Banned
Yes, it should keep things minimal. I've only ever run tren at no lower than 300mg per week and the trensomnia wasn't THAT bad. It was there, but easily manageable. I would imageine 200mg/week would be very manageable.
Again, everyone will react differently.
Junior Member
Atomini,
Could you take a look at this...
http://www.************.com/forum/an...er-964763.html
( board makes stars on some of the urls that I paste for some dumb reason.. Just copy and paste the link and add "elite Fitness" w/ no space (what is this? No freedom of speech?!) where the stars are.... sorry it's so inconvenient! Making me go insane that competitor forums/sites are not aloud to be spoken of lol wtf )
It talks about tren only cycles. Seems crazy to me, but they seem to be saying that it carry less sides. Then to stack tern with test. Off the bat I would assume that your estrogen would take a dive from having zero actual test in your system to convert to estrogen. How can this work correctly in your body?
Last edited by rage223; 08-07-2012 at 09:08 AM. Reason: http://www.************.com/forum/anabolic-steroids/tren-dosages-first-time-tren-user-964763.html
Banned
They are partially correct. The sides are much worse when you run a hefty dose of testosterone with trenbolone. This is why I am completely against running a higher than TRT dose (100mg/week) of testosterone with tren. But I am ALSO against running tren on its own with no testosterone.Originally Posted by rage223
100mg/week test + 300mg/week tren is great, minimal sides.
400mg/week test + 300mg/week tren is much more heavy on the side effect end.
This is because when you run test at a higher than TRT dose, the body will react to the larger test levels by aromatizing more of that test into estrogen. Now you have high amounts of estrogen circulating in your system. Most of the progesterone and prolactin related side effects from trenbolone are exacerbated to a great deal by estrogen. The risk of prolactin and progesterone related gyno shoots through the roof in a high-estrogen environment. The idea is to keep this to a minimum by running a minimum of testosterone. This is why I reccomend a TRT dose (100mg/week).
I would NEVER EVER reccomend running trenbolone on its own without testosterone. That's just absurd - now you're going into the other end of extremes here. Without exogenous testosterone, the exogenous trenbolone that you are administering will totally shut down your body's own endogenous testosterone production. This means that the essential and vital bodily functions that testosterone and its metabolites govern are now being severely compromised. Now, you might ask the question "well, won't the trenbolone take over for those functions? And won't it be better since tren is so much more powerful than testosterone?". The answer is: NO!
Trenbolone may be 5x as anabolic as testosterone, but that's all it pretty much has going for it. Trenbolone is a progestin with very strong anabolic effects - it is not a proper androgen for normal bodily function. And when I say 'normal bodily function', i'm talking about far more than your libido here. The human body and endocrine system is not that simple. Testosterone is vital for proper libido function, it is a regulator of cognitive and physical energy, it regulates the population of thromboxane A2 receptors on megakaryocytes and platelets and hence platelet aggregation in humans, it is essential for proper mental and psychological function, and MANY MANY more functions and I cannot list all of them here. Just because trenbolone is 'better than' testosterone in one or two areas (anabolic tissue increases), does not mean that it is better than it in every single aspect and function. Trenbolone does jack shit in many of those physiological functions that testosterone governs.
This is why you require at least a normal physological level of testosterone in your body during ANY cycle of ANYTHING. If you do this, you minimize/eliminate aromatization which is the cause for making a few tren side effects far worse. The idea here is proper balance and proper levels, NOT complete elimination of it!
I do not understand why, in this little AAS-using world, people need to go to extremes at either end with these things. Listen to what Buddha said, and find the middle way, god damnit!
Junior Member
I'm so happy i found this board!
Thanks a lot for your help!
New Member
I am so glad I read this. This is a lot of information that I found great as I am adding Tren to my next cycle starting next week. I have been under the impression that I need to run a lot of Test. Currently I run 700mg of a test blend, after reading this I see I'm probably wasting money. When adding tren into the mix that is where I am going to get my results. Thanks for clearing that up.
Junior Member
How long should a tren cycle last? I usually see people recommend 8 to 10 weeks at which point side effects become intolerable. If I'm running only 200mg per week and the sides are not a problem is there a benefit to going beyond 10 weeks?
