Beyond failure techniques? VETS PLZ

[Juicedupmonkey]

Okay so when everyone starts working out they are heavily into drop sets, super sets etc... I was one of those... But I come across Ronnie Rowlands STS training method here : http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...t-to-read-this!

He has a very valid point that doing these beyond failure training methods increase your risk of injury GREATLY and is really not needed yet I see so many people recommend it. I stopped a long time ago doing any of those methods I stick to straight sets only.

Almost all pro/very experienced level bodybuilders and I'm pretty sure just about every powerlifter only do straight sets so why is it that thes methods are being advised again and again when straight sets are much safer and by what Ronnie Rowland has stated they aren't needed at all... I see vets on these forums advising drop sets, supersets etc. As well. Is it just those who have suffered from an injury from doing those methods that are against beyond failure training (Ronnie Rowland) or what's the deal here?

[MuscleScience]

I agree with Ronnie on this point. Beyond failure sets are not worth the risk for two reason. One being the risk of injury and the second is the risk of overtraining. Drop sets are a little different in my opinion in that instead of going to beyond failure with a prescribed weight. The sets are performed at a level that the muscle can still physiologically handle in that it can still recruit enough motor units to perform the exercise. This also depends on the exercise. I am not sure I would ever recommend someone do a drop set of dead lifts or overhead presses for example. The risk of injury is extremely high.

When thinking about exercise choice. It is wise to consider the risk vs benefit of each. Is the relative risk of injury worth the relatively small advantage to beyond failure?

[Cousinbutch]

Jay Cutler, Phil Heath, Branch Warren, Dexter Jackson, (don't know about Dennis Wolf) and Ronny Rockel, so 5/6 of the 2010 Mr Olympia finalist all utilize beyond-failure techniques. Not sure where you came up with that theory.

[Juicedupmonkey]

I agree with Ronnie on this point. Beyond failure sets are not worth the risk for two reason. One being the risk of injury and the second is the risk of overtraining. Drop sets are a little different in my opinion in that instead of going to beyond failure with a prescribed weight. The sets are performed at a level that the muscle can still physiologically handle in that it can still recruit enough motor units to perform the exercise. This also depends on the exercise. I am not sure I would ever recommend someone do a drop set of dead lifts or overhead presses for example. The risk of injury is extremely high.

When thinking about exercise choice. It is wise to consider the risk vs benefit of each. Is the relative risk of injury worth the relatively small advantage to beyond failure?

Yes Ronnie had said you should only go to good failure, anything beyond that is putting more stress on the tendons and the muscle has already stopped firing efficiently. Same with the drop sets putting that extra unwanted stress on those joints/tendons. I just don't get why anyone knowing it's greatly increasing injury would do them!?!? I saw Marcus advising drop sets in someone elses thread in the workout section, thats what made me decide to make this thread.

I had figured it was only the not so experienced ones doing those types of beyond failure methods but apparently not.
Then you said musclescience it depends on the excersizes that are being performed such as say something more simple like bicep curls would be best to do them? Or tricep pushdowns? Would you advise someone to do it for something like that?

[Cousinbutch]

Bad form, weights that are too heavy for your joints (regardless of if the muscle can handle them), lack of warm up and lack of stretching are what cause the injuries. Techniques that allow you to go beyond failure are a way to do maximum amount of work, while avoiding the strain of heavy weights.

[MuscleScience]

Yes Ronnie had said you should only go to good failure, anything beyond that is putting more stress on the tendons and the muscle has already stopped firing efficiently. Same with the drop sets putting that extra unwanted stress on those joints/tendons. I just don't get why anyone knowing it's greatly increasing injury would do them!?!? I saw Marcus advising drop sets in someone elses thread in the workout section, thats what made me decide to make this thread.

I had figured it was only the not so experienced ones doing those types of beyond failure methods but apparently not.
Then you said musclescience it depends on the excersizes that are being performed such as say something more simple like bicep curls would be best to do them? Or tricep pushdowns? Would you advise someone to do it for something like that?

I should say that I would never advise a multi joint drop set or beyond failure exercise. One reason for injury in a multi joint exercise such as the bench press is the fatigue of the smaller stabilizing muscles versus that of the prime movers.(SIT's muscles verse the Pecs and Triceps) The smaller muscles of the shoulder like the SITS (rotator cuff muscles) fatigue faster and can not produce as much force as the Pecs. This can cause a situation where the joint(shoulder) can be compromised by the lack of stabilization in all planes of motion.

