**slfmade's 20 week lean bulk/cutting log**

[slfmade]

You notice any increased libido sides?

No...just a little facial flushing. I only did 250mcg last night. Doing 500mcg tonight. It seems that's the dose where most people start experiencing increased libido. I sure hope I get the libido side. I've had shit for libido for the last 2-3 years. Browngirl's gonna leave me if this doesn't work!!! LOL....If that doesn't work I guess there's always test!!!!

[--->>405<<---]

No...just a little facial flushing. I only did 250mcg last night. Doing 500mcg tonight. It seems that's the dose where most people start experiencing increased libido. I sure hope I get the libido side. I've had shit for libido for the last 2-3 years. Browngirl's gonna leave me if this doesn't work!!! LOL....If that doesn't work I guess there's always test!!!!

i know thats rite

[slfmade]

So I finally got my diet together. I wanted to get your thoughts. It's be a carb cycle ran in a IF style. Let me know what you think I'll be starting Monday.

Stats:
I'll be 30 in 2 months
187.5lbs
5'9
~12% BF
TDEE = ~2650
Goals. Maintain as much LBM as possible and drop to ~8% bodyfat in 10 weeks

Schedule:
Mon. Lift Day - Legs - No cardio - MOD CARB DAY
Tues Lift Day + Fasted A.M. Cardio - MOD CARB DAY
Wed. Lift Day + Fasted A.M. Cardio - MOD CARB DAY
Thurs. NON-Lift/Fasted A.M. Cardio ONLY - LOW CARB DAY
Fri. Lift Day + Fasted A.M. Cardio - LOW CARB DAY
Sat. NON-Lift/Fasted A.M. Cardio ONLY - LOW CARB DAY
Sun. OFF DAY - HIGH CARB DAY

DAILY ROUTINE:
8:00-9:00 a.m. Fasted a.m. LIC Cardio (BCAA ONLY) Supplement 1/2 dose clen
12:00 Meal 1
3:00 Meal 2 (pre-workout) Supplement 1/2 dose clen
4:30 - 5:30 (workout)
6:00 Meal 3 (Post workout)
8:00 Supplement Keto
10:00 - 11:00 Go to Sleep

High Carb Day:
Meal 1:
8 egg whites - Scrambled w/onions, peppers, tomatoes
Reduced fat - Mexi Blend Cheese
3/4 Cup Oats w/1/2 Cup Milk (eaten like a cereal)
602.4 - 8/54.5/78

Meal 2
4oz Chicken and 4 oz 96/4 Ground Beef
Onions, peppers, tomatoes
1 1/2 Cup Brown Rice
1/2 Reduced Fat Cheese
ON Pro Complex Shake
1002 - 18/77.5/132.5

Meal 3
Shake - 1/2 ON Casien, 1/2 ON Pro Complex
4oz 96/4 Ground Beef
3/4 Cup Brown Rice
Veggies
3/4 Cup Oats
1/2 Skim Milk
Sugar Free imitation Honey
906 - 12/106.25/93.25

Total - 2510 - 38/239/303

Moderate Carb Day
Meal 1:
8 egg whites - Scrambled w/onions, peppers, tomatoes
Reduced fat - Mexi Blend Cheese
3/4 Cup Oats w/1/2 Cup Milk (eaten like a cereal)
602.4 - 8/54.5/78

Meal 2:
2 Scoop Pro Complex
Brown Rice 3/4 cups
4 Oz 96/4 Ground Beef
Veggies
1/2 cup cheese
726 - 14/44/106

Meal 3:
4 oz Chicken, 4 Oz 96/4 Ground Beef
Onions,Peppers,Tomatos
Brown Rice 3/4 cups
Shake - 1/2 ON Casien, 1/2 ON Pro Complex
1/2 cup cheese
821 - 17/44/123

Total = 2221 - 39/143/306.6

No/Low Carb Day:
Meal 1:
4 Egg Whites
Onions,Peppers,Tomatos
4 Oz 96/4 Ground Beef
1/2 cup cheese
Broccoli 3/4 Cup
1 Cup Asparagus
483 - 12.5/14.5/78.05

Meal 2:
2 Scoop Pro Complex
4 Oz 96/4 Ground Beef
Veggies
Broccoli 1 cup
1 Cup Asparagus
497 - 6.5/17.5/92

Meal 3:
Shake - 1/2 ON Casien, 1/2 ON Pro Complex
8 Oz 96/4 Ground Beef
Onions,Peppers,Tomatos
1/2 cup cheese
Broccoli 3/4 Cup
1 Cup Asparagus
748 - 18.5/18/127

Total = 1796 - 37.5/50/297

So what do you guys think?

