The Unofficial "Ask a Muslim" Thread.

[*RAGE*]

untill tomorrow have a great night

[BuffedGuy]

Prone2Rage, let's end this please. Debating politics is going to derail this thread. Let's keep this thread about religion. I am prone to rage myself when it comes to the Israel-Palestine issue...let's just move away from this topic. Everyone knows where we stand. It's not like any of us is going to change our views on the topic. I apologize again for my harshness. I am having a hard time controlling my words, and so I kindly ask you to help me by not discussing political topics in this particular thread. If you have a question about the Islamic religion itself, please ask away.

Peace be unto you.

[BuffedGuy]

Argh, you already replied...OK one second, let me take a look...

[BuffedGuy]

Alright, you know what, I'll let you have the last word. If I reply, it will just go on endlessly.

Take care.

[*RAGE*]

It is up to you if you dont respond I will leave it at that

PS you cant not have my name and if you did not know that was a joke you can be prone to rage 2

[quarry206]

why Does some Islamic government laws stop female and males from playing or even watching sports together???

article:
http://sports.yahoo.com/sow/news?slu...v=ap&type=lgns

I was just wondering why this was such a big deal..

[BuffedGuy]

Peace be unto you, Quarry.

In the Name of God, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful.

why Does some Islamic government laws stop female and males from playing or even watching sports together???

article:
http://sports.yahoo.com/sow/news?slu...v=ap&type=lgns

I was just wondering why this was such a big deal..

Playing sports is not forbidden in Islam. In fact, it is something that is good if it strengthens the body and keeps a person fit. Prophet Muhammad [s] was himself a wrestler, and he [s] also used to race. He [s] encouraged archery. Furthermore, Prophet Muhammad [s] warned against obesity, saying that it is the link to a great many diseases.

Sports are perfectly OK and even good (for both men and women), so long as a person does not get so obsessed with them that it distracts from prayer and worship. This is because God said:

“And I created not the jinn and mankind except that they should worship Me.” (Quran, 51:26)

Therefore, if this is the purpose of our existence, we should not do anything that takes away from that.

The problem, however, is with regards to mixed gender (co-ed) sports. This is forbidden in Islam. Islam enjoins strict gender segregation. This is based on our belief that this is closer to purity, and it is the pinnacle of chastity. Men and women are not supposed to interact unless it is necessary. So girls should go to all-girls schools and boys to all-boys schools. In Pakistan, for example, the buses are segregated: women sit in the front half of the bus, and men in the back half. Men and women have separate lines at banks, and in fact there is an unwritten rule that if there is no separate line for women, then women can just skip to the front of the line. The gyms have separate facilities for men and women. At the gym I used to go to, the swimming pool used to alternate every other day between men and women.

As for the reasons for this, this goes back to the same explanation I gave for why women cover. (I just answered the question a few posts up.) The pagan religions used to be extremely lax with regard to women covering up and inter-gender mixing. The monotheistic Abrahamic faiths came to change this. That is why in traditional Judaism--from which both Christianity and Islam come from--such gender segregation was practiced:

Traditional Jewish synagogues are sex segregated. Sex education in public schools is often sex segregated. Private schools are sometimes entirely sex segregated or contain an entirely sex segregated student body. Some trains have, apart from mixed-sex cars, also cars for women only.

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclop...er-segregation

This was also the case in early Christianity. We Muslims believe that the gender mixing which has become prevalent today is a modern day blasphemy and heresy, a return to the ways of paganism. We believe that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all share a common ancestry in monotheism and modesty.

A recent Gallup Poll showed that the vast majority of Muslim women wanted to follow Islam and its traditional values. They do not at all want to adopt the feminism of the West. Yes, they do have grievances against the way things are in the Muslim world today, but these are almost always things that have to do with tribal culture and backwardness, rather than with religion.

Contrary to what the Westerners would believe, the Muslim women of the world are not yearning to break free from their hijabs (headscarves) and veils. Rather, more and more women are donning the hijab (headscarf) every year, to the point where it has become a statement of identity and even revolution. I've heard it from multiple Muslim women who wear the hijab in the West, that people come up to them and say they feel sorry for them that they were forced to wear the hijab (headscarf). This is always a good joke for us Muslims, because it is well-known that most Muslim women don the hijab (headscarf) against their parents' wishes. The younger generation has turned more religious than their more cultural (as opposed to religious) parental generation.

Muslim women *do* want many things to change in the Muslim world, but they want it done based on their own terms, not Western imperial and colonial feminism shoved down their throats. More importantly, most Muslim women are concerned with more fundamental issues, such as having starving children who cannot afford to go to school. So these colonial feminists--if they really wanted to help the people of the Muslim world--they would abandon their polemical stance against our religion and way of life. Help by giving food, water, health care, etc--not worrying about such peripheral and trivial issues such as if a woman is covered or not.

Anyways, it seems like I've gone off on a spiteful diatribe and off tangent, so let me go back to your question: Men and women aren't even allowed to shake hands, because that would be touching. Well, there is an exception and concession made for old women; so a man can shake hands with an old woman (post-menopausal) but not a young woman. Based on this, sports that would involve contact would definitely be off-limits.

As for women watching men play sports, there is nothing wrong with that, and I do not know why they forbade that. However, men are not allowed to watch women play sports. Women are allowed to play sports, even without their headscarves and covering, but only amongst themselves, without any men in the room. For example, ice rinks in parts of the Muslim world will give separate days for women, and then women can skate without wearing any extra covering, i.e. without the headscarf, overcoat, etc...they can even wear shorts (as long as they go up to the knees). But again, that is only if they are alone without men in the room.

One last point: the article was about Iran, which is Shi'ite. I consider Shi'ism to be a separate religion from mine. Please see some of my earlier posts on this issue.

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.

[Voland]

I think muslims have an issue with tatts, is that true? why?
Today i've met this arab girl (i think) and prolly she is somehow muslim (she had that hand necklace). Are tatts an issue for muslims? Mine reflect my spiritual, ethnical and phylosophical beliefs.

[BuffedGuy]

I think muslims have an issue with tatts, is that true? why?
Today i've met this arab girl (i think) and prolly she is somehow muslim (she had that hand necklace). Are tatts an issue for muslims? Mine reflect my spiritual, ethnical and phylosophical beliefs.

Peace be unto you, Voland.

