HCG - How important is it?

[Kibble]

Cryste, you made a thread about this. You need to read more about it bro- like I said. Get your sterile vials and bac water now. Get one more 5,000iu kit. Once you do that then we can continue. How many 5,000iu ampules do you have?

[michael tyson]

Cryste, you made a thread about this. You need to read more about it bro- like I said. Get your sterile vials and bac water now. Get one more 5,000iu kit. Once you do that then we can continue. How many 5,000iu ampules do you have?

ya, i posted here first then decided not to clutter Swifto's thread and made my own .

[Kibble]

Oh ok sorry about that bro

[PO OFFICER]

Swifto I have a question for you...
Do you believe that hcg is needed on a 9-week cycle of 40mg of anavar ed ??

I was thinking about just running clomid so I can get my testes back working. Your opinion?

[TBones]

It's clear after 5 pages and umpteen million recomandations that it's better to run durring then shock your nuts back in gear after cycle....The few times somone asked about dosage at the end of cycle, it's gets redirected to "better to use during". LOL

Anyway, i will consider that for next time after reading this thread. Good information. However, It's too late for this cycle. I'm 3 weeks away from the end. I've seen it two ways on this thread, 500iu ED and 500 to 1000iu EOD. So whats the consesus?


TBone

[Swifto]

It's clear after 5 pages and umpteen million recomandations that it's better to run durring then shock your nuts back in gear after cycle....The few times somone asked about dosage at the end of cycle, it's gets redirected to "better to use during". LOL

Anyway, i will consider that for next time after reading this thread. Good information. However, It's too late for this cycle. I'm 3 weeks away from the end. I've seen it two ways on this thread, 500iu ED and 500 to 1000iu EOD. So whats the consesus?


TBone

I'd rather 500ius/ED for the final 10-14 days away from PCT with an AI. Then PCT with SERM(s).

[TBones]

I'd rather 500ius/ED for the final 10-14 days away from PCT with an AI. Then PCT with SERM(s).

Great, thanks Swifto! I'll go 10 days since the math works perfect with the 5000iu pregnl i have. I have Adex and clomid. I was going to run it with the clomid but it sounds like it will be better to use the Adex with HCG and then Clomid after?

Thanks,
TBone

[Swifto]

Great, thanks Swifto! I'll go 10 days since the math works perfect with the 5000iu pregnl i have. I have Adex and clomid. I was going to run it with the clomid but it sounds like it will be better to use the Adex with HCG and then Clomid after?

Thanks,
TBone

Correct.

[TBones]

Correct.

Thanks again!

[BJJ]

I am about to start a test cycle, still unsure about what type of test.
I wanted to ask you what could be the best HCG protocol in both cases:

1.
Week 1-12 Test Enanthate 500 mg ew (2x250)
Week 1-12 Mesterolone 50 mg ed
Week 7-12 Oxandrolone 60 mg ed
Week 3-12 HCG 125 iu e3d

2.
Week 1-10 Test Propionate 70 mg ed
Week 1-10 Mesterolone 50 mg ed
Week 5-10 Oxandrolone 60 mg ed
Week 1-10 HCG 125 iu e3d

[Swifto]

I am about to start a test cycle, still unsure about what type of test.
I wanted to ask you what could be the best HCG protocol in both cases:

1.
Week 1-12 Test Enanthate 500 mg ew (2x250)
Week 1-12 Mesterolone 50 mg ed
Week 7-12 Oxandrolone 60 mg ed
Week 3-12 HCG 125 iu e3d

2.
Week 1-10 Test Propionate 70 mg ed
Week 1-10 Mesterolone 50 mg ed
Week 5-10 Oxandrolone 60 mg ed
Week 1-10 HCG 125 iu e3d

I say start from week 1. It can take 1-3 weeks for endogenous T to shut off from the use of Test Enan. But when you add more androgens (Masteron) there is more androgenic activity at the HP. So I'd assume a more rapid cessesation of endogenous androgens.

You may get away with 125ius. But I've been leaning towards 250ius 2-3 times a week recently.

[BJJ]

I say start from week 1. It can take 1-3 weeks for endogenous T to shut off from the use of Test Enan. But when you add more androgens (Masteron) there is more androgenic activity at the HP. So I'd assume a more rapid cessesation of endogenous androgens.

You may get away with 125ius. But I've been leaning towards 250ius 2-3 times a week recently.

Thanks for you reply.

