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  1. #1
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swifto View Post
    Thats ok. Just kickstart your testes IMHO.

    Control estrogen too. You dont want too much ER activity at the HP as it will further reduce endo. LH, FSH.

    I'd do:

    wk 1-3 HCG 500ius/ED or EOD
    wk 1-4 Aromasin 10mg/EOD
    wk 1-3-9 Tamox 20mg/ED, then ramp for 7 days to 40mg/ED, then 20mg/ED for 5-6 weeks
    wk 3-9 Clomid 25mg/ED
    Well I am already at week 4:

    wk 1/3-4 clomid 100 mg ed - 50 mg ed
    wk 1-4 tamox 40/20/30/30

    So I plan to run two more weeks as follows:

    wk 5-6 tamoxifen 20/20 ed
    wk 5-6 hcg 500 iu eod
    wk 5-6 exemestane 12.5 mg eod (I have 25 mg tabs so I cannot make 10 mg)

    Today I took another BW and if needed I will go over the 6 weeks.

    Thank you for your response.

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    swift, hypothetically speaking... if i was running test enanthate and during the 2 week waiting period to start PCT, would running hCG be beneficial during those 2 weeks up until pct.

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    Swift... there is some great info in your posts on this subject.. so thanks.

    You did say something I wanted to ask about... you mentioned that 250 twice a week of HCG should be good unless you are older...

    At 48 and doing 200 of test cyp... should I look to increasing to three times a week?

    If so is it another does of 250 or are you taking the weekly total of 500 and dividing that up into three doses.

    Thanks again for your vaulable expertise on this subject.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stevey_6t9 View Post
    swift, hypothetically speaking... if i was running test enanthate and during the 2 week waiting period to start PCT, would running hCG be beneficial during those 2 weeks up until pct.
    Thats a good question.

    If one doesnt recover very well post cycle, I'll have them ramp their HCG dose slightly during this time, then conduct a full (5-6 week) PCT with SERM(s).

    Quote Originally Posted by bowers32 View Post
    Swift... there is some great info in your posts on this subject.. so thanks.

    You did say something I wanted to ask about... you mentioned that 250 twice a week of HCG should be good unless you are older...

    At 48 and doing 200 of test cyp... should I look to increasing to three times a week?

    If so is it another does of 250 or are you taking the weekly total of 500 and dividing that up into three doses.

    Thanks again for your vaulable expertise on this subject.
    Yes, more may be needed.

    I'm only young and seem to bounce back very quickly post cycle and use 250ius 2x week.

    For somone older, I'd go with 250ius 3x week. See how that goes.

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    How should split 5000iu HCG during test e 500mg/week for 10 weeks, and Methanox 30mg first 4 weeks ed. Maybe 250iu every other day??

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaakoppi View Post
    How should split 5000iu HCG during test e 500mg/week for 10 weeks, and Methanox 30mg first 4 weeks ed. Maybe 250iu every other day??
    Read his post it tells you...

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    Ok so let's say 250iu of HCG 2 x week DURING cycle? Then Tamoxifen 40/20/20 after cycle. How about that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaakoppi View Post
    Ok so let's say 250iu of HCG 2 x week DURING cycle? Then Tamoxifen 40/20/20 after cycle. How about that?
    Tamox needs to be 40/20/20/20/20/20.

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    Tamox needs to be 40/20/20/20/20/20.
    That's a lot! I haven't got so much of Tamox. I can run 40/20/20/10. Hope that's enough.

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    Do you have any thoughts on this mate..

    hCG DOSING:

    Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (hCG) is a peptide hormone that mimics the action of luteinizing hormone (LH). LH is the hormone that stimulates the testes to produce testosterone.
    When you take AAS LH levels decline. The absence of an LH signal from the pituitary causes the testes to stop producing testosterone, this causes you're testes to shrink
    Based on studies with normal men using steroids, 100iu hCG administered everyday was enough to preserve full testicular function without causing desensitization/saturation associated with high doses of hCG.
    A more convenient alternative to the above recommendation would be a thrice weekly shot of 250iu hCG, or possibly a twice weekly shot of 500iu. However, it is most desirable to adhere to a lower more frequent dose of hCG to mimic the body’s natural LH release and minimize estrogen conversion.