Banned
Generally with ALL anabolic steroids, hitting beyond 10 weeks is negligible in terms of gains. 8 weeks seems to be, for most people (myself included), the sweet spot for total cumulative gains. Once you progress further and further beyond 8 weeks, the gains:risks ratio begins to decrease greatly. It also begins to become a waste of money in terms of what you spent on your gear, and the now diminishing returns you begin to see as time goes on past the 8 week point. What I used to do was run my cycles for 8-10 weeks. What would determine whether I stop at 8 weeks or keep going until 10 and cap it at 10 is if i'm still making great gains by week 8. If I found myself getting diminishing gains by week 8, i'd cut it there and not let it get to 10 weeks. These days I just cap it at 8 regardless.
Then there is also the issue of: the long you are on, the harder it is on your HPTA being shut down, and therefore the longer it will take for your body to recover. The longer the cycle is, the more difficult recovery will be. Why not keep the cycles short, recover fast, and be back on-cycle faster? Though, this isn't an excuse to keep off-time between cycles stupidly short, it is definitely okay to have a 3 or so month off-time between cycles as opposed to a 4, 5, or 6 month off-time due to the massively long cycles run.
With tren, its obvious why things should remain short in the first place. Some people who can tolerate tren better than others may be able to run it for longer. Most people just can't deal with the disturbed sleep for longer than 8 weeks. Tossing and turning in bed almost every night glancing at the clock each time to see only an hour or 2 has passed since you last opened your eyes becomes a huge nuisance and discomfort. I've resorted recently to trying sleeping meds while on tren, but the best thing is to limit cycle length if sides are bugging you THAT much.
Junior Member
Okay thanks. I'll shoot for 8 weeks and see how I'm doing then. Since I'm on TRT recovery isn't an issue for me and if the sides are tolerable and I'm still making gains I will run it 10 weeks.
I'm curious about your past experiences with tren. What sort of gains did you achieve on your various tren cycles over the years? And how is your current high-dose cycle going?
Banned
My gains on my tren cycles over the years were all brilliant. Lots of LEAN mass, no/minimal water retention, and strength gains were always MASSIVE. A lot of people say that anadrol provides the most dramatic and excellent strength gains. Well, I tried anadrol once and it didn't hold a candle to what trenbolone made me capable of lifting.
My current cycle is going well, i'm in the middle of week 2, so its still early to be expecting strength gains and physique changes. But all of the telltale tren signs are there. I'm posting about it here http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...-Gen-Sys)-labs. under the lab product i'm using.
New Member
atomini, Masteron except where other anabol do you think good to be used along with tren?
Junior Member
I'm happy to hear your had such great results running tren this way. You've inspired me to use in a similar manner. I'm in the second week of my tren e cycle and this is my first cycle ever. I know tren on a first cycle is frowned upon but with your knowledge and all the preparation I'm doing I feel confident I can get good results with minimal sides. Either way I want to see how I handle this amazing compound. Sometimes I wonder why people bother with anything else when tren seems to do everything better.
By the way, I've begun to pass on this way of thinking about tren to another steroid forum I sometimes frequent. Hopefully it helps others understand what is possible with it.
Banned
Masteron is an excellent addition to tren, hence why I mentioned the only exception I have about all other anabolic steroids being not worth it is for Masteron. Though, I don't consider it NECESSARY to run with tren, it is an excellent addition due to its high androgenicity, which only amplifies the rock hard dry look that you end up getting with tren. Masteron can amplify this even more because it acts as a mild aromatase inhibitor, which will cause some water weight to be dropped, resulting in an even harder look. It also has the ability to lower SHBG. Overall, Masteron is a great supportive compound to any cycle, but it really shines with trenbolone.
New Member
So even if using enathate version you would stop the cycle at 8-10 weeks? I was planning a 14 weeker of test e 300mg and 400mg tren e. so if it's going to be a short cycle I would run an alternate cycle of 300mg test and 600mg tren e a week. I handle tren well. What do you think?
Banned
No. With Enanthate, you must run it for at LEAST 10 weeks. 10 weeks would be the least. 12 weeks is optimal. This is due to the longer ester resulting in a longer time required to achieve optimal blood plasma level peak, of course.
