Cardio concerns

[IronClydes]

So, normally, I follow the advice given to me by the fellas on here and do 30-45 minutes cardio 2-3x a week with a heart rate under 130 bpm.

However, I am getting back into an old passion, mountain biking, and the trails I go to are about 45 minutes long and wicked sick....can't keep my heart rate below 150 for most of these rides.

I plan to maintain 1-2x a week of this for cardio...as I love it and it makes cardio so much more enjoyable.

That being said, what is the best plan for making the best of this with minimal muscle loss?

I was thinking 5g leucine pre and post, whey isolate and some carbs pre and post.

Thoughts, advice, suggestions greatly appreciated. I want this passion to help me in bodybuilding, not hinder me....there's gotta be an ideal way to do that?

230, 6', 34, 13% bf, bench 320, squat 435, dead 465.

[Khazima]

High intensity cardio is better for fat loss and muscle maintenance than low intensity cardio. The fat burning and muscle burnings zones are a load of b.s. and what sounds to me like an excuse to walk instead of run for cardio.

I wouldn't worry, just watch yourself get shredded twice as fast

[davidtheman100]

So, normally, I follow the advice given to me by the fellas on here and do 30-45 minutes cardio 2-3x a week with a heart rate under 130 bpm.

However, I am getting back into an old passion, mountain biking, and the trails I go to are about 45 minutes long and wicked sick....can't keep my heart rate below 150 for most of these rides.

I plan to maintain 1-2x a week of this for cardio...as I love it and it makes cardio so much more enjoyable.

That being said, what is the best plan for making the best of this with minimal muscle loss?

I was thinking 5g leucine pre and post, whey isolate and some carbs pre and post.

Thoughts, advice, suggestions greatly appreciated. I want this passion to help me in bodybuilding, not hinder me....there's gotta be an ideal way to do that?

230, 6', 34, 13% bf, bench 320, squat 435, dead 465.

It's tough because there is no way that is going to help you as a bodybuilder...I'd say snack on things while you mountain bike to help...Maybe drink aminos while you bike as well...But for other than health...I can't see why anyone would do cardio anyway...Can get to 5-6% bf without it...

[tempest818]

Dr Layne Norton talks about low intensity cardio actually being bad and slowing down your metabolic rate, especially when done over long periods of time, in one of his vlogs. Not sure how true this is, but why do you guys think his mountain biking, which will definitely be high intensity, will be bad for him?

[davidtheman100]

Dr Layne Norton talks about low intensity cardio actually being bad and slowing down your metabolic rate, especially when done over long periods of time, in one of his vlogs. Not sure how true this is, but why do you guys think his mountain biking, which will definitely be high intensity, will be bad for him?

Also remember that layne norton is a phaggot and a liar... high intensity cardio with heart rate over 130 that's not in short bursts burns much more muscle than low intensity cardio in the same amount of time...

[tempest818]

really ? interesting....is this specific to an enhanced lifter at a much lower bodyfat? or even your average joe shmoe at 25% bf.

jesus, i can choke the chicken at 160 how do you do cardio below 130? again, not being a smartass, this is just interesting.

[davidtheman100]

really ? interesting....is this specific to an enhanced lifter at a much lower bodyfat? or even your average joe shmoe at 25% bf.

jesus, i can choke the chicken at 160 how do you do cardio below 130? again, not being a smartass, this is just interesting.

By doing low intensity cardio...Walking..Yes walking...And at a slow pace...If your HR is over 130 while you're walking 2. something mph you have problems already lol..But again as i've said other than for health i can't see a reason anyone would ever need to do cardio if you can fairly easily get in single digits without it...

[RangerDanger830]

Getting off topic from the OP's question but I would like to add that cardio does increase muscle mass hands down assuming you adjust for a higher caloric need.

I say again, shown time and time again as well, cardio is known to increase muscle synthesis. But don't take my word for it, I'll give you a high school version of why.

Your muscles need energy in order for the myoproteins, specifically the motor proteins, to perform muscle functions. This energy comes from a source in the blood stream whether it's glucose in the cytoplasm being cleaved into three carbon chains of acetyl coenzyme A or lipids carried by albumin in our blood. We have energy options here.

