Debating two approaches for my first cycle - Would LOVE input..

[John Andrew]

What a very sad post, Nussnussbaby you most certainly sound like a Nuss.

Good and honest people try to help you and you just keep on and on about your stupid idea!

26 going on 15!

Sorry John

[ickythump]

John you're a day late and a buck short to the piss party bud, keep the negativity to the first three pages, or comment on his other posts. I liked IF for cutting, nuss obviously saw results, the first bunch of threads got hideously derailed, he must have seen something in this board to continue posting sms wanting advice there's plenty of boards, so let's move on and see what he can get into the results section

[nussnussbaby]

Alright. Now that I know how I'm going to do this (I'm going to drop to about 160, probably about 6-7%bf, then I'm going to attempt to gain about 10lbs of almost pure muscle on my first cycle).. It's time to figure out what, exactly, I'm going to do.

Without putting too much thought into it to this point, I'd been - roughly - planning on just going with the site's recommended beginner cycle (below). Given that I am very disciplined and experienced with my diet. Given that I'll be entering my cycle with such a low body fat percentage. And given that my goal is to come out of this with an even lower body fat percentage. Are there any alterations I should consider making? Something that might lead to less water retention, perhaps. One poster has made some recommendations thus far, in this thread and in private messages. But I'd like to hear what everyone else thinks too.

- Week 1 to 12: Testosterone enanthate @ 250 mg every 3.5 days (500mg/week total)
- Week 1 to 12: hCG @ 250 iu every 3.5 days (500 iu/week total)
- Week 1 to 14: Arimidex @ 0.25mg every other day (From day 2 up until PCT starts)
- Week 14 to 18: Clomid @ 75/50/50/50
- Week 14 to 18: Nolvadex @ 40/20/20/20
*600 mg of N-Acetyl Cysteine (NAC) daily.

[derekkpapa1]

Alright. Now that I know how I'm going to do this (I'm going to drop to about 160, probably about 6-7%bf, then I'm going to attempt to gain about 10lbs of almost pure muscle on my first cycle).. It's time to figure out what, exactly, I'm going to do.

Without putting too much thought into it to this point, I'd been - roughly - planning on just going with the site's recommended beginner cycle (below). Given that I am very disciplined and experienced with my diet. Given that I'll be entering my cycle with such a low body fat percentage. And given that my goal is to come out of this with an even lower body fat percentage. Are there any alterations I should consider making? Something that might lead to less water retention, perhaps. One poster has made some recommendations thus far, in this thread and in private messages. But I'd like to here what everyone else thinks too.

- Week 1 to 12: Testosterone enanthate @ 250 mg every 3.5 days (500mg/week total)
- Week 1 to 12: hCG @ 250 iu every 3.5 days (500 iu/week total)
- Week 1 to 14: Arimidex @ 0.25mg every other day (From day 2 up until PCT starts)
- Week 14 to 18: Clomid @ 75/50/50/50
- Week 14 to 18: Nolvadex @ 40/20/20/20
*600 mg of N-Acetyl Cysteine (NAC) daily.

Wow some one did alittle research look at you go

[ickythump]

Yea, make sure you're getting blood work! You probably know that but, just saying!

[nussnussbaby]

Yea, make sure you're getting blood work! You probably know that but, just saying!

The bloodwork stuff actually seemed really complicated. I was going to get into that after picking compounds.

Any thoughts on adjustments to the plan ppl?

[ickythump]

I think I had suggested test propionate to you that's my only input, maybe if someone can chime in with personal experience about prop holding less water, it seems like common knowledge but I can't find scientific evidence (but even in places such as drugs dot com or any sites giving medical information they seem to say water retention is less with shorter esters)

[Black]

I think I had suggested test propionate to you that's my only input, maybe if someone can chime in with personal experience about prop holding less water, it seems like common knowledge but I can't find scientific evidence (but even in places such as drugs dot com or any sites giving medical information they seem to say water retention is less with shorter esters)

I seemed to retain more water with cyp than with prop. It was awhile ago I ran cyp, so I'm not sure what my diet was like.
You would also be injecting less prop at a time than cyp, so that could also be a factor.