    The above protocol is by Eric Portaz.

    Another protocol is the blast method, this can be used if for some reason you haven't ran hCG on cycle.
    This is often used towards the end of a cycle and/or the run up to PCT.
    Much higher doses are used, anywhere from 1000iu-5000iu.
    An example would be 2500iu - 5000iu shot 2 x wkly for 4wks.

    I think it's worth pointing out that in clinical studies it was shown that it took a single 10000iu shot to desensitize the leydig cells for 96hrs.


    From my latest research i am now using and advocating the protocol below.
    Here is the science behind this protocol:
    An in vivo injection or an episode of LH secretion induced by GnRH, results in stimulation of the side-chain cleavage enzyme with the subsequent release of testosterone within 30-60 minutes of LH stimulation. The acute response to an injection of LH is dramatic in some species such as the rat and the ram but is much more attenuated in the human. This testosterone response lasts approximately 24-48 hours. If human chorionic gonadotrophin is used as an LH substitute, the kinetics of the initial stimulation are similar to LH but a second peak of testosterone secretion is evidence with hCG and occurs 48-72 hours after the initial injection. This biphasic pattern has been attributed to the observation that between 24 and 48 hours after an LH or hCG injection, the Leydig cells are refractory to further stimulation by either hormone. The second phase of testosterone secretion after hCG but not LH is associated with the longer half-life of hCG in comparison to LH. The hCG levels persist in the circulation and, following recovery from the refractoriness, testosterone levels increase. This observation has significant clinical importance since, in many men, a single weekly injection of hCG will suffice to maintain optimum testosterone responses rather than the frequent practice of giving injections of hCG two to three times per week.

    So, it's better to use around 1000iu E5-7D.
    Do not ask me for a source check.






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    Quote Originally Posted by 007 View Post
    Do you have any thoughts on this mate..

    hCG DOSING:

    Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (hCG) is a peptide hormone that mimics the action of luteinizing hormone (LH). LH is the hormone that stimulates the testes to produce testosterone.
    When you take AAS LH levels decline. The absence of an LH signal from the pituitary causes the testes to stop producing testosterone, this causes you're testes to shrink
    Based on studies with normal men using steroids, 100iu hCG administered everyday was enough to preserve full testicular function without causing desensitization/saturation associated with high doses of hCG.
    A more convenient alternative to the above recommendation would be a thrice weekly shot of 250iu hCG, or possibly a twice weekly shot of 500iu. However, it is most desirable to adhere to a lower more frequent dose of hCG to mimic the body’s natural LH release and minimize estrogen conversion.

    The above protocol is by Eric Portaz.

    Another protocol is the blast method, this can be used if for some reason you haven't ran hCG on cycle.
    This is often used towards the end of a cycle and/or the run up to PCT.
    Much higher doses are used, anywhere from 1000iu-5000iu.
    An example would be 2500iu - 5000iu shot 2 x wkly for 4wks.

    I think it's worth pointing out that in clinical studies it was shown that it took a single 10000iu shot to desensitize the leydig cells for 96hrs.


    From my latest research i am now using and advocating the protocol below.
    Here is the science behind this protocol:
    An in vivo injection or an episode of LH secretion induced by GnRH, results in stimulation of the side-chain cleavage enzyme with the subsequent release of testosterone within 30-60 minutes of LH stimulation. The acute response to an injection of LH is dramatic in some species such as the rat and the ram but is much more attenuated in the human. This testosterone response lasts approximately 24-48 hours. If human chorionic gonadotrophin is used as an LH substitute, the kinetics of the initial stimulation are similar to LH but a second peak of testosterone secretion is evidence with hCG and occurs 48-72 hours after the initial injection. This biphasic pattern has been attributed to the observation that between 24 and 48 hours after an LH or hCG injection, the Leydig cells are refractory to further stimulation by either hormone. The second phase of testosterone secretion after hCG but not LH is associated with the longer half-life of hCG in comparison to LH. The hCG levels persist in the circulation and, following recovery from the refractoriness, testosterone levels increase. This observation has significant clinical importance since, in many men, a single weekly injection of hCG will suffice to maintain optimum testosterone responses rather than the frequent practice of giving injections of hCG two to three times per week.