I answered the question here:

http://forums.steroid.com/showpost.p...&postcount=227

[BuffedGuy]

Something in that direction

Anyway what i wanted to say to you was
that i saw that you sometimes said that the
extremeists are only 5% of the muslim world.

I have to to disagre very much here,
I live in Europe and i see things and acts
that you who live in the US do not see.

In my area where i live the muslims are VERY
hostile against the way we chose to live here.
The majority of them are wahabias.

If its only 5% that are hostile then i want to know
where the remaining 90% is hiding, Im not saying
every muslim in sweden are extremeists and hostile
but they do seem to be more of them then the
other part.

Here is the video for the pictures i posted:

http://se.youtube.com/watch?v=ocU5x_03MDM

Peace be unto you, NightWolf.

Your opinion is based on anecdotal evidence/experience. I have cold hard statistical facts from Gallup Poll which polled the one billion Muslims in the world. The vast majority were shown to be moderate, peace-loving people. Only a very small percentage were extremists, and interestingly enough, a smaller percentage of Muslims polled agreed to killing civilians as compared to Americans.

Just to give you an example: in Pakistan, which Americans consider the hotbed of terrorism, they conducted a poll and asked Pakistanis: if Al-Qaeda was on the ballot, would you vote for them? Less than one percent said yes. They asked about if the Taliban were on the ballot, and only 3% said yes. (This includes the NWFP, which is the tribal area bordering Afghanistan!) The overwhelming majority condemned the 9/11 attacks, and believe killing civilians is not permissible.

So we can either take your opinion or the opinion of Gallup Poll.

I want to warn you that you are doing a similar thing to what Stormfront-type white racists do. They will argue that the majority of the black men they know are criminals, thugs, and hoodlums...and they will even try to show us proof of that by talking about how many blacks are in jail, or images of black criminals, etc. It's a really similar mentality between the white racists and Islamophobes. The white racists will talk about how blacks "just like to kill each other all the time" and are "prone to violence", bringing up the matter of black-on-black violence. And we hear the Islamophobes saying the same thing about Middle Easterners and Muslims: "Oh they just love killing each other, and they love violence." Indeed, bigots of all colors are united in their methodology.

And before you say "there is a difference between a religion and race", then think about how the Stormfront-type white racists have a similar attitude towards Jews. Yet none of us tolerates bigotry against Jews. If someone were to do that, he would be ostracized. Then why is it fair game against Muslims?

Be cautious of bigotry. It clouds a person's mind.

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.

[NightWolf]

Peace be unto you, NightWolf.

Your opinion is based on anecdotal evidence/experience. I have cold hard statistical facts from Gallup Poll which polled the one billion Muslims in the world. The vast majority were shown to be moderate, peace-loving people. Only a very small percentage were extremists, and interestingly enough, a smaller percentage of Muslims polled agreed to killing civilians as compared to Americans.

Just to give you an example: in Pakistan, which Americans consider the hotbed of terrorism, they conducted a poll and asked Pakistanis: if Al-Qaeda was on the ballot, would you vote for them? Less than one percent said yes. They asked about if the Taliban were on the ballot, and only 3% said yes. (This includes the NWFP, which is the tribal area!) The overwhelming majority condemned the 9/11 attacks, and believe killing civilians is not permissible.

So we can either take your opinion or the opinion of Gallup Poll.

I want to warn you that you are doing a similar thing to what Stormfront-type white racists do. They will argue that the majority of the black men they know are criminals, thugs, and hoodlums...and they will even try to show us proof of that by talking about how many blacks are in jail, or images of black criminals, etc. It's a really similar mentality between the white racists and Islamophobes. The white racists will talk about how blacks "just like to kill each other all the time" and are "prone to violence", bringing up the matter of black-on-black violence. And we hear the Islamophobes saying the same thing about Middle Easterners and Muslims: "Oh they just love killing each other, and they love violence." Indeed, bigots of all colors are united in their methodology.

And before you say "there is a difference between a religion and race", then think about how the Stormfront-type white racists have a similar attitude towards Jews. Yet none of us tolerates bigotry against Jews. If someone were to do that, he would be ostracized. Then why is it fair game against Muslims?

Be cautious of bigotry. It clouds a person's mind.

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.

Dude that Galluop poll means nothing to me,
the site it self seems to be ultra left and liberial minded.
I told you how it is where i live, if you want to belive in
that or not i really dont care.

You talk about "Islamophobes" and white rasicts,
but what do you call your islamic brothers in the video
i posted? Are they Christianphobes? or rasicts?

40% of the muslims in the UK wants sharia laws!
32% of the british muslims says western society
is decadent and immoral and that muslims should
seek to bring it to an end! The soruce is also
in the video, do watch it.

So dont twist my words, i never said ALL muslims,
Are extremeist or radicals, i said its way more
then the 5% that you claim.

[BuffedGuy]

Peace be unto you, NightWolf.

Dude that Galluop poll means nothing to me,
the site it self seems to be ultra left and liberial minded.

The site I linked to is www.Amazon.com. It just sells books. You really think it's an ultra-left and liberal minded site?

If you are talking about Gallup Poll, then it is known as the most reliable polling service in the world. As for your claim that it is ultra-liberal, I highly doubt this. But anyways, do you only take facts from ultra-conservative bigots? No wonder you think the way you do.

You talk about "Islamophobes" and white rasicts,
but what do you call your islamic brothers in the video
i posted? Are they Christianphobes? or rasicts?

There are most definitely bigots within our own Muslim ranks, and I am the first to say this! Most of the extremist fringe are very much infected with bigotry.

40% of the muslims in the UK wants sharia laws!

There are a few ways I can respond to this:

1) I want Shari'ah (Islamic Law). What's your point? Why the exclamation mark?

2) Oftentimes, the best way to refute those afflicted with bigotry is to reverse their arguments against them. This exposes their bigotry, because they then retreat from their position. You say 40% of Muslims want Islamic Law. Gallup Poll says that 46% of Americans want the Bible as law. (Gallup site) As for Jews, 38% of them want a Halakhic state. (Halakha is the Jewish Law; it's a Hebrew term like Shari'ah is an Arabic one.) This is according to the website of the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs: http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Archive/Ar...t+-+06-Aug.htm

So why is it that Muslims are demonized for wanting Islamic Law, when a similar percentage of Jews and Christians want to rule by Halakha and Biblical Law respectively? I'll tell you why: bigotry.