[nussnussbaby]

I seemed to retain more water with cyp than with prop. It was awhile ago I ran cyp, so I'm not sure what my diet was like.
You would also be injecting less prop at a time than cyp, so that could also be a factor.

you guys will have to forgive me for being so green when it comes to talking about compounds.. but the beginner's cycle recommends test enanthate.

you two seem to be recommending test propionate instead, right? (I don't really understand why DanteDiamond is comparing it to something called "cyp")

[BG]

I like to see you get 450 at 185 no gear. Not saying you can't, but I would be interested seeing it. You have a future in ppl'ing.

[nussnussbaby]

I like to see you get 450 at 185 no gear. Not saying you can't, but I would be interested seeing it. You have a future in ppl'ing.

Short arms help. What's ppl'ing?

[BG]

Power lifting. I meant pl'ing

[nussnussbaby]

Power lifting. I meant pl'ing

Oh. Maybe in a weight-class-based competition I could be. Even before I started lifting seriously, I was always pretty strong. Strongest kid on my football teams in high school and college at about 185.

[ickythump]

Testosterone is the hormone, the next is the ester, which is the time release tail so to speak. don't quote me but I believe it's the number of carbon atoms attached to the test and it releases the hormone into your system. I think when I talked to you about it before I gave you a description of why steroids can lead to water retention, and there's some science I included, but I can not find anything concrete on WHY shorter releasing esters cause less retention.

Examples of esters 0 day release is test suspension

1-3 for proportionate and acetate
9 I think for isocapronate
Cypionate and enanthate are like 18 (this is really goggle-able)

Point is, that's how long they're active. The beginner cycle recommends enth because of less injecting, which may be better for people. I suggested prop to you so you could run a shorter cycle, and you want to remain as lean as you can so, less water you can monitor your muscles better imho

[nussnussbaby]

Testosterone is the hormone, the next is the ester, which is the time release tail so to speak. don't quote me but I believe it's the number of carbon atoms attached to the test and it releases the hormone into your system. I think when I talked to you about it before I gave you a description of why steroids can lead to water retention, and there's some science I included, but I can not find anything concrete on WHY shorter releasing esters cause less retention.

Examples of esters 0 day release is test suspension

1-3 for proportionate and acetate
9 I think for isocapronate
Cypionate and enanthate are like 18 (this is really goggle-able)

Point is, that's how long they're active. The beginner cycle recommends enth because of less injecting, which may be better for people. I suggested prop to you so you could run a shorter cycle, and you want to remain as lean as you can so, less water you can monitor your muscles better imho

Okay. Interesting. The more injections wouldn't be a problem (I have a friend who's used plenty ~ but who doesn't seem to know how to use properly ~ who's going to show me how to do the injections).

Prop would be a shorter cycle, huh? How long are we talking?

[ickythump]

I meant propionate

[kelkel]

It's your first cycle, stick with a long ester and keep it simple. You don't need EOD pinning for a first go round.

[nussnussbaby]

It's your first cycle, stick with a long ester and keep it simple. You don't need EOD pinning for a first go round.

What's EOD pinning? (take it easy on the acronyms guys, I've never heard a lot of them)

[Capebuffalo]

What's EOD pinning? (take it easy on the acronyms guys, I've never heard a lot of them)

Every other day

[nussnussbaby]

It's your first cycle, stick with a long ester and keep it simple. You don't need EOD pinning for a first go round.

What's the main benefit of keeping it simple vs. going w/ test prop? Is it simply the amount of injections?

..minimizing water retention is a high priority for me.

[king6 II]

test prop cycles are usually about 8 weeks, I ran 9 last time. I like prop because of the faster results and less water retention for me. I do not mind pinning, which is why I pinned every day, I favor more sable blood levels however, EOD pinning is also fine. I am just more paranoid than others.

[nussnussbaby]

test prop cycles are usually about 8 weeks, I ran 9 last time. I like prop because of the faster results and less water retention for me. I do not mind pinning, which is why I pinned every day, I favor more sable blood levels however, EOD pinning is also fine. I am just more paranoid than others.

