For those versed in Westside - assistance work question

[Maverick_J8]

I'm not sure if I'm either not seeing the gains that I should be expecting, or I'm being a little too ambitious. Especially since I'm also on gear year round, and right now 1g test e/600 tren e/100 drol - Coming up to week 4 next Tuesday - I'm thinking I should be seeing more.

Don't get me wrong, Westside is working for me, I know that for sure. I've managed to increase my bench 1rm by a total of 15kilo (33lb) in the last 3 month or so. 8 weeks of that I was cruising on 250mg/wk test.

Should I be happy with this kind of progress? What kind of gains should I be expecting, lets say every 6 weeks?

it seems I increased my max as soon as I switched from bodybuilding to powerlifting, then stagnated, and since starting my current cycle increased slightly again. I haven't really managed to gain much in between, except an extra rep here and there.

Can I keep my assistance lifts the same every week, so long as I'm changing up the ME lift every 2-3 weeks? Or will this affect my progress by becoming accustomed and stagnating?

I'm 5' 9", currently 205lbs (little water weight in there i'm sure), and current bench max of 305lbs. I want to hit 315 within the next 5 weeks, and long term hit 160kg (350lb) by end of next year; preferably without having to gain any more bodyweight.

[BgMc31]

What kind of gains are you expecting? 33lbs is pretty damned good. Also, what Westside template are you using? Are you incorporating bands and/or chains into your workouts or are you just using the DE/ME split?

[Maverick_J8]

The numbers are good, I agree, but I was expecting more steady increases over the weeks as opposed to phases.

I'm using the basic template. My ME and DE workouts are as follows:

ME lift - Work up to 3 sets at or above 90%. The usual ME lifts alternated every 2-3 weeks.
Heavy dumbbell rows or barbell rows - 4 sets of 5
Rear dumbbell laterals 3 sets 10
Light triceps - 2 sets of straight bar push downs 10 reps, 2 sets of rope pull downs 10 reps, 2 sets of one-arm pulldowns 10 reps.

DE lift - 10 sets of 3 reps 50-60% 1RM. 1 min rest between sets. Regular grip.
Heavy triceps - close-grip bench 3 sets of 3 reps
Lying dumbbell extensions 3-4 sets 10 reps.
Lat pulldowns - 3-4 sets 10 reps
Rear delt machine - 3 sets 10 reps


Currently, I'm not incorporating any bands and/or chains. Simply ME/DE split.

[The Toad]

I agree, 33 lbs sounds like a great increase in only 3 months. In my experience strength gains come in waves, at least that is how it has worked for me. I am not an expert but I believe you rotate your accessory exercises as well... keep it fresh.

[Maverick_J8]

From further thought and analysis, I think my problem has to be the working sets on ME lifts.

Example today of my incline ME lift.

Set 1 - 60kg 5 reps
Set 2 - 80kg 3 reps
Set 3 - 100kg 3 reps
Set 4 - 110kg 1 reps
Set 5 - 115kg 1 reps
Set 6 - 120kg fail
Set 7 - 115kg 1 reps
Set 8 - 115kg fail
Set 9 - 110kg 1 reps

Maybe it should of been more like:

Set 1 (warm up) - 60kg 5 reps
Set 2 (warm up) - 80kg 3 reps
Set 3 (90% of 1RM) - 100kg 3 reps
Set 4 (95% of 1RM) 110kg 1 reps
Set 5 (100% of 1RM) 115kg 1 reps.
Maybe one last set 6 the same as set 5?

Done.

Thoughts?

[The Toad]

From further thought and analysis, I think my problem has to be the working sets on ME lifts.

Example today of my incline ME lift.

Set 1 - 60kg 5 reps
Set 2 - 80kg 3 reps
Set 3 - 100kg 3 reps
Set 4 - 110kg 1 reps
Set 5 - 115kg 1 reps
Set 6 - 120kg fail
Set 7 - 115kg 1 reps
Set 8 - 115kg fail
Set 9 - 110kg 1 reps

Maybe it should of been more like:

Set 1 (warm up) - 60kg 5 reps
Set 2 (warm up) - 80kg 3 reps
Set 3 (90% of 1RM) - 100kg 3 reps
Set 4 (95% of 1RM) 110kg 1 reps
Set 5 (100% of 1RM) 115kg 1 reps.
Maybe one last set 6 the same as set 5?

Done.

Thoughts?

I see a few things, the first is ME day is not based on percentages of your past max, it is to get to your max that day. Hopefully you end up with a new 1 rep max. the second is I generally end up with somewhere between 7 and 10 sets before I hit that max. And lastly you don't want to leave anything on the table, that last rep should be all that you can put up that day.

One other thing on the accessory exercises, they should be geared toward addressing any weaknesses you have.

There are other guys on here that have a bunch more experience with westside and maybe they can chime in (I would like to know if I am doing something wrong). I have just read a bunch and have been using that info in my training over the last year.

[Maverick_J8]

My approach to sets and weight is based on the 3 working sets at 90% or above rule.

[xxxl83]

.....

[xxxl83]

you may want to scrap that 3 working sets above 90% rule. I mean think about it you took 115kg x 1, 120kg miss, then 115 x 1, 115 kg miss then, 110 kg x 1 thats too much volume at that intensity load.
The other thing is understand that missing a weight isn't all bad, on a lot of misses time under tension is greater than a made lift and that is very important. You know you didn't complete the lift but your body will still reap benefits from it.