[Sgt. Hartman]

Okay I came to your thread to be a smart ass and ask you if when your MT2 takes effect you're gonna change your screen name to BrownBoy?

But since you posted up your new plan I'll read it now and tell you what I think.

Edit: but since the only opinion you value on here is the nutritionmaster GB I'll stay quiet.

[slfmade]

Okay I came to your thread to be a smart ass and ask you if when your MT2 takes effect you're gonna change your screen name to BrownBoy?

But since you posted up your new plan I'll read it now and tell you what I think.

Edit: but since the only opinion you value on here is the nutritionmaster GB I'll stay quiet.

I value everyones opinion that knows more than I do. And you SGT are one of those people. If you had an ...ASK SGT ANYTHING...thread; I would post asking you to come take a look as well.

So give me your damn opinion and quit being a little girl!!!! LOL

And by the way...you ignored my HIT workout question a few posts back...so get your ass in gear and help me out, or I'm gonna turn into MJCHUB and post my workout questions in 20 different threads!!!!

[--->>405<<---]

I value everyones opinion that knows more than I do. And you SGT are one of those people. If you had an ...ASK SGT ANYTHING...thread; I would post asking you to come take a look as well.

So give me your damn opinion and quit being a little girl!!!! LOL

And by the way...you ignored my HIT workout question a few posts back...so get your ass in gear and help me out, or I'm gonna turn into MJCHUB and post my workout questions in 20 different threads!!!!

Dont mention him he mite show up! LOL..

[Sgt. Hartman]

Dont mention him he mite show up! LOL..

No he won't he's either already banned or in the process of being banned.

[--->>405<<---]

What r the cals and macros of the ON shake? That meal 2 for high carb day doesnt look like enuff food to be worth 1000cals.. Not saying its not 1000cals but seems like ud get to eat more.. Personally id prob ditch the cheese and the milk (except sunday) and use those cals on something more substantial.. Not sayin u should just sayin i would.. looks pretty good though..

On my no carb days i dont have a shake.. All i have is eggs and 24oz beef and 18oz chik and 1000g broc..

U know in 9meals u only have 2 that dont have cheese in them?

Sorry i prob sound like an "A- hole" LOL.. Not my intent.. Just telling u wat i think i tend to be anal.. Although how can i talk im fitting in a peanut butter and banana sandwich into my high carb day!

After reading ur above post i wanted to note i dont think i know more than u just giving my thoughts anyways

[slfmade]

What r the cals and macros of the ON shake? That meal 2 for high carb day doesnt look like enuff food to be worth 1000cals.. Not saying its not 1000cals but seems like ud get to eat more.. Personally id prob ditch the cheese and the milk (except sunday) and use those cals on something more substantial.. Not sayin u should just sayin i would.. looks pretty good though..

On my no carb days i dont have a shake.. All i have is eggs and 24oz beef and 18oz chik and 1000g broc..

U know in 9meals u only have 2 that dont have cheese in them?

Sorry i prob sound like an "A- hole" LOL.. Not my intent.. Just telling u wat i think i tend to be anal.. Although how can i talk im fitting in a peanut butter and banana sandwich into my high carb day!

After reading ur above post i wanted to note i dont think i know more than u just giving my thoughts anyways

Cals in ON is 270calories. The 4oz beef and 4oz chicken in that meal is 250 cals. Brown Rice is 324cals and cheese is 160cals. Total = 1004 with the little left coming from Veggies.

I'm doing the protein shakes because it limits my fats and and fits my macros. The cheese. It taste good and fits in my daily macros well. Same with the milk.

What would be the harm if it all fit in my macros?

I value your opinion too 405. I was saying I didn't want somebody like your boy MJ or Gym coming in here and telling me how to run my diet. LOL

I might also add that these food choice are almost identical to what I've been doing for the past 8 weeks on my bulk...just smaller that the lean bulk meals.

