Originally Posted by PTbyJason
1) No there aren't. If you know of any, do you have any medical documentation of the healing?
Check out these comments from a guy who investigated 101 claims of healings by faith healers:
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http://www.abc.net.au/science/correx...ves/randi2.htm
(Paul Willis) In our second Science Week interview with James Randi, we hear about some of his experiences with faith healers, particularly fundamentalist Christian faith healers, who've been described as the world championship wrestlers of religion.
(Randi) Well first of all they don't do any faith healing, I think I can say that from a point of view of authority. I investigated for my book 'The Faith Healers' 104 cases of people who said they had been healed by faith healers or about whom it was said they were healed. And I found out those 104 people belonged to three classes: first class is people who never had the disease that they thought they did. A quick example of that is a woman who said she'd been healed of throat cancer where the faith healer admitted he touched her on the forehead. So I questioned her further, and eventually got to talk to her doctor. And her doctor sort of shook his head and he said, 'I have examined her for throat cancer at least 15 times in the past few years. Her mother died of it some years ago and every time she gets a sore throat of any kind, or a frog in her voice or whatever, she swears she has throat cancer. She comes to me and I examine her, and say, "No, no trace of any abnormality there" but she still wants to believe she has throat cancer.'
The second class of people that I examined in those 104 people, were people who still had the diseases of which they said they'd been healed. One gentleman, he said he'd been healed of diabetes. W.P. Grant, who had apparently treated this man by again hitting him on the forehead with his palm. There has never been a recorded case of diabetes being healed but it can be treated effectively either with insulin or other drugs that simulate the effect of insulin. He said, 'I'm aware of that, but I want to testify to my healing.' I said, 'OK, can I talk to your doctor?' and he said, 'Yes'. There was a pause and he said, 'By the way, my doctor won't agree that I've been healed.' I said, 'Wait now, either you are healed or you're not healed.' He said, 'Yes, but my doctor's not a Christian you see.' And he said, 'Oh I see, you're one of those sceptical people?' I said, 'Yes indeed I am, Sir, I admit that.' And he said, 'Well, I don't think I want any more of this conversation.' I said, 'One question more: are you still taking insulin?' He said, 'I thought you'd ask that.' He said, 'Yes, the Devil makes me take the insulin.'
The third class of people was even sadder. They were people who were already dead by the time I got around to interview them. And one case was in St Louis, Missouri, we went up to the front door and we were just knocking on the front door and they opened the front door and the gentleman was being wheeled out in the body bag on a gurney. He had died of the disease he said he'd been healed of, just the night before.
I can't say that faith healing has never worked or that it doesn't ever work. All I can say is my experience is 100% failure.
(Paul Willis) You also did some investigations of the faith healers themselves, and found that they were using all sorts of tricks to make people think that they could actually perform a healing.
(Randi) We found that a chap named Peter Popov here; what they would do is they would interview the crowd as they came into the place, and they'd find someone with an ailment of a certain kind, get them to describe it, and then they would transmit this to the faith healer when he was out on the floor, and we'd hear the wife's voice saying, 'Go down aisle 2 Peter, the fellow in the red shirt in the third row right on the aisle there, his name is Bill.' And so Popov would go down and say, 'Bill, why am I saying Bill? Is your name Bill?' And Bill would light up. 'And you're going to tell Dr Gladstone - what is your doctor's name?' 'Dr Gladstone'. 'Did you tell that to me, or to anyone?' 'No, I didn't.' But what they didn't say or didn't ask him was he'd filled it out on a form and handed it in previously because he was asked to do so. So this was just a case of regurgitating the information, but it was being given to them by his wife who was backstage at a transmitter, and he had a little hearing aid device that enabled him to hear this.
(Paul Willis) You've managed to show a number of them to be fakes, but since I've been here I've turned on the telly and there's still plenty of them out there. Do you feel you're fighting a losing battle?
(Randi) It's a losing battle. One fellow once said to me "Mr Randi, I assume you will realise that you're shovelling water uphill". It takes a certain amount of bravery to face up to the fact that you're not going to be rescued by an angel, or that you have to get rid of the Devil or some such thing who is cursing you. No, you've got a bacterial infection, take some penicillin.
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2) Prophesize? Either educated guesses, or guesses about as accurate as Jeanne Dixon.
3) Pure gibberish. Besides, glossolalia, as "tongues" is called, is common in lots of Caribbean and African primitive religions. That the practice should find its way into primitive christian practices, along with snake handling, isn't at all surprising.
4) More BS. I've been to churches like this, got to know the folks involved. Ususally the "interpreters" do the interpreting because to do so demonstrates their "extra close relationship with God," which puts them in a somewhat special place of respect in the congregation. Same applies for the Babbler.
5) With Hollywood special effects, all things are possible. In fairy tales, all things are possible. Same applies to any piece of literature. If there were more talking serpents around, I'd say Gen 2 could have happened. But since they are such a rare commodity, I'd say that it was fiction. You can change my mind, though, if you can show me a talking serpent. Just one. Are you up to that challenge?
6) Research away. Seems obvious to me, though.
7) Such as?
8) But men have written legends and fairy tales and sagas and myths that are not true. Is it more likely that the Bible's talking serpent is a myth, or is it more likely that out of all the millions of serpents that have ever lived, one of them actually could speak, and of all the languages to learn, mastered English? (or Hebrew, or Aramaic, or whatever Eve was speaking)?
Common sense will tell you one thing. Blind Faith will tell you something else.
9) I glad you trust me to use my common sense.
10) Well, you shoulda got a hold of me. I would have thrown you a rope to hold on to so your intellect wouldn't have sunk in the mirey quicksand of irrational dogma and blind faith.
11) Sometimes a slick preacher can get ya to swallow something that doesn't make much sense by persuading you that "It's in the Bible," or "Exercise Faith now, and beleif will come later." That's a simple form of brainwashing, which I suppose you've fallen prey to. Nothing unusual, I've seen it happen lots of times. But it's still a tragedy when a person allows their intellect to fall prey to the irrational claims of faith.
Ya, hucksters like Peter Popov wow audiences with claims of "special knowledge" only to be discovered to be using radio transmitters. ABC News did an expose on a Dallas area faith healer, WT Grant, who lived in opulent luxury while his faithful followers in South Dallas were mostly poor old pensioners. Seems one of his favorite tricks was to put "plants" in his audience; they'd limp up to the stage, they'd be "healed," and run back and forth on stage, and that was supposed to be a Healing.
Bah.
Anyway, if you want to talk about a specific instance of someone being healed, include how the situation was confirmed by their doctor, along with X-rays and etc. Any fool can say they were "healed," anyone can have open heart surgery and thank God for healing them, but IMHO, thanks rightfully go to the medical profession.
Yah, show me substantiation, else don't make the claims.
--Tock
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Come on. If that was the case, he wouldn't have suffered for so long.