    So, it's better to use around 1000iu E5-7D.
    Interesting, thanks for posting.
    Curious to see swifto's answer.

    In regard of HCG, do you know its half life?
    And is there any half life difference if injected via IM or sub-q?

  12. #12
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    Larger inital doses may needed to kickstart the testes if testicular atrophy has set in. Then down to normal 250-1000ius shots.

    Other than that the article is good.

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    Got a packet of 5 x 1500iu amps of hCG

    so if I use the 1500iu amp crack it open and add the solvent without directly pouring it on the powder. next swirl for a little bit then draw in the syringe and place in a sterile vial

    I worked it out as a 1500iu amp with 3ml of bac water to receive a hCG dose of 250iu per .5ml injection is this correct

    I used this
    https://www.steroidscouts.com/hcgcalc.html




    how many days will hCG last when reconstructed?

    do I keep them in the fridge once reconstructed?

    how long does it last unconstructed, is it until the best before date?

    should I keep the unconstructed stuff in the freezer?

    big thanks

  14. #14
    The vial my HCG came in is super tiny, i doubt 10ml of bac water will even come close to fitting.... what should i do? also what syringe do i use to take out 10ml bac water? my syringes are only 3ml unless i just keep refilling it lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by PK-V View Post
    Got a packet of 5 x 1500iu amps of hCG

    so if I use the 1500iu amp crack it open and add the solvent without directly pouring it on the powder. next swirl for a little bit then draw in the syringe and place in a sterile vial

    I worked it out as a 1500iu amp with 3ml of bac water to receive a hCG dose of 250iu per .5ml injection is this correct

    I used this
    https://www.steroidscouts.com/hcgcalc.html




    how many days will hCG last when reconstructed?

    do I keep them in the fridge once reconstructed?

    how long does it last unconstructed, is it until the best before date?

    should I keep the unconstructed stuff in the freezer?

    big thanks
    All this is in this thread somewhere mate.

    45 days once mixed. Keep it refridgerated.

    The unmixed powder can be kept at room temp in a dry, dark place.

    Quote Originally Posted by SoFloTC View Post
    The vial my HCG came in is super tiny, i doubt 10ml of bac water will even come close to fitting.... what should i do? also what syringe do i use to take out 10ml bac water? my syringes are only 3ml unless i just keep refilling it lol
    Get more syrniges and barrells. AR-R sells all you need.

  16. #16
    I started my cycle today, 2nd cycle,

    1-10 500mg Test E 2 shots weekly
    Got Tamox for my PCT

    I only have 5000iu's of HCG.. i want to take 250x2 shots a week.. this will only last me though up to 45 days (6 weeks) before it starts going bad...? so when should i start the HCG? with my first test shot or should i wait and start week 4 so it goes through week 10 at my last shot so then my testes are for sure running by my pct time?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SoFloTC View Post
    I started my cycle today, 2nd cycle,

    1-10 500mg Test E 2 shots weekly
    Got Tamox for my PCT

    I only have 5000iu's of HCG.. i want to take 250x2 shots a week.. this will only last me though up to 45 days (6 weeks) before it starts going bad...? so when should i start the HCG? with my first test shot or should i wait and start week 4 so it goes through week 10 at my last shot so then my testes are for sure running by my pct time?
    Start week 4.

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    Hey Swifto, have you ever thought about running a PCT with toremifene, tamoxifen and clomiphene all together?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BJJ View Post
    Hey Swifto, have you ever thought about running a PCT with toremifene, tamoxifen and clomiphene all together?
    That would be overboard mate.

    The reason we want to use a SERM is because they exert ER antagonism at the hypothalamus. All SERMs do that, whilst some of their effects differ at the pituitary.

    Tamoxifen and I suspect Toremifene seem to sensitise the pituitary to GnRH from the HP. Its been proven in Tamox and I have seen one paper on Tore increasing sensitivity at the PT in females (I'm not talking about estrogen primiing, that doesnt exist in males)

    Stay with me...

    Some Endo's suggest one SERM (Tamox) is sufficient to cause this ER antagonism and upregulation (if you will) of the PT.

    I prefer to use the combination of Tore/Tamox. You want to use the least possible dose and amount of compounds and get the MOST results. Remember SERMs (especially 1st Gen) arnt particularly good for us either.