New Member
So no to a 14 weeker? After 12 weeks does it get to same point as running ace for 8-10 weeks? And how does 600mg compare to 400mg, is there really much benefit compared to sides?
Banned
14 weeks isn't extremely long for a long-estered compound, but it is still on the longer end of things. As far as 600mg vs 400mg of tren... you won't know until you go. But yes, it can be significant in terms of sides for some people, and everyone reacts differently as well.
The most tren i've ever used in the past was 300-400mg/week. I am now on 800mg and ending the 2nd week. Thus far I have not seen anything I haven't seen before, save for some insomnia that is a bit worse than usual, but I will only know as I get deeper into my cycle and it kicks in even more.
Junior Member
I'm confused about the difference between long and short chain ester cycle lengths.
I understand that short esters "kick in" and "kick out" faster than long esters. But if this is so, why would you take a long ester longer than a short? Shouldn't you start and stop at the same time considering the long ester will still be in your system well after you've stopped taking it and providing gains.
Banned
This is exactly what I wonder! LOL!
I used long esters once, and that was my very first cycle ever. I used short esters after that and never looked back. The benefit of long esters is mostly convenience for people who don't want to be pinning themselves every other day. 2 shots a week is all it takes for a long ester. Because they take longer to kick in (approx 4-5 weeks) vs short esters (approx 2-3 weeks), the cycle must be run longer. Cycle termination for long esters must also be done well in advance. A short estered cycle can be terminated and 4-6 days later PCT can begin. With long esters like enanthate, you require TWO WEEKS at least before you begin PCT. Long esters are slow to build optimal blood levels, and they are slow to clear.
Junior Member
But then wouldn't the long ester steroid continue to be in your system for weeks after you've stopped taken it? You would still be getting the benefits of it, right?
If we think about it in a mg per cycle way:
100mg test prop every day for 10 weeks is 7000 total mg of test.
700mg test cyp every week for 10 weeks is also 7000 total mgs.
Wouldnt the total mgs of your cycle be more relevant than the ester? Why run cyp longer? You'd be taking in an additional 1400mg.
Banned
No its not, it doesn't work that way. Here, i've copied and pasted this from a thread about half lives and frontloading from the educational threads section. The following is all based on a 7-day half life ester:
Regular way of taking AAS and its natural buildup progression (with 250mg being the level we want to achieve):
Day 1 – 250mg
Day 7 – 125mg + 250mg = 375mg
Day 14 – 187.5 + 250mg = 437.5mg
Day 21 – 219.2 + 250mg = 469.2mg
Day 28 - 234.6 + 250mg = 484.6mg
Day 35 – 242.3 + 250mg = 492.3mg
Day 42 – 246.1 + 250mg = 496.1mg
Do you see how slow optimal blood levels (250mg) take to achieve with long esters? This is why I reccomend that if one is to use long esters for a shorter period of time, that they frontload (and even then, it still 'kicks in' a while longer than short esters). In practice, the reason why you should run cyp longer is because its effects are not felt (the strength gains, the physique changes, etc.) until 4-5 weeks in, and by the time that happens, if you cap your cycle at 10 weeks, you have 5 weeks left of high optimal blood levels giving you gains - that's very short! This is not so with shorter esters where the 'kick in' period is typically seen at weeks 2-3, and if you cap your cycle at 10 weeks with a short ester, you have 7 weeks of optimal blood levels and growth.
With that being said, it is much safer and far more optimal to keep your cycles short in the first place any ways, and short estered steroids through their nature make this possible. You cannot possibly stop a cycle of Test Cypionate at 8 weeks with optimal results, because you are essentially stopping it right when you are in the middle of your optimal gaining period. Not so with short esters. The other idea behind shorter cycles is the issue of diminishing gains after a certain point, which i've discussed a few posts back.
Banned
Initially, blood levels peak nearly immediately. What you need to look at is the big picture - the overall blood plasma levels rising to the level you want it to. Usually by week 2-3 do levels reach steady optimal levels.