So you need more than sugar for energy, we need O2. The oxygen we breathe, which is about 21% of the open air we inhale, goes into our oropharynx or nasopharynx and into the trachea. Down down down into the bronchi the air flows until it reaches the bronchioles which introduce the air now to the alveolar sacs.

In these alveoli there are venules and capillaries where oxygen enters the blood and co2 and h2o exit. So, that's how O2 gets to the blood. From there it finds a red blood cell and attached itself to hemoglobin inside. This is a protein carrier. It carries it to your muscles, gets used via aerobic respiration then it's products are sent back to be exhaled.

So why does cardio make your muscles grow? Because regular cardio increases mitochondria content. This means there are more mitochondria to convert energy faster for our muscles so they can work harder.

In addition to that, cardio also increases blood flow. As the muscles start to adapt to needing more energy they will grow and expand their vasculature, particularly capillaries. This means more blood vessels to carry O2 in and more Hb and albumin.

A lot of muscles are unbelievably fatigue resistant with sufficient blood flow. Cardio fixes that. There are dozens of studies of this showing an overwhelmingly supported hypothesis.

The myth that cardio kills gains stems from guys who are either too lazy or they don't know their diet well enough to adequately adjust their TDEE then wonder why they lost weight.

[davidtheman100]

Getting off topic from the OP's question but I would like to add that cardio does increase muscle mass hands down assuming you adjust for a higher caloric need.

I say again, shown time and time again as well, cardio is known to increase muscle synthesis. But don't take my word for it, I'll give you a high school version of why.

Your muscles need energy in order for the myoproteins, specifically the motor proteins, to perform muscle functions. This energy comes from a source in the blood stream whether it's glucose in the cytoplasm being cleaved into three carbon chains of acetyl coenzyme A or lipids carried by albumin in our blood. We have energy options here.

So you need more than sugar for energy, we need O2. The oxygen we breathe, which is about 21% of the open air we inhale, goes into our oropharynx or nasopharynx and into the trachea. Down down down into the bronchi the air flows until it reaches the bronchioles which introduce the air now to the alveolar sacs.

In these alveoli there are venules and capillaries where oxygen enters the blood and co2 and h2o exit. So, that's how O2 gets to the blood. From there it finds a red blood cell and attached itself to hemoglobin inside. This is a protein carrier. It carries it to your muscles, gets used via aerobic respiration then it's products are sent back to be exhaled.

So why does cardio make your muscles grow? Because regular cardio increases mitochondria content. This means there are more mitochondria to convert energy faster for our muscles so they can work harder.

In addition to that, cardio also increases blood flow. As the muscles start to adapt to needing more energy they will grow and expand their vasculature, particularly capillaries. This means more blood vessels to carry O2 in and more Hb and albumin.

A lot of muscles are unbelievably fatigue resistant with sufficient blood flow. Cardio fixes that. There are dozens of studies of this showing an overwhelmingly supported hypothesis.

The myth that cardio kills gains stems from guys who are either too lazy or they don't know their diet well enough to adequately adjust their TDEE then wonder why they lost weight.

There is no myth that cardio kills gains because it 100% kills gains when it's high intensity for a good period of time. Has nothing to do with adjusting TDEE...It's much easier to lose muscle than to gain it....When your glycogen stores are depleted and your heart rate is continuously over 130 for an extended period of time after that your body will reach to muscle for energy and it will be more muscle lost than can be covered for by just adjusting your tdee for that day lol


But honestly though, good luck in your future endeavors and i hope you experience great cardio gains....Keep sticking to those studies too because i'm sure that's what got every bodybuilder who never went to college started in their route to getting 20+ inch arms...

[Khazima]

There is no myth that cardio kills gains because it 100% kills gains when it's high intensity for a good period of time. Has nothing to do with adjusting TDEE...It's much easier to lose muscle than to gain it....When your glycogen stores are depleted and your heart rate is continuously over 130 for an extended period of time after that your body will reach to muscle for energy and it will be more muscle lost than can be covered for by just adjusting your tdee for that day lol


But honestly though, good luck in your future endeavors and i hope you experience great cardio gains....Keep sticking to those studies too because i'm sure that's what got every bodybuilder who never went to college started in their route to getting 20+ inch arms...