    3 SERMs is too much, 2 SERMs works very well and I suspect so would Tamoxifen alone. Although I have recovered in weeks with Tore/Tamox better than either alone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swifto View Post
    That would be overboard mate.

    The reason we want to use a SERM is because they exert ER antagonism at the hypothalamus. All SERMs do that, whilst some of their effects differ at the pituitary.

    Tamoxifen and I suspect Toremifene seem to sensitise the pituitary to GnRH from the HP. Its been proven in Tamox and I have seen one paper on Tore increasing sensitivity at the PT in females (I'm not talking about estrogen primiing, that doesnt exist in males)

    Stay with me...

    Some Endo's suggest one SERM (Tamox) is sufficient to cause this ER antagonism and upregulation (if you will) of the PT.

    I prefer to use the combination of Tore/Tamox. You want to use the least possible dose and amount of compounds and get the MOST results. Remember SERMs (especially 1st Gen) arnt particularly good for us either.

    3 SERMs is too much, 2 SERMs works very well and I suspect so would Tamoxifen alone. Although I have recovered in weeks with Tore/Tamox better than either alone.
    Thank you

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    SWIFTO...

    Hey great read, I have followed a couple of your posts...You sound like you know your stuff... So I am wanting your advice for my next corse please bro???

    I am going to run:

    Weeks 1 - 10 - 400mg Deca.
    Weeks 1 - 12 - 500mg Sus250.

    (I will be injecting the above as: 1ml Sus250 with 2ml Deca every Monday & Thursday).

    The question is after reading your stuff and a load of other blogs, am I going to be right to take the following:

    Weeks 1 - 12 - .25 EOD of Arimidex.
    Weeks 4 - 14 - 250 iu's of HCG (3 times a week).

    WAIT 18 DAYS FROM LAST SUS JAB, THEN:

    1st Week - Take 100mg Clomid + 40mg Nolva.
    2nd Week - Take 50mg Clomid + 40mg Nolva.
    3rd Week - Take 25mg Clomid + 20mg Nolva.
    4th week - Take 25mg Clomid + 20mg Nolva.

    Would really appreciate your help & anyone else's.

    Many thanks.
    Last edited by meat&2veg; 08-13-2010 at 12:01 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by meat&2veg View Post
    SWIFTO...

    Hey great read, I have followed a couple of your posts...You sound like you know your stuff... So I am wanting your advice for my next corse please bro???

    I am going to run:

    Weeks 1 - 10 - 400mg Deca.
    Weeks 1 - 12 - 500mg Sus250.

    (I will be injecting the above as: 1ml Sus250 with 2ml Deca every Monday & Thursday).

    The question is after reading your stuff and a load of other blogs, am I going to be right to take the following:

    Weeks 1 - 12 - .25 EOD of Arimidex.
    Weeks 4 - 14 - 250 iu's of HCG (3 times a week).

    WAIT 18 DAYS FROM LAST SUS JAB, THEN:

    1st Week - Take 100mg Clomid + 40mg Nolva.
    2nd Week - Take 50mg Clomid + 40mg Nolva.
    3rd Week - Take 25mg Clomid + 20mg Nolva.
    4th week - Take 25mg Clomid + 20mg Nolva.

    Would really appreciate your help & anyone else's.

    Many thanks.
    That sounds fine. I would start the HCG at week 1 or 3 the latest, I'd prefer week 1.

    Dont need a frontload of both Clomid and Tamox. Go with Tamox 40mg/ED for the first 5-7 days. Clomid at 50mg/ED the same, then 25mg/ED. PCT should last 5-6 weeks, not 4.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swifto View Post
    That sounds fine. I would start the HCG at week 1 or 3 the latest, I'd prefer week 1.

    Dont need a frontload of both Clomid and Tamox. Go with Tamox 40mg/ED for the first 5-7 days. Clomid at 50mg/ED the same, then 25mg/ED. PCT should last 5-6 weeks, not 4.
    Cheers Swifto...

    So just to be clear about the PCT. I do start it 18 days after my last jab of Sus?
    But just start how and with what???
    i.e
    Week 1
    Week 2
    Week 3
    And so on till week 6.