With a single joint exercise such as a bicep curl, less musculature is involved with less planes of motion. Simply flexion and extension of the forearm. Not to say that you should drop set or force rep these muscle with consistency either. I personally only do a drop set once every 4 to 6 weeks.

[Juicedupmonkey]

Here is some replies Ronnie Rowland had said referring to beyond failure methods.

Originally Posted by Juicedupmonkey
Ronnie Is doing drop sets, supersets etc.. The only reason why those are dangerous is because when you lower the amount of
Weight then your form begins to get sloppy which increases the risk of injury. Or is there more to it then your form gets sloppy?.....................

The reason you just mentioned is one factor (form gets sloppy) but there's more-"when your muscles give out and stop firing more strain moves into to the tendons/joints since the muscles are no longer contracting with efficiency. Rest-pause training and forced reps is bad from increasing tendon tears and ruptures. Also, the increased burn from strip sets,etc can cause severe tendonitus.


All forms of training will develop the muscles and the genetically superior will make the most gains regardless of what they do. Still yet, I see no value in using a training method like strip sets that increases the risk for injury and places more demand on the CNS. Go do strip sets on squats and you will get the picture.. Once you are hurt you cannot train. Once your CNS gets burned out you can no longer make good gains. Consistency is the key to muscle growth and staying healthy is a must.

Negatives cause severe muscle damage and they put a tremendous strain on connective tissue. Dorian had to cut his bodybuilding career short from using extreme training methods like negatives. He tore a tricep tendon, he tore his bicep tendon and ripped a pec tendon. Not sure what else!? In short, negatives are just too hard on the body IMO and not worth the risk. You can get the same results by just doing additional straight sets. Stimulate but don't annihilate the muscles, tendons, joints if you want to continue training as you age!

[Juicedupmonkey]

Bad form, weights that are too heavy for your joints (regardless of if the muscle can handle them), lack of warm up and lack of stretching are what cause the injuries. Techniques that allow you to go beyond failure are a way to do maximum amount of work, while avoiding the strain of heavy weights.

I'm going by every video I have seen of a top level bodybuilder they only do straight sets, and the risk that is taken by doing these beyond failure methods it would just be common sense not to do them especially if you are a pro getting a serious injury would definately ruin there chances of competing for a while.

[Cousinbutch]

http://mdtv.*******************.com/...-part-two.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAM6jCLRGOU

I'm not trying to debunk your theory of it being risky, I'm just showing you that pro's do in fact utilize those techniques.

[marcus300]

There isnt one certain training protocol what is considered to be the best, people use different methods because they use what works best for them.

I disagree with your concept and Ronnies but that doesn't mean what Ronnie is doing doesn't work, by no means but with what you have said in your opening post I totally disagree with.Lets take drop setting for example this kind of training recruits and breaks down many muscle fibres and creates hypertrophy in a very short period of time, each time you dropset the poundage you recruit more fibres and create more damage and putting fibres under pressure what would normally be dormant, these stubborn fibres will be stimulated and be forced to grow , the end result is more damage fibres to repair and to grow bigger,this kind of intense training builds thick dense muscle bellies and creates over all size and mass.

You don't drop form for weight, you don't perform sloppy reps you implement an intense training method to force growth by over loading your muscles fibres, you also need to warm up correctly this may well include 3-4 sets prior to the working sets but one thing is for certain you don't implement this type of training method if you don't know what your doing.

I see guys in the gum watching me train and I also see them following me trying to do the same but all I see is guys getting injured because of poor form,sloppy reps and using to much weight what they really need to do is wacth and learn and understand how to implement these methods in a safe way. I also dont know were you got no pro's use this method! I would take another look.

If you want extreme size you sometimes need to go to extreme measure unless your an easy gainer, ive tried straight sets but in all honestly I grow more tissue with intense training methods like drop setting so that's what I implement in a safe and controlled way, but most of all listen to your body.

[Juicedupmonkey]

So Marcus you would say that doing drop sets with proper form and no sloppy reps is okay. But what about other methods like rest-pause. I recall that is how Ronnie Rowland injured one of his bicep tendons and are there methods you would advise against?
Another similar example I recall Ronnie giving was say 1 person did 100lbs/8reps barbell curls then 95/8 and then 90/8 doing just straight sets... Then you have another person who does a triple drop set starting at 100lbs/8, 75/8 then 45/8. Who yields the best results? Obviously the first person lifts the most weight over all, So does the person who lifts less weight but performs the triple drop set get the best benefit or as you said Marcus.. "you implement an intense training method to force growth by over loading your muscles fibers"
Ronnies answer would be whoever lifted the most weight would yield the best benefit which makes sense but both ways make sense.
Is there any type of training methods You would advise against Marcus? Like would it be alright in your opinion to do a triple drop set on say decline bench press/squats/curls/abs?? Etc...? Or any other beyond failure method for that matter?