32% of the british muslims says western society
is decadent and immoral and that muslims should
seek to bring it to an end![/B]

Once again, to refute this, I will reverse the tables. When Americans were asked what they like about Muslims, a majority said "NOTHING." Again, this is from Gallup. Can you imagine what percentage would have said that the Muslim world is "barbaric" if that was an option? I bet you that if you put an option "we should nuke Mecca to teach them a lesson", a lot of Americans would vote for that option.

On the other hand, when Gallup Poll asked Muslims what they liked about America, a negligible number selected "nothing", whereas a majority found something good to say about America and even said that the Muslim world can learn something from them.

See how easy it is to demonize the other side? You are the type of person who flocks to the people who hate-monger against Muslims, so why is it you have a grudge against those Muslims who hate-monger against Christians or the West? Bigots--even from the opposite side--are the same in methodology.

So dont twist my words, i never said ALL muslims,
Are extremeist or radicals, i said its way more
then the 5% that you claim.

Again, I'm basing what I say off of the Gallup Poll, which is the most comprehensive to date. It stated that 93% of Muslims are moderates. 7% are politically radicalized, and only a small percentage of those 7% supported terrorism. I already showed you that in Pakistan, only 1% would vote for Al-Qaeda and 3% for Taliban.

Forgive my harsh language, but I really have not lost hope for you. I think that if you can just pull that wool off of your eyes--that bigotry which clouds your corneas--you will be able to have a lighter heart. I am not denying that there are bigots in the ranks of the Muslims; I debate with them all the time! My point is that you two groups have a lot in common!

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.

[BuffedGuy]

I strongly urge people to buy this book here, written by Gallup Poll:

Who Speaks for Islam? What a Billion Muslims Really Think, by John Esposito

Beyond the hype. Hear it from the source.

[BuffedGuy]

Whoops, double post!

[gst528i]

So your saying no non-muslim has been convicted using those laws? Cause i can prove other wise

[BuffedGuy]

So your saying no non-muslim has been convicted using those laws? Cause i can prove other wise

No, I did not say that. Rather, I said that according to Islamic Law, this is incorrect, even though some of the illiterate groups (like the Taliban) do that. They do not have the proper Islamic training, so they think they are doing something according to scripture, when in fact they are not.

[gst528i]

No, I did not say that. Rather, I said that according to Islamic Law, this is incorrect, even though some of the illiterate groups (like the Taliban) do that. They do not have the proper Islamic training, so they think they are doing something according to scripture, when in fact they are not.

so you can imagine the uneasiness of the west being asked to look in to these laws.
If the muslims can't get it right, how is a country that is not islamic based get it right.
We can;t even get our regular laws to work the way they are suppose to lol...

And i just have to ask. What does islam say to adapting to time? By this i mean, islamic laws adapting as time changes and we go forward, in a sense as humans evolve do these laws become "for the lack of better word less barbaric".
I am not saying islam has the only barbaric laws, since the bible has them too, but don't you think christianity which is dominant in the west has evolved to not take exact punishments in the bible, but adapt them as we evolve.
Where as the muslim world is stuck rigid and unwilling to change or adapt to punishments and other things proposed in the holy book.

[BuffedGuy]

so you can imagine the uneasiness of the west being asked to look in to these laws.
If the muslims can't get it right, how is a country that is not islamic based get it right.
We can;t even get our regular laws to work the way they are suppose to lol...

Like I said, I think it is not feasible, and I agree with you that it is not a realistic request, nor is it something that Muslims should worry themselves about. Most of them who call for it are just talking about family laws, such as laws pertaining to divorce, inheritance, etc., and not criminal offenses.

I will reply to the rest of your post shortly, God-Willing.

[BuffedGuy]

Peace be unto you, Amcon.

You posted in regard to the Curse of Ham; I'm cross-posting here.

o ya - it actually was a curse handed down to one of noah's son...

Muslims do not believe in the Curse of Ham. As the story goes, Noah was drunk and naked in his tent, when his son Ham stepped in and saw him. Because of this, Noah passed a curse on his descendants.

Muslims reject this story. Remember: although we believe in the Bible as revealed to the Prophets, we also say that over the course of time there has been a lot that has been added to and committed from the Bible. As such, Muslims are instructed not to read the Bible, except to use it as a proof with the People of the Book. We believe that it is impossible to know for sure which elements of the Bible have remained intact and which are later day corruptions.

That is why we believe that God revealed the Quran (the Final Testament) to Prophet Muhammad [s], which clears up any doubts and confusion. In other words, it sets the record straight. In regards to the prophets, we believe that the People of the Book have exaggerated with some of the prophets (i.e. Jesus) whereas they have denigrated others (such as Noah).

We believe that God commissioned the best of the humans to be his prophets and messengers. Prophet Noah [as] is mentioned in the Quran, but there is no mention of the story of him being drunk. Rather, the prophets of God are considered free of Major Sins. We believe that if normal Muslims--like myself--steer clear of the Major Sins, then how could Prophet Noah [as] approach them? Yes, the prophets can commit mistakes and minor sins, and this is a reflection of them being human; only God is perfect. However, the prophets did not persist in sin; rather, even when they committed minor sins, they hastened to seek forgiveness from their Lord Most High.

In other words, we do not believe it is possible that Prophet Noah [as] got drunk in his tent, and we believe it degrades him to say that his son saw him naked in such a state. We also believe it does not befit the mercy and justice of one of God's prophets to curse a man's progeny, for what fault did the progeny have in the affair? No soul bears the burden of another. This is one of the reasons that Muslims also reject the idea that childbirth was a punishment on all women for the sin of Eve. How could one soul bear the burden of another? We similarly reject the idea that humanity was cast out of Paradise due to the actions of Adam or Eve. (We also reject the idea that it was Eve's fault and not Adam's.) In fact, we reject the entire concept of Original Sin, since it is not part of God's Justice to mete out punishment to other than the offender. (This is also one of the reasons why terrorism is wrong--since terrorists go after other than the offenders.) Sin is not inherited; it is earned by one's own willful actions.

Historically, the Curse of Ham has been used to justify racism; the early Jews used to justify their enslavement of the Canaanites. And Christians throughout history--up until this century--have used it as a proof to justify enslavement of blacks.

To turn around and use this against Arabs is another evidence that Islamophobia is the new bigotry of our times. If it is racist to use against blacks, it is equally racist to use against Arabs. Rather, let us stay away from racism altogether. All humans are created equal and only differ based on their righteousness and good character, as mentioned in the Quran.