[--->>405<<---]

Hey sarge i found a thread on another website i lookd over on carb cycling .. Thought it was interesting.. Curious to yalls thoughts but dont know if its legal to post the link?? And u mite not feel like reading it.. A little long.. Slf thought u mite be interested.. Mainly wanted to get opinions on its accuracy/validity

[slfmade]

Hey sarge i found a thread on another website i lookd over on carb cycling .. Thought it was interesting.. Curious to yalls thoughts but dont know if its legal to post the link?? And u mite not feel like reading it.. A little long.. Slf thought u mite be interested.. Mainly wanted to get opinions on its accuracy/validity

Linking really depends on what the website is. For instance webmd is fine, but another steroid forum is not! PM it to me though. I'll give it a read!

[Sgt. Hartman]

Hey sarge i found a thread on another website i lookd over on carb cycling .. Thought it was interesting.. Curious to yalls thoughts but dont know if its legal to post the link?? And u mite not feel like reading it.. A little long.. Slf thought u mite be interested.. Mainly wanted to get opinions on its accuracy/validity

If it's a website with any ads or from another forum then you can't post it. Just copy and paste if in doubt.

[slfmade]

I'll also add that it's only a 1/2 cup milk so IMO I don't feel like it's overboard by any means - Macros for 1/2 cup skim milk are 40/0/6/4. Yes 2g of the carbs are coming from sugar, but I don't think that's too bad right?

Also macros from the reduced fat cheese for 1/2 cup are 160/7/2/18. Not that bad IMO as even with this I'm still well under my 40g of fat.

[Sgt. Hartman]

I was just messin with you and I gotta give GB shit every once in a while - I have no idea how he has the patience to do what he does. He's the man.

Re: HIT. I've said it before that there are varying degrees of intensity for HIT that IMO you can adjust to suit your diet and goals. Rest pause and drop sets are the way forward IMO regardless of caloric intake or goals. At a caloric deficit I wouldn't take the rest pause sets to forced reps or negatives nor would I do more than 3 or 4 max exercises per muscle group but rest pause or drop sets done to failure with minimal rest period are fine. Keep your work outs at 30 - 45 min. After doing your full body work outs for the past several weeks you should be ready for it anyway. Just listen to you body and do what suits you best. Overtraining is a over exaggerated concept IMO and as long as you work out with an intensity that suits you then you should be fine.

I'll bite my tongue (as usual) on Martin Berkan's IF diet and just say that as long as you hit your macros for the day and do your cardio consistently you should be fine. If it's easier for you or you like to eat at those time periods then have at it. If your goal is to get to 8% I think I would cut out the cheese and milk. Fish oil pills or EVOO is a better source of fat than cheese and pretty much any carb source is better than the lactose in the milk. Getting to 8% is a completely different beast than getting to 10%. To get to 8% the food choices of your macros DOES matter IMO. Your training split with your carb cycle looks fine to me although 1796 cal seems really low to me. I know it's only 2 days a week but if you feel like you're losing LBM that would be the first thing I'd adjust.

When are you starting this?

Good luck and keep us updated.

[slfmade]

I was just messin with you and I gotta give GB shit every once in a while - I have no idea how he has the patience to do what he does. He's the man.

Re: HIT. I've said it before that there are varying degrees of intensity for HIT that IMO you can adjust to suit your diet and goals. Rest pause and drop sets are the way forward IMO regardless of caloric intake or goals. At a caloric deficit I wouldn't take the rest pause sets to forced reps or negatives nor would I do more than 3 or 4 max exercises per muscle group but rest pause or drop sets done to failure with minimal rest period are fine. Keep your work outs at 30 - 45 min. After doing your full body work outs for the past several weeks you should be ready for it anyway. Just listen to you body and do what suits you best. Overtraining is a over exaggerated concept IMO and as long as you work out with an intensity that suits you then you should be fine.

I'll bite my tongue (as usual) on Martin Berkan's IF diet and just say that as long as you hit your macros for the day and do your cardio consistently you should be fine. If it's easier for you or you like to eat at those time periods then have at it. If your goal is to get to 8% I think I would cut out the cheese and milk. Fish oil pills or EVOO is a better source of fat than cheese and pretty much any carb source is better than the lactose in the milk. Getting to 8% is a completely different beast than getting to 10%. To get to 8% the food choices of your macros DOES matter IMO. Your training split with your carb cycle looks fine to me although 1796 cal seems really low to me. I know it's only 2 days a week but if you feel like you're losing LBM that would be the first thing I'd adjust.

When are you starting this?

