Sore = Good Workout?!!!

**bass** · 03-11-2010, 08:47 PM

often I hear that if you feel sore the next day means you hit the muscle really good, in other words “got a good workout”. how much truth is to that statement, does sore really mean good workout (assuming your form was correct)?

**virk--** · 03-11-2010, 08:53 PM

Ive heard the same thing, hopefully a vet can shed some truth on this

**Vitruvian-Man** · 03-11-2010, 09:57 PM

sore = over-training.

-VM

**MuscleScience** · 03-11-2010, 10:11 PM

After a couple workouts into a new program one really shouldn't get to sore. The body adapts rather fast. Soreness is not a good indicator of how well the workout is. Rather as VM said it is more likely an indicator of over training or poor nutrition.

**bass** · 03-11-2010, 11:23 PM

man that sucks! because i get sore every time i workout. so what's this thing about what Arnold said, no "pain no gain"! what pain is he talking about?

**MuscleScience** · 03-11-2010, 11:33 PM

Some soreness is ok, but what we are really talking about is excessive soreness or prolonged soreness which is typically pathological in nature. (overtraining)

**bigslick7878** · 03-11-2010, 11:40 PM

Originally Posted by bass

man that sucks! because i get sore every time i workout. so what's this thing about what Arnold said, no "pain no gain"! what pain is he talking about?

During the workout you are going to feel some pain as you are tearing the muscle fibers apart, if you don't you probably need to step it up a notch. I know I feel it all the time during the workout.

The day after you should not really be sore at all if you workout regularly.

Unless it is after a leg day, seem to feel it the day after no matter what!

**bass** · 03-11-2010, 11:43 PM

then based on what you are saying i maybe overtraining, I’ve been doing the same routine for two weeks and still get sore for 2-3 days, very sore! i actually don't feel it the same day, and the next day is mild then the third day is very intense soreness, then it tapers out. i do 4-5 sets on most of my workouts, i'll try to increase the weights and do less sets and see if this can improve. also like to mention, i am on a high protein low carb low fat diet, 300/100/50, could this be because i am not taking enough carbs?

**Twist** · 03-12-2010, 01:36 AM

bass bro we had this convo a long time ago about your chest(I believe). You were overtraining. Your diet definitely has a lot to do with it. You are knocking down your building but not providing the right materials to build it back up. this is why most say gaining muscle on a cutting diet is very difficult. Post up your routine. on a cutting diet I would recommend a 20-30 minute workout and 45minutes of cardio. be in the gym for about 1.5 hours and you will be pushing the limit. there are many other factors that you might be ignoring. I think a typical workout for you should look like this:
chest - decline db press, 3 sets choose your reps; flat db press, 3 sets choose your reps; incline pulley flyes, 2 sets 16 reps
biceps - flat bar curls, 3 sets choose your reps; seated or incline curls, 3 sets choose your reps
then cardio. that might even be pushing it. really just go into the gym, lift a little (one set can easily be enough sometimes) and then go do cardio. I know that you will feel like you are not doing shit, but it really helps.

**stevey_6t9** · 03-12-2010, 05:47 AM

Originally Posted by MuscleScience

Some soreness is ok, but what we are really talking about is excessive soreness or prolonged soreness which is typically pathological in nature. (overtraining)

wouldnt the soreness that progresses a training day be lactic acid build-up?

**gunslinger2** · 03-12-2010, 07:56 AM

Not sure about this one. I have certain parts such as arms and shoulders that almost never get sore. On the other hand my chest gets very sore every time I work it. Does this mean that my diet is only poor on chest day? Also I'm not one of those guys that does 20-30 sets for chest. Most of the time its 10-12 sets tops. My legs also get sore often even if I only do a few sets. I can do two sets on the bench and my chest will be sore for days.

This might be a bit old school but I really think if you hit a muscle hard enough to make it grow you are gonna be a little sore. If you are not maybe you need to mix up your workout a little.

**6ft5** · 03-12-2010, 08:41 AM

As for me, I get soar the day after the day. 100 carbs I don't think will do much for building muscles. Even at 300pro and 300 carbs is a bit of a slow gain. 100 carbs = 400 cals I burn more than that taken a dump. Lol! You need a bit of carbs for fuel and recovery. Imo peeps should recover from workout in bout 5-6 days, that way you can kill it on day 8.. I like to be ready for my next weekley body part. When u change up your workout, I'd expect about 30 day aclamation.

