Idle thoughts by Pinnacle

[Pinnacle]

Pinn

We found that a metabolic shift occurs while on the low carbs for 3-5 days this promotes fat loss, but anything over 7 days the body reacts and adapts to the low carbs by holding onto fat cells more and releasing muscle tissue, a basic diet needs to be established for a number of weeks beforehand and the carb cycling needs to be worked of that,

.

I know you aren't debating this marcus.I enjoy other views on topics of this nature.I totally have to disagree with your "theory" that a persons metabolic rate slows at the 7 day mark on lower carbs (100g for example).I haven't found any studies to support this.I've made enquiries via e mail to Milos Sarcov and Chris Aceto to name a few on this topic.Reason being I know for certain Milos uses the same protocol I do.Actually I learned it from him a few years back attending one of his nutritional seminars.With that said,as you know,Milos trains several very high level BBers.You're familar with Gustavo Badell I'm sure.I can quote Gustavo from several articles(if you want) stating he runs 100g of carbs throughout his entire pre-contest diet and only carbs up as he feels needed.If you haven't noticed,every year he is getting bigger and bigger(muscle-wise).So that doesn't lend any credence to your "theory".And I hope it isn't a PB theory you are basing your claims off of Marcus.Cause I won't go there with PB since he isn't alive to defend himself.But I researched this guy thoroughly over the last few months and compiled a huge folder of articles from ppl catching him in lies,debunking his idiotic theories ect.So in the future should his name arise on this board(for any reason) I will in fact let everyone know who and what he really was.

Back to topic.I'd like to see actual research done in controled studies showing the thyroid turns on the starvation mechanism on low carbs(100g) at day 5-7 like you made claim.I totally disagree with that.I'll go into that later if need be.
I also want to see your actual documented studies from real life clinical conditions showing in fact on low carbs (100g which isn't low by the way)at day 7 will slow the metabolic rate and thus forcing the body to utilize muscle tissue(even on a high protein diet?).
If you don't have any studies to post and are only stating from your our belief/ theory, thats fine.I'll respect your postion and move on.But if you do in deed have actual studies to post,I'd like to see them.


~Pinnacle~

[marcus300]

Pinn,

Its my own studies what ive done over the 10years of which ive been playing around with carb cycling, if you do a search there are many studies claiming the same as me, but am not all that impressed with studies they contradict themselves many times, i will enlighten you further down my post on my opinion on studies,

i do alot of diets for many BB's and i do have to say alot are very different but the majority do lose muscle tissue if low carbs go over around 7 days, high protein/AAS/HGH does help but when the metabolic rate changes and believe me it does some muscle loss will be lost, this is why we like to do it alot slower tricking the body and metabolic rate,

I find it very strange when you say you been in contact with Chris Aceto because he also states the same as me in his book called "Everything you want to know about fat loss" page 76 - 3rd parra down, i will quote - "A common problem with reducing carbs is that, over time, the metabolic rate can begin to adapt, When carbs stay low for an extended period of time- usually more than 7 days- fat cells attempt to hold on by resisting the release of fatty acids, levels of enzymes involved in storing fat tend to rise and thyroid levels drop, both effect overall Basel metabolism and are part of the starvation response"

When starvation response is on the cards the body holds onto fat and shifts the burning effect to muscle tissue, we found this also with my experience over the years, using other compounds does help but does not totally stop the process,

The body as a rhythm and it adjusts itself when the the body Carry's on doing things for certain amount of time and this is around 7 days, Don't get me wrong i tried all this out with many bb's and we kept more muscle tissue if we bring the number of low carb days down under 7, so its impossible for you to say we wont lose tissue because we found we do, if you don't think you lose tissue thats fine with me, i am just giving my experience on a slightly different approach, like we both say, there are many ways to carb cycling so do what works for the individual and not what works for anyone else even if its a pro!

I cant comment on the 100 grams of carbs stopping this process because this would all depend on the individuals bodyweight and the maintenance diet, this is the diet what as been establish for a number of weeks, its impossible to say 100 carbs will or wont do,its totally irrelevant if Gustavo does this, it doesn't mean we all should do that, he would be different to many, he does what works for him and if thats 100 grams thats fine with him, if we don't know the individuals establish carbs for to stay stable it not wise to state 100 grms will do the job, but i can say 100 grams is way to drastic for me in alot of cases, i prefer to go alot slower this helps with keeping hold of valuable muscle tissue while burning fat, yet again i could go on about how many carbs for individuals but i will leave it there cause we should move on,