Good luck and keep us updated.

Wow...Good info SGT. I can't believe I forgot about my Fish Oil caps. That makes sense about food choices when dropping from 10% to 8%. I was a also a bit worried about how little calories I'm consuming on no/low carb days. I'm gonna pay close attention while on and adjust if/when I need to.

I start this coming Monday, and I haven't even started putting my routine together. Tbody made it easy on me last time by putting it together for me. Now I feel like I'm on my own. I don't have a clue what to do, so I have a lot of research to do and little time to do it in.

Anyway, Going to the gym now. It's last workout of this 8 week full body routine. I can't wait for this to finally be over. I'm so burned out on full body routines!!! (In a fat black woman's voice) PRAISE GOD!!!!!

[--->>405<<---]

See me being the pig i am would rather take that 270cals and have another 6-10oz meat LOL.. Of course ur doing IF so u mite not wanna eat that much food since ur Feeding window is alot smaller than mine

Good luck dude!

[--->>405<<---]

Will do.. I pmd it to gb but hes prob too busy to read it..

[--->>405<<---]

I pmd it to slf.. I could pm it to u or u could get it from him if u wanted to look it over..?

[slfmade]

Yeah, Good think you pm'd it. You can't link anything from that site.

I gotta hit the gym, but I'll read it when I get home.

[Standby]

hmmm interesting. and you have clen in there, interesting. looking forward to the end result

[slfmade]

hmmm interesting. and you have clen in there, interesting. looking forward to the end result

I find it interesting that you find it so interesting. What's so interesting? lol

[Standby]

lol i honestly just wanted to sound weird. i meant nothing by it

[slfmade]

Okay so here is a very rough draft of the workout routine that I'm thinking of running. Please give me your input. I feel like this might be too much, but I'm leaving it to you guys to tell me if this workout if over doing it.

Before you comment on my lack of squats, deads, etc. Please note that I have a recent back injury and I can't do any movement the puts downward pressure on my spine.

Also note: BrownGirl is Tiny and wouldn't be much good as a spotter which is why I've had to incorporate a lot of Hammer Strength and Smith Machine into the program.

Here ya go:

mon: chest/abs
Hammer Strength Or Smith Machine Incline Press: Warm Up Set - Drop Set 10-8-6.…..followed by rest pause x 3
Hammer Strength Decline - 4sets x 10
Flat DB - 4sets x 10
Alternating weeks of pec deck or cable crossover - 4sets x 10

Abs - Superset the following 2 exercises with 60sec rest in between supersets (3 Sets)
Crunches (20 straight, 20 side right, 20 side left)
Leg Lifts (20 reps)

Tues:legs/abs
Leg Press: (The 45 degree angle one) Warm Up Set - Drop Set 10-8-6.…..followed by rest pause x 3

Superset: The following 3 exercises - (3 Sets)
Leg Ext: 10 reps
Calves 21’s (7in,7out,7straight)
Leg Curl 10 reps


Wed: Back
Hammer Strength Iso-Lateral Row - Warm Up Set - Drop Set 10-8-6.…..followed by rest pause x 3
Lawn Mowers - 4 x 10
Alternating weeks of Lat Pull Downs or Pull Ups - 4 x 10
Seated Cable rows - 4 x 10


Abs - Superset the following 2 exercises with 60sec rest in between supersets (3 Sets)
Crunches (20 straight, 20 side right, 20 side left)
Leg Lifts (20 reps)

Friday: Shoulders/arms/abs
First 3 exercises - Warm Up Set - Drop Set 10-8-6.…..followed by rest pause x 3
Hammer Strength Shoulder Press
Close Grip Bench
Standing BB Curl


Superset the following 3 x 12
DB overhead tri extensions
Incline Hammer Curls
lateral and front raises
shrugs

Abs - Superset the following 2 exercises with 60sec rest in between supersets (3 Sets)
Crunches (20 straight, 20 side right, 20 side left)
Leg Lifts (20 reps)

[--->>405<<---]

i need to do lower abs too.. i like hanging knee raises well i actually hate them but think theyre pretty good for lower abs LOL..

