Very worrying

[RA]

It's not killing them if they are willing to die for the cause! People offered up their lives all the time in service of their gods for fertility, farming, war, etc. How is this mentality different?

Are you telling me we could not find 100 people willing to give their lives to cure cancer? How about 1000?

The morality you are using to argue this cause is respectable but flawed. When it comes down to it, the human race in itself is a living, breathing entity. When a human body needs to cure itself, it will destroy certain areas to protect the whole body. If this is what needed to be done to save the human race from cancer, I hardly see it as "murder".

But we are extremly off topic, back to abortion.

We are not off topic. We are killing innocent lives and people are now wanting to harvest their stem cells. Remember ladies and gents, we ALL started out that way. You can say its not a life but you were once the same. Does that mean your not a life?

Talking about abortion actually saddens me and normally I avoid the subject.

[Phreak101]

We are not off topic. We are killing innocent lives and people are now wanting to harvest their stem cells. Remember ladies and gents, we ALL started out that way. You can say its not a life but you were once the same. Does that mean your not a life?

Talking about abortion actually saddens me and normally I avoid the subject.

What you are doing is taking a stance on the fact that embryos are life, when in fact they are not! Embryos are a future human life, but an embryo cannot survive on it's own without assistance from it's mother or science.

It is a religious viewpoint that conception = life. Life, again, is CONSCIOUSNESS. It is EXPERIENCE. If abortion is already legal, explain to me why these embryos should be tossed in the trash rather than used to try to further humanity as a whole.

You make it sound as if evil scientists are kidnapping women and stealing their babies to take over the world.

I am a life because I have LIVED my life. I am a conscious entity aware that I make my own decisions and determine my own fate. My parents instilled in me morals and values and I have become self aware. Long story short, I understand I exist. A fetus does not. Miscarriages happen too, is that the killing of an innocent life?

[Kärnfysikern]

How is it killing them if they save the lives of 10 people, especially when they will never know otherwise?

Innocence is consciousness without knowledge of evil. Embryos are not conscious, but what better way to use an unwanted embryo than to save the lives of others! I don't agree with using abortion as a lack of responsibility, quite the contrary, I think women should only be allowed so many abortions before they are forced to give their children to adoption agencies, or something along those lines. But to say aborting a fetus is the "killing of the innocent" is trivializing the deaths of truely innocent people.

Good point.

What if not using that embryo means 10 people would die. Does that one embryo have more right to live than those 10 people?

[RA]

What you are doing is taking a stance on the fact that embryos are life, when in fact they are not! Embryos are a future human life, but an embryo cannot survive on it's own without assistance from it's mother or science.

It is a religious viewpoint that conception = life. Life, again, is CONSCIOUSNESS. It is EXPERIENCE. If abortion is already legal, explain to me why these embryos should be tossed in the trash rather than used to try to further humanity as a whole.

You make it sound as if evil scientists are kidnapping women and stealing their babies to take over the world.

I am a life because I have LIVED my life. I am a conscious entity aware that I make my own decisions and determine my own fate. My parents instilled in me morals and values and I have become self aware. Long story short, I understand I exist. A fetus does not. Miscarriages happen too, is that the killing of an innocent life?

NEITHER CAN A BABY!

And tell me this one. If we are only the sum of our experiences then why does a baby search for its mothers nipple when its born?

[RA]

Good point.

What if not using that embryo means 10 people would die. Does that one embryo have more right to live than those 10 people?

Not more. Just as much right.

[Mizfit]

NEITHER CAN A BABY!

And tell me this one. If we are only the sum of our experiences then why does a baby search for its mothers nipple when its born?

If what your trying to allude to is right then all women would have natural nuturing instincts and would not even consider abortion.

But that is not the case, and there isa real need for cell harvesting.

[Phreak101]

NEITHER CAN A BABY!

And tell me this one. If we are only the sum of our experiences then why does a baby search for its mothers nipple when its born?