    If you can give me the break down of how much of what I should take over the 6 week period please bud?

    Also do you think my stack is good? Sus 250 & Deca...I have had mixed reports about Deca so not sure but I dont really want to take any oral's as its bad for my liver...Plus I dont wanna blow up like a balloon, just wanna get strong and cut with most gains kept.
    I know my diet is key to keeping gains...Just wanted to know if you think anything else would stack nice with Sus 250?

    Many thanks again dude.

  24. #24
    Should I use a specific type of water? or a regular water from the tap??

  25. #25
    My understanding is that HCG, once reconstituted, should be stored in the fridge and will only last around 6 weeks. My clinic sent me a bottle with 11,000ius, even if running 250ius 3 times/week over the six weeks, that's only 4500iu's. What are my storage options or is the rest just going to go bad and not be able to be used on a later cycle.

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    bump

  27. #27
    swifto - if one were running test e 500mg for 9 weeks when is the best time to start hcg? throughout the thread you've said week 4 and other times you said week 1 if at all possible, whats the accurate answer here?

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    Wow brilliant thread.

    Sooo much infomation, would just like to throw out there what i have, and if anythings wrong mabey you could fix it?

    week 1-10 test-e 600mg PW
    week 1-4 dbol 40mg ED

    week 1-10 HCG 250IU 2x PW
    week 1-10 arimidex 0.25 EOD (Would this be too much?)

    (pheedno PCT)
    week 12-16 arimidex 0.25 ED
    week 12-16 clomid 100mg ED
    week 12-16 nolva 20mg ED

    I finish my cycle and wait 14 days after the last test injection to start pct, i was wondering do i carry HCG through weeks 10-12?

    edit: HCG-PREGNYL is what we want? is there any guides on how to mix it etc?
    Last edited by flexandex; 09-21-2010 at 11:42 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by creactiveprotein View Post
    swifto - if one were running test e 500mg for 9 weeks when is the best time to start hcg? throughout the thread you've said week 4 and other times you said week 1 if at all possible, whats the accurate answer here?
    Its best to start at week 1. But you could start at a later date, but use a higher initial dose.

    Quote Originally Posted by flexandex View Post
    Wow brilliant thread.

    Sooo much infomation, would just like to throw out there what i have, and if anythings wrong mabey you could fix it?

    week 1-10 test-e 600mg PW
    week 1-4 dbol 40mg ED

    week 1-10 HCG 250IU 2x PW
    week 1-10 arimidex 0.25 EOD (Would this be too much?)

    (pheedno PCT)
    week 12-16 arimidex 0.25 ED
    week 12-16 clomid 100mg ED
    week 12-16 nolva 20mg ED

    I finish my cycle and wait 14 days after the last test injection to start pct, i was wondering do i carry HCG through weeks 10-12?

    edit: HCG-PREGNYL is what we want? is there any guides on how to mix it etc?
    Stop the HCG before PCT.

    No need for Arimidex or any AI's during PCT. Estrogen is already low.

    Wait 10-11 days, not 14 days.

    Mixing instructions are on page 1, post #1.

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    awesome thanks swifto.

    so i keep the hcg going in the period between my last jab and PCT?

    about the arimidex thing, that is just what i got from pheedno's PCT, its linked from the beginner cycle sticky as the PCT i should use

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    Swifto,
    I am looking to start my cycle of test enanthate and dbol, followed by pct on clomid and nolva... My question to you is that if i am to take test enanthate for 12 weeks when should i introduce the hcg and what dosages would you recommend.

    My HCG pack comes with 3 bottles full of injectable liquid and 3 bottles full of powder made by Angelini Farmaceutica, s.a. - HCG-lepori 2500 for gonadotrofina via intramuscular. I think the the bottles are 2500iu, will confirm with my supplier/adviser. I have two packs, six bottles...

    Any advice appreciated mate trying to make sure my testicles remain functional.

    Thankyou very much for your time bro
    Last edited by Ca$tro; 09-25-2010 at 11:48 AM.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr_miklos View Post
    could you take a look at this cycle. is it good?