The Christian Church itself has taken a strong against the Curse of the Ham (not 100% sure about this, but that is what I remember reading). Therefore, I do not think what I am saying goes against what Christians believe on the matter (but I will have to double-check). Neither Islam nor modern day Christianity believe that the Curse of Ham applies to any race or group of peoples, since that would not be proper.

Hope this clears up the matter.

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.

[BuffedGuy]

Peace be unto you, GST.

In the Name of God, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful.

And i just have to ask. What does islam say to adapting to time? By this i mean, islamic laws adapting as time changes and we go forward, in a sense as humans evolve do these laws become "for the lack of better word less barbaric".
I am not saying islam has the only barbaric laws, since the bible has them too, but don't you think christianity which is dominant in the west has evolved to not take exact punishments in the bible, but adapt them as we evolve.
Where as the muslim world is stuck rigid and unwilling to change or adapt to punishments and other things proposed in the holy book.

I believe that there is a difference between a religion adapting for the times and outright revisionism. Yes, I believe that Islam and Islamic Law intrinsically have the capability of being applied to numerous different times, places, cultures, etc. There is a level of dynamic versatility that is inherently present in Islam. For example, Islamic Law tries to accommodate different cultures, instead of imposing one culture upon all. As such, I think this is something that is inbuilt with Islam.

However, what we Muslims are wary of is blatant revisionism. We believe that Christians have indeed been guilty of this; conversely, they may think we are stuck in the past. Nonetheless, we Muslims do not think it makes sense to neutralize the Word of God by creating complicated "explanations". In fact, one of the Quran's main criticisms against the Christians (i.e. the People of the Book) is that they change the book of God to conform to their whims and desires. God says in the Quran:

"And those who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant from them, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them...And soon will God inform them of their handiwork. O People of the Book! Now has come to your Our messenger, revealing to you much of what you used to hide in the Book and passing over much. There has come to you from God a Light and Clear Book from God, wherewith God guides all who seek His Good Pleasure to ways of peace and safety, and leads them out of darknesses, by His Will, unto the Light--guides them to a path that is straight." (Quran, 5:14-16)

God warns:

"Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say: 'This is from God,' to traffic with it for a miserable price! Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby." (Quran, 2:79)

The Quran even says that the Jews and Christians worshiped their rabbis and priests:

"They have taken as lords beside God their rabbis and their monks." (Quran, 9:31)

When a Christian said "but we don't worship our rabbis and priests", then Prophet Muhammad [s] answered by saying that the rabbis and priests would turn what God had forbidden in the Book and make it permissible, and also make what was permissible into what is forbidden.

Not only do orthodox Muslims criticize Jews and Christians for this, but we also criticize certain heretical sects of Islam for doing this. We call them the People of Evil Innovation (Ahl al-Bidah). The methodology of the People of Evil Innovation is to first come up with their beliefs from their own desires, and then they will after that read the Quran in order to "generate proofs" to back up their preconceived notions. On the other hand, the methodology of the People of the Prophetic Way is to FIRST read the Quran, and THEN make up their beliefs based on that reading. Instead of superimposing our beliefs on God's Word, we impose God's Words on us.

In fact, there was more than once that God revealed a verse in the Quran that differed from what Prophet Muhammad [s] wanted. When God revealed one such verse, Prophet Muhammad [s] said:

"I wanted one thing but God wanted another, and what God wanted is (always) best." (At-Tafsir al-Kabir)

Actually one of the distinguishing features of the Muslim is the fact that a Muslim submits himself in full to God. In fact, the Arabic word "Muslim" translates to "submitter." We are merely slaves to God, and we obey His Will, without question or argumentation. The Quran describes the Muslim as one who says:

"We hear, and we obey." (Quran, 2:285)

And the Quran says:

"The believers' reply, when they are summoned to God and His Messenger so that he can judge between them, is to say, 'We hear and we obey!' They are ones who are successful. (Quran, 24:51)

And God says further:

"When God and His Messenger have decided something, no believing man or woman has a choice about following it or not. Anyone who disobeys God and His Messenger is clearly misguided." (Quran, 33:36)

We believe that judging by God's Laws is mandatory:

"If any do fail to judge by what God has revealed, they are transgressors." (Quran, 5:47)

The Quran describes itself in numerous places as Al-Furqan, which means "The Criterion (between right and wrong)", or "that which distinguishes between right and wrong." So as a Muslim, our Criterion is the Quran, not our own whims and desires. God says:

"Then do you see such a person as takes as his god his own vain desires?(Quran, 45:23)

God says of the Quran:

"Thus We have revealed it to be a Judgment of authority...Were you to follow their desires after the Knowledge which has reached you, you would find neither protector nor defender against God." (Quran, 13:37)

"Have you seen him who takes his desires for his god?" (Quran, 25:43)

"If the Truth had been in accordance to their desires, truly the heavens and the earth, and all beings therein would have been in confusion and corruption! No, We have sent them their scriptures, but they turn away from their admonition." (Quran, 23:71)

We Muslims believe it is Major Disbelief in God to call the punishments prescribed by God to be barbaric. Whoever seeks to replace them with his own punishments has put himself over God, and thus committed polytheism. How can a person believe that God's Punishment is barbaric? Such a person cannot truly believe in God. He might say it from his tongue that he does, but his heart is full of doubt, and that's why he has to "clean up" God's Words.

You are correct in saying that Jews and Christians have "modernized" their religion, but I think that "modernizing" is just a euphemism for "revisionism." I believe that they have invented their own religion. Having said that, there are Orthodox Jews and maybe a few branches of Christianity who refuse to use revisionism, and this must be mentioned. I respect them a lot, in the sense that at least they stick to their guns. They believe in their beliefs; their beliefs are more than hobbies or past-times.

However, one thing that is unique about Islam is that although Judaism and Christianity have entire sects/branches that have adopted revisionism as a modus operandi, i.e. Reform Judaism (and even Conservative Judaism) and many strains of Christianity, you will not find a similar branch of Islam. This may be in fact what vexes many of you, i.e. our refusal to create a revisionist sect that "modernizes" the religion. In fact, some people have tried their best to create such sects, but all Praise is due to God, they have never met with success. The orthodox Muslims have always been able to intellectually "contain" them, and "own their...butts" in debates. The Muslim masses never accepted them, and they are doomed to utter obscurity.

