This might sound like a dumb question, but are you a real doctor?
Associate Member
This might sound like a dumb question, but are you a real doctor?
Anabolic Member
no, not back to the drawring bored. it just means anavar's gay. use somethin else.Originally Posted by Warrior21
Are u sayin that oxandrolone is not affected by the enzyme at all, or just a little?
personally i think u should ditch this cycle, PCT wait 8 weeks and then redo the experiment with test prop. Easier to tell. jmo
Associate Member
You're right, but I'm low on cash and have a ton of var around the house. I'm feeling a better pump today. Didn't even workout but I been pumped today. Maybe I'm feeling it because my dose is higher? Dunno
I hope I will see something soon though. Otherwise I'm going to 220mg daily or up until I see results. I'm sure I'll shit my liver in a couple weeks at that dose eh.
Actually I'm going to get my CYP3A4 tested sometime soon. Theres an erythromycin breath test out now which takes only 20 minutes to tell you how your CYP3A4 enzyme works.
I'm going to do that. Besides that I'm going to talk to a 'dirty doc' at a rejuvenation clinic around here. My 300lb roid head friend introduced me to him. The guys prices are insane though. Hopefully he won't rape me in the butt for figuring out why the hell I don't respond to this shit.
Anabolic Boy what do you think if I got a bit of test susp to see how I react?
Associate Member
I'm not even sure about Anavar metabolism now bud.
2/3 Deca 1/3 Test
Warrior, are you going to ever use injectables again?
Senior Member
guys whats the chemical that deals with breakdown of injectible test?
and what does the shampoo ur using do?
and where can you get this breather test that tests ur CYP enzymes?
Associate Member
I used to think that I was a non-responder, but now I realize that I indeed get pretty damn good results. I started with stan only and got great results so I started planning my next cycle. Next thing you know I was on the cycle not getting the BIG results I was expecting so I started adding in everything else under the sun with it trying to get these big results that never came.
These are very common mistakes IMO:
1.Thinking your going to look huge after this great cycle you planned out to a tee. Peeps that are huge after a cycle we're probaby pretty damn big to begin with before the cycle. Most huge guys have plenty of cycles under there belt. You cant just do one and expect to be in the same catagory as guys that have been using and training while on or not on for years.
2. Im guilty of this one--> Not waiting long enough between cycles. This single handedly made me belive I was a non-responder.
3.To many compounds. More is NOT always better. I can atest for this with my current cycle. Im getting good gains for a conservative cycle.
4.Diet, Diet, Diet & Training. I know everyone is diferent on this one ,but If I can train 4-5 days a week natural then I can damn well train 6-7 days while on. My bodys ready to train right after my next meal.
5. Not on the sauce long enough. I am no stranger to 14-18 weeks. I know peeps like short blast cycles, but some peeps dont respond that quickly to the sauce.
IMO I'd run it a little longer next time.
Associate Member
Pitbull I apprecate the advice but when the stuff is working for you you know it. My brother is using the same stuff as me and complains about the painful pumps all the time. I'm running more than twice as much as him and no painful pumps yet. My diet, training are set. I know I won't look massive after one cycle, but I should get stronger from Anavar eh? Five weeks in, not quitting anytime soon, all I've seen for sure is increased pump while working out. And it's been 2 years since I ever roided.I used to think that I was a non-responder, but now I realize that I indeed get pretty damn good results. I started with stan only and got great results so I started planning my next cycle. Next thing you know I was on the cycle not getting the BIG results I was expecting so I started adding in everything else under the sun with it trying to get these big results that never came.
These are very common mistakes IMO:
1.Thinking your going to look huge after this great cycle you planned out to a tee. Peeps that are huge after a cycle we're probaby pretty damn big to begin with before the cycle. Most huge guys have plenty of cycles under there belt. You cant just do one and expect to be in the same catagory as guys that have been using and training while on or not on for years.
2. Im guilty of this one--> Not waiting long enough between cycles. This single handedly made me belive I was a non-responder.
3.To many compounds. More is NOT always better. I can atest for this with my current cycle. Im getting good gains for a conservative cycle.
4.Diet, Diet, Diet & Training. I know everyone is diferent on this one ,but If I can train 4-5 days a week natural then I can damn well train 6-7 days while on. My bodys ready to train right after my next meal.
5. Not on the sauce long enough. I am no stranger to 14-18 weeks. I know peeps like short blast cycles, but some peeps dont respond that quickly to the sauce.
IMO I'd run it a little longer next time.
Associate Member
CYP3A4 breaks down test. Nizoral is the shampoo I'm using. It inhibits CYP3A4 production, therefore slowing test break-down.
The erythromycin breath test tests for levels of CYP3A4. Try going calling walk-in clinics, or labs in your area. If you know about a rejuvenation clinic around there you might wanna try them. Good luck, I'm going to be speaking with a doc at a rejuvenation clinic. He gives out roids like theres no tomm., so hopefully he knows a bit about them.
Associate Member
When I deplete my stash of Var yes. I spent all my extra money on a nice amount of Anavar couple of months ago.