Once you miss a weight move on no need to drop the weight just to get in another set. You'll get your volume in with your supplemental work. Plus remember you have a DE day too to make up on volume. Also rotate your assistance exercises every couple of weeks.

I think you you're expecting a lot out of both gear and the program you've made good gains.

Stay Strong,

xxxl83

[Maverick_J8]

Thanks for the valid points.

So going forward, I will change my assistance exercises every 2-3 weeks. For example, I will interchange between heavy dumbbell rows and heavy barbell rows; heavy close-grip bench with heavy lockouts; rear delt dumbbells and rear delt machine; lat-pulldown with maybe pull ups.

I will change my working sets accordingly, and be more aware of over training and CNS fatigue.

I will change my ME exercises every 2-3 weeks and aim to beat my PR each week. If I gain a new PR, I will simply move on to assistance and attempt again next time round.

Hopefully this should give me the more gradual and constant gains in strength that i'm looking for.

My goal is 160kg by end of next year. That's a 20kg increase, and divided by 12 a 1.6kg increase per month on average.

I will also mention, shoulders. I train shoulders and side laterals separately from my bench workouts. I go high intensity, low volume. Usually dumbbell presses for 3-4 sets or seated barbell. I believe in keeping the shoulders strong by hitting them direct.

Shoulder workout example:

seated Dumbbell press
30kg dumbbells 10 reps (warm up)
35kg dumbbells 5 reps (warm up)
40kg dumbbells 5-10 reps

Side laterals
3 sets of 10

Machine overhead press
2 sets of the rack for an easy 10 reps.

[jcp2]

Keep the 3 reps above 90%, that is pretty much the point of ME days if you are doing singles. Nothing else is really done to failure. Also, what exercises are you using, what assistance work are you using. I have done westside, i have other programs to get your bench up that i like better.

[Maverick_J8]

Keep the 3 reps above 90%, that is pretty much the point of ME days if you are doing singles. Nothing else is really done to failure. Also, what exercises are you using, what assistance work are you using. I have done westside, i have other programs to get your bench up that i like better.

What are these other programs that you like better, and what results did they produce?

[Maverick_J8]

That's what I will continue to do, but I will reduce the volume. I will attempt a new PR each time, but if I fail then I will move on to assistance. By doing this I will still be hitting the 3 sets at 90% or above anyway, just with less volume.

ME exercises are close-grip, incline, and pin press to date. However i've joined a new gym with every piece of equipment imaginable so I will also be including floor presses, adjusted pin presses 5-9" from chest, declines, and heavy negatives in a power rack. Probably won't bother with declines much.

Assistance is basic template stuff - see my last response.

Westside seems to be working for me at the moment, so I will continue with it, but would like to hear what else has worked for you.

Since I started this thread, i'm in week 5 of my cycle and have put 3 reps on to my 140kg 1rm and I can now hit an easy 315 for 1. I've reduced calories slightly and i'm around 202lbs. I will transition straight in to a prop/tren/tbol cut after this to bring my weight back down even more an rid the water.

[jcp2]

Be careful with bottom up pin presses if that is what you are talking about, especially low. If you are doing them like you would boards, don't go to high with them, they do not carry over to your bench well imo. The low bottum up pin presses I like, i think they helped me get my bench over 400 the first time, but they are a better supplemental or second exercise then an ME. I would not do declines as well as an ME. regular flats, Inclines, floor presses, 2brd presses, close grips, and flats with small amounts of accomadating resistance if you have it, are what i would stick with.

[Maverick_J8]

Be careful with bottom up pin presses if that is what you are talking about, especially low. If you are doing them like you would boards, don't go to high with them, they do not carry over to your bench well imo. The low bottum up pin presses I like, i think they helped me get my bench over 400 the first time, but they are a better supplemental or second exercise then an ME. I would not do declines as well as an ME. regular flats, Inclines, floor presses, 2brd presses, close grips, and flats with small amounts of accomadating resistance if you have it, are what i would stick with.

You're referring to pin presses starting from a bottom position, i.e. on the pins, and low about 5 inch off the chest, right?

Some start off the pins. Some say to start as normal off the rack then lower to the pins, pause by resting bar on pins for couple of seconds, then press back up.

Which are you referring to? Also where would you suggest putting these if used for assistance/supplementing?

[maxwkw]

Just in general for your consideration. For the westside program to be effective you should know your strength well enough to know when you can push yourself and when it's time to back off a little bit. Missed lifts are more than just frustrating, they can start to cause improper thought processes when going for another big lift. When you go for a PR there should be very little question as to if you are going to get it.

I have found that if I start out light and progress slowly that I end up making better progress.

[jcp2]

Just in general for your consideration. For the westside program to be effective you should know your strength well enough to know when you can push yourself and when it's time to back off a little bit. Missed lifts are more than just frustrating, they can start to cause improper thought processes when going for another big lift. When you go for a PR there should be very little question as to if you are going to get it.

I have found that if I start out light and progress slowly that I end up making better progress.

i agree, i can usually keep my missed lifts under 10 all year. Raw obviously.

[jcp2]

You're referring to pin presses starting from a bottom position, i.e. on the pins, and low about 5 inch off the chest, right?

Some start off the pins. Some say to start as normal off the rack then lower to the pins, pause by resting bar on pins for couple of seconds, then press back up.

Which are you referring to? Also where would you suggest putting these if used for assistance/supplementing?

I do them pretty low sometimes, but i do them as 5 or 8s as a second exercise. Make sure you are doing speed work, these tend to make me slow. I do them bottom up. If i was doing them top down i would usually use boards.