[--->>405<<---]

looks pretty good to me man.. i dont think its too much.. id also like to note i always work out alone.. never with a spotter.. dont get reps to failure but hey thats how it goes.. once i start bulking i may have to improvise.. thats what DBs r for

most of my friends r too slack and inconsistent and also slow me down and get in the way

[hex]

i agree it seems pretty solid to me. have you tried laying leg curls? i find they hit the ham much better then seated

[slfmade]

i agree it seems pretty solid to me. have you tried laying leg curls? i find they hit the ham much better then seated

I actually tried laying a week ago but for some reason it seems to put more pressure on my lower back - It cause quite a bit of pain. So I decided to stick with seated leg curls.

I'm not even 30 yet and my back makes me feel 80. Before you know I'm gonna have to finance me one of those rascal scooters. LOL

[slfmade]

Have any of you guys ever incorporated dumbell pullovers into your back routine? I've heard they're good for back, but I've never done them.

[--->>405<<---]

Never dun the pullover aT all.. Rnt they a lat exercise?

[slfmade]

Never dun the pullover aT all.. Rnt they a lat exercise?

Yep...Some people talk very highly of them.

[bowldawg]

I do pullovers on chest day. Pullovers hit many different musle groups. I really feel it in my core and triceps.

[Sgt. Hartman]

If you feel pullovers in your triceps then you're doing them wrong IMO. Your elbows should stay at a fixed angle so the back and lats do the work and not the triceps.

Slf, I'm on my cell right now so I'll go through your new training program in the morning but I do like the overall concept.

[slfmade]

If you feel pullovers in your triceps then you're doing them wrong IMO. Your elbows should stay at a fixed angle so the back and lats do the work and not the triceps.

Slf, I'm on my cell right now so I'll go through your new training program in the morning but I do like the overall concept.

Thanks SGT. I would appreciate the help. This is the first time I've ever put a routine together so I need all the help I can get.

[hex]

i find dumbell pull overs hit my lower pecs and the side of my ribs (where those little finger like muscles should be when i finish cutting) they hit those areas so hard its hard to sleep that night lol i love it myself. but i use the bar most use for hammer curls fo them find the weight range very useful

[Sgt. Hartman]

Overall it's fine but there's a couple things that if it were me, I'd change.

Chest - 12 straight sets plus a rest pause and a drop set are too much IMO. I don't know if you've ever done an intense rest pause or drop set to failure each time but I don't think I could do 12 straight sets of 3 more exercises afterwards. I would probably drop one of the pressing exercises and I'd do the straight set off flat DB presses first and the rest pause and drop set last.

Abs - when I work abs hard with drop sets or whatever I need more than 1 day of rest before working them again. Mon/Thur would be much better. 3 times a week is too much IMO.

Legs - very similar to my routine. Make sure to take the rest pause and drop sets to failure each time. This routine looks easy on paper but it'll probably make you want to puke if done correctly.

Back - I'd rather see you do the pull ups first. I like to basically rest pause them, ie. do your first set to failure, 10 sec break, repeat until you can't do any. Also 3 of your 4 back exercises are for back thickness and not back width. If that's a weak point for you and you're trying to work on it that's fine. I'm the opposite and trying to really work on width much more so than thickness.

Shoulders/Arms - Do you like or feel like you get anything out of hammer curls? In my experience they're useless and I'd rather isolate the bicep for a peak contraction, ie. supinated curls.


I'm no exercise expert but I know what works for me. Most important, I think, is to figure out what works best for you and this should be a really good start. Curious to see what others have to say about this routine........

[slfmade]

Overall it's fine but there's a couple things that if it were me, I'd change.

Chest - 12 straight sets plus a rest pause and a drop set are too much IMO. I don't know if you've ever done an intense rest pause or drop set to failure each time but I don't think I could do 12 straight sets of 3 more exercises afterwards. I would probably drop one of the pressing exercises and I'd do the straight set off flat DB presses first and the rest pause and drop set last.

Let me make sure I understand correctly. You're saying to drop one of the exercises. Then do Flat DB Press first, then the 2nd exercise (whichever I choose not to drop), then Incline Press using dropsets and rest pause? Which exercise would you recommend I drop?

Abs - when I work abs hard with drop sets or whatever I need more than 1 day of rest before working them again. Mon/Thur would be much better. 3 times a week is too much IMO.

That makes sense. I'll change it to Mon/Thurs

Legs - very similar to my routine. Make sure to take the rest pause and drop sets to failure each time. This routine looks easy on paper but it'll probably make you want to puke if done correctly.