Actually I can't wait to hit the Tren Acetate. Even if it's at 150mg/daily to see anything.
New Member
Warrior21: No - sorryGet that question a lot, thanks to my nick. It's actually a Doctor Who reference
I'm a *chemist* but not a doctor.....
Associate Member
Can you guys point me in the direction of finding some qualified pharmacologists to talk to? Like some forum you guys know about where I can go post and get real medical doctors' feedback?
Senior Member
pubmed?
"Vanity Redefined" ~VET~
pubmed ROCKS`
Senior Member
any updates for the non responder thing? cuz i still dnt feel it ad im hitting week 8 tomorow. but im gettin dbol and test prop soon, so well see how fast those hit me. if i respodned to ph;s b4 i duno why i wouldnt repsond to much more powerfull androgens now.
Associate Member
You got one up on me. I never responded to andro. My friends always told me andro got them jacked, I thought they were lying.
Associate Member
Oh but hey I been busting my ass studying and researching. Calling endos, rejuv clinics. Dude help me out, it will help you too. Research, talk to docs. Talk to anybody who knows more than you basically. Unfortuantely for me, I can't find many people who know much about steroid hormone uptake.
Senior Member
yeah i asked my dr actually. his reply was: "yeah i cant answer that. i havent seen that in 17 years of medical practice." but yeah i took an andro stack and i was mean and strong. like...see wolverine in my avatar?...that was me. haha i wish.
Anabolic Member
are you guys trying to figure out the pharmacokinetics of AAS, which ones?
I maybe able to help you,
this thread is too long to read, but I understand the basics on pharmacology and have direct reference material cause I am taking this coarse in college.
I understand you claim to be a non responder, but do you have any direct questions on the drug effect or interaction, I may be able to help you.
Anabolic Member
I need to write a thread on the pharmacokinetics of drugs
when I get back from the gym I will. but until the game is over I will help you
Senior Member
thanx andre. and yeah their claiming to be non responders. im just a late responder i think. week 8 of test happened today and im finally pissed. still not real horny tho.
Anabolic Member
if no specialists in the field have been able to help him I doubt u can with basic pharma course... but u can tryI need to write a thread on the pharmacokinetics of drugs
when I get back from the gym I will. but until the game is over I will help you
Associate Member
Just received an email from an Andrologist. He says "He's willing to answer any questions I have, any he cannot answer he will refer to the right people."if no specialists in the field have been able to help him I doubt u can with basic pharma course... but u can try
Sounds damn good to me. The endocrinologist offices around here are loaded with dickheads. Anyways I haven't really talked to many proffesionals on this subject. The proffesionals want to strip me of my money!
Anyways AnabolicAndre, I'm all ears! What can I learn from you? If you want to talk about the Cytochrome P450's just skip that. This thread is P450 galore. What can you tell us about metabolism of AS in the kidneys? Do you know anything about Anavar in specific? Also, if these questions are above you, may you run them by your professor?
I'm thinking of getting one of these proffessors on the phone one of these days. It's just really hard to find someone who's not radically anti-steroid.
Anabolic Member
good for u! im interested to what he will say.. .but most likely u will hear nothing new.. hope im wrong..
Anabolic Member
Ok brother I read through page three and Ill comment now...
I know for a fact testosterone and derivatives are influenced by cytochrom p-450. So hyper-drug metabolism is definitly a possibility here.
Ok so gene doping.....Now realize though there are 50 known P450s in humans and 15 pseudogenes. Each one has a seperate and different function. This is why it isnt a good idea to block the cytochrome p-450 This results in metabolic reductions, causeing a decrease in the body's ability to maintain itself, showing up as a wide variety of health problems also behavioral and cognitive problems.
Something like 1/5 of all drugs, prescription and non, block p450. anihistamines are more than likly one of them.
Ill finish this when I wake up I need a bed
Associate Member
I'm glad we ruled out the hyper-drug metabolism. I think I mentioned this a few posts above, but it's good to have someone with a better understanding back it up for me.
I'm thinking I may have an enzyme deficiency which is used to activate exogenous androgens. The part thats mind-boggling is that I respond to my natural test well, the body must be able to tell a difference.
2/3 Deca 1/3 Test
Good job warrior, seems like you are actually finding answers. Props.
Associate Member
Thanks dude. That's most likely due to my obsessive nature. I'm a completely obsessive BB guy. I once told the lord that I would trade my GF for 10 lbs of muscle. Low and behold, we broke up that next week, and I started getting huge and strong! hehe.
But hey dude stick around and join the party, were bound to get some answers here.
Anabolic Member
Im not sure sure, you must remember almost all steroid are sythetic chemical derivatives of the original testosterone. They have different affinities for bind and transcription.I'm thinking I may have an enzyme deficiency which is used to activate exogenous androgens. The part thats mind-boggling is that I respond to my natural test well, the body must be able to tell a difference.
Associate Member
Can you elborate? Was that in response to the enzyme theory? Or my theory on Natural test vs. synthetic steroids?
I can keep up with the lingo, but you're going to have to explain yourself a bit more. Thanks Andre.