Didn't you see the story about the wolf lady on yahoo news the other day? She was abandoned by her parents in Russia and, no joke, was found when she was 15 running around on all fours growling and barking like a dog. She now leads a somewhat normal life but, no embryo could do that.

Technically speaking, a baby CAN survive on its own, it will just starve, freeze, etc without assistance, but the fact is it CAN survive outside the womb, a fetus cannot.

As far as your last statement, instinct! Are you saying that your cognitive ability and intelligence is the same as a baby?? Of course not, because you ARE the sum of your experiences. I'm sure no baby has injected a gram of test into it's ass either!

[RA]

If what your trying to allude to is right then all women would have natural nuturing instincts and would not even consider abortion.

But that is not the case, and there isa real need for cell harvesting.

Tell me one woman who had an abortion that said it was mentally easy. I believe women do have the instinct, they just fight against it.

[Phreak101]

Not more. Just as much right.

How can the rights of 10 people be equal to one fetus? If anything, the lives of the people that have been touched by the 10 people that will die without the fetus serve as more collateral than just the life of the fetus itself. If those 10 people die so that fetus may live, a lot more lives will be affected negatively.

[Mizfit]

Tell me one woman who had an abortion that said it was mentally easy. I believe women do have the instinct, they just fight against it.

I can show you women who should have had one - the children that are products of an unwanted pregnancy that they kept for different reasons– speak to those people, then get back to me.

[RA]

Didn't you see the story about the wolf lady on yahoo news the other day? She was abandoned by her parents in Russia and, no joke, was found when she was 15 running around on all fours growling and barking like a dog. She now leads a somewhat normal life but, no embryo could do that.

Technically speaking, a baby CAN survive on its own, it will just starve, freeze, etc without assistance, but the fact is it CAN survive outside the womb, a fetus cannot.

As far as your last statement, instinct! Are you saying that your cognitive ability and intelligence is the same as a baby?? Of course not, because you ARE the sum of your experiences. I'm sure no baby has injected a gram of test into it's ass either!

Ok, embryo without help dies...baby without help dies. Your just arguing semantics.

[RA]

How can the rights of 10 people be equal to one fetus? If anything, the lives of the people that have been touched by the 10 people that will die without the fetus serve as more collateral than just the life of the fetus itself. If those 10 people die so that fetus may live, a lot more lives will be affected negatively.

I dont agree with sacrificing the innocent for any reason.

[RA]

I can show you women who should have had one - the children that are products of an unwanted pregnancy that they kept for different reasons– speak to those people, then get back to me.

I know several very well. I'm certain they would choose life over death.

[Phreak101]

Ok, embryo without help dies...baby without help dies. Your just arguing semantics.

Not true! Embryos are missing many key life functions that develop later in the in-utero process. You are missing my point. An embryo cannot survive in ANY natural situation for ANY period of time, a baby can at least live a few days, hence it is ALIVE.

[Phreak101]

I dont agree with sacrificing the innocent for any reason.

Apparently not. I don't believe it in either, but that does not prevent it from being necessary sometimes.

[RA]

I can show you women who should have had one - the children that are products of an unwanted pregnancy that they kept for different reasons– speak to those people, then get back to me.

This one in particular was born of a 15 year olds romp in the park bushes. She had to drop out of school and the father didn't want to have anything to do with the child. The mother admits she wanted an abortion but the parents would not allow it.

It was tough for them but now as the child is an adult they are super close. The mother went back to school and college to be a nurse. She said her daughter was her inspiration.

[Tucc]

deleted...

[Tucc]

What you are doing is taking a stance on the fact that embryos are life, when in fact they are not! Embryos are a future human life, but an embryo cannot survive on it's own without assistance from it's mother or science.

It is a religious viewpoint that conception = life. Life, again, is CONSCIOUSNESS. It is EXPERIENCE. If abortion is already legal, explain to me why these embryos should be tossed in the trash rather than used to try to further humanity as a whole.

