New Blood work HRT and muscle gain -- DHEA-S

[TMan96]

First of all a little about myself since this is a new post. I am 45 years old 5’7 162lbs. I have been on HRT now for about 12 months. First with Androgel, then test cream and about 7 months ago started Test Cyp.

My main goal has been has been to feel better, more alert, and have more mental focus/ less fogy. All of those areas seem to be improving. The other reason for HRT, from my stand point was to gain more muscle. That has NOT been coming like I hoped.

Just got my blood work results today and was looking for some input to the results. Doc was well pleased with all except my E2. The reason my E2 was high was because I have not been taking my Anastrozole for the past 2 months. I had split my Cypionate shots into 2x a week and I wanted to see the results without any AI. Obviously I still need it.

I am only showing my hormones since my liver, blood, urine, all checked out fine.

Current Protocol:
Cypionate - 120mg a week (I have been splitting into 2 shots a week)
Anastrozole - (Have as much as I could ever use, but wondering what recommendations you have for how much I should be taking a week given my levels without)
HCG - (250iu 2 times a week)
Armour Thyroid - 60mg daily
Vitamin D3 – 9,000iu
Zocor – 5mg
Donate Blood every 3 months.

Main questions: Is my DHEA low? Doc didn’t say anything about these, but based on somethings I have seen on the board isn’t ideal to have at a much higher level? Recommendations on where to start back with AI dosing? Any other input welcome.

Blood Test Reading Range
TSH 1.6 uIU/Ml .45-4.5
T4 5.3 ug/dl 4.5-12
T3 uptake 34% 24-39
Free Thyroxine Index 1.8 1.2 – 4.9
Testosterone, Serum 1095 ng/dl 348-1197
Testosterone, Free 35.37 ng/dl 5.00-21.00
Prolactin 11.6 ng/ml 4.0 – 15.2

Estradiol 70.9 pg/Ml 7.6-42.6

Triiodothyronine T3 1033 ng/dl 71-180
Progesterone .6 ng/ml .2 – 1.4

DHEA-S 54 ng/ml 31-701

VIT D 80.3 ng/ml 30.0-100.0
PSA .9 ng/ml 0.0 – 4.0

[TennTarheel]

Hey, quick off-topic question: How do you like Armour?? What kind of difference did it make?

[steroid.com 1]

Your DHEA-S is low because you are injecting Test Cyp far down stream and we talk about it here all the time about back filling the pathways.

Supplementing DHEA and Pregnenolone is something all men should consider when on a TRT protocol.

Try adding in 50mg of both DHEA and Pregnenolone each and every morning and see how you feel.

[TMan96]

Your DHEA-S is low because you are injecting Test Cyp far down stream and we talk about it here all the time about back filling the pathways.

Supplementing DHEA and Pregnenolone is something all men should consider when on a TRT protocol.

Try adding in 50mg of both DHEA and Pregnenolone each and every morning and see how you feel.

Thanks for the input gdevine as always? Couple of quick questions.... just learning about DHEA and Pregnenolone.

Are these supplements that can be found together or do you buy seperate. Can you find in the vitaman section of any of the big box stores? Is any brand better than any other?

Thanks again.
TMan

[steroid.com 1]

In my opinion, the best quality product for both can be purchased by www.lef.org

Just do a search and you will find them...it's what I take.

[TMan96]

Hey, quick off-topic question: How do you like Armour?? What kind of difference did it make?

Hey TennTarheel,

I have been on the Armour for about 2 months now... can't really say I feel any different but it seems to have addressed my thyrioid issues. My TSH was at TSH 5.44 uIU/Ml with a range of .45-4.5. Now it is at 1.6!

I didn't do any bf% before I started.. but I have lost 8 lbs since I started it and I assume it was mostly fat.

[TMan96]

Bump for any input in my thyroid readings. This is my first reading since starting armour.

[steroid.com 1]

At least from the panels presented here your Thyroid is fine.

[HRTstudent]

Your DHEAS is quite low!

I would definitely begin supplementing with it. I don't know exactly why it is so low, but it is. I would think that because of TRT that only negatively effects your DHEA to a small degree. I am almost certain that the primary producer of DHEA is the adrenals.

You need to be careful with DHEA though, as it readily converts to E2 when taken in excess. Personally, if I had DHEA that low I would start at 25mg with breakfast and dinner. Be sure to take it with food since fat helps the absorption dramatically.

I have no experience using DHEA creams, but they're out there. The pills are so cheap though and the "micronized" form you want is readily available from a slew of companies.

[steroid.com 1]

This ---> You need to be careful with DHEA though, as it readily converts to E2 when taken in excess

DHEA does not readily convert to E2 even in excess when taken by pill form...consider the digestion process and first pass effect and it's likely if 5 percent of the formula makes it into the blood stream...at best.

Can it happen?

Yes, but in very rare occasions and not when taken by the correct dosages.

DHEA and Pregnenolone are very important supplements when a man is on a TRT protocol.

[lovbyts]

In my opinion, the best quality product for both can be purchased by www.lef.org

Just do a search and you will find them...it's what I take.

Gdevine, I looked at lef.org not long ago but it seems their pregnenolone is not micronized as suggested in other post. Any issues with that?

In regards to the DHEA from what I remember it's best to get it in lower dose like 25mg and if you need more than that to split it up throughout the day.