[baseline_9]

I dont like volume...

I prefer intense training like HIT or DC

Once a muscle has gone to failure there is still some left in the negative, always

It all depends what ur training style is

No one is right and no one has the best training style to suit all, it is an indipendent thing


That being said, i would never advise a beginner to use HIT or DC, straight sets with low/moderate volume for a beginner

[oldschoolfitness]

stubbborn muscles sometimes require a different stimulation straight sets do seem to loose their benefit the more experienced a persons muscles become, but then again change of reps or exercises could help so for every door there is another and another complicating things

[Juicedupmonkey]

"Dorian Yates had to cut his bodybuilding career short from using extreme training methods like negatives. He tore a tricep tendon, he tore his bicep tendon and ripped a pec tendon"

When I asked Ronnie Rowland about dorian that's what he had to say, because I did see some videos on YouTube of Dorian Yates training some people and advised them to do negatives for exactly the reason you said baseline. But again it's a risk to benefit ratio as Ronnie Rowland stated doran did suffer bad injuries from those "extreme methods"

[Juicedupmonkey]

In this video posted uptop by cousinbutch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAM6jCLRGOU Phil Heath states he only rests for 30 seconds between sets again is that enough of a rest period for straight sets? I wait 2-3 minutes depending on the muscle. 30 seconds to me would seem to be somewhat like an extended rest-pause... Just you rest a little a longer. In no way could I keep going set after set with only 30 seconds rest my strength would drop so fast if for instance I did 315lbs/8 reps on bench by my third set I'd be down to 185lbs/8 (just an example) just my opinion but that small of a rest time just seems like one long beyond failure method? Does anyone else agree or can anyone here actually operate efficiently with that little amount of rest?

[muscle_dysmorphia]

Almost all pro/very experienced level bodybuilders and I'm pretty sure just about every powerlifter only do straight sets

Where could you have possibly come up with this B.S. from?

Hilarious how you state it as a fact "almost all pro" and then follow up with indecision - "I'm pretty sure" - ha ha ha.

have you ever even watched an entire bodybuilding video??

[Juicedupmonkey]

Where could you have possibly come up with this B.S. from?

Hilarious how you state it as a fact "almost all pro" and then follow up with indecision - "I'm pretty sure" - ha ha ha.

have you ever even watched an entire bodybuilding video??

I was referring to 2 different things there. Bodybuilders and powerlifters I wasn't generalizing the 2 and stating a fact then changing it to "I'm pretty sure"

In the videos I have seen of jay cutler and Ronnie Coleman I have only ever seen straight sets utilized, so I was assuming most bodybuilders would be the same, my mistake.

[marcus300]

So Marcus you would say that doing drop sets with proper form and no sloppy reps is okay. But what about other methods like rest-pause. I recall that is how Ronnie Rowland injured one of his bicep tendons and are there methods you would advise against?
Another similar example I recall Ronnie giving was say 1 person did 100lbs/8reps barbell curls then 95/8 and then 90/8 doing just straight sets... Then you have another person who does a triple drop set starting at 100lbs/8, 75/8 then 45/8. Who yields the best results? Obviously the first person lifts the most weight over all, So does the person who lifts less weight but performs the triple drop set get the best benefit or as you said Marcus.. "you implement an intense training method to force growth by over loading your muscles fibers"
Ronnies answer would be whoever lifted the most weight would yield the best benefit which makes sense but both ways make sense.
Is there any type of training methods You would advise against Marcus? Like would it be alright in your opinion to do a triple drop set on say decline bench press/squats/curls/abs?? Etc...? Or any other beyond failure method for that matter?

Try and understand that there isn't one set way to train for best results, your going to have to try all these training methods and monitor yourself to see which one your body responds best to. Yes I am saying that drop setting with forced to negs is great for me and its been the platform what ive done for many years and for me I simply grow doing some form of HIT training designed to suit my body type and needs. I only implement very intense training when I am on cycle but when I am off or just on HRT I still incorporate this style but dont push beyond failure, I cant comment on Ronnie's injury because I wasn't there and ive no idea what he was doing but injuries are something serious bodybuilding go through and train around, yet again I said listen to your body and adapt a training style what builds the kind of muscle your looking for.