Its all about tricking the metabolism into losing fat, i could go on all day but i don't think i am going to convince you, neither you are going to convince me, but the end results we are both happy with our system, i have found muscle tissue loss with many colleagues when we go over 7 days even if protein is high, when the metabolic rate shifts muscle loss can and will occur in my experience,

With studies i don't really care for them because in this game one study says one thing and another say the complete opposite, i say personally experience is the best way to judge and ive played with this system for years, it was Dorains camp who introduce me to this and not PB, i DONT base any theory on anyone its my own experience over the years with many BB's which i state my best way to carb cycle,

There are many books which state what i say, Chris Aceto mentions it in many of his books, if you emailed him i am sure he will respond to what he believes in which is in many of his books,

I am not saying the longer low carb days are not the way to go , not at all if it works for you and your BB's thats fine all am doing my friend is giving my personal experience what ive experienced, i like to take it alot slower and ive got alot better results from this,

I will leave it at that because its pointless trying to convince each other, the end result is the same thing, and like you said you dont want to debate it,
i do think this type of dieting/priming is very valuable to any BB, all id say is try different ways because there isn't one way for this type system, as my view and pinns view slightly differ,

I dont want to go into the PB thing because its got nothing to do with carb cycling, and be be honest the man is dead and you didnt know him so he cant defend himself, i dont believe everything i read because i knew this man personally and not whats just wrote in articles by people who were his friend but the bodybuilding promotion thing got to them and the money over took and they turned on him, am sure you understand this, its a harsh game to be in,

The key to successful dieting is paying attention to your body, customizing nutrition to yourself, and adjusting your program based on your progress, there are no set rules so stick with what works for the individual and not what someone tells to do or is doing, listen to your body and adjust to suit, if muscle tissue starts to breakdown adjust it, end of.

I will let you carry on posting some excellent posts and move on, good thread my friend and an excellent topic i love carb cycling,

Thanks pinn for letting me air my view on your thread,

[oswaldosalcedo]

i have done ketogenics diets 60-80 gr of carbs
without losing major muscular mass,roid and leucine,micellar casein
to diminish the loss.

edited

Nark

thanks for supporting my lazzyness ...............lol...............

[Pinnacle]

Marcus-

Appreciate your post above,and the time for posting it.I'm certain both agree that a slower approach to fatloss is always best.It's also best to experiment with various techniques to find out what works best for you.

I wanted to let this topic go,amd move forward,BUT I repeatedly keep getting the impression you think I have all my clients run a 9 day low carb/10th day higher carb protocol all the way through their entire cycle/diet.This is NOT the case at all.In "CERTAIN" cases I've had clients in the higher BF range,and I've used this method effectively for the 'First few weeks"(Got it?) to get their BF down,so in turn they could go on the more conventional approach to carb cycling very similar to what you do.I have access(via my sports doctor) to the lastest technologies to determine BF.In "RARE" cases that I've used this approach(one that many well respected nutritionist use as well) I know for certain in those "RARE" cases NONE of the clients lost muscle mass.The body will not utilize muscle tissue for energy when "Large amounts of AMINO ACIDS" are present within the blood stream at all times.No starvation mechanism turns on.Carbs are introduced (even at low amounts) throughout the day.Starvation mechanism ISN"T turning on eating 6-7 small meals a day.Don't work like that.Anyway,a steady stream of amino acids flowing in the blood stream is vital during this "SHORT' time frame when this method is being used.I haven't had to use it alot(some reason you think I do though),so indeed it is possible someone could loose muscle tissue.If that would be the case,I'm certain it would be minimal at best, unless the individual attempting this hasn't the nutritional knowledge and his protein in take is way off.Then certainly he could/will loose muscle tissue.This is why I've stressed this over and over again in my recent posts.High protein during this time frame is mandatory should you embark in this type method early on in your cutting phase.
This is the reason why I keep my trainee's lean(under 10%) year round.So they don't have to endure a method such as this.In some cases I've had new clients come aboard with high BF and on a restricted time frame of 12 weeks.Certainly you'll agree 12 weeks to get some from 14% to 3% isn't an easy task.

Anyway,I was trying to avoid going back and forth like this on the topic at hand.I just felt the need to clear this issue up once and for all.
History tells us that we must question theories in order to find better solutions.For us bodybuliders,the search for the ultimate way to loose BF continues..........


New topic coming soon........

~Pinnacle~

[C_Bino]

Just wanted to put up a quick post here for everyone. My respect for Pinnacle keeps me from posting such things as "thanks" "right on" etc after every topic her covers as this is more of an educational thread and should be left at that imo.