And where did you get that info from? thought it up yourself from a few theories? A bigger bro told you it?

HIIT has actually been shown, properly not just anecdotally or passed down from the biggest bro at the gym, but shown in real world accumulated evidence to be superior to low intensity cardio for fat loss. Your don't just suddenly lose muscle from being in a deficit for too long, otherwise all the intermittent fasters who do cardio fasted would lose all their gains, right?

It can be covered by upping your TDEE if your intent is to do the cardio and still make gains, otherwise you can eat a little more on a diet or take the extra burned calories into consideration in the deficit.

again, where on earth did you get your information?

Also, how is layne a 'phaggot and a liar'? he has a wife and shows data and evidence towards his claims as well as proving them himself and with his clients? (his natty status being another story, although it's reasonable to believe he is natural).

[RangerDanger830]

Why such a hate response David? Someone pee in your cereal?

I could now lecture of fat storage and breakdown but it doesn't seem like it's going to help you so I'll just say this:

Your body burns fat stores for a very very long time before it really starts catabolizing muscle. Never mind people taking further steps to guard against it such as a cycle and pre-loading yummy things like grape flavored BCAAs.

What the hell do I know though.

[RangerDanger830]

And where did you get that info from? thought it up yourself from a few theories? A bigger bro told you it? HIIT has actually been shown, properly not just anecdotally or passed down from the biggest bro at the gym, but shown in real world accumulated evidence to be superior to low intensity cardio for fat loss. Your don't just suddenly lose muscle from being in a deficit for too long, otherwise all the intermittent fasters who do cardio fasted would lose all their gains, right? It can be covered by upping your TDEE if your intent is to do the cardio and still make gains, otherwise you can eat a little more on a diet or take the extra burned calories into consideration in the deficit. again, where on earth did you get your information? Also, how is layne a 'phaggot and a liar'? he has a wife and shows data and evidence towards his claims as well as proving them himself and with his clients? (his natty status being another story, although it's reasonable to believe he is natural).

I was pondering why he would disagree despite not just overwhelming evidence, but the concept behind it being pretty simple and I suppose we both should have clarified. There is a point when our glycogen stores will deplete and we will catabolize fat, it just takes a lot to get there.

Run a marathon, ok, I'll say you're doing more harm than good. 45mins on the treadmill will help more than harm assuming not only an adequate caloric intake, but sufficient amounts of amino acids also.

I felt that was necessary since we've been using cardio vaguely.

[Mr.BB]

So, normally, I follow the advice given to me by the fellas on here and do 30-45 minutes cardio 2-3x a week with a heart rate under 130 bpm.

However, I am getting back into an old passion, mountain biking, and the trails I go to are about 45 minutes long and wicked sick....can't keep my heart rate below 150 for most of these rides.

I plan to maintain 1-2x a week of this for cardio...as I love it and it makes cardio so much more enjoyable.

That being said, what is the best plan for making the best of this with minimal muscle loss?

I was thinking 5g leucine pre and post, whey isolate and some carbs pre and post.

Thoughts, advice, suggestions greatly appreciated. I want this passion to help me in bodybuilding, not hinder me....there's gotta be an ideal way to do that?

230, 6', 34, 13% bf, bench 320, squat 435, dead 465.

You are overthinking this.

Go and have fun with your mountain biking!

[Khazima]

I was pondering why he would disagree despite not just overwhelming evidence, but the concept behind it being pretty simple and I suppose we both should have clarified. There is a point when our glycogen stores will deplete and we will catabolize fat, it just takes a lot to get there.

Run a marathon, ok, I'll say you're doing more harm than good. 45mins on the treadmill will help more than harm assuming not only an adequate caloric intake, but sufficient amounts of amino acids also.

I felt that was necessary since we've been using cardio vaguely.

P.S. Good to see you Ranger!