    Cycle:

    V 1-14 : Boldenone 250mg/monday 250mg/thursday
    V 1-15 : testo e 250mg/monday 250mg/thursday

    PCT:

    Week 18-21 Clomid 100/50/50/50
    Week 18-21 Nolvadex 40/20/20/20

    would it be enough if i use hcg at 250ius 2 times weekly. starting at week 1 and stop at week 16? and should i use some AI troughout the cycle? if so what is to recommend and at what dose?

    Stats:

    Age : 28
    Height : 5.9
    Weight : 199
    Bench : 280
    Deadlift : 400
    squats : 340
    Keep the SERMs going for 6 weeks, not 4.

    I prefer Tore/Tamox PCT, but Clomid will suffice.

    Aromasin 10mg/ED or EOD.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ca$tro View Post
    Swifto,
    I am looking to start my cycle of test enanthate and dbol, followed by pct on clomid and nolva... My question to you is that if i am to take test enanthate for 12 weeks when should i introduce the hcg and what dosages would you recommend.

    My HCG pack comes with 3 bottles full of injectable liquid and 3 bottles full of powder made by Angelini Farmaceutica, s.a. - HCG-lepori 2500 for gonadotrofina via intramuscular. I think the the bottles are 2500iu, will confirm with my supplier/adviser. I have two packs, six bottles...

    Any advice appreciated mate trying to make sure my testicles remain functional.

    Thankyou very much for your time bro
    Doses are in post #1.

  33. #33
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    Great thread Swifto. Everything I have seen has always said that hcg was important to prevent testicular atrophy but never explained why testicular atrophy was bad besides having baby nuts, this thread did.

    Also I read another post where you were talking about Naltrexone, do you have any more information about this or is Hcg superior to it?

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    bump just had another read lots of good info here.

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    So as long as the doseing is low one could take it for the entire cycle straight?
    I thought I remembered reading that it shouldn't be used for longer then 3 weeks at a time...
    Just clarifying

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    I'm 43 and running my first cycle that includes test (or any other nut shrinker) and sure am glad I'm running HCG throughout the run of test. I've had these nuts for 43 years, never turned them into raisin's before so sure as heck don't want to do that now if it can be avoided.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Scally MD View Post
    I comment on a separate thread about rhLH. On the thread, I believe I include the following study between hCG and rhLH (Cailleux-Bounacer et al.). One of the primary differences is the half-life, which makes use of rhLH unwieldy and problematic. Interestingly, the abstract following (Handelsman et al.), concludes, "Effective rhLH doping, which relies on a sustained increases in endogenous T, would require much higher and more frequent daily rhLH doses." Add the cost to this and hCG is the hands down choice.


    Cailleux-Bounacer A, Reznik Y, Cauliez B, Menard JF, Duparc C, Kuhn JM. Evaluation of endocrine testing of Leydig cell function using extractive and recombinant human chorionic gonadotropin and different doses of recombinant human LH in normal men. Eur J Endocrinol 2008;159(2):171-8. Evaluation of endocrine testing of Leydig cell function using extractive and recombinant human chorionic gonadotropin and different doses of recombinant human LH in normal men -- Cailleux-Bounacer et al. 159 (2): 171 -- European Journal of Endocrinol

    BACKGROUND: The functional testing of endocrine testis uses extractive human chorionic gonadotropin (ehCG). Recombinant human hCG (rhCG), avoiding any contamination, should replace ehCG. Moreover, a functional evaluation with recombinant human LH (rhLH) would be closer to physiology than a pharmacological testing with hCG.

    METHODS: The study was conducted in normal men. We first evaluated the dose-effect of ehCG on plasma testosterone and estradiol levels, before and after injection of either hCG or vehicle. Secondly, the responses to the optimal dose of ehCG were compared with those of rhCG. Thirdly, we investigated the dose-effect of rhLH, on steroid hormone secretion. LH, testosterone, and estradiol plasma levels were measured after the injection of either rhLH or placebo.

    RESULTS: ehCG induced dose-dependent increases in plasma estradiol and testosterone levels. They respectively peaked at 24 and 72 h after the injection. The most potent dose of ehCG (5000 IU) induced results similar to those observed with 250 microg (6500 IU) rhCG. By comparison with placebo, rhLH induced a significant and dose-dependent increase in plasma testosterone levels 4 h after the injection. Peak response of testosterone to rhLH and rhCG was significantly correlated. rhLH did not induce significant change in plasma estradiol level.