Every day? Did you run out of places to pin?

And it even works faster, huh? 8 or 9 wks, same results as 12? That's cool

[king6 II]

Every day? Did you run out of places to pin?

And it even works faster, huh? 8 or 9 wks, same results as 12? That's cool

Results with every day pinning vs. EOD are the same, the only reason I did it is because I believe more stable blood levels equal less sides, although I could be completely off on that. I rotated injection sites between left quad right quad, left glute, right glute, left delt, right delt. I threw pecs in there as an experiment however, I found pec injections particularly painful.

[Black]

What's the main benefit of keeping it simple vs. going w/ test prop? Is it simply the amount of injections?

..minimizing water retention is a high priority for me.

Pretty much. Having never done them, you may get started and find out you'd rather stick yourself 1-2 times a week instead of 3-4 times.

I started out with Cypionate and then after a few years, switched over to Propionate. One more thing with prop other than the injections, is that the prop ester can cause injection site pain/swelling after injection. Some people it doesn't bother, but most it does. You will want an Aromatase Inhibitor with whatever ester you choose.

I hold less water with prop, than cyp ( never used Enanthate). But, diet and AI will be the main factors of controlling water.

[nussnussbaby]

Pretty much. Having never done them, you may get started and find out you'd rather stick yourself 1-2 times a week instead of 3-4 times.

I started out with Cypionate and then after a few years, switched over to Propionate. One more thing with prop other than the injections, is that the prop ester can cause injection site pain/swelling after injection. Some people it doesn't bother, but most it does. You will want an Aromatase Inhibitor with whatever ester you choose.

I hold less water with prop, than cyp ( never used Enanthate). But, diet and AI will be the main factors of controlling water.

What's AI?

[Black]

What's AI?

Aromatase Inhibitor

[Capebuffalo]

What's AI?

http://forums.steroid.com/anabolic-s...le-swifto.html

[nussnussbaby]

http://forums.steroid.com/anabolic-s...le-swifto.html

Right, okay, I've read this.

In all seriousness and honesty, how bad is the PIP? It sounds like it's enough to make some ppl want to skip injections? How concerned should I be about that?

[ickythump]

Right, okay, I've read this.

In all seriousness and honesty, how bad is the PIP? It sounds like it's enough to make some ppl want to skip injections? How concerned should I be about that?

I had bad pip in quads, so I didn't pin them, the other pip I got was from improper technique. I wasn't going deep enough, delts because I didn't realize I had a full inch of muscle to go all the way in, glutes I got a longer needle because I had more fat on them than I thought. But honestly, it's not bad, you just man up when it hurts lol

[king6 II]

Right, okay, I've read this.

In all seriousness and honesty, how bad is the PIP? It sounds like it's enough to make some ppl want to skip injections? How concerned should I be about that?

Honestly it depends on the gear. I ran prop from a very reputable UGL at the time and there was no PIP at all.

[Capebuffalo]

Right, okay, I've read this.

In all seriousness and honesty, how bad is the PIP? It sounds like it's enough to make some ppl want to skip injections? How concerned should I be about that?

Like my momma told me when I was a boy You can't be a pvssy your whole life. And she was right. It's part of it. You just deal with it.

[ickythump]

I've seen some charts that show how the compound is active in the blood (obv I didn't do the sTudy but it seemed legit) and it showed every other day injecting to yield stable blood levels. From what I understand, stable blood levels= less sides. I injected eod, test blend, and I did glutes and delts, quads once but never again...pip was manageable after a while (oops, post injection pain<--) in delts and glutes after I got steady handed and made sure I was injecting deep enough

[Black]

Results with every day pinning vs. EOD are the same, the only reason I did it is because I believe more stable blood levels equal less sides, although I could be completely off on that. I rotated injection sites between left quad right quad, left glute, right glute, left delt, right delt. I threw pecs in there as an experiment however, I found pec injections particularly painful.