[Mitch535]

The point that you guys are arguing about is called the Aerobic Threshold. The Aerobic Threshold is the point at which your body runs out of available oxygen to produce ATP and goes anaerobic. To quote the allmighty wikipedia:

"The aerobic threshold (AeT) is sometimes defined as the exercise intensity at which anaerobic energy pathways start to operate and where blood lactate reaches a concentration of 2 mmol/litre (at rest it is around 1). This tends to be at a heart rate of approximately 20-40 bpm less than the anaerobic threshold and correlates with about 65% of the maximum heart rate. As its name suggests, the anaerobic energy system does not utilize oxygen to create Adenosine triphosphate (ATP) and uses glycogen/glucose."

Improving your cardio is to say that you are improving your aerobic threshold, which means your muscles can go further, longer, and work harder before going anaerobic. This is important even for lifting, because the more oxygen your body can carry to the muscles, the harder and longer you can lift and the faster you will recover. This is why HIIT works so well, the higher intensity is similar to doing cardio and over time increases the aerobic threshold.

[RangerDanger830]

P.S. Good to see you Ranger!

Good to see you too.

The point that you guys are arguing about is called the Aerobic Threshold. The Aerobic Threshold is the point at which your body runs out of available oxygen to produce ATP and goes anaerobic. To quote the allmighty wikipedia:

"The aerobic threshold (AeT) is sometimes defined as the exercise intensity at which anaerobic energy pathways start to operate and where blood lactate reaches a concentration of 2 mmol/litre (at rest it is around 1). This tends to be at a heart rate of approximately 20-40 bpm less than the anaerobic threshold and correlates with about 65% of the maximum heart rate. As its name suggests, the anaerobic energy system does not utilize oxygen to create Adenosine triphosphate (ATP) and uses glycogen/glucose."

Improving your cardio is to say that you are improving your aerobic threshold, which means your muscles can go further, longer, and work harder before going anaerobic. This is important even for lifting, because the more oxygen your body can carry to the muscles, the harder and longer you can lift and the faster you will recover. This is why HIIT works so well, the higher intensity is similar to doing cardio and over time increases the aerobic threshold.

Thank you for the contribution Mitch but no, aerobic threshold is not the main topic of discussion here. It is a sub-topic and a very relevant one and I will explain why and why it isn't the main concern here. First I do want to say that the OP will be plenty fine mountain biking without fearing muscle loss. I would recommend casein and BCAAs beforehand.

What we are essentially discussing here is whether or not cardio helps or harms lean muscle mass gains. The truth is that if done within reason it helps boost LMM anywhere from 5-15% based on the studies I have seen on the subject. Even without the studies I have an expert understanding of human metabolism and can tell you that cardio is beneficial.

You are right about the aerobic threshold Mitch, well, wikipedia is anyway. Props for at least admitting using wikipedia. This is also referred to as the metabolic threshold. I will say wiki should clarify on something, our cells are never truly aerobic or anaerobic. There is always a combination of the two during exercise.

An interesting side note. We produce roughly two ATP per molecule of glucose in anaerobic metabolism (Cori Cycle) and 38 molecules of ATP per molecule of glucose in aerobic metabolism (Kreb's Cycle), although the number is thought to be 30, 38 being an ideal situation.

The reason why our metabolic threshold should not be the focus of this discussion is because muscle atrophy does not readily occur so long as there is plenty of glucose stored in our body. Although if we are burning a large amount of calories and/or burning calories over a long period of time then glycolysis will not be enough to keep up, then muscle degradation may occur. The same is true if you are not taking in enough glucose during the recovery process afterwards. This is why I say it is diet dependent.

Whether you have crossed over the metabolic threshold of not does not matter much in the way of muscle breakdown because both aerobic and anaerobic metabolism still break down the saccharides into the pyruvate molecules.

What Mitch is saying is true, is does improve your cardio-respiratory function and therefore muscle function and growth. Although within reason the specific lack or presence of oxygen does not determine whether your body breaks down liver and fat stores or not.

[RangerDanger830]

I would like to add that the presence of amino acids in our diet is just as important as having glucose as well. A pretty common detail I overlooked.

And I hate when people tell someone they are overthinking it on here. What? You want them to underthink it? Those are the same people complaining about an abundance of idiots in the world. Overthink everything, maintain the high standard and thirst for knowledge.

[davidtheman100]

And where did you get that info from? thought it up yourself from a few theories? A bigger bro told you it?