    CONCLUSIONS: In normal men, a single i.v. injection of 150 IU rhLH induces a 25% rise in plasma testosterone levels by comparison with placebo. At the moment, the dynamic evaluation using hCG remains the gold standard test to explore the Leydig cell function. The use of 250 microg rhCG avoiding any contamination should be recommended.


    Handelsman DJ, Goebel C, Idan A, Jimenez M, Trout G, Kazlauskas R. Effects of recombinant human LH and hCG on serum and urine LH and androgens in men. Clin Endocrinol (Oxf) 2009;71(3):417-28.

    CONTEXT: The administration of gonadotrophins is prohibited in sport but the effect in men of recently available recombinant hCG and LH on serum and urine concentrations of gonadotrophins and androgens has not been systematically evaluated in the antidoping context.

    OBJECTIVE: To determine the time-course of recombinant LH (rhLH) and hCG (rhCG) on blood and urine hormone profiles in men to develop effective tests to detect rhLH and rhCG doping.

    DESIGN: Two randomized controlled studies with a 2 x 2 factorial design.

    SETTING: Academic research centre.

    PARTICIPANTS: Healthy male volunteers aged 18-45 years.

    INTERVENTIONS: In the rhLH study, men were randomized into (i) either of two single doses of rhLH (75 IU or 225 IU), and (ii) suppression of endogenous LH and testosterone by nandrolone or no suppression. In the rhCG study, men were randomized into (i) either of two single doses of rhCG (250 or 750 microg), and (ii) suppression of endogenous LH and testosterone by nandrolone decanoate (ND) or no suppression. ND suppression comprised a single dose of 200 mg ND 3 days prior to, and in the rhCG study an additional dose 1 day after gonadotrophin injection.

    MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: Serum and urine hCG, LH, T, T : LH ratio, urine epitestosterone (E) and urine T : E ratio. RESULTS: Neither rhLH dose produced a significant increase in serum or urine LH or T or in the T : E or T : LH ratios regardless of ND-induced suppression of endogenous LH and T. Nor did an even higher dose (750 IU) in three healthy men with unsuppressed gonadal axis. These findings were confirmed with two different commercial LH immunoassays together with adjustment for any influence of urine sediment and dilution. Both rhCG doses produced a steep, dose-proportional increase in serum and urine hCG with increases in serum and urine T and suppression of serum and urine LH, regardless of hCG dose. Serum but not urine T was lowered by ND suppression. The T : LH ratio showed a progressive increase unrelated to rhCG dose or ND suppression, whereas both rhCG and ND suppression minimally increased T : E ratio.

    CONCLUSIONS: Both rhCG doses produce a striking increase in serum hCG and T with suppression of serum LH but, at single doses up to 750 IU, rhLH has no influence on serum or urine LH or T. Effective rhLH doping, which relies on a sustained increases in endogenous T, would require much higher and more frequent daily rhLH doses. Use of LH immunoassays optimized for serum to detect rhLH doping by urine LH measurement requires more standardization and validation and, at present, is unreliable. The T : LH ratio is, however, a useful screening test for hCG doping although its utility requires further evaluation.

    HCG is still king, even against newer more advanced compounds being developed.

  38. #38
    Join Date
    May 2008
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    MA
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    Swifto,

    How do you run your torem/tomax in pct?

    I have both in powder form and will be capping them up myself for my pct of a:

    Test cyp 500/week for 10 1/2 weeks
    Var 80-100mg/day for 9 weeks
    Tren 400mg week last 8 weeks
    I'm also running ghrp-2 and cjc w/o DAC 100mcg 3x/day throughout cycle and pct and beyond.
    I"m also running HCG ~ 300iu 2x/week throughout cycle. Is it better to stop the HCG after the last test cyp shot or just prior to pct?
    Last edited by 40plusnewbie; 10-24-2010 at 06:10 PM.

  39. #39
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    Anywhere...
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    Have a look at my PCT Q&A in that section. Its on page 1.

  40. #40
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
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    Mexico
    Posts
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    Swifto, what is your take on HCG when you're getting TRT ? (yes, no, same dose?)
    Last edited by jimmy79; 10-25-2010 at 10:51 AM.

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