I think that if you are going to follow a religion, follow it wholesale. It doesn't make sense to follow half of it and reject half of it. In fact, God says:

"Do you, then, believe in one part of the Book and reject the other!?" (Quran, 2:85)

God warns against those who take certain "open to interpretation" verses to supersede and nullify the clear and decisive verses:

"He it is Who sent down to you the Book: In it are verses that are decisive and fundamental; they are the foundation of the Book. Other verses are open to interpretation. But those in whose hearts is deviation follow the part thereof that is open to interpretation, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it their own interpretation. But no one knows its interpretation except God. And those who are firmly grounded in Knowledge, say 'We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord', and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding." (Quran, 3:7)

As for the punishments legislated in the Quran, I do not think they are barbaric. I believe that they are a mercy on the people. By having such harsh punishments, they serve as strong deterrents, which keep people away from sinning, which benefits none other than their own souls. It is like a parent who threatens his kid with a severe punishment if he does drugs. The punishment is actually a mercy for the child, but the child cannot grasp that yet.

Furthermore, there are a lot of misconceptions about Islamic Punishments (Hadood) to begin with. For example, I clarified about the fornication/adultery punishment, and there are similar clarifications that must be made about other Islamic punishments.

Also, I find the Western punishment of prison to be troubling. A man goes to jail, and if he's not criminal already, he'll *turn* criminal in jail, just to survive. Throwing a criminal with a bunch of other criminals is not the best way to rehabilitate a person. Whilst in jail, he will probably commit even more sins, again just to survive. He might get raped, or he might sodomize someone else. He will be persuaded to do drugs and other things. So in the end, throwing him in jail is just hurting his soul and position in the hereafter. You throw him in jail for one sin, and he commits one hundred more whilst in jail! And he comes out with a PhD in crime.

Instead, a swift punishment will maximize the person's chance of rehabilitation. He will want to change himself immediately; meanwhile, if he was thrown in jail, that motivation to change will wane or even die out over time.

Furthermore, we believe that punishment in this worldly life benefits a person's state in the next life. As such, it is a mercy, since it alleviates the person from eternal punishment, which is worse.

Lastly, even if I did believe that such-and-such punishment was barbaric, I would say:

"I wanted one thing but God wanted another, and what God wanted is (always) best." (At-Tafsir al-Kabir)

In other words, even if Satan whispered to me that such-and-such is barbaric about Islam, I would tell myself that I am wrong and that it is just the whispering of Satan. Then I would submit myself to God and His Will, without question. I hear and I obey. If you watched the two videos I linked to (the one with the Australian "bloke"), you will see that the Islamic attitude is: how can I have an opinion on a matter when the Lord of the Universe has spoken?

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.

[BuffedGuy]

Anyone seen Oz or the first season of Sleeper Cell? Both are HBO tv shows about Muslims. Well, Oz is about a jail, but it does a pretty good job of covering Muslims. As for Sleeper Cell, it's about Muslims. I think that it is worth watching these two shows, since they do a decent job of giving a realistic picture of Muslims.

Sleeper Cell was pretty much spot-on, and shows how radical Muslims think, and also does give some portrayal of moderate Muslims (such as the main actor). The first season does a really good job, although I wasn't a fan of the way they did season two.

As for Oz, at the very beginning, they show Kareem Saeed as a bit too holier than thou, but he chills out later on and I think they did a good job of depicting what we call "Prislam", i.e. Islam in prison. (Although their Arabic pronunciation is hilarious, and the way they pray is totally off...but nonetheless, the rest is pretty accurate, by and large.)

I'm surprised that HBO does these kind of shows, because the "mainstream" tv channels in America never ever try to depict Muslims as protagonists; they only talk about Muslims in the third person. But yeah, I'm seriously impressed with HBO.

GST, I am going to answer your second question (the one about whether or not Muslims can modernize their religion) tomorrow, God-Willing.

[quarry206]

I have noticed alot of the debating is over whos "laws" each group want to fallow..

no matter what group you poll you will always get a high number of people saying they want to live by their religions laws.christians would say bible needs to be law. muslims would say the quran shoulw be law.

But how many people would truely be able to live by those standards.. probably a low percentage, but i do believe it would be on both sides.. Humans as a general statement are weak minded. and if you as a person don't take responsiblity to learn and educate yourself then you will fall inline with whatever extreme we are with. either christian or muslim.

As christians, you can not forget the dark dark days the christian faith has had in its past. the wars, murders, lying, steal and cheating it has had. It is easy to point the finger at muslims because to the rest of the world it might seem "weird". but burning a woman alive because a woman could swim and the church says that makes her a witch? come on though it wasn't recent, Christians have had their dark days.during the middle ages Martin Luther lead a charge to kill jews. killing 150,000 of them, which percentage wise is about equal to hitler.. and he made everybody believe it was "for god" ..

and i do realize there are holes in my logic that you can rip apart.. but look at the big picture. though muslim extremist are making muslims look horrible.. that doesn't mean all muslims are suicide bombers. that is dumb and far from the truth.

i defend buffedguy on this thread because i feel he is trying to educate people on believes and concepts.. you can't rightfully ask him to defend groups of people his is not. he can only spread knowledge from what he knows, and try to tell you the mind set other people might or might not be in.. Buffedguy is only one man, he is very out spoken about alot of things.

I only ask that we keep an open mind and heart on this forum, because tho i am not muslim i think that he has taught everybody alot on here.. so to rip back and forth on small things is a waste of time.

[FallenWyvern]

I only ask that we keep an open mind and heart on this forum, because tho i am not muslim i think that he has taught everybody alot on here.. so to rip back and forth on small things is a waste of time.

I agree, but it isn't a waste of time.

[BuffedGuy]

I have noticed alot of the debating is over whos "laws" each group want to fallow..

no matter what group you poll you will always get a high number of people saying they want to live by their religions laws.christians would say bible needs to be law. muslims would say the quran shoulw be law.

But how many people would truely be able to live by those standards.. probably a low percentage, but i do believe it would be on both sides.. Humans as a general statement are weak minded. and if you as a person don't take responsiblity to learn and educate yourself then you will fall inline with whatever extreme we are with. either christian or muslim.

