If they are two young, do we still help?

[broncojosh]

I was doing my usual tonight, reading through the new threads, and came across a young AR member asking about using. I did the obvious thing, and yell YOU'RE TOO YOUNG! but after that had come and passed, I didn't know if I should try and help with his questions or not. Do you guys/gals feel like we should help kids that are obviously too young? I felt like I would be condoning his improper abuse of the drug, because of his age, by answering his questions. In the end, I did not answer. How do you guys reply to questions made by kids way to young for juice?

[tryingtogetbig]

good thread!! i'd like to hear if their is a consesus or not. may be that everyone kinda has different opinions on this though....

[VEGETA990]

I'm with you on this one. If they really have to juice, they can read the threads and find their answers. A lot of the threads I have read by some people are parallels of other questions I've read. Then I look at the number of posts they have and it usually says less than 10. just my opinion

[RON]

I would never condone some using too young. However I think it is much worse for them to use Anabolics without knowing how. I personally would tell them not to but if I felt they were going to use anyway I would give them advice so they didn't hurt them self more. just my .02

[tryingtogetbig]

i guess in all rationality, that is the main thing. i would hate for someone to come here looking for help and not get it and hurt themselves.

but, you give advice and it somehow erases any uncertantity they had before and get the courage up and go ahead and do it.

lose-lose situation. look forward to other feedback.

[Canes4Ever]

My take, is that you remember when you were 14-15-16 yrs old? You were stubborn and hard-headed, and knew everything...right?

The kids are going to do it whether we say not too, and probably more willing to if we tell them not too. So, yes, moral dilemna, but like Ron said:

if I felt they were going to use anyway I would give them advice so they didn't hurt them self more.

Bronco, you know I have a great deal of respect for you, and will understand whatever you decide is best.

[hewy]

im 19 and want to start soo bad, i know i can make it until im 20 to start but 21 or 22 i just dont know. and i know it can be hard to tell a 14-16 yr old not to, especially when u dont even know them. hopefully they will run across a guy at thier gym who the respect and he or she can lead them away from jucing at an early age.

[Canes4Ever]

Big Gunz

[MBaraso]

If they actually have the gear in their possesion I'll give them advice because I don't like seeing anyone F themselfs up. Even though taking gear at age 15 & 16 is probably going to F em up anyway. But as far as pointing someone that's too young in the right direction as wear to obtain the gear: I won't do it.

M

[mishon1]

should def start off by telln them they r too young and y they r too young to use AS. if they r still askn then help because they are more than likely goin to use anyway so y not guide them n the right direction with what they need to know. just remember they probably have not done as much research so the implied things to use r not implied to them.

[TNT]

Originally posted by broncojosh
Do you guys/gals feel like we should help kids that are obviously too young? I felt like I would be condoning his improper abuse of the drug, because of his age, by answering his questions. In the end, I did not answer. How do you guys reply to questions made by kids way to young for juice?

First, I addressed the philosophical ethics of this type of situation more comprehensively in the thread on stem cell research. You can find my magnum opus in that thread here.

The ethical perspective I outlined there is much the same when it comes to questions from guys younger than, say, 21 (and yes, it's almost always guys - women at that age are far smarter or, at least, under less social pressure to follow the bulked-up GI Joe ideal). I won't use the word kids because, as Canes correctly noted, when virtually all of us were 16-17-18, etc., we felt the same way - we knew it all, we were really adults, and what the hell did our parents know anyway?

The problem comes in when we use words like help (as in, "Do we help young people use steroids?") or advise. It's a semantic thing, but it always remonds me of something my dad told me when I was a kid. "If you ask for my opinion," he said, "you don't have to follow it. But if you ask for my advice, you've gotta follow it." Doesn't make much sense now, but it occurred to me that there is a difference between opinion and advice.

Therefore, I'm very careful in how I give information to anyone, regardless of age, never saying, "I advise you to......." Because if the other guy takes my advice and screws up, then I'm partially responsible. So, again regardless of age, I speak from the perspective of, "Look, you've got to make your own decision, so here's some information that will help you make an informed, responsible decision."

So, in terms of the questions put to us by young adults, we have the same type of situation as a needle exchange program. If we support such a program, in which drug addicts can bring in their used needles and trade them at no charge for new, sterile needles, it could be construed that we are endorsing drug addiction and abuse. Nonsense. What we are doing is recognizing, without judgment one way or the other, that drug addiction and abuse will occur, and taking a non-judgmental step to help ameliorate infection and the transmission of HIV and other conditions (keeping in mind that addicts often share needles).