For example, lets say you want to do 400mg/week of tren ace, and you are injecting 100mg EOD. The half life of acetate is about 2 days. This means when you inject 100mg, 48 hours afterwards you will be left with 50mg in your system. So,
Day 1: 100mg
Day 2: 50mg + 100mg = 150mg
Day 4: 75mg + 100mg = 175mg
Day 6: 87.5mg + 100mg = 187.5mg
Day 8: 93.75mg + 100mg = 193.75mg
And so on, and so forth, until you get to about the 21 day mark (which is the 3 week mark), and see what blood levels get to at that point. See how blood levels need to eventually 'get up there' in the body to a steady level? And how much quicker it happens with a shorter ester than a longer one?
New Member
Im new, running 400mg test cyp and 50mg tren m,w,f, sun is my rest day, dont want to get crazy, and i have arimidex and nolva on hand, thanks to this thread ill procure something to counter the tren downsides too, am i wasting it at only 150mg a week? i know i should have stuck to test only first time but it is what it is....for the record maybe because of the test and alot of B vitamins i take anyways, i am having no sexual side effects, acne, i notice a slightly reduced cardio at jiu-jitsu but nothing major. other than in bed no incresed aggression haha
Banned
150mg/week of tren is plenty, especially if you are throwing it into your first cycle. It is a very strong compound. I would highly reccomend you do it EOD, period, instead of M/W/F to keep blood levels stable and side effects low. One of the other reasons side effects flare up, such as acne, is because blood levels are shooting and rollercoastering wildly up and down. Steady blood levels won't do that.
Junior Member
do you think one would experience diminished sides if they pinned ed instead of eod to keep levels even more stable?
also, if you didnt shed any hair on a test only cycle (500mg a week) would it would be safe to say that you wont lose hair on tren or is tren just a whole different story. Have you had any hairloss at 800mg/week?
Banned
I personally have never run tren ED, so I cannot say anything from experience. However, the word is that from those who have used tren ED, it does tend to keep blood levels even more stable and therefore people who do this report less side effects!
As far as hair shedding goes, the answer to this question is in the FAQ portion of the main post of this thread. Androgen-related hair loss is hereditary - you require the genetics for it in order to trigger it.
Senior Member
question:
does Methyltrienolone carry the same sides as tren ace?
Banned
Ah, yes... methylated trenbolone! Literally the strongest anabolic steroid ever, lol. It is approximately 12,000 - 30,000 times stronger than testosterone. Yeah, those weren't typos. I said twelve thousand to thirty thousand times stronger than test in the anabolic rating department. This is due to its methylation at the 17th carbon, which makes it available to be consumed orally, and also subsequently blasts its anabolic potential out of the stratosphere! Unfortunately, as you might already have guessed, liver toxicity is also pretty extreme with it. Its liver toxicity makes Anadrol-50 look like a multivitamin... Methyltrienolone is the most hepatoxic steroid EVER.
As far as it goes with its similarity in side effects to trenbolone, I can't really say. There aren't really too many people out there who have used this, as its primarily a designer steroid and it's very very rare. And as tempting as it may be to use it, I don't think I would ever use it even if I had access to it. I can definitely say that it is still a progestin, and would still act as a progestin in the body. That means you can expect all of the usual issues such as progesterone-related gyno, sexual dysfunction, prolactin increases, etc. But as far as other side effects that are seen with regular tren, such as insomnia, sweating, etc... I don't know. I would ASSUME that yes, those side effects would come with it. And all side effects associated with trenbolone would probably be far, FAR more hard-hitting with Methyltrienolone due to this:
Androgenic rating: 6,000 - 7,000
Anabolic rating: 12,000 - 30,000
Those are some pretty beastly numbers. Expect things to be serious business if/when using this stuff. The moment you disrespect it, you'll land yourself in a world of hurt.
Senior Member
i got some dodgy anavar, i was reassured its var but maybe under dosed, that being said i have never ran var before.
in 1 week: at 80mg
i have no increase in strength, ok rule out dbol,
loss of appetite
very bad gas
my arms and around my hips are becoming very vascular
sex makes me so winded after i cum , similiar to doing cardio on tren
cant sleep
night sweats
During my work outs my head is a water fall
i took all 80 before cardio last week and with in 3 minutes of cardio i was sopping wet using a 7.5 incline walk at 3mph mainly in my tummy and head locations.