As christians, you can not forget the dark dark days the christian faith has had in its past. the wars, murders, lying, steal and cheating it has had. It is easy to point the finger at muslims because to the rest of the world it might seem "weird". but burning a woman alive because a woman could swim and the church says that makes her a witch? come on though it wasn't recent, Christians have had their dark days.during the middle ages Martin Luther lead a charge to kill jews. killing 150,000 of them, which percentage wise is about equal to hitler.. and he made everybody believe it was "for god" ..

and i do realize there are holes in my logic that you can rip apart.. but look at the big picture. though muslim extremist are making muslims look horrible.. that doesn't mean all muslims are suicide bombers. that is dumb and far from the truth.

i defend buffedguy on this thread because i feel he is trying to educate people on believes and concepts.. you can't rightfully ask him to defend groups of people his is not. he can only spread knowledge from what he knows, and try to tell you the mind set other people might or might not be in.. Buffedguy is only one man, he is very out spoken about alot of things.

I only ask that we keep an open mind and heart on this forum, because tho i am not muslim i think that he has taught everybody alot on here.. so to rip back and forth on small things is a waste of time.

Thank you for your kind words. Much appreciated.

[D7M]

Hey Buff,

Ok, I see your point. That's fine. I agree, it shouldn't be used to justify racism against Arabs (or any race).

Yes, the contemporary church rejects this, you're right.

As far as that website, I'm a bit hesitant. The internet is a great tool for sharing information, but the problem is that there is so much crap out there too (which, incidentally, is why I never let my students use websites as sources).

But that website was more about Christianity and slavery in general. It's a really interesting subject. I won't hijack this thread, but if you're interested the best treatment I've seen is John Noonan's book, "A Church that can and cannot change"

And Buff, you know it's highly unlikely I'm going to be offended

[BuffedGuy]

Australian bloke converts to Islam, part 1

Australian bloke converts to Islam, part 2

[gst528i]

Okay we all know the holy books of hindu, christian, muslim were written by "PROPHETS", " PEOPLE OF GOD", "GURUS" what ever term you use.
My point is, these books were written by humans and has been with us for ages. We all have come to the conclution that there are some parts in christian bible, hindu holy book, that has been added or removed because it wasn't the word of god.
How can muslims say with irrefutable proof that the quran was all the word of god.
Also i have always wondered, how did the prophet mohammed claim he had word from god?
Any magical powers? any gifts?
This is why i don't believe in any religions

[BuffedGuy]

Peace be unto you, GST.

Please make sure to read my last post before reading this one. In the last post, I talked about how the Quran was revealed to Prophet Muhammad [s]. Without reading that post I do not think you can fully appreciate this one.

How can muslims say with irrefutable proof that the quran was all the word of god.

Asking for irrefutable proof that the Quran is the Word of God is similar to someone asking for irrefutable proof that God exists. After all, if the Quran can be proven scientifically to be the Word of God, then this would mean that we could prove that God exists. I think you need to change your parameters: instead of wanting proof "beyond a reasonable doubt" like in some criminal trial, you should rather opt for "more likely than not" which is the rule of thumb in medical malpractice cases. (Forgive the poor analogy.)

I've already explained a couple posts back about how although we can't scientifically prove God (since the very concept of faith is the belief in the unseen), we can show you the Signs of God which should be enough for the one imbued with knowledge. In fact, we consider the Quran to also be one of the Signs of God, which is why each verse is actually called ayah, which literally translates to "sign". Many people who convert to Islam do so because they read the Quran, and know it can only be from God. You cannot put the Quran in a test tube or give it a litmus test to prove it is written from God; it is just something you know when you read it. Some know it, others deny it. Those who know it become Muslims.

God says:

"And thus have We have sent down the Book to you...there are those who believe in it, and none deny Our revelations save the disbelievers. And you (O Muhammad) never recited before this any other book, nor did you write it with your right hand, for then could those who follow falsehood cast doubt. Nay, these are verses self-evident in the hearts of those imbued with knowledge, and none reject Our revelations save the wrongdoers. And they say: 'Why are not miracles sent down to him from his Lord?' Say: 'The miracles are only with God, and I am but a plain Warner.' And is it not enough for them that We have sent down to you the Book which is rehearsed to them? Verily, in it is Mercy and a Reminder to those who believe." (Quran, 29:47-51)

"Will they not then ponder on the Quran? If it had been from other than God they would have found therein much contradiction." (Quran, 4:82)

"If you are in doubt concerning that which We have sent down onto Our servant, then produce a chapter of the like thereof, and call forth your witnesses or supporters besides God, if you are truthful! But if you cannot--and of a surety you cannot--then fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones, which is prepared for those who reject faith. But give glad tidings to those who believe and work righteousness, that their portion is Gardens, beneath which rivers flow." (Quran, 2:23-25)

So basically, the Quran vouches for its authenticity by saying that when you read it, its accuracy will become self-evident to a person who fits two conditions: (1) the one who not only has wisdom, but also (2) the one who ponders over it. And this is why so many people convert to Islam after reading the Quran. Having said that, others will not be moved to convert nor be convinced that it is from God, and that's ok, because as God says in the Quran:

"Surely We have revealed to you the Book with the truth for the sake of men; so whoever follows the right way, it is for his own soul and whoever errs, he errs only to his own detriment; and you are not a dictator or custodian over them." (Quran, 39:41)

If you wish to read the Quran for yourself (well, the English translation of it), I strongly advise reading Thomas Cleary's translation, which you can buy brand-new for some $10:

http://www.amazon.com/Essential-Kora...d_bxgy_b_img_c

Or if you want to buy a used one in good condition, you can get it for under $4:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listi...condition=used

I still need to reply to the remainder of your post...give me a bit of time, God-Willing.

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.

[BuffedGuy]

Peace be unto you, GST.

I want to more fully address this part of your post:

Okay we all know the holy books of hindu, christian, muslim were written by "PROPHETS", " PEOPLE OF GOD", "GURUS" what ever term you use.
My point is, these books were written by humans and has been with us for ages. We all have come to the conclution that there are some parts in christian bible, hindu holy book, that has been added or removed because it wasn't the word of god.
How can muslims say with irrefutable proof that the quran was all the word of god.

Muslims take great pride in the preservation of the Quran. We believe that a religion should be judged by its holy book. One of our theological criticisms of people of other religions is that when asked a question about their religion, they oftentimes answer from their own minds, whereas Muslims answer from our religious holy book. We also believe that unlike other religions, we do not make the Quran say what we want it to say, but rather open the Quran with an empty brain and then come out with it full, instead of first coming up with doctrines and then seeking to validate them in the religious book.

