HCG - How important is it?

[mediumpimpin]

Swifto, Is 300mg Primo weekly enough to counter estrogen effects while on a light cycle incl. HCG? Could more Primo be ran to counter it if not enough or arimidex unquestionably needed.

[Swifto]

Swifto, Is 300mg Primo weekly enough to counter estrogen effects while on a light cycle incl. HCG? Could more Primo be ran to counter it if not enough or arimidex unquestionably needed.

Primo wont do anything for estrogenic sides, do you mean Proviron?

Primo doesnt aromotase or lower estrogen.

[BGC123]

Swifto, just to clarify if i take 250iu 2x/wk should i be taking 20mg tamox ED? and if i take tamox should I still use an AI?/ Amazing post btw!

[fattywarbucks]

SWIFTO?

For a standard first cycle of 10-12 wks of test E @ 500/wk

Is 250ius, 2x/wk with .25mg Ldex 2x/wk good?
And what weeks would this be run?
4 to 14, right before pct starts?
Or is 10 weeks too much

Thanks in advance.

[Swifto]

Swifto, just to clarify if i take 250iu 2x/wk should i be taking 20mg tamox ED? and if i take tamox should I still use an AI?/ Amazing post btw!

No, just control estrogen with an AI as usual.

SWIFTO?

For a standard first cycle of 10-12 wks of test E @ 500/wk

Is 250ius, 2x/wk with .25mg Ldex 2x/wk good?
And what weeks would this be run?
4 to 14, right before pct starts?
Or is 10 weeks too much

Thanks in advance.

For 10-12 weeks from start to finish. Or week 2 till the week proir to PCT or up until PCT. It doesnt matter greatly.

If you suffer and dont bounce back too well. Ramp the HCG to 250-500ius for 5-7 days leading to PCT to really give your testes a kick. Thats what I did last cycle.

[fattywarbucks]

No, just control estrogen with an AI as usual.



For 10-12 weeks from start to finish. Or week 2 till the week proir to PCT or up until PCT. It doesnt matter greatly.

If you suffer and dont bounce back too well. Ramp the HCG to 250-500ius for 5-7 days leading to PCT to really give your testes a kick. Thats what I did last cycle.

Thanks.

Ill run it wk 2 to pct start with stane instead of ldex

[Swifto]

Hey Swifto,

I'm 3wks into my 10wk testE cycle. I'm running hcg 500iu/wk. I'm getting signs of gyno. I've been running Ldex @ .25mg Ed, and even recently bumped it up to .50mg Ed. Should I up the dose on the Ldex or add Nolva at this point? Maybe cut back on the hcg? Please help...

Whats your age?

How much Testosterone are you using?

Dont combine Adex/Ldex with Tamox. Thats exactly why I use and have clients use Aromasin now. Those 1st gen AI's are outdated now IMHO.

[tronics]

hey swifto, im finally using hcg for the first time(should have many times), i just got it in but im past half way through my cycle. what would you do in this situation, run it last 3 weeks to pct? at 250iu a day? does that sound right...thanks bro

[Swifto]

hey swifto, im finally using hcg for the first time(should have many times), i just got it in but im past half way through my cycle. what would you do in this situation, run it last 3 weeks to pct? at 250iu a day? does that sound right...thanks bro

How long do you have left?

You can do 2 things here:

1. Use a large inital dose now half way through. Something like 500ius 3x week for one week, then 250ius 2x week until 1 week proir to PCT.

2. Wait and use 250-500ius/ED for the final 14 days leading to PCT. Then begin PCT (SERMs).

Always control estrogen too.

[Swifto]

33, 600mg/wk test e (just finished wk3), 40mg dbol (1wk left).

Up your Ldex dose to 0.5mg/ED and see how you get on with that. Perhaps even 1mg/ED for one day, then 0.5mg/ED. Thats a fair bit of estrogen from Test/Dbol/HCG IMHO.

Lower your HCG to 250ius 2x week.

Let me know...

[Swifto]

Wow.

Almost 10,000 views!

Puts a f*ck off smile on my face, great.