Though, I am not going to add masteron but mesterolone (proviron) which has nothing to do with HPTA.
So, even in this case you would suggest to start at week 1?

[Swifto]

Thanks for you reply.

Though, I am not going to add masteron but mesterolone (proviron) which has nothing to do with HPTA.
So, even in this case you would suggest to start at week 1?

Yes.

But I cant see a problem with week 2-3. Your covering more bases week 1.

[BJJ]

Yes.

But I cant see a problem with week 2-3. Your covering more bases week 1.

Thank you, much appreciate it.

[BJJ]

I am about to start a test cycle, still unsure about what type of test.
I wanted to ask you what could be the best HCG protocol in both cases:

1.
Week 1-12 Test Enanthate 500 mg ew (2x250)
Week 1-12 Mesterolone 50 mg ed
Week 7-12 Oxandrolone 60 mg ed
Week 3-12 HCG 125 iu e3d

2.
Week 1-10 Test Propionate 70 mg ed
Week 1-10 Mesterolone 50 mg ed
Week 5-10 Oxandrolone 60 mg ed
Week 1-10 HCG 125 iu e3d

I say start from week 1. It can take 1-3 weeks for endogenous T to shut off from the use of Test Enan. But when you add more androgens (Masteron) there is more androgenic activity at the HP. So I'd assume a more rapid cessesation of endogenous androgens.

You may get away with 125ius. But I've been leaning towards 250ius 2-3 times a week recently.

Is the use of an AI a must while using HCG during cycle?
Can I just try first with nolva?

[Swifto]

Is the use of an AI a must while using HCG during cycle?
Can I just try first with nolva?

You can, yes. But elevated estrogen levels can cause more problems in males than estrogen kept in low/moderate doses. Its personal preference, but I like to keep estrogen controlled. That way I can control my small case of gyno, acne and water retention.

HCG just casuses more estrogen. Via direct action on the testes to secrete more estrogen and through other pathways (aromotase).

[Kdub]

I am about to start a test cycle, still unsure about what type of test.
I wanted to ask you what could be the best HCG protocol in both cases:

1.
Week 1-12 Test Enanthate 500 mg ew (2x250)
Week 1-12 Mesterolone 50 mg ed
Week 7-12 Oxandrolone 60 mg ed
Week 3-12 HCG 125 iu e3d

2.
Week 1-10 Test Propionate 70 mg ed
Week 1-10 Mesterolone 50 mg ed
Week 5-10 Oxandrolone 60 mg ed
Week 1-10 HCG 125 iu e3d

PM sent instead...

[RA]

Ill bump it by saying you have to be careful with hcg. If you run it at higher doses without nolva your going to have to go bra shopping.

[boz]

great read ty!

[jasperhup]

great thread. I've heard some people say 500iu is the correct minimum dosage, are there thresholds that have to be crossed before HCG is dosed ideally?

I'd say 250uis split up makes sense intuitively, i'll be running it week 1 through 6.5 on my next 8 weeker.

[Swifto]

great thread. I've heard some people say 500iu is the correct minimum dosage, are there thresholds that have to be crossed before HCG is dosed ideally?

I'd say 250uis split up makes sense intuitively, i'll be running it week 1 through 6.5 on my next 8 weeker.

Some get away with 125ius 2-3 times/wk. Other 250ius and 500ius. I wouldnt think anyone needs more than 500ius 2-3 times/wk IMHO.

[jasperhup]

Some get away with 125ius 2-3 times/wk. Other 250ius and 500ius. I wouldnt think anyone needs more than 500ius 2-3 times/wk IMHO.

fair points.

I know dub the new official HCG policy of JasperHup enterprises as the Swifto Protocol.

[Aizen Sosuke]

This should be sticky. It took me 5 min to search it out and most newbies won't even attempt to.

[Swifto]

This should be sticky. It took me 5 min to search it out and most newbies won't even attempt to.

Agreed.

I wish more would read it...

[HuntMan]

^^Great read! answered all my Questions..Should be a sticky

[run_n_fool]

Is HCG widely available from research companies in the same way PCT compounds are, or is it a tightly controled compound?

[Swifto]

Is HCG widely available from research companies in the same way PCT compounds are, or is it a tightly controled compound?

Its not as accessable as research chems.