One of the Quran's criticism against the People of the Book (the Jews and Christians) is that their religious scriptures have become corrupted: scribal errors and outright manipulations. According to the Quran, they did not take care to preserve their books as sent to them by God, but instead wrote them with their own hands.

Because Islam was critical of the People of the Book for their lack of carefulness with regards to preserving their holy books, it is no surprise then that Prophet Muhammad [s] and his disciples took great care to preserve the Quran, so that they would not fall into the same error that they were critical of the People of the Book for.

One of the main mechanisms that Muslims have used to protect the Quran is by producing huffaaz. Huffaaz literally translates to safe-keepers, guarders or guardians...in other words, they guard the Quran from corruption. These are men who have memorized the Quran word for word, cover to cover. In the time of the Prophet Muhammad [s], there were over 10,000 of his disciples who memorized the book cover to cover. Keep in mind that that there were over a hundred thousand in the time of the Prophet [s] who had memorized *parts* of the Quran, but there were OVER TEN THOUSAND who had memorized it in its ENTIRETY, front back and center.

They would then recite it to each other, the entire Quran over the course of Ramadan. So one Quran memorizer (haafiz) would lead the prayer and recite aloud the entire Quran, and behind him, if he ever made a mistake, then there are multiple Quran reciters standing in the front row who will correct him. In this way, it is impossible to make a mistake since it is not possible for *all* the multiple hufaaz to make the *same* mistake. In addition to this, before the prayer and after, they will recite the Quran themselves, always practicing, and some of them would read the entire Quran every three days, whilst worst case they would do it in one month time. So twelve times per year per person. And then on top of that, in each prayer, they'd read parts of the Quran in a sequential order so that they would read the whole thing.

The Prophet Muhammad [s] said:

"Whoever reads the Qur’an and memorizes it, while he regards what it makes lawful as lawful and its unlawful as forbidden, God will admit him into Paradise." (Sunan at-Tirmidhi)

Not only this, but it is considered a sin to forget a part of the Quran after one has learned it, so Muslims are extra cautious to keep the memorization fresh and correct.

So with the same zeal that you see many Muslims willing to risk their lives to die for Islam, similarly there are Muslims the world over today that have the entire Quran memorized cover to cover. It is estimated that today there are over nine million Muslims who have memorized the Quran cover to cover; I am talking about nine MILLION Muslims who are living right now. That's just today! Imagine how many throughout history over the past 1400 years. The number must be astronomical. If you destroyed every single Quran on the earth, we would be able to reproduce it letter for letter, dot for dot, without error.

Think of it this way: when a video gets on youtube, it goes "viral" and then nobody can suppress the news. Even if they removed the video for fear of bad publicity, by the time it went viral, there is nothing they can do now. People would have saved it on their computers, spread the news, etc.

Similarly, the memorization of the Quran went "viral". In the time of Prophet Muhammad [s], there were thousands who had memorized the entire Quran, and then each generation it increased and multiplied triple-fold until the number became truly astronomical. Today, the Quran is the MOST MEMORIZED book in the world and history. No other book has been memorized like this.

The Prophet's command--inspired by God--to have thousands of people memorize the Quran and for them to have their kids memorize it all--was a way to mass transmit the Quran in a way that it became impossible for anyone to add any single word into the Quran. Instead of making the scribes the sole caretakers, the Prophet [s] made the entire Muslim community its caretakers, under God.

I've read a couple books on the textual criticism of the Bible, and what I learned was that scribes were able to add and omit words from the Bible since they were the only ones who had access to the manuscripts. If they accidentally made a wrong brush stroke one place, then that mistake would be repeated by the person who copied that manuscript, and he wouldn't know because he hadn't memorized the Bible himself. Few people were literate back then, and the manuscripts in the hands of an elite few.

Meanwhile, the Quran--from the very beginning--was the exact opposite. It was mass memorized by the people. When Muslims moved to a new country, they'd send a fleet of huffaaz (Quran memorizers) to teach the people there the Quran by heart. You not only have to memorize it, but you are then tested on it multiple times, and get certified as a Quran memorizer. You actually get a diploma/certificate. This is after your memorization has been rigorously tested, where you recite the Quran to multiple other Quran memorizers who catch you for errors. Any time a Quran is printed, a huge fleet of Quran memorizers will check it backwards and forward, and if a copy has a single error in it--ONE SINGLE ERROR--it is immediately burned.

There is a very famous story of a calligrapher who use to have the absolute best and most beautiful calligraphy. He was interested in learning about different religions, so he went to a group of Jews, a group of Christians, and a group of Muslims. He asked them each for their religious book. He went back home and then copied each in his beautiful and breathtaking calligraphy. But he changed seven or eight words of each book on purpose, before he went back to each group and showed them the copy he made. Both the Jews and Christians were amazed by his beautiful calligraphy and penmanship, giving him high accolades and respect, saying that it was the best they have seen. But when he gave the book to the Muslims, he came to know that they burned it and told the guy off. He asked why and they told them that it had errors in it. The man converted to Islam, saying that *this* is a book guarded.

This difference can be seen today by the fact that the King James Version of the Bible has more than twenty verses in it than the Revised Standard Version of the Bible does. The RSV Bible actually removed those verses out, for reasons including that many of the verses were later day fabrications not in earlier manuscripts. What I mean to say is that Christian scholars debate amongst themselves, saying that some verses are fabrications.

Yet not a single verse in any published Quran in the world is fabricated. You will never find a footnote in the Quran that says "this verse is questionable authenticity" or "this verse is a fabrication", etc. Never! In fact, anyone who believes such a thing about the Quran is considered by us to be a disbeliever.

Now don't get me wrong: I understand the Christian side to this. They will argue that even though there are errors--additions, omissions, forgeries, etc.--these amount to a very small percentage of the book overall and do not change the meaning of the Bible. Although I don't agree with that, I do understand their position and I do not think it is absurd. What I am saying here is not to bash Christianity but rather to highlight the excellence and purity of the Quran. You see, the entire basis of our religion is that the People of the Book corrupted their book and religion, and here is the Final Testament, purified and free from corruption.