HIIT has actually been shown, properly not just anecdotally or passed down from the biggest bro at the gym, but shown in real world accumulated evidence to be superior to low intensity cardio for fat loss. Your don't just suddenly lose muscle from being in a deficit for too long, otherwise all the intermittent fasters who do cardio fasted would lose all their gains, right?

It can be covered by upping your TDEE if your intent is to do the cardio and still make gains, otherwise you can eat a little more on a diet or take the extra burned calories into consideration in the deficit.

again, where on earth did you get your information?

Also, how is layne a 'phaggot and a liar'? he has a wife and shows data and evidence towards his claims as well as proving them himself and with his clients? (his natty status being another story, although it's reasonable to believe he is natural).

"It's reasonable to believe Layne is natural" ???? U serious man??? 5'10" 200 lbs shredded on stage??? GRAMS OF GEAR MY FRIEND...A LIAR....He wouldn't go on stage a POUND over 180 if he was natural...His whole following is a joke and they listen solely on the fact that he has a PHD...He also takes advantage of the American judicial system and sues people for feeble things...Funny for someone with a wife and family but to not consider others with a wife and family when he sues them for feeble shit...Enough about Layne unless i really have to elaborate further...


Bottom line this exercise he is proposing is 100% detrimental towards his bodybuilding career...We are not talking shorts periods of time going fast...And then short periods of time getting heart rate back down...We are talking the FULL TIME this his heart rate high which is most likely going to happen with a big fella on a bike...

That extra upping of your TDEE will not suffice as i've said. When you burn muscle during a workout...Adjusting your calories towards the ones you lost working out is only covering you for that individual day towards building muscle...while that bullshit track-type workout just ****ed you over more than 1 day...Don't believe me that's fine....You'll continue to get in the way of your goals...What the bigger guys/competitors say will always sit with me better than what some doctor who doesn't give a shit about the bodybuilding cult's study says...

[RangerDanger830]

Who the hell is this Layne guy anyway?

[davidtheman100]

Who the hell is this Layne guy anyway?

Bodybuilder/powerlifter/scientist(LOL) he charges thousands of dollars for contest prep and then he tells people not to buy supplements but he sells supplements and tells people to buy them....People pay him big money because they believe he can help them get shredded at high bodyweights naturally...When in fact he was never natural...He credits his 700+ deadlifting to science/research/technique saying it was all done natural...Going on stage 5'10" 200 lbs shredded 4%bf as science/research/technique and says he did it all natural...And people think he's some type of miracle worker so they pay him thousands of dollars for his services and then end up getting fvcked over....He is the DEFINITION of scum in this industry..But plenty are on his jock-strap because they're uninformed..

[Mitch535]

I would like to add that the presence of amino acids in our diet is just as important as having glucose as well. A pretty common detail I overlooked.

And I hate when people tell someone they are overthinking it on here. What? You want them to underthink it? Those are the same people complaining about an abundance of idiots in the world. Overthink everything, maintain the high standard and thirst for knowledge.

And thank you for your response and I'm glad you cleared that up.

You are right, we should overthink everything. And it is these types of discussions that make us all more intelligent, and the reason why I joined this forum in the first place.

[Khazima]

Who the hell is this Layne guy anyway?

Would recommend looking into his research, plenty of useful data and studies done over time (not on himself) with some of the other leaders in protein and strength training research.

[tempest818]

hmm,,,, so do the rest of you agree that low intensity is bad and slows your metabolism if done over long period of time as stated by layne? so many contradicting views, i wish you guys would be the same towards me running a cycle at 22. kidding.

[RangerDanger830]

hmm,,,, so do the rest of you agree that low intensity is bad and slows your metabolism if done over long period of time as stated by layne? so many contradicting views, i wish you guys would be the same towards me running a cycle at 22. kidding.

I'd have to read his position and research before commenting on that. I'll get around to it. Then we can shift the debate to agreeing or disagreeing with this Layne guy it seems.

[tempest818]

its in a youtube vlog of his. says that long periods of steady state cardio slow down your metabolism and he was talking about this in a video where he was dicussing metabolic slowdown in people who diet at extreme sub 1000 calories , workout and do steady state cardio. says your metabolism adapts to the low intake and exercise to where a point would come where youd have to even ower than the caloroes youre at to just not hit a plateau

[tarmyg]

Cardio do not burn muscle, caloric deficit, however, can.