Ditto condom distribution in high schools. We are not encouraging sex, nor even implying that we endorse sex. We are, once again, recognizing that high school kids are going to boink each other regardless of all the pro-chastity tap-dancing we might do. So we take an action, again non-judgmental to either position, that will help ameliorate the possibility of unplanned or unwanted pregnancy and the transmission of HIV and other STD's.

Now, let's take a very real example to look at the question at hand: Do we help/advise/give information to someone who is too young to be doing AS?

I need someone from the audience . . . Ah, you, sir - yes, the young man in the second row who's panting at the sight of the Ttokkyo poster up on the wall. What is your name, please?

"D00fy."

Okay, let's all welcome D00fy. (Everyone says together, "Hi, D00fy!" And, because they think this is a 12-Step meeting, half the audience adds, "Thanks for sharing!")

Y'all still with me? In the next few minutes, we learn that D00fy is 18 years old, and that he has a proverbial shitload of questions about AS. We do our "But you're too young!" rap, and D00fy continues to pound our ears with questions, act like a hurt puppy if he feels flamed (before he gets hip, admits that he's a newie, and toughens up a bit). And despite our best efforts, he makes it fairly clear that, regardless of the usual warnings, he is absolutely, positively, most definitely going to do a cycle.

D00fy, in short, has become like the high school kid who's not going to listen to the chastity rap. He has become like the guy who isn't about to heed, "Just say no," which is why we have needle exchanges. Regardless of how much we try to encourage him not to do AS until he's older and his natural growth and developjmental processes have stopped on their own, we ultimately have no control over what D00fy himself will decide.

So do we give advice? Past the point of saying, "I think you're too young, bro," the answer is no. Because if our advice is followed, we share responsibility.

So do we continue to give information? Hell, yes. Because anything that D00fy can get from us will provide him with a little more understanding of what he obviously doesn't understand enough yet. We don't endorse his use, nor do we encourage it - in fact, we can make it very clear that we feel he should not be juicing at this stage of the game. But knowing that he will ultimately make his own decision, and that he will ultimately be responsible for his actions, we can help ensure that he is as equipped as possible to act responsibly if he chooses to do so.

Now, if he decides to juice, wil D00fy fuck up? Maybe yes, maybe no. But if it's yes, he will hopefully fuck up less than he would if we did not answer his questions.

There are, of course, limitations. I would not recommend or refer him to a source. But as readers who have PM'd me have found out, I would not recommend or refer anyone to a source. I wold never recommend that he should do something, unless it's something non-AS related (such as seeing a doctor if he has symptoms of a medical condition). I would never suggest adding something to a cycle, as in, "Well, D00fy, if you're going to do test, you should add Clomid." (At that point, I have made a positive suggestion, and I bcome responsible. And D00fy, don't read anything hidden here. I am probably one of the few people on this board that doesn't recommend Clomid - to anyone.)

End of our example. Thanks for helping us out, D00fy! You can sit back down now. Here's a biscuit. (Sorry, bro, but it's the name. Sounds like a Disney character.)

Anyway, I trust you get the point. Whether we like it or not, we will always have guys asking us questions that are under the recommended age for anabolic steroid use. But we have to realize that, while we cannot endorse their use, many of them will end up doing a cycle. Just as many of us would end up doing a cycle if we were still their age and knew what we kinow now. Because when you're that age, you are invincible! Well, at least you think you are. Just as we thought we were at that age.

The other factor is that we cannot always tell a person's age. I still remember our good bro Terinox's original apearances here at A.R. He never told us his age, he simply asked questions. And after we got to know our hairy friend from Canada, we then found out that he was just heading into college. Would we have answered his original questions differently if we had known he was ony 18? Yes, we possibly would have. And on one hand, he would have had the opportunity to hear, "Hey, bro, we think you're too young right now." But he may not have had the opportunity to have his questions answered. And which of the two priorities is more important? Neither - they are equally important.

Finally, this is an anonymous board. We sign on with pseudonyms, we list only the personal profile information with which we are comfortable, and we protect our identities because of both the nature of the board's subject matter and the general notion that there are psychos out in cyberspace. Ultimately, we do not know the age of a person who posts a question. It could be 28, it could be 18, or it could be 12. Under normal circumstances, we could not legally counsel a 12-year-old without a parent's approval. But if a 12-year-old comes on this board anonymously and says that he is 25, how do we know the difference? The answer is that we don't.

But you'll notice that, in the last paragraph, the key word I used was counsel. Because to an extent, that's what we are asked to do. Our goal must be to avoid the notion that we are counseling someone to use AS, that we are advising someone to use AS, or that we are doing anything other than sharing information. Remember, the ultimately responsibility for AS use rests with the person who picks up the syringe or opens the bottle of tablets. Don't use any wording that would shift the responsibility away from the individual user.