But, I felt as though this would help some people out and give some additional support to Pinnacle's approach to BB. I have switched from Whey protein to liquid amino's, while also supplementing with fairly high doses of BCAA's (I opted for isoleucine and valine to be in the mix but I dont think it takes away from the fact I am getting a large amount of leucine as Pinn uses). I use the BCAA's in powder form 4 times daily 30g total (for those of you who supplement with the common pill form BCAA's at 300mg...that equals 100 pills daily), and also supplement the liquid amino's pre and post workout.

Immediately when I arrive home from the gym (have the amino's at the gym) I start to prepare my food, while I quickly jump in the shower. Then eat asap after that. In this scenario I usually opt for chicken breasts and yams or tilapia and yams. I also have a raisin/bran muffin with this meal (just for the bran, no real science behind this).

So, I can tell you already after about 1 week of this that I feel great and the one thing I can say I am noticing is a quicker recovery, and also a stronger feeling in the gym, almost asthough the lactic acid build up isnt as quick. Whether this is common or not I cant tell you but it feels very healthy.

Now dont get me wrong these changes are not huge or insane at all. But Im sure Pinnacle can agree that when you fine tune your body and pretty much live your life for bodybuilding that even minor changes are noticeable as you truly develop a strong awareness of your body and how it reacts to change, whether it be in diet, training or supplementation.

Thanks Pinn.

[Bear-StrengthWithin]

I use the BCAA's in powder form 4 times daily 30g total (for those of you who supplement with the common pill form BCAA's at 300mg...that equals 100 pills daily), and also supplement the liquid amino's pre and post workout.

Thanks Pinn.

Good post C_bino , Pinn I have to say this is one amazing topic so far , thanks for your sharing . I might take a look into this leucine thingy, too bad where i live they only sell in pill form in my country , C_bino What brand is your high DOSED BCAA from?

[novastepp]

I use the BCAA's in powder form 4 times daily 30g total (for those of you who supplement with the common pill form BCAA's at 300mg...that equals 100 pills daily), and also supplement the liquid amino's pre and post workout.

Thanks Pinn.

curious, do you supplement with the BCAA's preworkout as well? i do , and i have had what i would call...success with it. just curious and if you don't why not?


i know it may not be my time ro place... but if you have questions about the GI...
1. google will give you all the information you need.
2. no ned to really worry about it if your diet and training are in check it isn't as big of an issue as DEDICATION (find in previous pages).

Pinnacle, out of sheer terror i read this thread a lot and extract something useful everytime that proves i suck at life and my experiences are not worthy of talking about. however, it will help fine tune me into a beast at a future time and date of which i know not at this point.

to all others who have posted here... thank you for keeping the thread going because without questions we do not get answers. many people in this thread are educated and are only becoming educated further by the knowledge that flows here. i whole-heartedly thank each and every person of this board for majority of my success in teh small amount of time i have been taking my nutrition/training/lifestyle seriously. the knowledge i have gained here is merely shadowns and dust compared to teh wealth of knowledge many pass daily here. so it is with pure thanksgiving that i raise my sweet potato and my chicken breast, to everyone aboard the AR train, cause if you wanna ride with us...you better buckle up...cause we're gonna floor it!

[C_Bino]

curious, do you supplement with the BCAA's preworkout as well? i do , and i have had what i would call...success with it. just curious and if you don't why not?

Send me a PM next time bro so we dont clutter this thread. It already needs to be cleaned up.

But yes I supplement BCAA's (powder) 4x ed, and liquid amino's 2xed.
AM: 5g BCAA
Pre workout: 24g liquid amino's, 10g BCAA's, 5g glutamine
Post workout: 24g liquid amino's, 10g BCAA's
PM: 5gBCAA's, 10g glutamine

[Kash0620]

excellent read...especially about nutrition!!!

[Pinnacle]

excellent read...especially about nutrition!!!

THX for that post C Bino...I knew you were going to try this and I'm glad it has workd out for you.True,if you are atuned to your body supplimenting with things like aminos make all the differnce and YOU can FEEL the differnce as well.When you are training on the edge,you have to put the proper fuel in your body for it to run efficiently.In a few more weeks CB,you'll really feel the difference and see that extra bit of growth too.You'll train harder in the gym,get those extra few reps,which equates to growth.