[steroid.com 1]

Gdevine, I looked at lef.org not long ago but it seems their pregnenolone is not micronized as suggested in other post. Any issues with that?

In regards to the DHEA from what I remember it's best to get it in lower dose like 25mg and if you need more than that to split it up throughout the day.

Correct lovbyts if only looking at LEF.

All of their DHEA product is micronized but not Pregnenolone.

You can find Pregnenolone micronized by the likes of NutriCology; look for Pregnenolone 50 mg Micronized Lipid Matrix 60 Scored Tabs #54810.

Both are a shit load cheaper then a Doc script and I am not so much a believer in gel/cream SQ applications anymore to be honest.

[TMan96]

Thanks for the input guys. I have some DHEA and Pregnenolone now and will see how it goes.

Is Pregnenolone something I should have checked next time I get my BW done, or only the DHEA-S?

Thanks!!

[FONZY007]

Gdevine, I looked at lef.org not long ago but it seems their pregnenolone is not micronized as suggested in other post. Any issues with that?

In regards to the DHEA from what I remember it's best to get it in lower dose like 25mg and if you need more than that to split it up throughout the day.

Why u need micronized form and start at a dose of 25mg twice a day?

[kelkel]

If not micronized the majority of it will not survive the first pass through the liver. Theories range on dosage but you can always go up if needed based on blood work. DHEA is a precurser to T and can effect hormone levels as well as Estrogen a bit. Less is more in the beginning, IMO.

kel

[FONZY007]

If not micronized the majority of it will not survive the first pass through the liver. Theories range on dosage but you can always go up if needed based on blood work. DHEA is a precurser to T and can effect hormone levels as well as Estrogen a bit. Less is more in the beginning, IMO.

kel

Sounds good thanks for feedback

[HRTstudent]

This ---> You need to be careful with DHEA though, as it readily converts to E2 when taken in excess

DHEA does not readily convert to E2 even in excess when taken by pill form...consider the digestion process and first pass effect and it's likely if 5 percent of the formula makes it into the blood stream...at best.

Can it happen?

Yes, but in very rare occasions and not when taken by the correct dosages.

DHEA and Pregnenolone are very important supplements when a man is on a TRT protocol.

A small amount of something that gets into the blood does not necessarily mean it cannot have a profound effect. Consider that estradiol is typically measured on a picogram basis, whereas we are taking DHEA by the milligram. This is a difference of 1 billion times. So, it wouldn't take a lot of this DHEA aromatising to raise E2.

But regardless, there is substantial anecdotal evidence from consumers and practitioners from the widespread use of DHEA over the last 2 decades that point towards it aggravating gynecomastia as well as being associated with increased estradiol formation.

It's not going to happen to everyone, but it doesn't mean one should be careless. And by no means am I saying we should avoid DHEA.

[lovbyts]

If not micronized the majority of it will not survive the first pass through the liver. Theories range on dosage but you can always go up if needed based on blood work. DHEA is a precurser to T and can effect hormone levels as well as Estrogen a bit. Less is more in the beginning, IMO.

kel

Thank you. Just got back to this side of the forum and I dont get on until evening my time. ^^^ exactly as I understand it also. I'm also still learning. I have been taking DHEA for quite a while but just now switching to micronized due to the above.

[mikzsan]

Sorry to bump this thread, but just have a question...

My DHEA tested low end ..when I took a troche form (ie sublingual) back in 09 it raised my DHEA to optimal but also doubled my E2 and only increased T by 5-10%. Havn't been on it since.. just went to TRT after that..

But after reading that DHEA is pretty essential while on TRT, should I

Try the micronised capsules this time and just deal with any E2 increases by raising AI .

OR

get the cream form of DHEA which would less readily convert to E2 (correct me if im wrong?)


Thanks!

[kelkel]

Neither GD nor myself had great success with transdermal DHEA. It just doesn't seem to absorb well. I'd try the micronized and if worried about it elevating E then go with 25mg instead of 50 and monitor your E. My DHEA-S level jumped up over 150 pts when I added the micronized product. My E jumped up 7-8 pts. This was with no other changes whatsoever and my E runs rock solid steady around 16. In my case I was happy with the elevation.

[mikzsan]

Neither GD nor myself had great success with transdermal DHEA. It just doesn't seem to absorb well. I'd try the micronized and if worried about it elevating E then go with 25mg instead of 50 and monitor your E. My DHEA-S level jumped up over 150 pts when I added the micronized product. My E jumped up 7-8 pts. This was with no other changes whatsoever and my E runs rock solid steady around 16. In my case I was happy with the elevation.

Thanks! Is that 25mg total of the micronized per day?

Also, is the lack of absorption generally something you've heard with others on the net besides just yourself and GD? Ie do you know of more than 2 cases?

My doc actually switched me to cortisone tablets (low dose of course) at one point as he said this would boost up my cortisol (which was lower range but still normal), without the E2 effects....but dhea is sort of a different more upstream pathway, right? So Im assuming its best not to go with cortisol.

[M302_Imola]

OP, when you had the above test run what percent bodyfat were you at? I suspect it was a bit high (~15+) that's why your Estradiol was high as well. I'm sure you're aware but the less fat you have the less amount of estrogen you have floating around.