I personally dont like volume training at all, but I know friends who build tissue and look great with this method but its not for me, i much prefer HIT style training and for me when I am feeling 100% and my mind set is to build some serious tissue I implement some serious intense training methods what push me beyond failure because that's what makes me grow more. Nothing is easy with bodybuilding weather that's eating,cycles or training, everything is intense and sometimes we have go through this to be better than the next man.

[paddy155]

Marcus. Would you say that one drop set per muscle group is enough per workout if performed correctly ( warm ups included ) ?
For example, if training shoulders, I usually perform 3 working sets of bbell millitary pess followed by 3 sets of lateral raises. If I decided to use drop sets,would I perform one drop set for millitary press or should I do the same with lateral raises and do both. Would performing both be overtraining IYO ?

[paddy155]

Nothing is easy with bodybuilding weather that's eating,cycles or training.

Very true. Took me a long time to realise this.

[tbody66]

My $.02, I don't understand why you started a thread supporting another person on this boards opinions and asking for other experienced and knowledgable people to disagree and you are like his "voice" when he could talk for himself. I have been using and training others to use drop sets and negatives for almost 20 years and it produces injury free results that, IMO, you could not acheive otherwise. These are not techniques that should be incorporated frequently, but occasionally and controlled. The overall weight lifted through the number of reps/sets is not a proven scientific fact, since the beginning of lifting there are differences of opinions, I remember Arnold's overload training vs Mike Mentzer's high intensity training and people have taken extreme sides supporting one or the other for years, the absolute truth is that they both perform incredible results. I have a preference and so does everyone on this board and everyone who has ever lifted. There may very well be a difference of what one could accomplish on one program over the other but I would wager that it would be far less measurable than most proponents of one or the other would readily admit. I would suggest that two 20 year old males with similar body types, metabolism, training experience and builds could strictly perform the two opposing view training regimens to the best of their ability and be so closely progressed over the same period of time as to not have more than slightly measurable differences.

[Juicedupmonkey]

My $.02, I don't understand why you started a thread supporting another person on this boards opinions and asking for other experienced and knowledgable people to disagree and you are like his "voice" when he could talk for himself. I have been using and training others to use drop sets and negatives for almost 20 years and it produces injury free results that, IMO, you could not acheive otherwise. These are not techniques that should be incorporated frequently, but occasionally and controlled. The overall weight lifted through the number of reps/sets is not a proven scientific fact, since the beginning of lifting there are differences of opinions, I remember Arnold's overload training vs Mike Mentzer's high intensity training and people have taken extreme sides supporting one or the other for years, the absolute truth is that they both perform incredible results. I have a preference and so does everyone on this board and everyone who has ever lifted. There may very well be a difference of what one could accomplish on one program over the other but I would wager that it would be far less measurable than most proponents of one or the other would readily admit. I would suggest that two 20 year old males with similar body types, metabolism, training experience and builds could strictly perform the two opposing view training regimens to the best of their ability and be so closely progressed over the same period of time as to not have more than slightly measurable differences.

I am not trying to be his voice I really respect Ronnie Rowlands advice and training program, Im simply trying to find other peoples opinions on the matter. Since I'm trying to find different thoughts and ideas on the matter would you say that this is wrong? I should be stubborn and blindy listen to everything one man tells me? And I'm not trying to do Ronnies talking for him in his thread he states over and over that only going to good failure should be done. That being said I wanted other VETS advise as to what they think of the matter since Ronnies thread is pretty well a Q&A for not so experienced people and VETS don't comment on Ronnies ideas really in the thread so I figured it's time to start asking there opinions on the matter

[marcus300]

Marcus. Would you say that one drop set per muscle group is enough per workout if performed correctly ( warm ups included ) ?
For example, if training shoulders, I usually perform 3 working sets of bbell millitary pess followed by 3 sets of lateral raises. If I decided to use drop sets,would I perform one drop set for millitary press or should I do the same with lateral raises and do both. Would performing both be overtraining IYO ?

Sometimes I do just one drop set to failure then 2 forced and 2 negs, other times I will incorporate 2 drop sets, warm up sets are just that warm up sets but this could be 2-3 sets pyramiding the weight up until your full warmed up and ready to compete the working set.