OP: Solid comments from Khazima and RangerDanger830. The other stuff is nonsensical ranting and based on gym-science.

[MuscleScience]

Oh physiology hehe, my specialty.

Something I've studied extensively in my graduate work. Short and simple of it is, cardio when done properly and with proper diet and rest will not kill gains in any form hitt or LILD.

Which is better? Hitt or steady state? Answer seems to be both. Just got back from an ACSM conference, still after 10 years of intense scientific scrutiny, no two physiologist can agree upon which is better. My take is, regardless do the form of cardio that you enjoy and can maintain. I play basketball and do Crossfit for my cardio when I'm doing a show. I can't stand treadmills or elliptical machines. Some people are the opposite.

One show I walked for 45min every morning at 5am because of some knee Issues from basketball. Same results on stage, just do something for cardio that you enjoy.

[davidtheman100]

Cardio do not burn muscle, caloric deficit, however, can.

OP: Solid comments from Khazima and RangerDanger830. The other stuff is nonsensical ranting and based on gym-science.

If anyone is going to call out something being nonsensical it certainly can't be you for obvious reasons ... I'm glad people can all mutually agree that the filth of the fitness cult gives out "good information" which is absolutely laughable because his whole life, following and income is based off of a lie....

While people will have fun calculating everything to the T and wondering how many minutes of cardio they should do at a certain heartrate....I'm gonna go pin my tren ace and make real gains

[Khazima]

Oh physiology hehe, my specialty.

Something I've studied extensively in my graduate work. Short and simple of it is, cardio when done properly and with proper diet and rest will not kill gains in any form hitt or LILD.

Which is better? Hitt or steady state? Answer seems to be both. Just got back from an ACSM conference, still after 10 years of intense scientific scrutiny, no two physiologist can agree upon which is better. My take is, regardless do the form of cardio that you enjoy and can maintain. I play basketball and do Crossfit for my cardio when I'm doing a show. I can't stand treadmills or elliptical machines. Some people are the opposite.

One show I walked for 45min every morning at 5am because of some knee Issues from basketball. Same results on stage, just do something for cardio that you enjoy.

Great post!

[IronClydes]

High intensity cardio is better for fat loss and muscle maintenance than low intensity cardio. The fat burning and muscle burnings zones are a load of b.s. and what sounds to me like an excuse to walk instead of run for cardio.

I wouldn't worry, just watch yourself get shredded twice as fast

Thanks for your input Khazima.

My main concern was protecting myself from being catabolic during these grueling sessions and how to prevent or minimize it.

[IronClydes]

It's tough because there is no way that is going to help you as a bodybuilder...I'd say snack on things while you mountain bike to help...Maybe drink aminos while you bike as well...But for other than health...I can't see why anyone would do cardio anyway...Can get to 5-6% bf without it...

Thanks for your input David. I was thinking of bringing along a few a GU gel pack to ingest for every 15 minutes of riding....but, some Xtend Aminos in the water sounds smart too.

[IronClydes]

Also remember that layne norton is a phaggot and a liar... high intensity cardio with heart rate over 130 that's not in short bursts burns much more muscle than low intensity cardio in the same amount of time...

Not sure I read that right, David. To clarify, you're basically saying that the cardio I'd be doing on my bike (High Intensity, Non-interval) is the worst for your muscles (causes most muscle loss), correct?

[IronClydes]

By doing low intensity cardio...Walking..Yes walking...And at a slow pace...If your HR is over 130 while you're walking 2. something mph you have problems already lol..But again as i've said other than for health i can't see a reason anyone would ever need to do cardio if you can fairly easily get in single digits without it...

Hey David, you say under 130, if you do cardio....but walking for me is about 90....a slow jog is about 125...so, then, would a slow jog be ideal or the walk?

Obviously, the is irrelevant for the biking days, but I am curious as my protocol now is increased cardio for fat loss...

I am already at maintenance calories, 6 weeks off blast, and starting a cycle in 6 weeks.

Currently at about 14-5% and working on getting to 10-12% before that cycle starts with minimal muscle loss.