**6ft5** · 03-12-2010, 08:55 AM

Also, for me when I think Im overtrain. Its a bit of a diffrent feeling I get soar but when I move its a bit of a sharper pain, and moving aroung will make me a bit more tierd than usual like a lactic acid burn. And my shoulder have a little more of a flatter look.

**LatissimusaurousRex** · 03-12-2010, 10:35 AM

Overtraining is a word thrown around TOO much. Just cause you're sore you're not necessarily overtrained. Delayed onset muscle soreness (DOMS) is actually a bit of a phenomenon. The REAL cause of it isn't even known to this day.

However, IMO it's obvious that if you are sore, you F-ed that shit up, good job! You'll know if you're overtraining if you're lifts go down or are plateaued for quite some time. Don't read too much into the DOMS. For me it's common for after a day of leg training it feels like I had a rough night in prison.

**MuscleScience** · 03-12-2010, 10:58 AM

Originally Posted by stevey_6t9

wouldnt the soreness that progresses a training day be lactic acid build-up?

No, lactic acid is responsible for the immediate discomfort during exercise. Lactic acid doesn't not build up in muscle as once thought many years ago. If lactic acid builds up and is not neutralized by the buffeting systems in the blood, cell death can occur. Is can be cause by lack of blood flow such as in a heart attack. When the blood flow is disrupted to the heart muscle metabolites such as lactic acid build up and cause the cells machinary to shut down and eventually death to the cell if blood flow is not quickly restored.

The most current literature on muscle soreness describes the presence of soreness as a response to muscle fiber micro trauma which causes an inflammatory response which facilitates the growth and repair process by bringing in more blood and nutrients. Pain is a protective mechanism that is a consequence of the inflammatory process and is nessiccary process to help protect the muscle as it's being repaired.

In my professional opinion and experience, over-training is probably more prevalent that most people know. Simply because over-training doesn't have to be a systemic response. It can be body part specific, such as the chest. When you think about how many exercises some do for chest and then for legs they can be the same number.

**bass** · 03-12-2010, 11:42 AM

this is getting really interesting and confusing as hell! i don't lack energy, in fact i can't wait to hit the gym, and BTW my gym is in my garage. i feel like can lift more but my shoulder joints limit me, i know my muscles are strong and they feel like a rock when i flex, not sure if this means anything though...

what LatissimusaurousRex said is what i have heard all my life, and thought the idea of training is to tear the muscle fibers so they can grow during recovery. I hit the same muscle every 5 days, I tried to rest longer but there was little progress. now keep in mind, I’ve only been lifting for about a year or so, never before, and like an idiot I trained hard without reading how to, and ended up injuring both my shoulders. is it possible that my muscles are still weak to do intense training, and could it be that fact that I am 50 has anything to do with it?!

Twist, I will post my routines tonight.

**JasonT** · 03-12-2010, 12:02 PM

soreness is not an indicator of anything...progress is the only indicator.

Soreness could be due to lack of stretching/proper nutrition post-exercise or a number of other factors (i.e. lack of conditioning, over training, etc.).

**bass** · 03-12-2010, 12:26 PM

Stats,

50 year old
196 pounds
BF 20% or so
bmr=1840

here is what I eat daily, perhaps i may need to take some vitamins as well!

**phat_matt85** · 03-12-2010, 01:30 PM

I would make the london broil your last meal, the cottage chesse is good as a last meal but not the chicken

**bass** · 03-12-2010, 01:41 PM

you are right, i actually do that but haven't corrected it on my list. but the question is, if the diet is okay, can we assume that its not the diet that makes me sore for few days?

**Twist** · 03-12-2010, 06:08 PM

My chest will grow better with one set than it will with 12... my arms however will not respond to one set at all. I would post up the routine and add which muscles give you trouble. further if the joints limit you there are ways around that that we can discuss if the time arises. I am assuming we are talking about the chest...? Age is a big factor, I would not consider putting someone who is 50 on the same regimen as someone who is 18.

**bass** · 03-12-2010, 08:35 PM

Twist, did you see my diet posted above?

Here is my workout schedule, i switch between C and D

**stevey_6t9** · 03-12-2010, 09:31 PM

Originally Posted by MuscleScience

No, lactic acid is responsible for the immediate discomfort during exercise. Lactic acid doesn't not build up in muscle as once thought many years ago. If lactic acid builds up and is not neutralized by the buffeting systems in the blood, cell death can occur. Is can be cause by lack of blood flow such as in a heart attack. When the blood flow is disrupted to the heart muscle metabolites such as lactic acid build up and cause the cells machinary to shut down and eventually death to the cell if blood flow is not quickly restored.