Lastly, we believe that God Himself has promised to preserve the Quran from corruption. This is because the Quran is the Final Testament, sent to all of the worlds for the rest of time until the Day of Judgment. Hence, God has blessed the Quran by promising to protect it Himself. God says:

"We have, without any doubt, sent down the Message; and verily We will guard it from corruption." (Quran, 15:9)

"Its collection and recitation are Our affair." (Quran, 75:17)

"To you have We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what God has revealed, and follow not vain desires, diverging from the Truth that has come to you." (Quran, 5:48)

The Quran is unique in that we know who exactly it was revealed to. On the other hand, with other religious books--such as the Bible--we don't know who some of the authors were. Some of the authors are anonymous or even unknown and others use pseudonyms. Some authors even use the names of disciples even though they themselves are not that person. This is true for both the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament. As for the Hindu Vedas, they don't know who wrote them. So I think your argument would apply, in that how could we possibly follow a book whose author we don't even know.

In these ways the Quran is unique. I am not saying that the other religious books of other religions are garbage. No, I am simply saying that the Quran has some unique honors and distinctions that they do not share. We know who it was revealed to, we know how it was preserved, it was and still is *mass* memorized, etc. Like I said, people of other religions would argue that it is not important for a religious book to be 100% accurate; minor omissions, additions, etc.--they say--will not make a major difference in what we, the readers, get from them. I understand this argument, and it is not without some truth to it. But I like putting my faith in a book that can say about itself:

"This is a Book, wherein there is no doubt." (Quran, 2:2)

Hope that helps.

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.

[BuffedGuy]

GST, you always ask juicy questions; I will have to answer your last post tomorrow, God-Willing. It took me ages writing the above post, haha.

[gst528i]

GST, you always ask juicy questions; I will have to answer your last post tomorrow, God-Willing. It took me ages writing the above post, haha.

Haha , yea sorry about making you type. I am not trying to insult your religion or anything. Just trying to understand...
Thanks last answer. I understand your point about deterrence by using these punishments. I find them barbaric, but they seem to be doing a hell of a job in abu dhabi (sp), baharain (sp), and dubai. I have seen how safe it is for tourist to walk with cash in hands at midnight....

[amcon]

buffedguy - i am impressed with your attitude in the other threads(i mean that and no sarcasim) ...

[BuffedGuy]

buffedguy - i am impressed with your attitude in the other threads(i mean that and no sarcasim) ...

Thanks. That means a lot. I was too harsh on you and Prone2Rage in certain threads. I apologize for that. May God unite our hearts on the truth.

[amcon]

Thanks. That means a lot. I was too harsh on you and Prone2Rage in certain threads. I apologize for that. May God unite our hearts on the truth.

no no no - it is your passion you are instructed by God to educate, and your beliefs dictate you actions. educate every one you can (ditto for me as well).



and as i said before i dont know you however we are brothers/cousins in God almighty - i love your passion and you energy - we will meet one day in our holy bodies.

amen!

[BuffedGuy]

I had this conversation with an extremist, as follows:

Hamas has turned soft. They have the defeatist attitude that they will live side by side with Israel in peace, if Israel agrees to the 1967 borders. How can they do that when ALL of the land in palestine is usurped from the muslims? We should drive them all out, without leaving any land left to them, and whoever says otherwise is a defeatist.

My response:

Yes, Israel started out as a colonial entity and all of the land it exists upon is usurped from the native Palestinian population. This is why the Palestinians do not wish to ever formally recognize Israel, because they do not want to say that the take-over of Palestinian land was legitimate to begin with.

Nonetheless, living in peace side-by-side Israel is not defeatist. Yes, the Quran says to fight off those who drive us out of our homes, but if they incline towards peace, then we must also incline towards peace. God says in the Quran: "If the enemy inclines towards peace, then you also incline towards peace! And trust in God!" (Quran, 8:61)

We are a people who love peace over war. If that requires giving concessions, then that is OK. Did not Prophet Muhammad [s] make great concessions to the pagans at the Treaty of Hudaiybiyyah? Some of the concessions he [s] made hurt the Muslims greatly, yet he [s] made them. Muslims gave up some of their rights to reach that peace agreement. Why!? Because peace is better than war, a fact that the Prophet Muhammad [s] understood.

You mention Salahuddeen Ayyoubi (Saladin). Perfect example: yes, Saladin liberated Jerusalem from the Crusader occupation, yet he allowed the Crusaders to hold onto some land in Palestine! Even though he was at that time so powerful that he could have simply driven them out--each and every last one of them--but he didn't. Instead, he made peace with them and promised their safety. Go check a history book and see who let the Crusaders stay in Tyre? Who transported Crusaders to safety in Tyre? Was it not our beloved Saladin who did that!? Keep in mind that this strip of land that he allowed Crusaders to remain on was most definitely usurped Muslim land, yet Saladin made the concession anyways! Why? Because peace is better than war.

Will you now dare to call Saladin to be a defeatist? You guys talk about Saladin as if you revere him, but if he were alive today, your kind would be the first to call him a defeatist. Your kind delights in the killing of the "filthy kufaar", yet Saladin was found many times crying whenever Non-Muslim women came to him complaining that their husbands or sons had died in the battle.

As for Hamas, I am glad that there is now a wedge between them and Al-Qaeda. "Al-Zawahri [Al-Qaeda's number two] rebuked Hamas." (MSNBC) And: "Hamas has distanced itself from al-Qaida, saying its struggle is against Israel, not the West at large." (MSNBC)

Hamas is heading in the right direction by distancing itself from Al-Qaeda, and hopefully we can see them becoming more moderate and mainstreamed as time progresses. Regardless of what any group wants, the Palestinian people themselves want peace, so if Hamas does not tow that line, it will lose the support of the people. Palestinians in general are less interested in some epic struggle to reclaim ancestral land: they just want to live in peace and safety, as human beings.

May God save us from extremism.

[*RAGE*]

deleted........

[Hoggage_54]

I have a crush on a Muslim girl. How do I approach her?

[gst528i]

I have a crush on a Muslim girl. How do I approach her?

Easy approach as any other girl.... i did ... worked for me .... course beware if she really like you and u get into a relation there is a chance this will cause problems in the future ( you not being muslim).

other wise .. its all good.

[amcon]

Easy approach as any other girl.... i did ... worked for me .... course beware if she really like you and u get into a relation there is a chance this will cause problems in the future ( you not being muslim).

other wise .. its all good.

and try not to do it with 7-11 hotdog in your hand... good luck

[animalpk]

@BG

you are doing a great work brother, JAZAKALLAH.

I thank you for this good work,, keep it up.