~Pinnacle~

[nando01]

hey pinnacle
firstoff this is the best thread ever !!

i have a question regarding diet with potatoes.
i am now sold on low gi foods (thanks to you)

i have been looking at gi charts and potatos are always rated as 'high"
the lowest chart said they were 62

i see how sweet potatoes are lower (around 54)

some others:
oatmeal - 49
brown rice - 55
spagetti - 43
stone ground wheat bread 53
whole milk 22
beets - 69
apple - 38

the charts say less than 55 is considered low gi
i just want to get feedback as i am changing my diet for the better
thanks in advance
-n

[Pinnacle]

hey pinnacle
firstoff this is the best thread ever !!

i have a question regarding diet with potatoes.
i am now sold on low gi foods (thanks to you)

i have been looking at gi charts and potatos are always rated as 'high"
the lowest chart said they were 62

i see how sweet potatoes are lower (around 54)

some others:
oatmeal - 49
brown rice - 55
spagetti - 43
stone ground wheat bread 53
whole milk 22
beets - 69
apple - 38

the charts say less than 55 is considered low gi
i just want to get feedback as i am changing my diet for the better
thanks in advance
-n

I think Alex-69 did a fine job at answering your question.

Sweet potato is best IMO,followed by regular potato,then brown rice.It's been proven the human body does not metabolize grains well at all.So anything with flour should be used on a limited basis.Bread/pasta are Ok on occasion,and I mean occasion.If you have them as a staple in your daily nutritional plan you will slowly acquire unwanted BF.Blood types play a role in what carbs an individual metabolizes best.So if you know that and have an understanding/knowledge in biology,you can dial in your carbs quickly.


~Pinnacle~

[AleX-69]

let me add one general thought to those GI charts...:

the GI values are in no way "fix".. During the '80s there have been done a lot of tests on GI values in diabetic patients. Problem was: most values couldn't be reproduced even in the same test subject, so for me GI is only a rough guidline..
Moreover there are several foods which rate relativley low on the GI chart, but i wouldn't advise eating them nonetheless (snickers bar = 55)..
glycemic load is a bit more precisise here, and takes into account the amount of carbs contained in a certain food. GL=GI/100 x Carbs per 100g.
In addition you have to take in account that there are certain foods which have the ability to lower blood insulin (i.e. grapefruit...).

In conclusion i have to say that i am with pin on the potatoe topic .. Potatoes have a low GL, do not bloat me, lean me out,--... Rice (white) and pasta on the other hand have a rather high GL and in fact do bloat me. but i am a rather carb sensitive individual so for someone who tolerates carbs better white rice might still be ok.
.
.
.
but this is pins thread .. so i'll stop here.

[oswaldosalcedo]

i think that leukic is great option.
also i think that protein is no so bad (there is various proteins; micellar casein,whey isolates,egg and so on), is practical, example, i have to wake up very early at 5:00 am to train my morning clients and i have not much time to cook anything!
child instant cereal pap (gerber ..lol....) plus a lot of raisins,wheat bran,protein shake and one liter of orange juice (all things,near two grams of potassium!)

[IBdmfkr]

Pinn you said you'd choose Sweet Potatoes/Potatoes/Rice in that order..
What about Oats? Where would they fall in your nutritional plan?

[Pinnacle]

Pinn you said you'd choose Sweet Potatoes/Potatoes/Rice in that order..
What about Oats? Where would they fall in your nutritional plan?

Oats before rice..so sweet potato/reg potato/oats/brown rice

~Pinnacle~

[nando01]

pinn and AleX-69 - thanks for the response and the explanation on GI and GI charts



this thread is full of info and i appreciate learning how to eat healthier.

i think the whey and low GI advice have hit me the hardest!

here i thought i was doing well with whole grain wheat bread and br rice..
that was a start... but now i can tighten up even more with the new knowledge.

i am switching my diet with the new approach ...sweet potato/reg potato/oats/brown rice

thanks,
-n


PS re bread... my wife makes wheat bread with all natural ingredients... she grinds the whole wheat into flour with a wheat grinder and makes it from there
i know you have been bombarded with questions... but
where do you think this would fit on the list
the ingredients are:
whole wheat ground into wheat flour
yeast
honey
oil
water
salt

thanks again

[*Narkissos*]

PS re bread... my wife makes wheat bread with all natural ingredients... she grinds the whole wheat into flour with a wheat grinder and makes it from there
i know you have been bombarded with questions... but
where do you think this would fit on the list
the ingredients are:
whole wheat ground into wheat flour
yeast
honey
oil
water
salt

thanks again

Where does your wife's bread fit on 'the list'?