I'd like to thank our talented assistants for the day. Let's have a big A.R. round of applause for D00fy! (Mad clapping and cheers.) And give it up for Terinox! (Applause and cries of, "Woof! Woof!")

Class is dismissed. See you next week.

[rubig100]

All of my friend started when they were 16 years old. they didn't know anything and so they knida fucked up a few times. Now they know what to do and are getting great gains. now they r 20.
I learned alot from their mistakes but it would of been better if they could of gotten some good advice.

[broncojosh]

After giving this a lot of thought tonight, I think I may have an answer for myself. Should I answer a question by someone that isn't ready? If I have the knowledge and experience to give them an informed answer, then I probably should. I think we can definatley still give information, while keeping a non-condoning attitude. Making the non desired side affects an important part of that explination. I know that when I was 17, I looked at steroids as this miracle drug, that would make me bigger, faster, stronger, and that was it. It wasn't until I really did the research, that I realized all the health risks and hard work involved in getting those desired affects. I think we, as a responsible community, have to be very careful in how we address the questions of our younger members. As long as we don't promote steroid use, and act simply as a source of information, then we are acting responsibly, and morally.

[Big Rush]

once again tnt, well put. my opinion on the whole matter is: "yes, we should give them advice. that advice should be first do a search, second you are too young and third, if you are going to do it regardless, do it like this..."
Peace

[Canes4Ever]

Originally posted by TNT
First, I addressed the philosophical ethics of this type of situation more comprehensively in the thread on stem cell research. You can find my magnum opus in that thread here.

TNT has done it again, someone should compile his responses and make it the Holy Book of A.R.

<chanting>

omus sanctum angus dei

[Canes4Ever]

Originally posted by broncojosh
After giving this a lot of thought tonight, I think I may have an answer for myself. Should I answer a question by someone that isn't ready? If I have the knowledge and experience to give them an informed answer, then I probably should. I think we can definatley still give information, while keeping a non-condoning attitude. Making the non desired side affects an important part of that explination. I know that when I was 17, I looked at steroids as this miracle drug, that would make me bigger, faster, stronger, and that was it. It wasn't until I really did the research, that I realized all the health risks and hard work involved in getting those desired affects. I think we, as a responsible community, have to be very careful in how we address the questions of our younger members. As long as we don't promote steroid use, and act simply as a source of information, then we are acting responsibly, and morally.

Very well put Bronco, you did answer your own question, but I'm glad you put it up for us, because for those that read the thread it was (and still is) an interesting moral question.

[tryingtogetbig]

TNT, very nicely stated. I hope everyone takes time to read your thoughts on this. They are very enlightening.

[Terinox]

FUCKEN BEAUTIFUL POST!!!



TNT, you never cease to amaze me!!!

Great post, great advice! And I just love the saying your father made!!!

[ROIDS4LIFE]

You guys that won't help are ****ing idiots IMO. People need information to make informed decisions, depriving anyone of information is absurd. One may feel inclined to encourage a young athlete to wait untill they are older but we can't decide for them.

[rambo]

Gotta love threads getting bumped from 2 and a half years ago.

[cb25]

Gotta love threads getting bumped from 2 and a half years ago.

yea...especially by kids that are looking to 'cause ruckus...and get banned within one day wtf?

[caturpilar]

Well maybe this should be a poll? I would say refer them to bro's on the board who are natural, never used AS. There are plenty of good fellas on here who are big and natural. Hell, I'm 26 and still don't plan to use the stuff quite yet and I've been researching this for about a year now.

[pal]

Hey... you gotta give kids like me some gratitude and such because i'm 14 and I love to train naturally, at the moment I see no need to want to do steriods!!

[TheGame826]

great thread
... im 19 and im still thinking hard about starting a cycle. but none the less great thread....

Canes4Ever, i havent been on the boards as much, but really havent seen to many posts from you lately. good to finally be seeing your posts again.

[Dude-Man]

i don't help unless it looks like they're going to anyway..

[Mr. Death]

Getting banned responding to a post that is over a year and a half old. You gotta love it.

[broncojosh]

didn't expect this thread to be coming back. Oh well.

[D00fy]

haha stop bashing me its old news!!!!!!!!!!!!! like 2yrs ago ****it bronco

[daman1]

haha stop bashing me its old news!!!!!!!!!!!!! like 2yrs ago ****it bronco

You bumped a thread from 4 months ago!!!

[D00fy]

oh dam im so stupid that what happens when i stop taking adderoll