[fig]

Hey Swifto...I got two 5000ui amps. Each came with 1ml Solvent. I'm going to use bac water but was wondering if I have to use the solvent as some kind of activator? Not sure why else they'd include 1ml amps, wouldn't be enough for 5000ui's.

[bjpennnn]

yes this thread should prob be a sticky

[Big]

yes this thread should prob be a sticky

yeah but if I make it a sticky the n00bs won't read it lol

[Swifto]

Hey Swifto...I got two 5000ui amps. Each came with 1ml Solvent. I'm going to use bac water but was wondering if I have to use the solvent as some kind of activator? Not sure why else they'd include 1ml amps, wouldn't be enough for 5000ui's.

The solvents are similar to bac water. There usually some sort of bac water with BA in or something similar. I use the solvents and 9ml bac water usually.

Good question though.

yeah but if I make it a sticky the n00bs won't read it lol

Very true.

[fig]

The solvents are similar to bac water. There usually some sort of bac water with BA in or something similar. I use the solvents and 9ml bac water usually.

Good question though.



Very true.

Thanks again Swifto!

[CoolStroybro]

I am trying to buy some HCG online. The brand is called "highly purified HCG by "NOVAREL"

Is it different from this Pregnyl everyone is talking about??

[tronics]

The solvents are similar to bac water. There usually some sort of bac water with BA in or something similar. I use the solvents and 9ml bac water usually.

Good question though.

i only have the 1 ml of solvent i dont have any bac water, can i just use this?

edit* i had 2 amps of the 1 ml solvent so i used 2mls...i had 5000iu of hcg so 250iu is now .1 ml?

[Swifto]

anyone know?

Once its mixed in the sealed sterile vial, its fine to keep in the friedge.

When you inject just swab the top of the vial, draw, inject.

Done.

i only have the 1 ml of solvent i dont have any bac water, can i just use this?

edit* i had 2 amps of the 1 ml solvent so i used 2mls...i had 5000iu of hcg so 250iu is now .1 ml?

Make it more managable using a sealed sterile vial and some more bac water.

If you had read post #1 to the bottom. You'de know I already explain this.

[bjpennnn]

hahaha good point huh. its sad i have sticky notes all over my desktop of all the important threads to spam at newbs. we should make people pass a multiple choice test or something to become members ha.

[bjpennnn]

cool story bro

[Swifto]

So how does inhibition differ from full HPTA shutdown is it the duration that inhibition is in effect that will eventually result in HPTA shutdown?

Complete shutdown is harder to recover from. When inhibited, endo. LH, FSH and T will still be in production when using AAS.

Is the use of hCG recommended for the whole duration of cycle+PCT?

Not PCT. Only during.

If not, why?

Its not needed as HCG will maintain endo. test production when using androgens that cause total shutdown of endo. androgens in a normal setting. We want to use HCG to maintain testiculas size/function.

say 1-8 weeks of test

+4 weeks of PCT (nolva)

in total 12 weeks

so 250iu of eod for 12 weeks?

250ius 2x week will usually suffice. If your older, 3x week.

bolds

I am trying to buy some HCG online. The brand is called "highly purified HCG by "NOVAREL"

Is it different from this Pregnyl everyone is talking about??

Its a generic HCG. Never used it. Only used Pregnyl. Thats not to say the generic doesnt work though.

[gettingthere]

bolds

Its a generic HCG. Never used it. Only used Pregnyl. Thats not to say the generic doesnt work though.

Hey swifto just wondering if you could help me out a bit here!! just wondering my friend is running a sust 250 cycle and is planning on running HCG every day at the end for 3 or 4weeks, do you think the guy needs more pct?

His sust doasges are 500mg a week, 2 injections
He's running Dbol 5mg ED for 4 weeks at start
Then the hcg

What do you think?

[PK-V]

bolds

so if you were to use hcg on cycle it would eliminate the need for it in pct as your already prepped from using it on cycle to maintain endo use and you haven't been shutdown

so you can go straight into PCT recovery without

so the people that do use hcg for pct are the people who

have been cycling and have not been using hcg on cycle and then use it to a boost to the system as they are shutdown hard from not keeping there balls in the game?

