to 31 +/- 9% (P < 0.001) of control by GH but not by placebo administration (79 +/- 11%) as determined by quantitative real-time PCR normalized for the housekeeping glyceraldehyde-3-phosphate dehydrogenase gene. The inhibitory effect of GH on myostatin was sustained after 12 and 18 months of GH treatment. These effects were associated with increases in lean body mass and translated into enhanced aerobic performance as determined by maximal oxygen uptake and ventilation threshold. Parallel in vitro studies of skeletal muscle cells demonstrated significant reduction of myostatin expression by myotubes in response to GH, compared with vehicle treatment. Conversely, GH receptor antagonism resulted in up-regulation of myostatin in myoblasts. Given the potent catabolic actions of myostatin, our data suggest that myostatin represents a potential key target for GH-induced anabolism.

[shortie]

Ironic, I was just looking at this again yesterday. Was gonna bump it but here it is.

[needbigguns]

in all honestly (and im sure alot of you guys on here have done the same) i ran a 13 weeker stopping the test and deca at week 10, also run winny for the last 4 weeks (heard that lowered SHBG) - then did PCT with HCG - had about 5 weeks off in total including PCT, this cycle gains have been no where near what expected, upped the test from 500mgs to 750 also... im 6/7 weeks in and iv decided to throw tren in for the first time, i have never used to before so im running it at 75mg EOD, hopefully this will yield some gains due to never runing it before and it being so strong, i have 4 weeks worth of tren here, i will use that and then i plan on having a long time off as its pointless cycling and not making the gains you want...

- back to my question, due to me never running tren before and it being so strong, do you think this could yield some gains even though they have basically ground to a halt (even though they have not really been that good anyway this cycle round)

[needbigguns]

in all honestly (and im sure alot of you guys on here have done the same) i ran a 13 weeker stopping the test and deca at week 10, also run winny for the last 4 weeks (heard that lowered SHBG) - then did PCT with HCG - had about 5 weeks off in total including PCT, this cycle gains have been no where near what expected, upped the test from 500mgs to 750 also... im 6/7 weeks in and iv decided to throw tren in for the first time, i have never used to before so im running it at 75mg EOD, hopefully this will yield some gains due to never runing it before and it being so strong, i have 4 weeks worth of tren here, i will use that and then i plan on having a long time off as its pointless cycling and not making the gains you want...

- back to my question, due to me never running tren before and it being so strong, do you think this could yield some gains even though they have basically ground to a halt (even though they have not really been that good anyway this cycle round)

BUMP

in all honestly (and im sure alot of you guys on here have done the same) i ran a 13 weeker stopping the test and deca at week 10, also run winny for the last 4 weeks (heard that lowered SHBG) - then did PCT with HCG - had about 5 weeks off in total including PCT, this cycle gains have been no where near what expected, upped the test from 500mgs to 750 also... im 6/7 weeks in and iv decided to throw tren in for the first time, i have never used to before so im running it at 75mg EOD, hopefully this will yield some gains due to never runing it before and it being so strong, i have 4 weeks worth of tren here, i will use that and then i plan on having a long time off as its pointless cycling and not making the gains you want...

- back to my question, due to me never running tren before and it being so strong, do you think this could yield some gains even though they have basically ground to a halt (even though they have not really been that good anyway this cycle round)

Bump Again...

Will someone please answer my post

bump again

[Swifto]

in all honestly (and im sure alot of you guys on here have done the same) i ran a 13 weeker stopping the test and deca at week 10, also run winny for the last 4 weeks (heard that lowered SHBG) - then did PCT with HCG - had about 5 weeks off in total including PCT, this cycle gains have been no where near what expected, upped the test from 500mgs to 750 also... im 6/7 weeks in and iv decided to throw tren in for the first time, i have never used to before so im running it at 75mg EOD, hopefully this will yield some gains due to never runing it before and it being so strong, i have 4 weeks worth of tren here, i will use that and then i plan on having a long time off as its pointless cycling and not making the gains you want...