The most current literature on muscle soreness describes the presence of soreness as a response to muscle fiber micro trauma which causes an inflammatory response which facilitates the growth and repair process by bringing in more blood and nutrients. Pain is a protective mechanism that is a consequence of the inflammatory process and is nessiccary process to help protect the muscle as it's being repaired.

In my professional opinion and experience, over-training is probably more prevalent that most people know. Simply because over-training doesn't have to be a systemic response. It can be body part specific, such as the chest. When you think about how many exercises some do for chest and then for legs they can be the same number.

good point, i shud have known that one. yeah the pH of cells is extremely important and if homeostasis isnt achieved the cell will die.

it is confusing however how professional athletes take ice baths, regular massages and other procedures to reduce soreness from which they cite to be lactic acid buildup.

i did find a good articel regarding to the possible explanations of DOMS however... and they are

1) Structural damage from high tension
2) Metabolic waste product accumulation
3) Increased temperature
4) Spastic contracture
5) Myofibrillar remodeling

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/313267-overview

**bass** · 03-12-2010, 11:49 PM

Stevey, thanks for the article, i read it but didn't understand a thing! way over my head, too much science terminologies...i really don't mind the soreness, its satisfying to know that i worked the muscles, i guess what i like to know if it is something to worry about. well i posted my diet and workout schedule above, hopefully its enough information for the pros to find the answer.

**Twist** · 03-13-2010, 01:00 AM

Bass what are your lacking muscles? I am guessing by your pic and your workout it is shoulders and chest, probably legs too but maybe not a big deal for you at this point?
ps. Idk what some of those exercises are... bull balls?

**bass** · 03-13-2010, 01:07 AM

LOL, bull balls! i should have said bull nuts...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLvSbziilmo

**6ft5** · 03-13-2010, 01:12 AM

Have u tried to rehab your shoulders? w maybe sum joint fuel and sum tube bands, massage . Maybe a chiropractor. Nsaid?

**bass** · 03-13-2010, 01:13 AM

well at this point i am not lacking muscles, i just stopped loosing fat even with the diet posted. maybe because i have a desk job and hardly move, but hopefully during summer and longer days working on my property i can shed few pounds. i am not complaining about anything, i was just curious to know if sore is an indicator of your workout quality...but it turned into science rather than just getting a simple answer. I appreciate all the replies though.

**bass** · 03-13-2010, 01:15 AM

Originally Posted by 6ft5

Have u tried rehabing your shoulders w maybe sum joint fuil and sum bands and massage . Maybe a chiropractor. Anti inflamatoris

my shoulders are getting better, i just don't want to push them hard at this point, but a massage will do good for me for sure. what is Joint Fuil?

**Twist** · 03-13-2010, 01:23 AM

You may have stopped losing for the same reason you are getting sore! overtraining. what are the muscles that get sore? big ones or small ones too? Your body might be holding onto fat because it is in starvation mode (or the likes of) and you may be getting sore because your body is not allocating the resources you are giving it to the right things because you are either under eating or overtraining. so what get's sore and do you take breaks in between your workouts, like workout then a day off or maybe cardio only?

**Twist** · 03-13-2010, 01:24 AM

Short answer - sore while you are working out and after you workout = good
Sore the day after you workout or two days after you workout = bad

**unless it is a brand new routine then it is normal to an extent

**MuscleScience** · 03-13-2010, 02:20 AM

Originally Posted by stevey_6t9

good point, i shud have known that one. yeah the pH of cells is extremely important and if homeostasis isnt achieved the cell will die.

it is confusing however how professional athletes take ice baths, regular massages and other procedures to reduce soreness from which they cite to be lactic acid buildup.

i did find a good articel regarding to the possible explanations of DOMS however... and they are

1) Structural damage from high tension
2) Metabolic waste product accumulation
3) Increased temperature
4) Spastic contracture
5) Myofibrillar remodeling

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/313267-overview

All those reasons are currently thought to be plausible reasons for soreness. Lactic acid when viewed from a purely physiologically standpoint would be a very poor canidate for the cause of soreness. On a molecular level lactc acid exists for mere nanoseconds before being buffered under normal conditions. The body would not want reactive hydrogen atoms floating around reacting with other parts of the cell or tissues. So hydrogen and lactate a pumped out of the cell and a simple acid base reaction in the blood buffers the hydrogen atoms and lactate is shuttled to the liver and converted to pyruvate and reused in energy production.