[Swifto]

so if you were to use hcg on cycle it would eliminate the need for it in pct as your already prepped from using it on cycle to maintain endo use and you haven't been shutdown

so you can go straight into PCT recovery without

so the people that do use hcg for pct are the people who

have been cycling and have not been using hcg on cycle and then use it to a boost to the system as they are shutdown hard from not keeping there balls in the game?

Exactly right.

HCG use is warranted during PCT if it hasnt been used already during the cycle.

[bjpennnn]

ya he needs to run this
Day 1-18: Clomid @ 100 mgs
Day 1-18: Nolva @ 40 mgs
Day 18-36: Clomid @ 50 mgs
Day 18-36: Nolva @ 20 mgs

running hcg everyday for 3-4 weeks is a bad idea

[gettingthere]

ya he needs to run this
Day 1-18: Clomid @ 100 mgs
Day 1-18: Nolva @ 40 mgs
Day 18-36: Clomid @ 50 mgs
Day 18-36: Nolva @ 20 mgs

running hcg everyday for 3-4 weeks is a bad idea

Is this during the cycle or at the end of the cycle days?

What sort of dosages would you run hcg at?

[bjpennnn]

man its obvious you have done no research. You run the pct at the end of your cycle.

[gettingthere]

man its obvious you have done no research. You run the pct at the end of your cycle.

Done plenty of research before on most things to do with AAS, its just im not used to the pct (yes i know post = after cycle therapy) phase as im not looking at cycling just yet!!! i appreciate your help though dont get me wrong

By the way i think he is running Nolva at 40/20/20/20

[Swifto]

Done plenty of research before on most things to do with AAS, its just im not used to the pct (yes i know post = after cycle therapy) phase as im not looking at cycling just yet!!! i appreciate your help though dont get me wrong

By the way i think he is running Nolva at 40/20/20/20

Have you actually read the first post of this entire thread. I answer all your questions?

[Ben-Lee]

swifto i tried opening a thread however didnt have much response. ive only found this site out not long ago. and now read your information and a bit annoyed i didnt find it earlier im on the 7th week of my omna250 only cycle which im running for 10 weeks. i hav pregnyl 5000iu clomid 100mg tabs and hav 20 of. also nolva im getting shortly is it to late to start running hcg? should i run it in the last 3 weeks of my cycle ? from what ive been told from mates is to run it after and now after reading your information i wish i ran throughout the whole cycle. so basically all im asking is if i should begin my hcg now for the last 3 weeks of my cycle and at what dosage ? and then week 11 begin clomid cheers. this is my first cycle and have had good gains with minimal side effects want to ensure all is well after gained a solid 6.5kgs.

[RW3333]

Swifto,

I am in week 7 of my 10 week test cyp / eq cycle. I have not been using hcg, but got my hands on some a few days ago. How much do you recommend I take?

Thank you

[ArmyMan04]

Dude swifto this post just gave me a big chubby... so 3.5 inches...


..don't hate

[BennyLom]

Swifto,
On a first cycle, I want to use a lower dose of hCG (still young and not that big) and so a few questions.

1.) For mixing/diluting the hCG (5.000IU's), is this correct: If mixing 5000IU’s with 10ml water then 1ml = 500IU’s, mixed with 20ml then 1ml = 250Ius, 40ml should thus be 125IU’s, correct?

2.) How does 125IU's twice a week sound (8 week cycle)?

3.) Since I cannot find bact water I plan to use "water for irrigation" instead which is not as sterile. How long do you reckon this will last in a cooler once mixed?

[ArmyMan04]

Swifto,

3.) Since I cannot find bact water I plan to use "water for irrigation" instead which is not as sterile. How long do you reckon this will last in a cooler once mixed?

You can get bac water at AR-r (banner above) and vials, etc.

[MercuryEvo]

what do I mix the HCG in before drawing and injecting? the 50ml sterile viles from ar-r??? Can I leave it in that vile and put it in the fridge? It comes in a glass vile so it's not resealable and I'm very worried about sterility

[MercuryEvo]

what do I mix the HCG in before drawing and injecting? the 50ml sterile viles from ar-r??? Can I leave it in that vile and put it in the fridge? It comes in a glass vile so it's not resealable and I'm very worried about sterility

anyone know?