- back to my question, due to me never running tren before and it being so strong, do you think this could yield some gains even though they have basically ground to a halt (even though they have not really been that good anyway this cycle round)

Ok.

I'll have a crack.

If your doing back to back cycles I think it VERY important to include Proviron, due to its ability to bind to SHBG and increase testosterone levels. This is why i swere by it during PCT. Reduce SHBG and I think your on the right track. Also lower estrogen using a powerful 3rd generation AI.

My other thory on doing cycles back to back is use different compounds and other famillies of compounds. You used Test/Deca. A test-derived AS and 19-Nor derived AS. If I were to do this, I'd try to include a DHT-derivative on my next cycle. As you havent before.

You have used 19-Nor (Deca) in your last and Test-derivative. So..I think, run both again, but a highish dose of a DHT-derived AS. Change up your compounds too. So change Test Enan for Test Prop. Deca for Tren or NPP. And add a DHT, Anavar, Proviron, Winstrol, Masteron.

There was a member here who use to swere by this type of changin up compounds. He used to use Test Enan for 6-7 weeks, then change to Cyp, then Sust and maybe Test Prop. Reported good gains also...? There is hardly any science behind it, though intresting.

Its an idea. God knows if it will work. I guess there is "some" theory behind it.

[Bear-StrengthWithin]

bump

[needbigguns]

Well as i say im not really gaining much off my current cycle and i have went back to back iv got a feeling my SHBG will be high due to only having a month or so off, im running armiidex at 35/50mgs ED - I have added Tren at 75mg EOD (which i have never run before) 6 days ago now and i am still not feeling any side effects nore mass gains - will this tren be a waste if i dont lower SHBG with proviron? or could i still gain from this tren

[stupidhippo]

I do believe therea are other mechanisms involved than only SHBG... usually more time off means better gains... anyways.. im interested in how this goes but if u are tight on money I would save the tren for another run... u might not get what u want..

[needbigguns]

So even if i dont gain off the tren mass wise because of things such as SHBG should i still get stronger from it as well as the sides...

[Swifto]

But...If you dont gain, does that mean you wont get sides?

...No idea

This is a complicated subject we know little about.

[oswaldosalcedo]

SHBG synthesis


The relationship between serum levels of insulin and sex hormone-binding globulin in men: the effect of weight loss.

Strain G, Zumoff B, Rosner W, Pi-Sunyer X.

Division of Endocrinology and Metabolism, Mount Sinai Medical Center, New York, New York 10029.

It is known that there is an inverse relationship between the serum levels of insulin and sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) in women, but the relationship in men has not been reported. It is not known whether changes in the one cause changes in the other, or whether they change in opposite directions in response to some third factor. Because obesity raises insulin levels and lowers SHBG levels in both sexes, we proposed to study the cause-effect question by determining whether the relationship between changes in SHBG and insulin levels during active weight loss. We studied 70 healthy weight-stable men with body mass index (BMI) from 20.7-94 (normal, 22.5 +/- 2.5) and restudied 17 of them during diet-induced weight loss. Fasting serum insulin levels in the weight-stable men showed a positive linear correlation with BMI, increasing 1 microU/mL per unit increase in BMI (P < 0.0001). SHBG levels in the weight-stable men showed a negative linear correlation with BMI, decreasing 0.2 nmol/L per unit increase in BMI (P < 0.0002). In the weight-stable men, there was an inverse hyperbolic correlation between SHBG and insulin levels; SHBG (nmol/L) = 13.1 + [30.1 divided by insulin (microU/mL)] (P < 0.002). During weight loss, insulin levels decreased at an average rate of 6.1 microU/mL per unit decrease in BMI, a much higher slope than the positive slope vs. BMI in weight stable men. During weight loss, SHBG levels increased at an average slope of 0.43 nmol/L per unit decrease in BMI, much higher than the negative slope of 0.2 nmol/L per unit increase in BMI in weight-stable men. Values for the SHBG vs. insulin coordinates in the weight-losing subjects did not differ significantly from those expected from the SHBG vs. insulin equation in weight-stable subjects. The stability of the SHBG-insulin relationship during weight loss despite the profoundly altered relationship of each separate component to BMI strongly suggests a close metabolic link between SHBG and insulin. As SHBG is not known to alter the production or metabolism of insulin, whereas insulin has been shown in vitro to decrease the synthesis of SHBG, it seems a reasonable conclusion that the predictable inverse relationship between serum insulin and SHBG indicates that insulin controls SHBG synthesis in vivo.