I'm pretty sure of that

Back - I'd rather see you do the pull ups first. I like to basically rest pause them, ie. do your first set to failure, 10 sec break, repeat until you can't do any. Also 3 of your 4 back exercises are for back thickness and not back width. If that's a weak point for you and you're trying to work on it that's fine. I'm the opposite and trying to really work on width much more so than thickness.

Width is definitely what I need. I have very small lats and I really want that V-Taper badly. The problem with Pull Ups are (and this is embarrassing), but I can't do them without using the assisted pull up machine. If I cheat and don't come to a full stretch at the bottom...I can do 8-10, but when I go to a full stretch (as if I'm hanging) I can get the first one and that's it! What exercises would you recommend that would help me increase my width? What do you think would be ideal for back?

Shoulders/Arms - Do you like or feel like you get anything out of hammer curls? In my experience they're useless and I'd rather isolate the bicep for a peak contraction, ie. supinated curls.

My primary reason for hammer curls was because one area I'm lacking is Double Bi's. I just don't have much definition showing from that view. I've heard that Hammer Curls really increase the look in definition from that view. I also like the idea of supinated curls so I'll probably throw that it in!


I'm no exercise expert but I know what works for me. Most important, I think, is to figure out what works best for you and this should be a really good start. Curious to see what others have to say about this routine........

^^^^See Bolds. I appreciate all the help. I feel like I'm really starting to get a good grasp on dieting, but I'm still a clueless noob when it comes to workout routines. If you could give me your input on the above bolds it would give me a better understanding, and I can trial and error what works best for me from there.

Thanks again.

[Razor]

I like how this is looking bro

[Sgt. Hartman]

^^^^See Bolds. I appreciate all the help. I feel like I'm really starting to get a good grasp on dieting, but I'm still a clueless noob when it comes to workout routines. If you could give me your input on the above bolds it would give me a better understanding, and I can trial and error what works best for me from there.

Thanks again.

Yeah drop an exercise on chest or at least change one of the presses to dumbell flyes. You're doing 3 of the exact same pressing exercises and just changing the angle.

The fact that you're weak at pull ups and struggle with back width isn't a coincidence man. So what if you have to use the assisted machine or get a spotter, you're not there to impress anyone right? Pull ups should be a staple of any back program IMO. You could also get BrownGirl to hold your feet while you keep your lower legs parallel to the ground and then you just push off as you need help. This is way oversimplifying it but think of back thickness exercises as being horizontal pulls and back width exercises vertical pulls. And don't believe that you have to use a wide grip on your vertical pulls to develop your width. It's all about contracting your lats as hard as you can at the bottom of the movement and stretching at the top. Form and really feeling the contraction is much more important than going heavy, at least for me.

If you think hammer curls work for you then great, but they do jack shit for me as far as peaking my bicep goes anyway. Do this: in your double bi pose flex you bis with your thumb facing your head like you're doing a hammer curl, then from that position supinate your hand/wrist and watch how much more your bicep peaks. I like to rotate my wrist like this whether I'm doing incline bench curls, standing, or isolation curls. I think it's better for adding overall mass and developing a higher peak.

[gbrice75]

Yeah drop an exercise on chest or at least change one of the presses to dumbell flyes. You're doing 3 of the exact same pressing exercises and just changing the angle.

The fact that you're weak at pull ups and struggle with back width isn't a coincidence man. So what if you have to use the assisted machine or get a spotter, you're not there to impress anyone right? Pull ups should be a staple of any back program IMO. You could also get BrownGirl to hold your feet while you keep your lower legs parallel to the ground and then you just push off as you need help. This is way oversimplifying it but think of back thickness exercises as being horizontal pulls and back width exercises vertical pulls. And don't believe that you have to use a wide grip on your vertical pulls to develop your width. It's all about contracting your lats as hard as you can at the bottom of the movement and stretching at the top. Form and really feeling the contraction is much more important than going heavy, at least for me.

Great advice here from Sgt. Wide grip puts a lot of undue stress on the shoulder joints. I go with a shoulder width grip, AT BEST. When I do chins (as opposed to pull ups), I'll even do them with my palms touching - great for hitting back and bi's together.

[--->>405<<---]

Great advice here from Sgt. Wide grip puts a lot of undue stress on the shoulder joints. I go with a shoulder width grip, AT BEST. When I do chins (as opposed to pull ups), I'll even do them with my palms touching - great for hitting back and bi's together.

Good to know