[panntastic]

is it a muti use vial? (like a aas 10ml vial)

[BJJ]

So how important is HCG?

When our HPTA's are "shutdown" we have to distinguish between short-term inhibtion and long-term dysfunction.

Short-term inhibition of testosterone production comes primarily from negative feedback at the pituitary and hypothalamus, which reduces LH output. This could be described as a reduction in the signal to produce testosterone. This LH suppression recovers quickly.

However, with time, it leads to testicular dysfunction. Without LH from the pituitary, the testes atrophy from disuse. This testicular dysfunction could be described as a reduction in the responsiveness to a signal to produce testosterone.

The hypothalamus and pituitary seem to recover fairly quickly following the use of androgens. GnRH, LH and FSH rise fairly quickly post cycle, but endogenous testosterone levels dont. As confirmed in this review by William Llewellyn. It shows that LH levels rise fairly quickly (on the 3rd week) after Testosterone Enanthate injections of 250mg weekly for 21 weeks. So it seems the hypothalamus and pituitary are not the problem in restarting endogenous testosterone production post cycle.

After recent correspondance with Dr.Crisler (Swale) he confirmed ganadotrophin levels were not to blame in restarting the HPTA. So what is?

If LH levels rise post cycle (the majority of the time) the reason why endogenous testosterone levels DONT rise, is the testes. Or testicular dysfunction. Testicular dysfunction is when the testes become atrophied from disuse or desensitised to ganadotrophins, such as LH. This could also be described as being the onset of primary hypogonadism.

Primary hypogonadism is when the testes no longer respond to LH. The testes have a lowered sperm concentration/production and endogenous testosterone level, although LH and FSH are above normal levels. This can be due to desease (Klinefelter's syndrome), over use of anabolic steroids, as described in this study or overuse of HCG. The simple answer to primary hypogonadism is HRT.

So if the testes (testicular dysfunction) are the main culprit in restoring testosterone production post cycle how can we maintain testicular function and endogenous testosterone production even when "shutdown" using andorgens? Simple - HCG.

HCG has the ability to maintain endogenous testosterone production and ITT (Intra-Testicular Testosterone) by stimulating the testes (directly) even when shutdown from androgens, such as Testosterone Enathate, shown in this study.

HCG is VERY important in cycles IMHO. It prevents the main reason the HPTA doesnt recover immediately post cycle - testicular dysfunction. It should be a staple of EVERY cycle causing shutdown IMHO.

I suggest HCG be used at 125-250ius 2-3 times weekly (as per Dr.Crisler's advice) with an AI throughout the cycle lasting 6-12 weeks. This will maintain testicular size and function and prevent testicular dysfunction. It should also be noted that administering over "500ius will cause an increase in estrogen and progesterone, further hindering recovery" - Dr.Crisler.


For those wanting to convert their HCG doses into something more managable. Here's how:

HCG comes in 1500ius and 5000ius amps. Usually from Pregnyl. Chinese suppliers also stock their HCG in these two denominations too.

You need to get some sterile empty 10ML glass serum vials. You can get these from AR-R.

You also need to get some bac. water. If you were to mix 5000ius with 10ML bac. water, 1ML = 500ius. If you were to mix 1500ius with 10ML bac. water, 1ML = 150ius.

Once mixed, refridgerate. I tend to use my mixed HCG within 30-45 days.

Its really that simple.


This thread has been written on correspondance from Dr.Crisler (Swale), Concilliator and my own research gathered.

The bold seems to be my case, as showed with my BW.
I decided to start HCG @ 500 iu eod for two weeks plus, in the first week, clomid @ 50 mg ed and nolva @ 20 mg ed, while in the second week only nolva @ 20 mg ed.

What do you think?

[Swifto]

Thats ok. Just kickstart your testes IMHO.

Control estrogen too. You dont want too much ER activity at the HP as it will further reduce endo. LH, FSH.

I'd do:

wk 1-3 HCG 500ius/ED or EOD
wk 1-4 Aromasin 10mg/EOD
wk 1-3-9 Tamox 20mg/ED, then ramp for 7 days to 40mg/ED, then 20mg/ED for 5-6 weeks
wk 3-9 Clomid 25mg/ED