[Lethalius]

What about for someone on Test indefinitely, for a period of years (not a cycle)? Is it safe to use HCG at 125 to 250 iu's, 2 to 3 times/week indefinitely? Lastly, if I am on 750mg/wk of test en for 1 year now, what dose of HCG should I start at before I ramp down to 125-250 ius?

Thanks in advance,

So how important is HCG?

When our HPTA's are "shutdown" we have to distinguish between short-term inhibtion and long-term dysfunction.

Short-term inhibition of testosterone production comes primarily from negative feedback at the pituitary and hypothalamus, which reduces LH output. This could be described as a reduction in the signal to produce testosterone. This LH suppression recovers quickly.

However, with time, it leads to testicular dysfunction. Without LH from the pituitary, the testes atrophy from disuse. This testicular dysfunction could be described as a reduction in the responsiveness to a signal to produce testosterone.

The hypothalamus and pituitary seem to recover fairly quickly following the use of androgens. GnRH, LH and FSH rise fairly quickly post cycle, but endogenous testosterone levels dont. As confirmed in this review by William Llewellyn. It shows that LH levels rise fairly quickly (on the 3rd week) after Testosterone Enanthate injections of 250mg weekly for 21 weeks. So it seems the hypothalamus and pituitary are not the problem in restarting endogenous testosterone production post cycle.

After recent correspondance with Dr.Crisler (Swale) he confirmed ganadotrophin levels were not to blame in restarting the HPTA. So what is?

If LH levels rise post cycle (the majority of the time) the reason why endogenous testosterone levels DONT rise, is the testes. Or testicular dysfunction. Testicular dysfunction is when the testes become atrophied from disuse or desensitised to ganadotrophins, such as LH. This could also be described as being the onset of primary hypogonadism.

Primary hypogonadism is when the testes no longer respond to LH. The testes have a lowered sperm concentration/production and endogenous testosterone level, although LH and FSH are above normal levels. This can be due to desease (Klinefelter's syndrome), over use of anabolic steroids, as described in this study or overuse of HCG. The simple answer to primary hypogonadism is HRT.

So if the testes (testicular dysfunction) are the main culprit in restoring testosterone production post cycle how can we maintain testicular function and endogenous testosterone production even when "shutdown" using andorgens? Simple - HCG.

HCG has the ability to maintain endogenous testosterone production and ITT (Intra-Testicular Testosterone) by stimulating the testes (directly) even when shutdown from androgens, such as Testosterone Enathate, shown in this study.

HCG is VERY important in cycles IMHO. It prevents the main reason the HPTA doesnt recover immediately post cycle - testicular dysfunction. It should be a staple of EVERY cycle causing shutdown IMHO.

I suggest HCG be used at 125-250ius 2-3 times weekly (as per Dr.Crisler's advice) with an AI throughout the cycle. This will maintain testicular size and function and prevent testicular dysfunction. It should also be noted that administering over "500ius will cause an increase in estrogen and progesterone, further hindering recovery" - Dr.Crisler.


For those wanting to convert their HCG doses into something more managable. Here's how:

HCG comes in 1500ius and 5000ius amps. Usually from Pregnyl. Chinese suppliers also stock their HCG in these two denominations too.

You need to get some sterile empty 10ML glass serum vials. You can get these from AR-R.

You also need to get some bac. water. If you were to mix 5000ius with 10ML bac. water, 1ML = 500ius. If you were to mix 1500ius with 10ML bac. water, 1ML = 150ius.

Once mixed, refridgerate. I tend to use my mixed HCG within 30-45 days.

Its really that simple.


This thread has been written on correspondance from Dr.Crisler (Swale), Concilliator and my own research gathered.

[Swifto]

What about for someone on Test indefinitely, for a period of years (not a cycle)? Is it safe to use HCG at 125 to 250 iu's, 2 to 3 times/week indefinitely? Lastly, if I am on 750mg/wk of test en for 1 year now, what dose of HCG should I start at before I ramp down to 125-250 ius?

Thanks in advance,

You'de be better posting this in the HRT and Anti-Ageing Forum. I'm not on HRT and have no personal experience with HCG/HRT.

From my understanding, it would be for cosmetic and fertility purposes. Otherwise I dont see the point. Your on HRT and not coming off, so HPTA function is of no, or little interest at all. Contact Big, he's on HRT and uses HCG.

This thread and article was written on advice given based on average cycles of 6-12 or so weeks, using exogenous androgens that cause full cessation of ganadotropins. It doesnt state use HCG "indefinitely" anywhere and that shouldnt be assumed. I'm going to add something along those lines to clear up any confusion.