5lbs of weight, water? not bloated cept from teh gas and it passes with gas pills all in 1 week Monday and Monday weigh ins only of eating clean at maintenance calories.
quick to anger, but i dont get douche bag rage. im just snippy , people walking to close to me annoys me lol
its like i have all the sides of tren with this var... hence why i asked about oral tren.
i am running 400mg mast and test 600 both enanthate, but its only week 2 of injections, 3rd poke was yesterday. So i am trying to figure out if i have dummed down var or a winny/var dbol/var combo... tbol?? doesnt feel like tbol
On t nation and such people talk about strength from var in 2-3 weeks. where on here people say with in the first few days
Sorry if seems off topic , my research has lead me back to Methyltrienolone
Last edited by mockery; 08-14-2012 at 10:24 PM.
AR-Hall of Famer
You forgot DImethyltrienolone. But I don't think that stuff has ever made it of the research lab.
Banned
Oh i'm sure that perhaps some athletes and pro bodybuilders have probably had it made for them. With all those designer compounds floating around, I don't doubt thatperhaps Diemthyltrienolone may have been one of them, though rare i'm sure.
New Member
I cant find any test to run with tren where im at. But i really want to do a cycle of tren. What's the worst that would happen if i ran tren only 300mg a week? I have did this before with around 25 pnd gain and the only side i got was lack of sleep for a week or so and night sweats. Didnt notice anything bad. Please let me know something asap because i just brewed up some fina and really want to start this week. What can or should i do? Plz get back at me, you guys rock.
Dave
Senior Member
maybe spend some time in the diet forum while you wait for your testosterone to arrive, make sure your diet is in order.
Banned
Mockery,
It sounds like you have something that isn't an AAS at all... sounds like some chemical that's just giving you these loads of side effects. I highly doubt it is methylated tren - that stuff is very rare to find to begin with. I would stop taking whatever talbets those are... its probably some chemical that gives all kinds of weird sides, and god knows what its doing to your body. I don't think even methylated tren would do as much shit to your body as you just described. Just stop.
This is rediculous, it should be very very easy to find testosterone... its the cheapest and most common AAS out there. Search harder, you should be able to get some form of test.
I cannot sit here and tell you "sure, its alright to do tren without test, you can run it on its own, go for it man" when that's not what I condone at all. I'm not here to tell people what they want to hear - i'm here to help people with the best possible advice I can give with the knowledge and experience that I have. And my advice on tren-only cycles is: don't do them.
Senior Member
i agree, maybe the lab monkey mixed up my mast e with tren ace. cause i feel like im on tren, the only thing lacking is the alpha male surge and retard strength.
New Member
Atomini, great thread. Very informative.
This may be out of your wheelhouse, but what are your opinions on low dose Tren in HRT?
I've read some interesting things on people using 75-100mg of test a week along with 50-100mg
of tren on TRT/HRT.
In your opinion, what would the positives and negatives of such a protocol be?
Do you think caber would be necessary with a 50mg/wk regimen of tren E?
Thanks.
Senior Member
i can not think of a reason not to run cabergoline for the rest of your life even if you are not on tren.
Banned
Yes, I think it would be necessary, perhaps even at a lower dose. Or even just kept on hand unless/until encountering prolactin-related sides.
lol, I wouldn't reccomend anyone to be on it for life. We don't know what extreme long term administration of caber might do to someone. I know that parkinsons patients are commonly put on it for a long time, but we've seen in studies that in extreme doses, it causes heart valve damage. We don't know if that may or may not also be the case for prolonged use, even at moderate doses. Caber is a great thing, but I would still reccomend using it for short periods, much like things like nolvadex.
Junior Member
So you don't see any problem with running a small amount of tren with TRT for long periods? 50mg/week perhaps?
And what is so great about cabergoline?
Banned
How long is "long periods"?
As for the answer to your cabergoline question, everything is explained in my main post...
Banned
How long is "long periods"?
As for the answer to your cabergoline question, everything is explained in my main post...
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