[taiboxa]

Skullcrusher this bump is for u Chobo!~

[guest589745]

Its skullSMASHER, fu*k, how long have I been here.......?


j/k,Thanks hoto

I owe ya.

[taiboxa]

Its skullSMASHER, fu*k, how long have I been here.......?


j/k,Thanks hoto

I owe ya.

just send me some tren'n we all good!

[Montgomery]

Actually, it indicates that your SHBG level has increased...not that your receptors are saturated.

exactly . . your steroid hormone binding globuling levels are upregulated (increase) and your androgen receptors are downregulated (Decrease in number). Your body is always trying to achieve homeostasis (this is why recreational drug users need to continuosly increase their dosages - their body has downregulated the number of receptors in order to decrease the effects of the drug, thereby decreasing the departure from homeostasis with each dose) So, during and after PCT both your SHBG levels are decreasing back to normal, and the number of androgen receptors in your cells is increasing back to normal. Once this has occured (it takes a few months at least) you'll be able to shock your body again with the same dose as your last cycle.

Note that cellular response to any substance (steroids included) is based on two things :

1. the dose of the drug
2. the number of receptors for that drug.

Thus if you have fewer receptors, or a lower dose, you get a lesser response. Your body tries to maintain homeostasis by lessening the effects of a dose of extra hormone, and it does this by decreasing the number of receptors. This way, even if all the receptors are saturated with hormone the size of the response is still smaller. You need to allow this to reset before your next cycle.

Montgomery

[guest589745]

It's a myth androgen receptors do not get blocked up so no need to "clear" them out. In fact receptors increase in number when androgens concentrations increase. Other factors are involved estrogen and shbg levels etc.

Could you elaborate in detail please.

Reason I ask is,well,for two reasons.

1).In the past I've ran cycles far to close together and didn't respond well at all on the second go around,even upping the dose.If what you state is fact/true.Why did/does this happen?

2).I'm on year round.I cruise in between cycles at 250 mgs.I really need to bump my dose heavily(when on cycle) in order to see anything substanical.That tells me my receptors are somewhat flooded/saturated.


~Pinnacle~

Actually, it indicates that your SHBG level has increased...not that your receptors are saturated.

Can anyone explain why increased SHBG levels would result in difficulty in gaining muscle or something related?

SHBG= Sex hormone binding globuline right ?

[vitor]

Can anyone explain why increased SHBG levels would result in difficulty in gaining muscle or something related?

SHBG= Sex hormone binding globuline right ?

Higher levels of SHBG will result in reduced levels of free curculating testosterone, b/c it binds to it. By lowering SHBG levels there will be higher levels of free testosterone to reach androgen recpters.

[guest589745]

Higher levels of SHBG will result in reduced levels of free curculating testosterone, b/c it binds to it. By lowering SHBG levels there will be higher levels of free testosterone to reach androgen recpters.

Agh, I just read the whole thread to get what yu told me at the end of it lol.

[Tbone1975]

Not like anyone cares....but this is one of the best, if not thee best discussion about steroids that I've read on this forum. And I'm only half way through.

[shrpskn]

Excellent thread, well-deserving of a bump.

-ShrpSkn

[Wizeguy]

Great thread, very interesting info.

[guest589745]

Yes it is.