Re-read Pinn's post above.. I highlighted relevants points in bold

It's been proven the human body does not metabolize grains well at all.So anything with flour should be used on a limited basis.Bread/pasta are Ok on occasion,and I mean occasion.If you have them as a staple in your daily nutritional plan you will slowly acquire unwanted BF.

~Pinnacle~

Narkissos

[oswaldosalcedo]

anyway you can lower the GI with heathly fats like flaxseed oil added to the food,shakes etc or eat avocados with high GI food.
easy tricks .......lol.........

[Thrashers4]

Pinnacle-
I am a hockey player thinking of using steroids...I have been reading up on this all I can,but still have a lot of questions. If you would take the time to help me out I would greatly appreciate it...Please either post a reply here or email me with an answer. Thanks!

[Pinnacle]

Pinnacle-
I am a hockey player thinking of using steroids...I have been reading up on this all I can,but still have a lot of questions. If you would take the time to help me out I would greatly appreciate it...Please either post a reply here or email me with an answer. Thanks!

Post your questions in the open forum.I'm in preparation for a contest right now and my time is extremely limited to boards such as this.

Good luck

...and PLEASE DO NOT RSPOND BACK TO MY POST.I'm trying my best to keep this thread clean.


~Pinnacle~

[*Narkissos*]

For years i was trying to find the correlation between the ingestion of grains and fat deposition in men.

My former coach told me that grains elevate estrogen... but he never could quite explain just 'how'.

I came accross the 'how' by accident while reading random stuff recently

Grains contain phytoestrogens called 'lignans'.

Prime offenders include wheat.. and rice.

The latter brings up some interesting debate about rice's role in contest prep.

Holla Pinn.

Nark

[donpinn]

great post!

[IBdmfkr]

Bump for the bigman.. great post for newer ppl to read and learn from.

[whitt99]

great post man i just wanted to say hi to everyone ive been lurking around here for awhile but this is my first post.

[Kale]

Welcome to the board. Go an introduce yourself here man, more peple will see it

http://forums.steroid.com/forumdispl...aysprune=&f=62

[jef]

bump too. i wish pinnacle was still around to hit up more on more of the info that this thread started out with.

[IBdmfkr]

He won't be returning.. sorry.

[oldman]

Pinn was full of knowledge most of us would dream to have known.. To sit and pick his brain about AAS and general nutrition would have been a great thing. He is no longer on this site at all and currently a short ways out from contest so either way he would probably not be able to be much help as for the most part he is taking care of his business to ensure he comes out on top on this next show.

~Old

[IBdmfkr]

To sit and pick his brain about AAS and general nutrition would have been a great thing.
~Old

Yes very fortunate indeed.. He's a great guy and should do very well in his upcoming comp.. probably the most dedicated guy I've ever spoken with.

[Smak]

Damn my buddy got banned!

Very informative thread I must say.

Thanks for the good times and especially the thought & time you put in on this thread.

The Ghost of Pinnacle lives on!!!!

[*Narkissos*]

Great guy that Pinnacle is.

bump to an awesome thread

[Kale]

Maybe we can ask Sytem_Admin as a group to see if we can get him back. I recognise that he was an abbrasive SOB sometimes (never to me though) but the amount of knowledge Pinnacle has cannot be let go from here, he is just to valuable to us.

[Liftnainez]

Maybe we can ask Sytem_Admin as a group to see if we can get him back. I recognise that he was an abbrasive SOB sometimes (never to me though) but the amount of knowledge Pinnacle has cannot be let go from here, he is just to valuable to us.

I agree 100%.. he does more good than harm thats for sure.. he got banned for arguing with somebody over tennies.. gimme a break.. bring back pinn!!!! we need more info!!

[*Narkissos*]

Well done

[Kale]

Holy Fvck dude !!! You look fantastic good luck with the comp

[IBdmfkr]

Thanks bro's, it's my first one so it should be an unforgetable experience.

End of next year is when I plan on becoming a real threat.. Just gonna have fun with this one, if I do well it will only make it better.
peace
BD

[guest589745]

HOLY SHIT!!!

Dude, you are even bigger and better conditioned than I thought!

I'm jealous.....

[Smak]

Looking REAL good IBDMFKR.

You've really come along way since the last time I saw your pics a while back.

Keep up the good work.

The only thing i see lacking is your traps.

I think it's the fact that your shoulders are overpowering them.

G'luck with your first competition!

Bring the prize back to AR & Pinnacle & Ross & Saluu.

They will be proud!

[FranKieC]

Looking great brother!! mad dedication!