To take an ice bath to reduce lactic acid build up would be counter productive. Since the body would shut down the capillary beds that feed the tissues being cooled down by the ice. This causes less blood flow thus less nutrients are brought in and less waste products are took away.

**6ft5** · 03-13-2010, 11:20 AM

Originally Posted by bass

my shoulders are getting better, i just don't want to push them hard at this point, but a massage will do good for me for sure. what is Joint Fuil?

Well I couldn't spell last night. I meant joint fuel. I have a broke knee cap, torn rotar, lower back gets jacked up sometimes. There are sum good sups online. I take glucosamine, chondroitin, hyaluronic acid. Also msm and glucosamine.. Hyaluronic is suposeg to help rebuild damaged joint tissue??? I feel pretty good considering how jack I am. It helps me a lot.

**bass** · 03-13-2010, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by Twist

You may have stopped losing for the same reason you are getting sore! overtraining. what are the muscles that get sore? big ones or small ones too? Your body might be holding onto fat because it is in starvation mode (or the likes of) and you may be getting sore because your body is not allocating the resources you are giving it to the right things because you are either under eating or overtraining. so what get's sore and do you take breaks in between your workouts, like workout then a day off or maybe cardio only?

Twist, i think you are right, i have been pushing really hard lately. so I’ll adjust my workout schedule and see if there will be any improvements.

6ft5, thanks for the info, i take some of the stuff you've mentioned, but will give Joint Fuel a shot.

**americanoak** · 03-13-2010, 03:31 PM

The way it works for me when getting sore is...

if i have worked out the body part consistantly then it will usually just be just a little bit sore the next day, but gone by the day after. Sometimes, not sore at all.

If I hardly workout the body part (cause I tend to be lazy with some parts) then it gets very sore when i lift with it.

If i have been training a body part consistantly and then switch up the routine a bit I will be a little more sore than usual, due to the fact that my routine was switched and I was probably hitting the muscle in ways it isnt used to or at slghtly diff angles, make that particular part of the muscle sore.

The way i look at it is, if you workout a body part on a regular basis it rly shouldn't be getting that sore after every workout, if you never workout it out then itll be very sore the first couple times you do it and will eventually adapt, and if u switch up your routine for a regularly worked out body part then it will be a little more sore than usual, but not as sore as if you never rly workout that part.

I dont think the soreness i am feeling that i explained above is over trainging.
If you are very sore every time you hit a body part you probably are over training, or you are just veryy intense in the gym, and if so, then aain you are probably overtrainging.. and by very intense i mean like light headed, throwing up, looks like you got out of the shower cause your so sweaty, intense.

**bass** · 03-13-2010, 03:54 PM

Originally Posted by americanoak

The way it works for me when getting sore is...

if i have worked out the body part consistantly then it will usually just be just a little bit sore the next day, but gone by the day after. Sometimes, not sore at all.

If I hardly workout the body part (cause I tend to be lazy with some parts) then it gets very sore when i lift with it.

If i have been training a body part consistantly and then switch up the routine a bit I will be a little more sore than usual, due to the fact that my routine was switched and I was probably hitting the muscle in ways it isnt used to or at slghtly diff angles, make that particular part of the muscle sore.

The way i look at it is, if you workout a body part on a regular basis it rly shouldn't be getting that sore after every workout, if you never workout it out then itll be very sore the first couple times you do it and will eventually adapt, and if u switch up your routine for a regularly worked out body part then it will be a little more sore than usual, but not as sore as if you never rly workout that part.

I dont think the soreness i am feeling that i explained above is over trainging.
If you are very sore every time you hit a body part you probably are over training, or you are just veryy intense in the gym, and if so, then aain you are probably overtrainging.. and by very intense i mean like light headed, throwing up, looks like you got out of the shower cause your so sweaty, intense.

yea i do sweat allot and on legs day i run out of breath after a heavy set of squats, but normally i do sweat allot. here is another thing i do may be the cause of overtraining, i rest only one minute between each set, and if i am done with chest for example i wait one minute then hit my triceps and so on. so through out the entire one hour workout i only rest one minute between each set.

**americanoak** · 03-13-2010, 04:34 PM

that must be pretty intense, prolly cuts up u nicely. Im dont want to say that you are over trainging, but i guess there is always a possiblity. Sucks that people can actually over train...

like dont train and your fat, train too much and its just as bad as not training.. doesnt make sense to me