[IronClydes]

Getting off topic from the OP's question but I would like to add that cardio does increase muscle mass hands down assuming you adjust for a higher caloric need.

I say again, shown time and time again as well, cardio is known to increase muscle synthesis. But don't take my word for it, I'll give you a high school version of why.

Your muscles need energy in order for the myoproteins, specifically the motor proteins, to perform muscle functions. This energy comes from a source in the blood stream whether it's glucose in the cytoplasm being cleaved into three carbon chains of acetyl coenzyme A or lipids carried by albumin in our blood. We have energy options here.

So you need more than sugar for energy, we need O2. The oxygen we breathe, which is about 21% of the open air we inhale, goes into our oropharynx or nasopharynx and into the trachea. Down down down into the bronchi the air flows until it reaches the bronchioles which introduce the air now to the alveolar sacs.

In these alveoli there are venules and capillaries where oxygen enters the blood and co2 and h2o exit. So, that's how O2 gets to the blood. From there it finds a red blood cell and attached itself to hemoglobin inside. This is a protein carrier. It carries it to your muscles, gets used via aerobic respiration then it's products are sent back to be exhaled.

So why does cardio make your muscles grow? Because regular cardio increases mitochondria content. This means there are more mitochondria to convert energy faster for our muscles so they can work harder.

In addition to that, cardio also increases blood flow. As the muscles start to adapt to needing more energy they will grow and expand their vasculature, particularly capillaries. This means more blood vessels to carry O2 in and more Hb and albumin.

A lot of muscles are unbelievably fatigue resistant with sufficient blood flow. Cardio fixes that. There are dozens of studies of this showing an overwhelmingly supported hypothesis.

The myth that cardio kills gains stems from guys who are either too lazy or they don't know their diet well enough to adequately adjust their TDEE then wonder why they lost weight.

Nicely explained, Ranger Danger. Thanks for that.

I am curious what your opinion of an ideal length, intensity, and frequency of cardio is for these purposes?

[IronClydes]

The point that you guys are arguing about is called the Aerobic Threshold. The Aerobic Threshold is the point at which your body runs out of available oxygen to produce ATP and goes anaerobic. To quote the allmighty wikipedia:

"The aerobic threshold (AeT) is sometimes defined as the exercise intensity at which anaerobic energy pathways start to operate and where blood lactate reaches a concentration of 2 mmol/litre (at rest it is around 1). This tends to be at a heart rate of approximately 20-40 bpm less than the anaerobic threshold and correlates with about 65% of the maximum heart rate. As its name suggests, the anaerobic energy system does not utilize oxygen to create Adenosine triphosphate (ATP) and uses glycogen/glucose."

Improving your cardio is to say that you are improving your aerobic threshold, which means your muscles can go further, longer, and work harder before going anaerobic. This is important even for lifting, because the more oxygen your body can carry to the muscles, the harder and longer you can lift and the faster you will recover. This is why HIIT works so well, the higher intensity is similar to doing cardio and over time increases the aerobic threshold.

Thank you, Mitch. What conclusions would you draw with that information as applied to mountain biking at 150 bpm or higher for 45 minutes?

Any recommendations for making the best of this, with minimal risk of becoming catabolic?

[IronClydes]

Good to see you too.



Thank you for the contribution Mitch but no, aerobic threshold is not the main topic of discussion here. It is a sub-topic and a very relevant one and I will explain why and why it isn't the main concern here. First I do want to say that the OP will be plenty fine mountain biking without fearing muscle loss. I would recommend casein and BCAAs beforehand.

What we are essentially discussing here is whether or not cardio helps or harms lean muscle mass gains. The truth is that if done within reason it helps boost LMM anywhere from 5-15% based on the studies I have seen on the subject. Even without the studies I have an expert understanding of human metabolism and can tell you that cardio is beneficial.

You are right about the aerobic threshold Mitch, well, wikipedia is anyway. Props for at least admitting using wikipedia. This is also referred to as the metabolic threshold. I will say wiki should clarify on something, our cells are never truly aerobic or anaerobic. There is always a combination of the two during exercise.