I've seen some charts that show how the compound is active in the blood (obv I didn't do the sTudy but it seemed legit) and it showed every other day injecting to yield stable blood levels. From what I understand, stable blood levels= less sides. I injected eod, test blend, and I did glutes and delts, quads once but never again...pip was manageable after a while (oops, post injection pain<--) in delts and glutes after I got steady handed and made sure I was injecting deep enough

Just to touch on both a little bit, I will sometimes do ED injecting if the PIP is getting to me. By doing ED opposed to EOD, you are injecting less (volume wise) so the PIP will generally be less.

[ickythump]

Just to touch on both a little bit, I will sometimes do ED injecting if the PIP is getting to me. By doing ED opposed to EOD, you are injecting less (volume wise) so the PIP will generally be less.

That makes a lot of sense, and will be good for when and if I run anything that I know has pip, love to try tren one day lol

[nussnussbaby]

Icky, Dante, King - great informative posts. I have an experienced friend here who can help me get started with the injections, so I think I'm leaning towards prop.

Kkell seems to be the one person against that idea, for the sake of keeping it simple.

Need to keep thinking about it, for sure..

[king6 II]

Icky, Dante, King - great informative posts. I have an experienced friend here who can help me get started with the injections, so I think I'm leaning towards prop.

Kkell seems to be the one person against that idea, for the sake of keeping it simple.

Need to keep thinking about it, for sure..

For those who are virgins to injections, I can agree with an enanthate ester. The main reason it is possible for the user to get burned out by injections and then start to slack on injections. If you have never injected I can agree with test E. I started with Test E and moved to prop after becoming immune to injections. However, to each is his own. You need to experiment and find out what works best for you, I personally am a fan of prop however, I have 2 cycles under my belt.

[ickythump]

I used sust and did it eod, never missed a day, even when pip was bad...the last two weeks I did glutes only because I was used to it and they didn't mind at all, my glutes that is

[king6 II]

Underground Lab.

[nussnussbaby]

So, alright. I'm leaning towards test-prop. The EOD injections might suck, but I'm willing to suffer through whatever pains there are to get optimal results.

Week 1-8: Testosterone Propionate: 100 to 150mg EOD.
Week 1-8: hCG: 250iu 2x/wk
Week 1-8 +3 days: Arimidex: 0.25mg EOD.
Week 8 +3 days - Week 12 +3 days: Clomid 75/50/50/50mg
Week 8 +3 days - Week 12 +3 days: Nolvadex 40/20/20/20mg

*600 mg of N-Acetyl Cysteine (NAC) daily.

I'll drop to about 162 before starting. Hope to gain about 8lbs of almost all muscle on the cycle.



...I guess one of the first questions I'd have is: 100 or 150mg of test prop EOD? I'm guessing it'd be better to lean closer to the 150mg side?

...Also, do I just take the NAC during the cycle? Or throughout PCT as well?

[ickythump]

So, alright. I'm leaning towards test-prop. The EOD injections might suck, but I'm willing to suffer through whatever pains there are to get optimal results.

Week 1-8: Testosterone Propionate: 100 to 150mg EOD.
Week 1-8: hCG: 250iu 2x/wk
Week 1-8 +3 days: Arimidex: 0.25mg EOD.
Week 8 +3 days - Week 12 +3 days: Clomid 75/50/50/50mg
Week 8 +3 days - Week 12 +3 days: Nolvadex 40/20/20/20mg

*600 mg of N-Acetyl Cysteine (NAC) daily.

I'll drop to about 162 before starting. Hope to gain about 8lbs of almost all muscle on the cycle.



...I guess one of the first questions I'd have is: 100 or 150mg of test prop EOD? I'm guessing it'd be better to lean closer to the 150mg side?

...Also, do I just take the NAC during the cycle? Or throughout PCT as well?

NAC is a good all around supplement, you can probably learn about it in ten minutes it's pretty tested....gather a few opinions on dosage, but I like that cycle, injecting is only as bad as you let it be, you will hurt a few seconds, pip can be like a really really DOMS afflicted muscle (delayed onset muscle soreness, like after a SWEET workout) but you will survive...like my buddies Armenian dad always says "kid- don't be a pvssy"