You make it sound as if evil scientists are kidnapping women and stealing their babies to take over the world.

I am a life because I have LIVED my life. I am a conscious entity aware that I make my own decisions and determine my own fate. My parents instilled in me morals and values and I have become self aware. Long story short, I understand I exist. A fetus does not. Miscarriages happen too, is that the killing of an innocent life?

Well put bro...

[Mizfit]

This one in particular was born of a 15 year olds romp in the park bushes. She had to drop out of school and the father didn't want to have anything to do with the child. The mother admits she wanted an abortion but the parents would not allow it.

It was tough for them but now as the child is an adult they are super close. The mother went back to school and college to be a nurse. She said her daughter was her inspiration.

Hows this for inspiring - child is born, even though it is not wanted it is kept.

The mother resents the child for its entire growing up years, does very little nuturing and blames the child for every single chance that she may have missed - including not going to school, possible relationship break up, not being able to go out, and just about anything under the sun.

The child is neglected, mistreated - and grows up with so much hate that they act out on the rest of society through violence, ignorance and blatant disprect for everyone and everything in it.

[The OutLord]

Wow..

I won't get into the debate about this, but i will say this - you or anyone else has no right to tell me what my rights as a woman are.

I understand AND suport you.


To Decide over a nother human
just becouas the others have a nother view of life..!
No body have force The "Deciding people" To do a Abort.
But if other ordinary people whants to... let them do that then
Every thing els is in My eye`s ------------>Megalomani<---------------

Megalomani = Storhetsvansinne = megalomani-a = megalomanía =
мания величия = μεγαλομανία = جنون العَظَمة = büyüklük hastalığı = .

want to get in controll of others in obedience
and the ambition is to save the world in to the rigth way and every thing els is rong!!.

Ther Is ALOT of rank in this Megalomani = Storhetsvansinne = megalomani-a = megalomanía = мания величия = μεγαλομανία = جنون العَظَمة = büyüklük hastalığı .

Adolf Hitler and Saddam Hussain and Stalin and Polpot , KKK and I am Sure Usama Bin Ladin got this behaviour to but this people I mention before as Hitler is the Rank that is in the EXTREM circumstance.

[stee]

it dont really matter what the western world thinks.
China will still carrry on their research and one day will be the front runners.

The thing with the USA as it always has been was in competition with the former soviet union.
Their economy was rotting from the inside out hence the main reason tehy never really triumphed with many "races".
The difference in this "race" is that the Chiniese economy is booming, America may stem things for a while with the developments and so may the EU but give it time n we will be able to go on holiday to gwangzhou to have a new arm or leg etc.

[mcpeepants]

In reply to your post...I never once mentioned "soul", as a condition of life, you did. You try to bring religion into this, I don't. There is right and wrong in the universe, regardless of which religion, if any, you subscribe to.

There is no right or wrong (morality wise) in the universe. The only goal of any creature is to survive. Everything else is secondary.

[stee]

I cant see anyones argument here.
If i smash my car or bike for example, assuming i have insurance what is the harm in the car or bike going to the breakers yard after i get payed out. Some one could make do with the parts as its no good to me anymore.

If i had an abortion what is the harm in the fetus going to the fetus farm?
me having any dispostion about the fetus being cultivated would just be immature, like the stuff goes on in the play ground.
"you cant have this toy because it is mine, but i dont want it so i am going to throw it in the bin"

[Phreak101]

There is no right or wrong (morality wise) in the universe. The only goal of any creature is to survive. Everything else is secondary.

This usually would be correct, and in most cases I would agree with you, but morals are what seperate us from animals. Since we can understand the consequences of our actions before they happen, morality is how we as civilized people can still carry on the survival of our species without infringing on natural law or the natural rights of other people.

In this case, the moral issue stems (no pun intended) from the question of is the fetus alive or not? If it is, the moral issue is killing the unborn child, if it is not, there is no moral issue. This is where the argument starts to go in circles, based on opinion more than science.