An interesting side note. We produce roughly two ATP per molecule of glucose in anaerobic metabolism (Cori Cycle) and 38 molecules of ATP per molecule of glucose in aerobic metabolism (Kreb's Cycle), although the number is thought to be 30, 38 being an ideal situation.

The reason why our metabolic threshold should not be the focus of this discussion is because muscle atrophy does not readily occur so long as there is plenty of glucose stored in our body. Although if we are burning a large amount of calories and/or burning calories over a long period of time then glycolysis will not be enough to keep up, then muscle degradation may occur. The same is true if you are not taking in enough glucose during the recovery process afterwards. This is why I say it is diet dependent.

Whether you have crossed over the metabolic threshold of not does not matter much in the way of muscle breakdown because both aerobic and anaerobic metabolism still break down the saccharides into the pyruvate molecules.

What Mitch is saying is true, is does improve your cardio-respiratory function and therefore muscle function and growth. Although within reason the specific lack or presence of oxygen does not determine whether your body breaks down liver and fat stores or not.

Again, a great explanation Ranger Danger. Thanks.

So, you prescribe a casein and BCAA's before followed immediately with simple carbs and protein, correct?

By the numbers, say 30g casein and say 7g BCAA's about what, 20 minutes beforehand? 45g simple carbs and 30g whey isolate after?

Does that sound ideal?

[IronClydes]

"It's reasonable to believe Layne is natural" ???? U serious man??? 5'10" 200 lbs shredded on stage??? GRAMS OF GEAR MY FRIEND...A LIAR....He wouldn't go on stage a POUND over 180 if he was natural...His whole following is a joke and they listen solely on the fact that he has a PHD...He also takes advantage of the American judicial system and sues people for feeble things...Funny for someone with a wife and family but to not consider others with a wife and family when he sues them for feeble shit...Enough about Layne unless i really have to elaborate further...


Bottom line this exercise he is proposing is 100% detrimental towards his bodybuilding career...We are not talking shorts periods of time going fast...And then short periods of time getting heart rate back down...We are talking the FULL TIME this his heart rate high which is most likely going to happen with a big fella on a bike...

That extra upping of your TDEE will not suffice as i've said. When you burn muscle during a workout...Adjusting your calories towards the ones you lost working out is only covering you for that individual day towards building muscle...while that bullshit track-type workout just ****ed you over more than 1 day...Don't believe me that's fine....You'll continue to get in the way of your goals...What the bigger guys/competitors say will always sit with me better than what some doctor who doesn't give a shit about the bodybuilding cult's study says...

I appreciate your opinion, Dave. Thanks again.

So, your recommendation is simply to avoid this style of cardio completely, correct?

You are correct in that I will run about 140-160 during this for 30-45 minutes. I would intend to do once a week only.

Even if I pre-loaded with Casein, BCAA's, and followed immediately with carbs and whey isolate....you still see this as detrimental?

[IronClydes]

Oh physiology hehe, my specialty.

Something I've studied extensively in my graduate work. Short and simple of it is, cardio when done properly and with proper diet and rest will not kill gains in any form hitt or LILD.

Which is better? Hitt or steady state? Answer seems to be both. Just got back from an ACSM conference, still after 10 years of intense scientific scrutiny, no two physiologist can agree upon which is better. My take is, regardless do the form of cardio that you enjoy and can maintain. I play basketball and do Crossfit for my cardio when I'm doing a show. I can't stand treadmills or elliptical machines. Some people are the opposite.

One show I walked for 45min every morning at 5am because of some knee Issues from basketball. Same results on stage, just do something for cardio that you enjoy.

So, you support HIIT and LILD, but what about my question, regarding HI non-interval 30-45 min @ 140-160 bpm?

[MuscleScience]

So, you support HIIT and LILD, but what about my question, regarding HI non-interval 30-45 min @ 140-160 bpm?

I wouldn't see it's a problem as long as it's not 7 days a week on low caloric intake and no de load period with your weight routine.

[IronClydes]

I wouldn't see it's a problem as long as it's not 7 days a week on low caloric intake and no de load period with your weight routine.

Thanks MuscleScience.

I train 5 days a week HIT (Marcus-Style), 2-3 days 30-45 min cardio: 2 are low intensity, 1 is the mountain bike session..