Majority of the time I would say I do 2 drop sets, especially on shoulders. The burn from lateral raises is so intense and the focus needed to overhead press drop sets is a required taste but afterwards my shoulders are like barn doors and gorged full of blood, ive added tremendous width by implementing this method but again its something what your going to have to discover for yourself and adjust reps/sets weights to suit your own body type

[paddy155]

Thanks marcus

[MuscleScience]

I think some people should consider that just because someone is a Pro BB doesnt mean they know what they are doing. Genetics, drugs and great coaches in the background, which all the top guys have gives these guys the advantage. I know a friendly exercise scientist that can tell you that a lot of the concepts in BB are pure methodology and are not based on any real science or anatomy.

That is not to say that BB dont know what they are talking about either. There are some very educated ones. But think about the genetic freaks out there. That can eat McDonalds, Cheat on every lift and have the worst form in the world but will be better built than 99% of the people on the planet. Just Saying.

[Ronnie Rowland]

jay cutler, phil heath, branch warren, dexter jackson, (don't know about dennis wolf) and ronny rockel, so 5/6 of the 2010 mr olympia finalist all utilize beyond-failure techniques. Not sure where you came up with that theory.

actually, branch preaches straight sets for gaining the most muscle mass. So does charles glass-"the trainer of champions".

[Ronnie Rowland]

i think some people should consider that just because someone is a pro bb doesnt mean they know what they are doing. Genetics, drugs and great coaches in the background, which all the top guys have gives these guys the advantage. I know a friendly exercise scientist that can tell you that a lot of the concepts in bb are pure methodology and are not based on any real science or anatomy.

That is not to say that bb dont know what they are talking about either. There are some very educated ones. But think about the genetic freaks out there. That can eat mcdonalds, cheat on every lift and have the worst form in the world but will be better built than 99% of the people on the planet. Just saying.

I totally agree with this post by muscle science!

Many of these pro-bodybuilder's (not all of them) use horrific form yet they are still huge and some rarely get injured in the process due to their overly thick tendons, etc. This has to do with genetics and their response to drugs. They would be even bigger and have less joint problems down the road if they used better form.

[Ronnie Rowland]

Sometimes I do just one drop set to failure then 2 forced and 2 negs, other times I will incorporate 2 drop sets, warm up sets are just that warm up sets but this could be 2-3 sets pyramiding the weight up until your full warmed up and ready to compete the working set.

Majority of the time I would say I do 2 drop sets, especially on shoulders. The burn from lateral raises is so intense and the focus needed to overhead press drop sets is a required taste but afterwards my shoulders are like barn doors and gorged full of blood, ive added tremendous width by implementing this method but again its something what your going to have to discover for yourself and adjust reps/sets weights to suit your own body type

Honestly marcus, I could not do drop sets for deltoids if I wanted to as I already burn like crazy with straight sets taken to failure in controlled fashion. I've tried every training method under the sun and figured out it was optimal for size/strength to train each major body part as I would deadlifts or squats (straight sets done heavy as possible using perfect form while allowing plenty of rest time between sets to allow ATP levels to regenerate.

I believe drop sets work, don't get me wrong but not as well as straight sets. I am also convinced it was using drop sets for lateral raises in my youth that caused me to develop bursitus in my right shoulder. Rest pause is even worse IMO as it tears the tendons and can cause them to rupture.

Also, you look great in your avatar!

[Far from massive]

I don't know jack but when I look at people in the gym vs Mr O competitors what I see is that most of the Mr O guys whether doing straight or drop sets may be handling a lot of wieght but in the vast majority of examples (exceptions would be the show off videos some post) I have seen they are using good form and not straining with the wieght. Conversly I see lots of guys at local gyms who are training with wieghts they are unable to handle with good form and they are straining etc the whole way through, doing too many sets, not taking enough time off for recovery etc.

I feel this is probably responsible for the vast majority of the serious injuries encountered, it seems that people reason that if Coleman or Cutler are doing 500 lbs that them doing 350 is not too heavy since they only wiegh 20% less than those guys, these guys need to rememeber most of these guys do 4 things Eat & Use various compounds and supps, Sleep, Train, and support thier sponsor. I just have never been able to understand why someone who works etc. would feel that trying to copy a champion is the road to success, sure we can learn from them but to think that what benefits them will always benefit us is just not good common sense.

I know I am not saying anything new, and I am sure everyone of those guys in the local gym knows that duplicating a Mr O's workout is not the answer, yet the psychological desire to train like a champion is over riding their common sense.

Just my 2 cents.

FFM

[Ronnie Rowland]

Check out this link with Dave Palumbo and Jimmy training their lats. Note how Palumbo uses good form where as pellechia does not!
http://rxmuscle.com/videos/iatrainin...m-in-1997.html