Sure our goal is to survive, but it is morals that keeps us from destroying each other in the fight for survival.

[mcpeepants]

This usually would be correct, and in most cases I would agree with you, but morals are what seperate us from animals. Since we can understand the consequences of our actions before they happen, morality is how we as civilized people can still carry on the survival of our species without infringing on or the natural rights of other people.

In this case, the moral issue stems (no pun intended) from the question of is the fetus alive or not? If it is, the moral issue is killing the unborn child, if it is not, there is no moral issue. This is where the argument starts to go in circles, based on opinion more than science.

Sure our goal is to survive, but it is morals that keeps us from destroying each other in the fight for survival.

I agree with most of what your saying, just knit picking some of the edges. Morality confuses me. The way it's used sometimes, it's doesn't seem like that what seperates us from animals. In nature, symbiosis (the beneficial kind) occurs all the time and it doesn't appear to involve morals. You watch my back and i'll watch yours. You don't need morals to have an interest in other people surviving. But then I again, I don't see how you could have a large group of people cooperating without some kind of moral code (ants and termites do it though).

[Teabagger]

OK. There seem to be some on here that can't agree life begins at conception, and there are others that it doesn't matter to. For those of you who do not believe life begins at conception I have a question...when does life begin?? At what developmental stage does the fetus magically become "alive", and thus worthy of protecting against murder? I want you to respond with the exact moment in time...more specfic than the hour, minute, or second. When is the switch flipped and that nebulous blob of cells suddenly become human?

And for those on here that condition "life" on having experience I assume that abortion is within a womans right up until the exact second that baby's head exits the vagina and takes it first breath...am I correct in assuming this is your stance, which is in line with your "life is experience" test?

Someone mentioned a miscarriage and tried to somehow tie it to abortion...a miscarriage is nature's way of terminating a "blob of cells" that had no chance of even surviving the gestation period. It required no act by the woman or a third party.

[Tock]

What your saying is laughable. Were going to be behind everyone in medical science because we lag in harvesting embryonic stem cells? Cmon tock this is horse poo.

No, we won't be behind everyone else in the sciences because of this one thing.
We will, however, end up behind everyone else in this major science because of the dogmatic Christian fundamentalists. And if they have their way, we'll lag behind other nations in other sciences because Christian fundamentalism is anti-science in other fields as well.

-Tock

[Tock]

..when does life begin.

Depends on how you want to define "life."

Strictly speaking, I don't think there is any such thing as "life," a sort of mystic essense of a biological entity that differentiates it from an inanimate object like a rock.
IMHO, you and I and everything in the universe are made of atoms and molecules that act and react to each other. And that's all there is.

[Logan13]

I agree with most of what your saying, just knit picking some of the edges. Morality confuses me. The way it's used sometimes, it's doesn't seem like that what seperates us from animals. In nature, symbiosis (the beneficial kind) occurs all the time and it doesn't appear to involve morals. You watch my back and i'll watch yours. You don't need morals to have an interest in other people surviving. But then I again, I don't see how you could have a large group of people cooperating without some kind of moral code (ants and termites do it though).

How do you relate morality and a symbiotic relationship? Please look up the word moral.

[The OutLord]

OK. There seem to be some on here that can't agree life begins at conception, and there are others that it doesn't matter to. For those of you who do not believe life begins at conception I have a question...when does life begin??.

( 1 )When Life have develop the first step to controll sytem for the own being.

( 2 )Life have begin when It is aware of the surroundings

[Kärnfysikern]

OK. There seem to be some on here that can't agree life begins at conception, and there are others that it doesn't matter to. For those of you who do not believe life begins at conception I have a question...when does life begin??

When the featus becomes aware. When it has started to develop sensory organs, when it has started to develop a brain. Thats when its capabel to feel and think and becomes aware.

At what developmental stage does the fetus magically become "alive", and thus worthy of protecting against murder? I want you to respond with the exact moment in time...more specfic than the hour, minute, or second. When is the switch flipped and that nebulous blob of cells suddenly become human?