Why do you ant to use HCG at all after 1 year? Are you coming off now?

If your thinking of coming off, larger initial doses of HCG may be required to restart testicular function.

[Lethalius]

I am thinking of coming down to HRT doses of 100-200mg/wk of test and see how I like it. I may try that for several months and HGH at 4 iu's ed and see
how my body responds. Coming off all the way makes me fear I will lose too much muscle.

I have been mostly "on" for in excess of 2 to 3 years now and my testes have definitely decreased in size. I am wondering if I came off completely, if my body's HPTA could recover all the way? I really think I am going to need to be on low dose HRT the rest of my life given my past aas use/abuse and if I use HGH with it, maybe it will be okay for me.

You'de be better posting this in the HRT and Anti-Ageing Forum. I'm not on HRT and have no personal experience with HCG/HRT.

From my understanding, it would be for cosmetic and fertility purposes. Otherwise I dont see the point. Your on HRT and not coming off, so HPTA function is of no, or little interest at all. Contact Big, he's on HRT and uses HCG.

This thread and article was written on advice given based on average cycles of 6-12 or so weeks, using exogenous androgens that cause full cessation of ganadotropins. It doesnt state use HCG "indefinitely" anywhere and that shouldnt be assumed. I'm going to add something along those lines to clear up any confusion.

Why do you ant to use HCG at all after 1 year? Are you coming off now?

If your thinking of coming off, larger initial doses of HCG may be required to restart testicular function.

[Swifto]

I am thinking of coming down to HRT doses of 100-200mg/wk of test and see how I like it. I may try that for several months and HGH at 4 iu's ed and see
how my body responds. Coming off all the way makes me fear I will lose too much muscle.

I have been mostly "on" for in excess of 2 to 3 years now and my testes have definitely decreased in size. I am wondering if I came off completely, if my body's HPTA could recover all the way? I really think I am going to need to be on low dose HRT the rest of my life given my past aas use/abuse and if I use HGH with it, maybe it will be okay for me.

If your thinking of coming off, you may need HCG. Because the testis have become atrophied from disuse, you'de be suffering from testicular dysfunction. That would warrant the use of HCG.

You need to first figure out if your suffering from primary or secondary hypogonadism.

[Little Herc]

I'm gonna run some with my summer cycle. How much would I need for a 12 week cycle run thoughout?

[Swifto]

I'm gonna run some with my summer cycle. How much would I need for a 12 week cycle run thoughout?

My protocol is based on exactly that.

250ius 2-3 times per week.

[bboynoir]

Hello If i am on a light deca cycle only of 250mg a week do you think HCG would help me to use throughout my cycle and PCT?Does it help with libido loss?And at what dosage??

[Juice Authority]

Hello If i am on a light deca cycle only of 250mg a week do you think HCG would help me to use throughout my cycle and PCT?Does it help with libido loss?And at what dosage??

Deca only? Why?

[bboynoir]

because i dont want any dramatic changes in my body because i breakdance and i just aimfor 3 kilograms.I just hope the side effects can be avoided with HCG.I mean deca d**k and stuff.But my dosage is so small so maybe it's ok any opinions will be a great help.

[Swifto]

because i dont want any dramatic changes in my body because i breakdance and i just aimfor 3 kilograms.I just hope the side effects can be avoided with HCG.I mean deca d**k and stuff.But my dosage is so small so maybe it's ok any opinions will be a great help.

You dont need AAS to "gain 3 kilo's". Post your diet in the Diet Forum.

You shouldnt get "Deca dick" when using a testosterone preperation alongside it.

[bboynoir]

You dont need AAS to "gain 3 kilo's". Post your diet in the Diet Forum.

You shouldnt get "Deca dick" when using a testosterone preperation alongside it.

thanks man.So its ok to use like 2-3 HCG injections a week when i am on deca cycle right?Anything ekse I should take as a precaution?

[Swifto]

thanks man.So its ok to use like 2-3 HCG injections a week when i am on deca cycle right?Anything ekse I should take as a precaution?

You should be using a form of Test with the Deca. Such as Enanthate, Cypionate or Propionate. Then combine Test/Deca with HCG for upto 12-14 weeks with an AI.

[O_TownKID613]

if you run HCG throughout at a moderate dose on a cycle of all fast acting esters should you continue use 2 weeks after cycle as well or discontinue the use