Associate Member
This just in. Multidrugresistance gene, it also deals with steroids. The multidrug resistance gene codes for a P Glycoprotein which has to do with transport of drugs.
Anyone know more? I'm researching this as we speak, but you knew that!
2/3 Deca 1/3 Test
Do what does this imply ?
Associate Member
Pow bitches! Excerpt from an article that shows that the cause of steroid resistance is the fact that the P Glycoprotein causes rapid efflux (moving out) of the drugs from their target cells! It's possible that the steroids in my body may reach their target cells. Yet when they get there, they can be quickly moved out by PGP (P Glycoprotein). I studied Glycoproteins in a Microbiology course last semester, they act as protectors in our body. So it seems that the PGP is seeing the steroids as a threat and removing them hella quick!
Enter PGP inhibitors, there are only a few. I might stack all of them, the ones I can get my hands on anyways. Read on, it's mildy interesting.
"There is, however, an active process mediated by
the MDR1 whereby cells can expel such ligands. The
MDR1 gene codes for a drug efflux pump P-glycoprotein-
170, which is expressed on the apical surface of
lymphocytes and intestinal epithelial cells and actively
transports glucocorticoids and other drugs out of target
cells, thereby reducing their efficacy. We have demonstrated
elevated peripheral T-lymphocyte and intestinal
epithelial cell MDR expression in CD patients who
require bowel resection and UC patients who require
proctocolectomies for failed medical therapy (Farrell et al.
2000). This suggests that a subset of refractory I**
patients might escape effective immunosuppression by
steroids and other immunosuppressive agents including
cyclosporin, because these drugs are MDR substrates and
are effectively ‘pumped out’ of target cells. T-lymphocyte
MDR expression appeared to be constitutive as levels
were similar when active I** patients were followed up
3 months later, suggesting that genetic factors may play an
important role in determining glucocorticoid resistance
mediated through increased MDR1 expression. More
recently, we have shown that specific MDR pump
inhibitors (e.g. PSC 833) can significantly increase intracellular
human intestinal epithelial and T-lymphocyte
levels of cortisol and cyclosporin (Farrell et al. 2002)..
Demonstration of significant cortisol and cyclosporin efflux
from the apical surface of human intestinal epithelial
Caco-2 cells corroborates previous work which demonstrated
an eightfold and twofold increase in small bowel
and large bowel tissue cyclosporin levels respectively, and
a threefold and twofold increase in small bowel and large
bowel dexamethasone levels respectively in mdr-1a/
mice (Schinkel et al. 1995, 1997), as well as in vitro data"
2/3 Deca 1/3 Test
what is the inhibitor?
Associate Member
As I continued reading, I noticed this was very significant. Read on.
"Significant progress has been made on the determination
of the physiological role of MDR1 and related
proteins. MDR1 expression is greatest in tissues where
there is heavy exposure to toxic material – liver, lungs,
intestine and kidneys – suggesting that it functions in
normal tissues to actively export toxic compounds. The
location of the MDR pump on the apical surface of bowel
epithelium supports a defence mechanism in excreting
toxic metabolites into the intestinal lumen."
Gee, where are steroids absorbed/metabolized Warrior21? The liver and kidneys! So now it's kinda looking like the drugs are metabolized before they get to their target tissues. This would definately explain why I can pee yellow as hell just five minutes after my steroid dosages. I've always asked my brother if he pees extremely dark like that right after a dose, he replies that his pee is light yellow consistently throughout the day. Anyways you guys know the deal, I don't have to pound that theory anymore.
Things are looking up for me, there are inhibitors for this, and studies have shown increased steroid bioavailability with inhibition of PGP. I'm going to try stacking some PGP inhibitors with a CYP3A4 inhibitor (probably only some grapefruit juice 2x/daily). Anybody want to help me fight the good fight? I can use all the help I can get.
2/3 Deca 1/3 Test
PGP inhibitor........hmmmmmm
Associate Member
Well they aren't complete inhibitors, but they do lower the activity big time. If we stack a couple I'm sure we'd get some nice inhibition going on. Fix that and CYP3A4 and were talking.
2/3 Deca 1/3 Test
PKC412 (Midostaurin)
INHIBITING MULTIPLE SIGNAL TRANSDUCTION PATHWAYS
PKC412 is an oral multitargeted kinase inhibitor. It potently inhibits the FLT-3 receptor tyrosine kinase, mutated in approximately one-third of AML patients, as well as multiple other molecular targets thought to be important for the pathogenesis of AML. These targets include VEGFR-2, PDGFR, c-KIT and the Pgp–mediated multidrug resistance gene, MDR.7,8
Is this it ?
Associate Member
I'm sure thats one of them. Sounds like it has too many interactions though. I'd look into 'cleaner' ones.
I'm looking into it a bit more. Some of these inhibitors are available from chem supplies. I bet they are cheap. And also remember you can get some nice pharma powders from CHina.
Associate Member
Calphostin C, this one lowers progesterone and lowers action of PGP. Sounds like a great addition to a Tren or Deca cycle huh?
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