Well you know aswell as I do that its impossible for any layman here to do that when not even the experts can come to a agreement.
But I do know that a bunch of cells after 3-4 days isnt aware, has no brain, has no sensory organs, experience nothing. That is the point of time that is relevalt to this thread because that is when its extracted for steem cell research. Its not even refered to as a featus in that stage. Only a blastocyte.

And for those on here that condition "life" on having experience I assume that abortion is within a womans right up until the exact second that baby's head exits the vagina and takes it first breath...am I correct in assuming this is your stance, which is in line with your "life is experience" test?

I dont speak for everyone else. But its not a correct assumption in my eyes. Later abortions is not ok.

[mcpeepants]

How do you relate morality and a symbiotic relationship? Please look up the word moral.

I was just trying to say that an animal can want to the ensure the survival of another with the need for morality. Beneficial symbiotic behavior is an example of such a case.

[RA]

Hows this for inspiring - child is born, even though it is not wanted it is kept.

The mother resents the child for its entire growing up years, does very little nuturing and blames the child for every single chance that she may have missed - including not going to school, possible relationship break up, not being able to go out, and just about anything under the sun.

The child is neglected, mistreated - and grows up with so much hate that they act out on the rest of society through violence, ignorance and blatant disprect for everyone and everything in it.

So that child should have been killed?

I'm not sure what kind of fictional story you could tell me that would be worse than death.

[RA]

I was just trying to say that an animal can want to the ensure the survival of another with the need for morality. Beneficial symbiotic behavior is an example of such a case.

Your implying a choice.

[Mizfit]

So that child should have been killed?

I'm not sure what kind of fictional story you could tell me that would be worse than death.

I don't see where your coming from and you don't see where i'm coming from. It's pretty simple , and if that child hadn't ever known life then they wouldn't know the difference.

and hate to tell you this, this is not fiction - This world we live in is not a fairytale for everyone.

[RA]

I don't see where your coming from and you don't see where i'm coming from. It's pretty simple , and if that child hadn't ever known life then they wouldn't know the difference.

and hate to tell you this, this is not fiction - This world we live in is not a fairytale for everyone.

I do see where your coming from but by your rationale we could say any baby that has a parent making less then 20k should also be aborted because their quality of life is less then if their parents made 100k.

[RA]

No, we won't be behind everyone else in the sciences because of this one thing.
We will, however, end up behind everyone else in this major science because of the dogmatic Christian fundamentalists. And if they have their way, we'll lag behind other nations in other sciences because Christian fundamentalism is anti-science in other fields as well.

-Tock

People like you have done a pretty good PR job demonizing religion. They have deeply held beliefs so they are not supposed to fight for them?

[Kärnfysikern]

since we are playing mindgames already.

roid what if you had a sic kid, fataly sic, and the doc tells you that a embryonic stem cell treatment could save her. Would you say no to that treatment because it means a embryo has to die?

[Mizfit]

I do see where your coming from but by your rationale we could say any baby that has a parent making less then 20k should also be aborted because their quality of life is less then if their parents made 100k.

living in poverty and living in a home where yuo aren't wanted are two totalyl different animals.

The bonds one develops as children are the stepping stones to relationships for the rest of our lives - how we relate to one another, how we intereact and so on.... If these are not firmly established, then it is very difficult to get one's footings. - Google it..

[Phreak101]

I agree with most of what your saying, just knit picking some of the edges. Morality confuses me. The way it's used sometimes, it's doesn't seem like that what seperates us from animals. In nature, symbiosis (the beneficial kind) occurs all the time and it doesn't appear to involve morals. You watch my back and i'll watch yours. You don't need morals to have an interest in other people surviving. But then I again, I don't see how you could have a large group of people cooperating without some kind of moral code (ants and termites do it though).

That's called ethics, which is the enforcement of basic human morals